Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

Thebest1pj · Sep 27, 2010

L_Cancel said:
Lol Indeed. For some reason that video always comes up when Link Oli is mentioned. xD

Even though I won the set. :< lol

i linked you here lying_cancel

L_Cancel · Sep 27, 2010

shadow1pj said:
i linked you here lying_cancel

xD You were my namesearch. ;3

#HBC | Red Ryu · Sep 27, 2010

Do some stages have a higher percentage of pikmen pull compared to others, like more of one color or another?

Huggles828 · Sep 27, 2010

I've heard that it has to do with the ground Oli is standing on and that, for example, metallic floors give more reds and blacks or something like that, but yeah, is this 1) true, and 2) does this make a big difference in stage selection? Or is this something Olimar players even notice/take heavily into consideration?

Blissard · Sep 27, 2010

Red Ryu said:
Do some stages have a higher percentage of pikmen pull compared to others, like more of one color or another?

There's a whole, long list of them, lol. Standard is 23:23:23:15:15 (red yellow blue white purple). Lylat, Brinstar, Frigate are 20:30:20:15:15 I think, and Delfino had added purples on the beach.

Here's a full, long, aggravating list if you like full, long, aggravating lists:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212786

Edit: Huggles, kinda, Oli picks based on the opponent's weaknesses, and which one's we personally prefer (aka lots of purple+yellows).

#HBC | Red Ryu · Sep 28, 2010

I want to avoid PS1 based on that list. :<

Delfino and cruise help Link in this, cruise is the only reason I got to last stock with Hilt on the AiB ladder.

Yeah all in all from what has been said, either brief or descriptive, 65:35 ot 70:30 Olimar.

This MU is dumb, lol.

IYM! · Sep 28, 2010

Blissard said:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Olimar didn't really have bad stages. They're pretty much neutral for him. An Oli player counter picks stages based on what's bad for their opponent.

Olimar have bad stages, i mentioned this before.

The bad stages for olimar are :

Jungle japes: if he touch the water he will lose all his pikmin (less the blue) and without pikmin he will cant recover, and with the help for the water and our projectiles, we will gimp him easily.

RC: this stage are bad for Olimar, he dont have ledges, so he will depend only for the second jump

port town: if is legal, choose it, the central platform dont have ledges and without his up B, he will fall and hit constantly the road, give him big damage or also the death
another good point of this stage are the machines, they are powerfull, so until the lightest car will kill olimar in low percentages.

vVv Fino said:
DI is dependent on the player, not the character... so idk what that means.

i know that,

i mean if he has good or bad momentum cancel, for example Link have good MC (so he have good DI) Snake don have good MC (so he dont have good DI)

i hope you understand my question now

Dnyce · Sep 28, 2010

Huggles828 said:
2) does this make a big difference in stage selection? Or is this something Olimar players even notice/take heavily into consideration?

O_O yes. haha. For the most part Olimar mains like to CP stages with a higher concentration of purples and yellows since purple pikmin have great kill power / disrupting ability and yellows for the "priority"

Blissard · Sep 28, 2010

Fino didn't you like RC? o.O

I know that someone liked playing Oli on Japes too, but I forget who.

Dnyce · Sep 28, 2010

Blissard said:
Fino didn't you like RC? o.O

I know that someone liked playing Oli on Japes too, but I forget who.

Yeah, I love RC. Hilt is the one who likes japes though, haha.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Sep 28, 2010

You guys weren't kidding about the stage thing. :/

Rizen · Sep 28, 2010

So Link has some tactics, like Nair and well timed sword attacks stopping pikmin, better long range camping (like that matters), Zair, and edge hogging. Brinstar or FD are good CPs, and maybe RC, Delfino and J Japes?
But basically Olimar totally owns this MU with a 30/70 advantage.

IYM! · Sep 29, 2010

i would say 65/35, he also has alot of weaknes, like recovery and light weihgt, but i dont know if he has good or bad Momentum cancel, if id bad, well, that will be another weakness for him

Huggles828 · Sep 29, 2010

We can kill Oli earlier than he can kill us percentagewise but that doesn't mean much when he can rack up damage faster (especially at low damage) and keep us out. Oli outcamps us. Neither of us wants to be off the edge. Definitely 35-65 or 30-70 Olimar's favor.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Sep 29, 2010

I think we got this.

Mario is next, get KirinBlaze in here, nao!, or find the write up he did on this, it was pretty well detailed.

Calebyte · Sep 29, 2010

Lol, Kirin is the guy you wanna talk to. I'm not well versed in this MU. I friendlied Crow for a while at SiiS3, but apart from that I don't have a lot of experience with Link.

HeroMystic · Sep 29, 2010

I doubt this MU changed, even while I was absent from Brawl. Abuse spacing, Link gets gimped, projectiles reflected, etc...

60:40 Mario unless Link got new tricks.

Matt07 · Sep 29, 2010

I love this match-up, so much fun

, I do agree it's slightly in Mario's advantage though.

SKidd · Sep 29, 2010

Link is too slow and his projectiles are ineffective

I'm pretty sure nair can beat arrows and boomerang

HeroMystic · Sep 29, 2010

Slow? Not really. Link can definitely abuse his spacing to keep up with Mario. His jabs in general are good. N-air is good, and U-tilt or (DAC)U-Smash can stop aerial approaches. Interesting mix-ups with bombs can give him the edge as well.

Oh, and the Z-air, that silly Z-air.

Problem with Link is once Mario gets into contact he can dish out heavy damage, and fireball-approaching is often enough to do this. Gimping his recovery is just icing on the cake.

JuxtaposeX · Sep 29, 2010

Needs more KirinBlaze.

Scabe · Sep 29, 2010

I think it's in a slight advantage to Mario, he gimps us fairly easily with cape and FLUDD.

It can be hard somewhat hard to deal with fireballs. He can combo Link fairly well when he gets inside.

Link's projectiles can be hard for Mario as well. My friend would ask me "how do I get through you".

I have one match against Mario: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M76JGudDtd8

thegreatkazoo · Sep 29, 2010

6:4 Mario.

The only way Link wins if he gets in with Zair. Mario needs to space the fireballs smartly and not spam it. Full hop fireball I feel works fairly well.

It also helps that Mario's bair does cancel out Boomerang and arrow (on some strengths), and short hop cape is pretty hard to read for most Links I play.

Best way to gimp from a distance is by using fireball (or @ least even with FLUDD IMHO.) Landing one disrupts the timing Link has, even while holding a bomb. Mario shouldn't be stupid and gimp with bair, it's been known to backfire.

Using bombs wisely may make the MU more bearable though, so perhaps a stage with platforms would help.

And don't miss your pivot throws. Unless you want to eat a fistful of fire. :lick:

/My two cents

Huggles828 · Sep 29, 2010

Mario vs. Link! Two great classics! Too bad they're both low tier characters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZqBaGSNW8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSB7OECn1GU

Here's a couple of vids of WaffleZ playing the matchup.

Link needs to recover smart, and Mario can gimp him pretty effectively, but it's not quite MK gimpage, I don't think. If Link is getting gimped hard he's probably getting outplayed pretty bad anyway. It certainly is an important point for Mario to abuse it and Link to be very wary of it though.

I'm pretty sure Link's nair and jab cancel fireballs, and I know his zair goes through them. Something to note I guess; this doesn't mean fireball approaching is worthless at all though.

Link outranges Mario, obviously. Zair is great for Link. I'm pretty sure Mario has some nice tricks with his fsmash, like pivot boosting and craq walking, that give it great range too though.

Problem with Link is once Mario gets into contact he can dish out heavy damage

Unfortunately this is often true of many of Link's matchups

Link is laggy and has poor out of shield options, so getting is his face is usually a good idea for his opponent.

Rizen · Sep 30, 2010

Gravity's a big element in this MU. Bomb/arrows and Fireballs fall with gravity but Mario's spam is much more dependent on it.
Every move Link has beats fireballs and Link has better disjointed reach. As great as this seems, Link is slow, laggy, and needs set ups or 'momentum' to spam well. Mario has better quick spam that can force Link to try something else and an anti-spam cape.
Mario's faster with a good grab and throws, Link's OoS just sucks and so does his super slow grab.

Mario's the better off stage gimper but Z edge hogging and close to stage interceptions like Nair (which hits all around Link) can gimp well to. Link can attack into FLUDD with Nair/Zair and cancel most of the push-back (attack bubbles cancel some water/firebreath hits) , he can also Dair bounce it from above (not smart). Link's Zair and grab will not be turned by Mario's cap and Link receives damage but no stun. Mario's cap makes projectile gimping hard for Link and off stages interceptions risky.
Bombs and Zair are important to out spam and space Mario because they eat fireballs and can be used in ways that Mario's cape can't defend against.
Mario's speed and adaptability give him the edge in this MU. It's another Link must maintain spacing/opponents tries to break that spacing battle.
What are good Link CPs? Norfair, Brinstar. Maybe Rainbow Cruse?
60/40 Mario.

HeroMystic · Sep 30, 2010

Arizen said:
What are good Link CPs? Norfair, Brinstar. Maybe Rainbow Cruse?

The more space you have the better. So Smashville for neutrals (I don't recommend FD because Link has no margin of error once Mario gets inside), and Norfair or Delfino Plaza for CPs. I'd say Pirate Ship too, but for some reason people don't like that stage anymore.

Also, it's suitable to say Mario can FLUDD bombs and arrows and cancel them out. Not sure about boomerang, though I know it cancels TL's boomerang.

Albert. · Sep 30, 2010

Hey Orion, what's up?

Orion* · Oct 1, 2010

your such a homo lmao

real talk what frame is links grab now that im here i feel like he cant do anything XD

quirkynature · Oct 1, 2010

Frame 11, I think.

A2ZOMG · Oct 1, 2010

Two things:

Mario's Up-smash has invincible head frames. As a result of that and Link's physics, it juggles Link quite well at low percents.

Mario's F-smash can outspace pretty much any predicted melee attack in the game thanks to its generous leanback on charge stance. It's also much stronger than Link's F-smash, so even if Mario isn't gimp focused, a spacing mistake can be very costly against Mario if it gets you killed at around 100-115ish percent.

I don't feel like reiterating anything else that has been said. 6/4 to 65/35 Mario. Norfair isn't legal anywhere, and I think Luigis is also banned in most places as well. Those I think are probably Link's best counterpicks against Mario. Delfino is the next best CP although Mario camps better on that stage.

Huggles828 · Oct 3, 2010

I hate to interrupt the Mario discussion, but I went ahead and redid the matchup chart, but this is pending since I don't want to be the one who ultimately decides the ratios.

Things to note:
1. I went back and looked at the Weegee stuff and it seemed everyone felt it was slight advantage Weegee, so I went ahead and assumed we were going to make it 40:60. That seems to be our favorite ratio anyway, haha.
2. From the Olimar discussion I went ahead and put 35:65. Is this acceptable to everyone? PLEASE tell me if you disagree on either of these matchups; this is only a rough draft and it takes like 2 seconds to change it. We want this accurate.
3. Dark Link just has too many tools against us to keep the matchup 100:0. We still have a solid advantage against him though because we can use fairies in bottles to heal ourselves as well as the Megaton hammer, which he doesn't have, but he suffers heavily from being less cool and more evil than us, as well as being stuck in that freaking room with the tree in it.
4. Other minor changes :D

Also, once we finish up, I think we really need to reexamine a handful of MU's, like Snake, Zelda, ROB, maybe D3, Falco, and MK, maybe Wolf, and probably a few more.

Also, here's a thread on AiB containing some of the bigger Link mains' opinions on his matchups, including Kirin and Deva (fyi for this particular MU, Kirin seems to think Mario is 50:50 and Deva thinks it's 40:60 Mario advantage).

#HBC | Red Ryu · Oct 3, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
Two things:

Mario's Up-smash has invincible head frames. As a result of that and Link's physics, it juggles Link quite well at low percents.

Mario's F-smash can outspace pretty much any predicted melee attack in the game thanks to its generous leanback on charge stance. It's also much stronger than Link's F-smash, so even if Mario isn't gimp focused, a spacing mistake can be very costly against Mario if it gets you killed at around 100-115ish percent.

I don't feel like reiterating anything else that has been said. 6/4 to 65/35 Mario. Norfair isn't legal anywhere, and I think Luigis is also banned in most places as well. Those I think are probably Link's best counterpicks against Mario. Delfino is the next best CP although Mario camps better on that stage.

Link won't die that early under normal circumstances.

Also my experience is limited against Mario other than basic stuff people have posted, he has top tier like gimping. So I'm going to go with what people have posted.

Rizen · Oct 4, 2010

Huggles828 said:
1. I went back and looked at the Weegee stuff and it seemed everyone felt it was slight advantage Weegee, so I went ahead and assumed we were going to make it 40:60. That seems to be our favorite ratio anyway, haha.
2. From the Olimar discussion I went ahead and put 35:65. Is this acceptable to everyone? PLEASE tell me if you disagree on either of these matchups; this is only a rough draft and it takes like 2 seconds to change it. We want this accurate.
3. Dark Link just has too many tools against us to keep the matchup 100:0. We still have a solid advantage against him though because we can use fairies in bottles to heal ourselves as well as the Megaton hammer, which he doesn't have, but he suffers heavily from being less cool and more evil than us, as well as being stuck in that freaking room with the tree in it.

^Those MU's look accurate enough. Except DarkLink. We have solid ways to beat him that vary with the stage. In the Great Palace, if we run to the side of the screen and mash jab he has no option but to jump into it over and over. On the reflection pool room he's smarter. The trick here is to plan ahead and out class him with the big goron sword. If fought right dark Link MUST approach but has no good strategy besides appearing behind us which is easy to counter. Link should always win.

Red Ryu said:
Link won't die that early under normal circumstances.

^Agree. Mario's Fsmash is still a deadly move but not that much. Link has a long reaching Fsmash too, he can DI out of rapid jabs and Fsmash through them. Mario's is much more spammable than Link's.

HeroMystic · Oct 4, 2010

Arizen said:
^Agree. Mario's Fsmash is still a deadly move but not that much. Link has a long reaching Fsmash too, he can DI out of rapid jabs and Fsmash through them. Mario's is much more spammable than Link's.

I'd actually give the F-Smash spam to Link, pending on how you use it. Link's F-Smash has two hits while Mario's only has one. Not only that, but Link can delay the second hit of his F-Smash for mindgames. Mario's F-Smash has better reach due to disjoints, but Link's F-Smash has way more utility.

A2ZOMG · Oct 4, 2010

Red Ryu said:
Link won't die that early under normal circumstances.

Also my experience is limited against Mario other than basic stuff people have posted, he has top tier like gimping. So I'm going to go with what people have posted.

He'll die just fine to a well-placed Up-angled F-smash especially if Mario baits him on the charge stance leanback, which can definitely happen due to Link's low mobility. Uncharged it kills average weight characters at around 90ish if they don't DI, while Link usually gets away with silly KOs at around like...115% when people completely fail to DI his F-smash.

So under the assumption that Mario can charge F-smash to do around 20-21 damage on a bait, it will pretty easily kill even the heaviest characters at around the 110 range with slightly less than optimal DI. Maybe around 90% if Mario say...baits a ledge attack, which I see a lot of Link players do when they are on the edge.

If Mario's Up-smash is fresh and he charges it to do 16 damage (which happens if he does Sliding Up-smashes), that should kill Link at around say 130% reliably should that hit. Although that should rarely be a concern for Link since Mario gets much better use of U-smash for damage juggling.

So my reason for why Mario wins solidly basically comes down to generally having better reward (and good tools) when edgeguarding, KOing, and comboing. While Link has the tools for decent spacing, Mario has more ways of trapping Link into high damage situations, and on a read is actually quite capable of punishing harder than Link.

Huggles828 · Oct 4, 2010

Hmmm..... that number for KOing Link vertically with an usmash is awfully low, even fresh. Link is incredibly hard to kill vertically. Link can survive some pretty nasty stuff vertically.

Mario's fsmash IS a lot stronger than you'd think on first glance, but 110% seems awfully low to me. Link is just a tad under Snake in survivability. If he's not gimped it's pretty common to see a Link surviving into the 170s or 180s. Honestly, I'm thinking Link can probably make it to about 150% before having to worry about fsmash killing him on larger levels like FD as long as he DIs it correctly.

A2ZOMG · Oct 4, 2010

Note the damage numbers I stated. Specifically when Mario's Up-smash is charged to do 16 damage (which happens from properly timed Sliding Up-smashes), it will kill the biggest heavies pretty reliably at around 130%. And then F-smash usually can be charged to do 20-21 damage on a bait, which as stated can happen within reason due to the leanback of Mario's F-smash and Link's low mobility.

And for the record I've killed Snake players at percents that low. I'm pretty confident in my numbers against Link.

If you're talking about uncharged F-smash though, I'd expect that to kill at 130% at the absolute latest if fresh. Assuming up angled and mid stage position.

Fresh uncharged Up-smash (and D-smash) should be used at around 150-160 if the purpose is KOing Link. And it's worth knowing that late Dash Attack combos into Up-smash before you get spotdodge happy.

I personally think a lot of Mario mains have bad habits of unnecessarily staling KO moves though, which I would keep in mind if you think Mario isn't capable of KOing respectably early.

As for how it compares to Link's KO moves...factoring DI on both moves, 18% hit on D-air is comparable to Mario's uncharged F-smash. A lot of people seem to DI Link's F-smash horribly but uncharged it most reliably KOs at around 140%. Link's D-smash KOs a bit better than Mario's Up-smash and D-smash, although opportunities to charge it are less common than what Mario has for F-smash and U-smash.

HeroMystic · Oct 5, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
I personally think a lot of Mario mains have bad habits of unnecessarily staling KO moves though, which I would keep in mind if you think Mario isn't capable of KOing respectably early.

I'd actually say quite the opposite. F-Smash is never used for damaging opponents and just for kills, even though it gives a good amount of damage, and it's stupidly easy to refresh F-Smash after it's use. U-Smash doesn't have the same luxury though.

And charged U-Smash can be pretty common, and I'd factor that in, but charged F-Smash is a different story, heavily mindgame-oriented, IMO.

A2ZOMG · Oct 5, 2010

I use F-smash for damage dealing! =O

That's probably my "worst" habit ever. I just find it too useful for winning spacing wars in virtually any matchup. Even though killing ridiculously early is great...scoring 20-21 damage and basically always getting your opponent offstage for simply reading your opponent's spacing is a huge reward as well. Whenever I notice I'm in range to charge F-smash, I probably go for it 70% of the time, especially since the shield pushback is really good.

When I say Mario mains have bad habits of staling moves though, usually I mean they stale BOTH U-smash and D-smash, which forces them to rely on F-smashes or gimps for KOs (especially since they ALSO stale B-throw in the process). I mean gimping Link isn't exactly hard, but then again it's not always brain dead easy.

Like seriously. How many Mario mains don't do the above? I probably use D-smash and B-throw the least out of almost all Mario users to avoid the above mentioned problems.

Rizen · Oct 5, 2010

HeroMystic said:
I'd actually give the F-Smash spam to Link, pending on how you use it. Link's F-Smash has two hits while Mario's only has one. Not only that, but Link can delay the second hit of his F-Smash for mindgames. Mario's F-Smash has better reach due to disjoints, but Link's F-Smash has way more utility.

Unfortunately the ending lag on both hits is terrible. I've had people powershield both hits and Fsmash to punish.

A2ZOMG said:
He'll die just fine to a well-placed Up-angled F-smash especially if Mario baits him on the charge stance leanback, which can definitely happen due to Link's low mobility.

Link should be the one who's keeping his distance in this MU, even for close melee combat. A Link who's spacing well won't be baited while Mario charges (which doesn't mean it won't happen).

A2ZOMG said:
I use F-smash for damage dealing! =O

When I say Mario mains have bad habits of staling moves though, usually I mean they stale BOTH U-smash and D-smash, which forces them to rely on F-smashes or gimps for KOs (especially since they ALSO stale B-throw in the process). I mean gimping Link isn't exactly hard, but then again it's not always brain dead easy.

Keep in mind that Link is easy to gimp because his terrible recovery (short upB, bad side air movement) but aside from that he has a lot of great tools to avoid gimps. Mario's cape not flipping Link's Zair is a big help for recoveries that most characters don't have. Only Link, samus, Lucas, and Tlink, aren't flipped during zair, I think.

Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.

Smash Champion

Red Fox Warrior

Aimin' to Misbehave

Smash Lord

Red Fox Warrior

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Red Fox Warrior

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

Aimin' to Misbehave

Red Fox Warrior

Smash Lord

Legacy of the Mario

Smash Master

Smash Master

Legacy of the Mario

Smash Lord

Successful Businessman

Smash Master

Aimin' to Misbehave

Smash Legend

Legacy of the Mario

Smash Master

Smash Researcher

Smash Ace

Smash Legend

Aimin' to Misbehave

Red Fox Warrior

Smash Legend

Legacy of the Mario

Smash Legend

Aimin' to Misbehave

Smash Legend

Legacy of the Mario

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

Information

Network