Zelda doubles -what can team Zelda + ____ do? (Update notice, now discussing G&W!)

Half-Split Soul · May 3, 2009

Contents

First post:

1.1 Introduction
1.2 Basic knowledge
1.3 Ending words
1.4 Current character

Second post:

2.1 Quick summaries of the teams

1.1 Introduction

Hello! It´s my pleasure to introduce to you the Zelda team battles thread! This thread is dedicated for the discussion about Zelda and her partners in 2 vs 2 battles. It was born because there´s been some demand for the doubles tactics and partners thread lately.

1.2 Basic knowledge

Now that the boring introductions are over it´s time for... boring explanations! Here´s some basic knowledge about 2v2 battles. Since they are highly complicated things with many different variables (stages, enemy teams, experience vs or with some characters etc. etc.) it would be impossible just to list the best and worst teammates for Zelda. This is why this thread will work as a place for discussions about Zelda teamed up with various characters. Discussion is open, but here are some questions that can be used as a basis when thinking about teams tactics:

What kind of team is Zelda + ____?

This means talking about how the team combination usually works best AKA how it usually should be played. In many cases there´s more than one way of playing the team, all with their own advantages. The main three playstyles in teams are:

Aggressive (both characters are attack oriented and tend charge in for attacks, trying to add pressure on the enemy)
Passive (both characters play defensive and do their best to force enemies to approach first)
Semi-passive/semi-aggressive (one half of the team rushes in for close quarters combat while the other is left back to support with projectiles, protect from attacks and so on).
If necessary, it´s possible to make and use more accurate descriptions, but usually these three are enough to give to basic idea of the team structure.

What roles two the two have in the team?

The basic thing to consider in 2v2 battles is what role every character has. Possible roles could for example be:

Finisher: A character that specializes into finishing enemies that are already damaged or send flying. This is usually done by hitting them hard enough to send directly out of the screen or by gimping them.
Damage racker: The main damager in the team, this character usually tends to rush directly into fight and causes lots of damage really fast, but has some trouble sealing the deal with KOs.
Supporter: These characters favor the sidelines of battle and try to avoid unnecessary direct combat with enemy while supporting their partner with projectiles and other means.
Stock holder: Well protected character whose main job is to stay alive on the battlefield. The point of this is to keep a stock lead compared to the enemy team, thus forcing them to stay active.
Spacing master: The one who helps creating good situations and positions for the team. This is rarely ones only job in a team, but some characters perform in this task extremely well.
Multitasker: This means a character that has wide array of options, enabling him/her to work as kind of jack-of-all-trades, always choosing the most beneficial style for the team according to the situation.

This division is not to be taken too strictly as it´s not unusual for the characters to have traits from multiple of these playstyles, but they work as a nice directory.

What can the two do to support each other?

How well does Zelda work with the characters in question? Do they rule out each other´s weaknesses or share the same ones? Are there some specific tactics they can use together? All things like this are a important part of every doubles team and should be well discussed. This part of the discussion is probably going to be the most time-consuming of them all, but it´s also the most important one.

What problems does the team have?

There´s no such thing as the perfect team: there´re always some weak spots here and there. Finding and identifying those weak spots is also a part of the reason this thread was made, as knowing them makes it easier to prevent them from being exploited.

Is there something special that should be noted about the team?

Does the team have serious disadvantage on certain stages or get completely ruined by certain characters? Or vice versa: does the team absolutely dominate in certain situations? There are many things that can completely tore apart normally very well working team or give a huge advantage in battle. They´re usually rare, but can turn the battle upside down. If you know things like make sure to share them with others. We´re all working together here!

1.3 Ending words

We´ll be talking one character at a time, discussing how he/she works as Zelda´s teammate. The character we´re going to talk about at every current time is eventually decided by me but I´m always open for successions concerning both the thread in general and the next character to discuss. Every time we change a character I´ll post about it and sometimes list some very basic information about him/her concerning the team. This is only to save some time and effort. Everything more accurate and important will be left for the discussion. I´ll also try to create summaries about the discussed teams, but they might not get done at the same rate as we´re moving on.

And once more, the idea of this thread is not to list the best teammates for Zelda but to discuss how the different teams she can form work.

This is probably going to become quite large thread and take some serious time to finish. It also needs contribution from many people to work. But now it is finally time to get to the fun part: the actual discussions!

1.4 Discussion right now

Tweo princesses fighting side by side... do their countries get well together or end up into a war?

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Zelda + Marth

DISCUSS!

Half-Split Soul · May 3, 2009

2.1 Summaries of the teams:

Zelda + Ice Climbers

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GodAtHand said:
To be quite honest, this isn´t a team you´ll be likely to be a part of too often. To be quite honest, there´s actually a pretty high possibility that you´ll never even see this team in real game. The reason for this is simply this: ICs aren´t very good in teams and Zelda isn´t very good in general. You also have the obvious problems this team has.

Propably the most important is this:

GodAtHand said:

I just don't see this team working out. Especially since Zelda is so good at separating the two of them, if you accidently hit you partner (which happens) you are doing more damage to them in the end than most characters would.

Click to expand...

You also won´t be able to utilize the full potential of IC´s chaingrabs due to constant interruptions and the fact that Zelda just isn´t fast or maneuverable enough. And finally, this team doesn´t have any reliable approaches. Both Zelda and IC tend to play somewhat passive game and are a bit lacking with approaches, so you´ll be forced to play it campy, making this team very vulnerable to all characters who can handle camping well. All is not lost, however.

First off, Ice Climbers cause damage fast. And that means really fast. When both climbers work together they have multiple attacks that cause over 30 % damage at once. Combine this with the devastating power Zelda has in many of her attacks and this team doesn´t look so bad anymore.

Another good thing is IC´s projectile, ice blocks. When desynched and combined with Din´s fire, they are great for camping and forcing approaches that can be stopped with IC´s blizzard and Zelda´s smashes.

Last, but not least, this team has some rather viable tactics and followups in its possession. Din´s fire is perfect for saving Nana from some early deaths, and there´re quite a few ways for this team to string attacks together:

powuh_of_PIE said:

IC --> Zelda:

Blizzard to Din's
Blizzard to aerial
Grab to Fair/Bair
Grab to Dair (offstage)
Grab to Utilt/Usmash (if they are tall enough)
Grab release to Uair (if air release) or Dtilt/Dsmash (if grounded)

Zelda --> IC:

Dtilt to Dsmash/Fsmash/Usmash
Dtilt to Grab
Dtilt trip to Ice Lock
Din's to Blizzard
Din's to aerial

Click to expand...

To sum it up, this isn´t a team you want to use without practicing with it first. To play well with it you must be synched with your partner and learn to read him as well as your opponents. In skillful hands it could be quite effective, but to get there you´ll need to go through a lot of trouble.

Zelda + Wario

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At first Wario looks like the perfect teammate for our dear princess: he has great aerial game while we are better on the ground, compensates our slow movement with his fast air speed and can stock tank like no other. Still, this team has it's downsides too.

First off all, Wario has to constantly move around to fight effectively. Because of this Zelda has to be careful and more conservative with her long-lasting high-priority attacks, most notable being U-smash. This also works the other way around: if Wario is moving around throwing aerials our movement and spacing options can be severely limited, which is very bad thing for a character that relies on spacing as much as Zelda.

One way to work around this is to allow Wario take the frontlines and focus on supporting him with Din, only closing in for kills. The weakness of this tactic is that too much is left to Wario: he's required to hold off two enemies, get them to high percents for you to finish them off, all while avoiding Dins and stocktanking. It's simply too much for one character to do.

Despite all this, Wario's still one of the best teammates for Zelda. Both characters have finishers, Din is still great as support move (interrupting grab releases for example) and Wario really helps rule out our weaknesses. To be honest, the thing holding this team back isn't something Wario has but the things Zelda doesn't have.

Zelda + Lucas

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Lucas and Zelda... this team is generally considered not to be too great. To find the reasons for this you only need to take a look at their matchups and you'll notice that both have hard time against the likes of G&W and Marth. What this means in practice is that you'll be brutally murdered by them as a part of high-tier team. If you happen to team up with shorthop-happy Lucas, you'll also soon notice that the two of you are constantly banging your heads together.

All hope is not lost for this team though, as they still have some nice tricks in their proposal, most notably Din + PSI Magnet combination. Usually there's not enough time to do this, but it's still nice to recover even up to 32 % from your teammate every time there's a quiet moment.

Lucas also has quick, although a tad short-ranged ground game. Learn to combine this with Zelda long but slower counterpart and this team might actually be able to control the ground pretty well, as well as put pressure on enemies. The problem of having two lightweights in the same team is also slightly helped by Lucas' recovery, which in the right hands is actually quite good.

Nevertheless, it's obvious this team has many problems to make it harder for them to do well in competitive environment. It also has one huge weakness: neither of the characters can actually hold their own against two enemies, so double-teaming is even more damaging to this team than many others. Combine this with the things mentioned earlier and it's easy to see why there aren't many Z + L teams around.

Zelda + Snake

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Now this is an interesting team. The first to to cross your mind may be “ How could this team work? Zelda isn't fast enough to avoid his explosions and she'll die darn early because of her light weight!” However, the more you practice the easier it becomes to keep track of your teammate's traps and learn to use them to your advantage, and this is when you realize the awesome potential of this team.

Snake's projectiles and tilts allow great stage control, which means many things. His grenades can work as a setup for you finishers, his long lasting aerials can lead well into your high-powered Bair, Fair and Uair and he can even keep enemies at bay when you need time to recover! Much in the same fashion, your U- and F-smashes give him enough time for followups.

To make things even better, both characters have immense strength in their possession which means you won't only be able to string hits together, but you'll also be doing combos that lead to early deaths. What else could you ask for?

It's not like this team doesn't have any weak points, though. No matter how well you and your partner are in synch, you'll hit each other at some point, and when that happens it's going to hurt. If you were to accidentally taste the crotch kick of death aka Snake's U-tilt it could very well mean you just lost a stock. You'll also have to constantly watch out for the explosives, limiting your ability to focus on the enemy. Both of the characters also share the characteristic of not being very mobile. These are just minor setbacks in comparison to the good qualities this team has, though.

Example vid: [/size]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCwcVlD0xLQ

Zelda + Pikachu

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This summary is directly from KayLo!´s post, so all credit goes to her.

KayLo! said:
Pros:

- Pikachu can quickly get to Zelda's aid if she's in trouble, especially if she needs help with recovery. He can drop down and uair underneath her to pop her up with minimal stun/knockback, then get back to the stage safely since his recovery is so beastly.
- Related to the above, Pika can usually take control of the ledge with thunder/tjolt, minimizing how effectively the other team can edgeguard you. As long as you don't FW into thunder, he can usually cover you long enough for you to get back safely.

- Zelda loves people being above her; similarly, Pikachu loves people being above him. Both of them have a wide range of moves that knock people into the air, and with QAC, Pikachu can teleport across the stage and thunder-snipe while they're in hitstun. Sweet.

- Similarly, Pika can set up for Zelda's uair, and there're probably ways to set up for fair/bair out of dthrow or something at mid-high percentages -- haven't personally tried the latter, though.

- Zelda's throws and strong smashes can easily send people off-stage in a good position to be edgeguarded by Pika.

- Pika's small and agile, so the chances that you'll accidentally hit him with fair/bair or another deadly move are considerably smaller than they'd be with a bulkier teammate.

- As long as you don't get sucked in with it, Pika's dsmash is good for hitting both opponents and giving you time to get into a better position if you've been backed into a corner. You'd be surprised how many times both people on the other team fall into it, even when the hitbox has already been out for a while...... x.x

- Pika can easily rack up damage and doesn't completely lack in kill moves, while Zelda carries all the KO power.

- Pikachu's adorable.

- Dtilt lock > sweetspotted thunder. It happens.

Cons:

- It's pretty easy for the two of them to stay out of each other's way, but DO NOT GET HIT BY THUNDER, especially T2 (the blast around Pika's body). You'll die. Early.

- Neither Zelda nor Pika do exceptionally well when they're double-teamed. Pikachu can quickly get to Zelda's aid in cases like this, but Zelda has a hard time doing the same for him.

- Both are hellza light, so they really need to focus on not dying early.

- Pikachu usually heavily relies on his grab game, especially his CGs in certain matchups, but they won't be as helpful in a 2v2 environment.

- Teams with MK, Marth, and G&W will wreck your day. Easily. And with the number of G&W/MK + [insert character here] teams out there, you'll frequently find yourself having a very hard time. Other characters that have the potential to give you trouble: Wario, Snake (Pika can't CG him in teams!!), Ness, and the spacies, especially Fox and Falco (without his ability to CG > death, they give Pika considerable trouble).

Overall:

Other teams are better. There are too many common teams characters that foil their plans, and both of them are more useful being backup/support for a stronger offensive teammate. (Or in Pika's case, at least someone equally offensive.) There are fancy tricks you can pull off (Zelda throw/smash > Pika edgeguard; Zelda hit > thunder, Pika hit > Zelda uair), but most of them force Pika to be the main offensive character, and it's a burden he doesn't do well with in teams.

The basic gameplan is to have Pika rack damage with Zelda helping out where she can, then have Zelda come in for the kill or edgeguard/thunder setup. Oh, and STAY ALIVE, because it's very unlikely that either character will have free stocks for share-stocking.

Zelda + Zamus

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Only two words are needed to describe this team: “glass cannon.“ They're both light and thus easy to send flying, have recoveries that don't really work well in crowded matches and may clash with with each other if you're not careful. If you can survive these downsides there's actually lot of good aspects in this team.

Firstly, at the beginning of the match Zamus brings armor pieces to the battleground. Learn to use them. Zelda has very good glide toss and a reflector in her arsenal, so she can do all kinds of interesting things with items. If you get a good streak going on it might very well take a stock away from both of your opponents before the pieces disappear.

After that you have the obvious combo qualities of both characters: Zamus stunning D-smash and neutral B and Zelda's smashes. The moves alone give this team many chances to chain hit after hit together, much to the demise of the other team. They also allow both characters to hit with their stronger attacks which could otherwise be a hard task to do.

Overall, this team is really good as long as you can keep the momentum going, but if that's broken you're in trouble. You both will die to one strong attack even at quite a low percentages. There's also recovery problems: Zelda's recovery is easy to predict and Zamus' tether is easily edgehogged when there're two characters doing it. You must also always be careful not to accidentally edgehog it yourself. Because of this you could dominate some matches and be totally destroyed in others.

Zelda + Mario

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Before starting the actuall summary let's state the obvious: both Mario and Zelda are below C tier. Because of this many dismiss them straight away when thinking about good characters to team up with, but this isn't something what you should do.

If you know either one or even both of these characters well you'll understand their hidden potential in team battles. In fact, they're often found to be in completely different league when compared to their singles skills. To top it off, the two actually work very well together, making this team actually to be very intimidating if used right.

The basic structure of this team would probably be the following: Mario works as damage racker, spacing master and gimper while Zelda fills the roles of finisher and support character. Biggest problem with this buildup is that neither of the characters can actually stock tank very effectively, making it extremely important that both of the characters help one another to keep their stocks as long as possible whenever necessary. Other than this drawback the team is pretty well working combination.

The two also have some pretty neat tricks up their sleeve. They're certainly not good enough to always be relied on in the battle, but not actually impossible to pull of like many other team shenanigans. First one of these is the good use of F.L.U.D.D. Mario's water pump is almost like it was created for the teams: it can be used to send enemies into Zelda's smashes or to even make her move towards enemies while charging up. It can also give her a boost if she tries to get below enemies in time Uair them. There're limitless options with it.

Other trick is Mario's cape **** (demostrated in this video). Because Zelda's Usmash lasts very long when connected, Mario has plenty of time to come near and cape the opponent unfortunate enough to get stuck in it. Ouch. In addition of these the team also has some other unusual tactics like fireballing Zelda so that she can shoot multiple Dins at once, but these are mostly for the fun and maybe very weird mindgames.

Because of the good chemistry this team has it's definitely worth trying out. You might be surprised of the results you get with it, especially in low tier team tourneys that allow D tier characters to participate. Just remember not to lose any unnecessary stocks.

Zelda + DK

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TBA

Zelda + Peach

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TBA

Zelda + Zelda aka Double Din's

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TBA

Zelda + Ike

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TBA

Zelda + Pokemon trainer

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TBA

Zelda + Pit

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TBA

Zelda + Captain Falcon

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TBA

Zelda + Metaknight

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TBA

Zelda + Mr. G&W

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TBA

Zelda + Marth

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TBA

GodAtHand · May 3, 2009

I have never teamed with Ice Climbers before... Nor have I ever seen them in a team before. I think they lose their one viable strategy in teams (Chain Grabbing) because of the constant interruptions.

Snakeee · May 3, 2009

I have a lot of teams knowledge....but I don't know much about IC's so I will sit out this one as well

Kataefi · May 3, 2009

Yeah I wouldn't put ICs at the forefront when picking a doubles partner. The frenzy of having more players on the stage means desynchs are hindered, and their chaingrabs don't work very well imo.

edit: maybe we should call some of the IC players over here and let them tell us some of the quirks ICs have in teams

Half-Split Soul · May 3, 2009

I also thought of that and asked their help. I also know that ICs aren´t the easiest character to talk about and quite rare in doubles (leading into few having experience about them in those and thus a lot of discussion being based on theory) but I have my reasons for choosing them to be the first.

And I agree with their chaingrab being seriously limited in teams. In order for it to work properly they´d need a partner with good aerial movement and aerial attacks, and lets face it, Zelda doesn´t excel in those areas.

MrEh · May 3, 2009

You can summertime this entire topic into one useful chunk of information.

Good Doubles Partners

1. MK
2. Snake
3. Wario

Everyone else don't matter. lol

Darkmusician · May 3, 2009

MrEh said:
You can summertime this entire topic into one useful chunk of information.

Good Doubles Partners

1. MK
2. Snake
3. Wario

Everyone else don't matter. lol

I couldn't agree more.

GodAtHand · May 3, 2009

I still say Zelda + Peach = Owning.

Winning matches against a double metaknight team from NJ = has to be amazing.

Snakeee · May 3, 2009

That's no fun lol.

I'd definitely throw G&W into that list btw.

ZSS is a really good teammate too *wink*

Kataefi · May 3, 2009

I think we all know who the best team partners are ^^

But let's think of this thread as.... 'if Zelda were stuck on an island with ___________ ... and suddenly the end of the world was coming and they had to team, what tricks and traps could they utilise together to save the world?'

very bad analogy I know xD But you get the jist.

So Ice Climbers --> perhaps they don't have a lot going for them team-wise, perhaps they have untapped doubles potential, who knows?!. But how well does zelda:

- protect the climbers and vice versa? If they get a grab, can she hold off the other team member from saving their comrade for a bit?
- what stages would compliment ICs AND Zelda together?
- other questions etc etc...

GodAtHand · May 3, 2009

Kataefi said:
- protect the climbers and vice versa? If they get a grab, can she hold off the other team member from saving their comrade for a bit?
Well... Let me think. She can't move very fast so if they are anywhere near them already, no. She can Din's but it has a huge chance of interrupting the ICs. If they happen to already be separated she may be able to keep them at bay, but otherwise I would say no.
- what stages would compliment ICs AND Zelda together?
BattleField? If the ICs can do the Desync with one on the platform one below and spam their little ice thingies, and Zelda sits behind using Din's that could be some very difficult spam to get through.
- other questions etc etc...

I just don't see this team working out. Especially since Zelda is so good at separating the two of them, if you accidently hit you partner (which happens) you are doing more damage to them in the end than most characters would.

C~Dog · May 3, 2009

Ice Climbers get ***** in doubles. They need space and careful timing to play well, and doubles is full of interruptions that **** this up.

The only was this could work was if you somehow managed to kill off one opponent, then you could both work on grabbing the remaining one to give the ICs a cg kill. But thats not a large bonus when compared to there general lack of good doubles game.

-Tempest- · May 3, 2009

Hmm... I've never seen an IC in teams. It seems like a bad idea, since their major thing is chaingrabs.

goodkid · May 3, 2009

ICs & Zelda is a no no 4 Zelda. Zelda works better w/ a solid char(damage builder, good recovery, speed, or range) Marth can work well w/ Zelda. He has the range & can be the aggressor. IMO Zelda better as a support/passive teamate, anyone in high tier works better than the lower tier chars unless you & your partner have amazing chemistry & combos already planned ahead. I've heard Zelda's Dins & Tornado is a beast in teams. Dins is also 10X better because its much harder to avoid ^_^

Canvasofgrey · May 4, 2009

MrEh said:
You can summertime this entire topic into one useful chunk of information.

Good Doubles Partners

1. MK
2. Snake
3. Wario

Everyone else don't matter. lol

You forgot Game and Watch you nub! XD

-Tempest- · May 4, 2009

Meh, I find Lucario to be a good doubles partner.

Half-Split Soul · May 4, 2009

MrEh said:
Good Doubles Partners

1. MK
2. Snake
3. Wario

Everyone else don't matter. lol

In theory that´s completely right. To be even more accurate, we all should only play MK and every team should be double Metaknight. In real life, however, people play many characters for many reasons and may perform much better with lower-tier characters than they would with high-tier ones. That´s why in this thread we´re supposed to talk about all possible team combinations including Zelda.

GodAtHand said:
I just don't see this team working out. Especially since Zelda is so good at separating the two of them, if you accidently hit you partner (which happens) you are doing more damage to them in the end than most characters would.

This is a huge problem for this team. The only real solution I know of is that the team camps a lot with projectiles. This doesn´t work against many enemies though, so what other possibilities would they have?

Also the idea about BF could work well. Ice Climbers would force enemies to either jump or shield and Zelda could punish the jumpers with Din. The floating platforms would also limit the approach options, but this would only benefit Z+IC team since they would focus on defencive play.

goodkid said:
ICs & Zelda is a no no 4 Zelda. Zelda works better w/ a solid char(damage builder, good recovery, speed, or range)

If both Ice Climbers are together they can actually deal damage really fast. Their side- and down-b´s cause around 30 damage both when hit well and their D-smash does almost 40 damage when uncharged. Ice blocks also rack up damage surprisingly fast.

I don´t know about IC´s killing options when compared to their damaging skills. How strong actually are their smashes and aerials, KO-wise? And is it possible for them to land Nana´s spike regularly in teams?

AzNfinesse · May 4, 2009

my current teams partner with zelda is either a ZSS or a luigi depending on our matchup (i also switch off with g&w depending on the matchup).

luigi is a great partner for zelda especially since luigi's air game is probably one of the best there is out there which is great since zelda has no real air game. my partner is also really good at using luigi's insane recovery skills to keep me alive after i miss a FW recovery or get gimped on the side. in return, I end up setting up the opponents for some perfect kills. this team, the luigi ends up bein the tank an i end up being the damage racker/killer. going by the list abover we're probably a semi-aggressive team.

ZSS is also a great partner, as zelda can use the items to glide toss and get those early kills with fsmash/upsmash. her NL also really messes with the opponents when they try to gain control of the items. this combination we end up being really patient and waiting for the opponent to mess up and the ZSS will capitalize with the stun and i'll follow up with a LK or usmash. going by the list above we're a very passive team.

Kataefi · May 4, 2009

Cool! But we'll go into more detail about luigi and ZSS when it's their turn later on once we've finished up with the ICs.

I think it's generally considered the ICs aren't very good partners to reliably team with. I don't think it's easy to land nana's spike due to a) you need to have grabbed near the ledge anyways b) if I saw my partner about to be spiked by the ICs from a grab, I would just strike them regardless of if I hit my partner.

MrEh · May 4, 2009

In theory that´s completely right.

No. It's been proven to work in real life.

Peachkid · May 4, 2009

In my opinion, Peach and Zelda are surprisingly a good team and just recently i got 2nd in doubles with zelda as my teammate (thank you Riot/Godathand :D). although their cps kinda cancel eachother out (like for peach, jungle japes is a great stage for her. but not so much for zelda and so on and so on.) but they make up for the cps with good chemistry.

i say chemistry because they each benefit off eachother. Peach's fast as holy hell movements and damage output and Zelda's high high kill power mesh nicely together. not to mention when they get their opponents off the stage, the opponent(s) have 1 of two options,

A: Dodge a Dins fire, and get hit with a peach fair
B: Dodge peach's turnip spam and get hit with one or more Dins fires (or vice versa)

sure sure, they arent the solve all cure all team with no weaknesses. they are really really easy to kill both vertically and maybe horizontally. also the peach has to be very observant of zelda because, if shes at high damage and accidentally walks into one of her many kill moves, bye bye peach.

overall, once the two develop the chemistry, and can read off eachother. this team is a force to be reckoned with.

Edit: wait....you guys are doing specific characters arent you?... >__>; *pokes at the ground with a twig*

Half-Split Soul · May 4, 2009

@MrEh: I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn´t saying that MK, Snake and Wario weren´t good doubles partners since they are. I was saying that they´re not the only ones seen in doubles matches, thus not being the only ones to matter.

Now could we move along with the discussion about IC + Zelda team?

@Peachkid: Yes, we´re doing specific characters and Ice climbers are currently under discussion. You had lots of good points though and I hope you´ll tell us more when we´re discussing Peach.

Although it seems that this isn´t going anywhere right now...

Kage Me · May 4, 2009

Yeah, you don't find ICs in teams, so everything I'm about to post is theorycrafting at its highest level.

Zelda and Ice Climbers are a rather passive team. Ice Blocks can force the opponent into the air, which is where Din's Fire keeps the pressure on. This can be done until the opponent reaches the unlikely trio, and then the brickwalling with Blizzard and Zelda's u-smash can begin. Should the ICs get a grab, Zelda must do everything in her power to prevents the opponent's teammate from interrupting.

There is one very good thing about ICs + Zelda, and that's Zelda's very strong, very quick and fairly lasting u-tilt. ICs can finish chaingrabs much earlier due to this, provided that the teams have some coordination. This, by extension, means that the teammate needs to be occupied for a shorter time, and that this team actually does have potential for chaingrabs. Another good thing is that Din's Fire can make a wonderful distraction from Nana ****, should the ICs be seperated, and it can also be used to take Nana out of helpless state and allow Popo to catch up and save her.

Zelda takes the roles of finisher and supporter, while Ice Climbers are amazing as damage rackers. Even without chaingrabs, their Blizzard easily does 30% when used from very close by, and non-specials are also very powerful because... well, there's two hammers. On another note, Zelda can be a very decent positioner for the Ice Climbers by using Nayru's Love, which is important because their two most damaging moves (d-smash and Blizzard) require the opponent to be at point-blank range.

...The more I write, the more I become convinced that this may not even be such a bad team.

zggy870 · May 4, 2009

What do you know, I just finished my doubles highlight vid. Perhaps take a look and comment on the practicality of some of the combos? Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOFD3DICWco

I know there's more than just Zelda, and I apologize for that. Seriously though, who needs MK when you have a Falcon Pawnch?

GodAtHand · May 4, 2009

*Breaks Peachkid twig and hands him a cookie*

In all honesty we should talk in PMs or something about some crazy strats we might have in our heads, it could help. I already have some things in mind. And I am now pretty comfortable on Jungle Japes. Zelda's Dtilt can spike downwards if you are against the planks from the bottom, And I learned the ledgewarp areas so I can move from side to side faster... I actually camped just as well as a Falco I played the other day by using careful reflecting, ledgewarping, and Din's!

I am going to balance this off topicness with the most important IC + Zelda information ever... Ice Climbers are week against fire, so Din's is super effective. So watch out for that.

And Zelda Dtilit to Blizzard to lightning kick is ownage. (Thank you level 7 cpu Ice climbers lol)

And pretty awesome vid btw!

-Tempest- · May 4, 2009

Hmmm... alright, let's see if I can come up with anything.

ICs are hard to work around as Zelda, especially if the other team can seperate them well. Teams that can seperate Nana and Popo would also be able to gimp them easily, due to the loss of Belay. Overall, it seems that the ICs are a one v one character. I just can't picture a scenario where teaming with them would be beneficial.

Superspright · May 4, 2009

ICs in teams is a horrible idea. When nana gets separated in a 1v1 it's one guy chasing after her. When it's a 2v2, then 2 people can bash her to death. Nana is so ******** that with two people against her, it won't take much for popo to be a loner early in his stock.

[EDIT] I concur with tempest entirely. ICs are a great 1v1 character[?], but 2v2 is nigh pandemonium. ICs need to be focused.

Squirrely · May 4, 2009

As Ganondorf, I personally enjoy teaming up with Zelda more than anyone else.

Tanking everyone while fireballs explode all around me is pretty great.
Zelda does nasty things to people when Ganon chokes them.
Ganon does nasty things to people when they get caught in Zelda's forward and especially up smash.

I just feel their playstyles don't clash.

However, no one wants to partner with Ganondorf since he's like the fat kid in gym class

Zelda is my favorite teammate still, though.

Lotopius · May 4, 2009

I've actually tried the zelda+IC team with a couple of friends.

The fight becomes extremely simple and brutal.

Basically, the whole match revolves around the IC getting a grab and zelda keeping away the other opponent.

The good thing is, once the IC do get a grab, the grabbed has pretty much lost a stock.
Zelda's attacks have a lot of knockback and last long (2 to 3 chaingrabs during zelda's upsmash), giving plenty of time for the IC to rack up damage.
Furthermore, because of the ability to mantain the opponent in a grab, once the other opponent is knocked far away enough, zelda can come back, rack up the damage if necessary (downthrow->zelda fsmash->desync blizzard->lightning kick ^^ and yes, at middle percentages, you actually have the time to do that unless the opponent is sonic or samus), and finish the opponent off with an easily sweetspotted kick.

If the IC don't get a grab, the team will most likely abuse long lasting, wide moves such as blizzard, IC down-b, din's fire, usmash and dsmash since the opponent will most likely gang up on the IC. As GodatHand outlined, t is extemely important to mantain the IC together and disrupt the opponent by any means. Situations where the IC shield a din's fire or a naryu's love to get the opponent away was not uncommon during our matches.

Overall, it's a quite risky team to play, requires a very good team coordination and some characters can completely wreck it (glares at sonic) but otherwise, it holds it's own pretty (I'd say very, but since I haven't used it in any tournament...) well.

Canvasofgrey · May 4, 2009

Half-Split Soul said:
@MrEh: I think you misunderstood my point. I wasn´t saying that MK, Snake and Wario weren´t good doubles partners since they are. I was saying that they´re not the only ones seen in doubles matches, thus not being the only ones to matter.

Now could we move along with the discussion about IC + Zelda team?

*Passes a note to Half-split*

P.S. Mr. Eh is probably the biggest troll you'll ever meet. Never take him seriously. XD

MrEh · May 4, 2009

Canvasofgrey said:
*Passes a note to Half-split*

P.S. Mr. Eh is probably the biggest troll you'll ever meet. Never take him seriously. XD

This is true.

My comment wasn't serious, but it was pretty much what I think about the subject. ^^

powuh_of_PIE · May 4, 2009

Hmm, a doubles discussion... This'll be fun ^ ^

I see a lot of general discussion, but what about specific doubles setups? Stuff like the previously mentioned IC grab to LK and what not. What about Zelda Dtilt setups?
Dtilt to IC Usmash?
Dtilt to IC grab?
Dtilt trip to Ice Lock?

Dtilt is already one of out best moves, and in teams it gets a lot better. This needs to be looked at.

Kataefi · May 4, 2009

powuh_of_PIE said:
Dtilt trip to Ice Lock?

That's so evil :chuckle:

but I like! In a 2v1 situation that would make a fitting end to the match.

ICs have some brilliant juggle traps as well iirc. Din's + Uair/Utilt desynchs could be great when the opponent's in the air - they can't do anything to escape this setup unless as they are guaranteed to be hit by at least 1 of these 3 traps.

How good are they at edgeguarding together? I'm thinking.... blizzard at the ledge with zelda standing back doing din's... I'm not really so sure on this one though.

Half-Split Soul · May 5, 2009

The good thing in this team is that Zelda has quite strong spike. Since it´s sometimes easier for ICs to just F-throw their opponents through the entire stage instead of using an actual infinite they can do that, spike them and let Zelda spike them again. This would also be harder to stop by the other enemy.

I also thought that their ice blocks could stop recoveries and give Zelda some easy spikes or LKs.

MrEh · May 5, 2009

Situational setups like that are unlikely to work. In fact, unless the setup itself is easy get working in a 4 player environment, it's not worth looking into.

Try general things like throws into Usmashes.

Canvasofgrey · May 5, 2009

Eh, I'm just used to having your opinions being thrown everywhere these days. So it's not a big deal.

Really, to me, it's mostly with your signature, I can't take you very seriously with that stupid person's face.

powuh_of_PIE · May 5, 2009

So, in an effort to get this back on track, here are all the setups I saw in the thread plus a few I tried out/thought up.

IC --> Zelda:

Blizzard to Din's
Blizzard to aerial
Grab to Fair/Bair
Grab to Dair (offstage)
Grab to Utilt/Usmash (if they are tall enough)
Grab release to Uair (if air release) or Dtilt/Dsmash (if grounded)

Zelda --> IC:

Dtilt to Dsmash/Fsmash/Usmash
Dtilt to Grab
Dtilt trip to Ice Lock
Din's to Blizzard
Din's to aerial

Anyone else got ideas or want to test these? There's only one good IC in my area and I haven't been able to contact him to test this stuff.

Kataefi · May 6, 2009

Well... I'm thinking the benefit of Zelda's smashes in teams is that they hold the victim long enough for her partner to be able to followup with an attack.

She can usmash, have the ICs wait, and the moment the opponent is knocked out of it, the ICs could potentially get an aerial in.

But aside from that I realy like those setups ^^ Blizzard/Din's interests me - I wonder what cancels what out, and if someone is caught inside the blizzard, does din's pile on extra damage without harming the ICs in the process?

Canvasofgrey · May 6, 2009

Possibly be able to time Zelda's Usmash so that when Zelda's final hit hits the opponent upward, Iceclimbers can do a Fair to Spike them back down to Zelda and Zelda does a Dsmash.

Maybe, I don't know.

Zelda doubles -what can team Zelda + ____ do? (Update notice, now discussing G&W!)

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