Zelda doubles -what can team Zelda + ____ do? (Update notice, now discussing G&W!)

[MrEh]

Possibly be able to time Zelda's Usmash so that when Zelda's final hit hits the opponent upward, Iceclimbers can do a Fair to Spike them back down to Zelda and Zelda does a Dsmash.

Maybe, I don't know.

DM used to do that crap in teams.

Wolf Dthrow--->Zelda Usmash--->Wolf Fair


Too good.

 

[goodkid]

Well for all of the blizzard combos to work, you & your partner have to have some of this pre-practiced to do well. To make this team viable, it will take some work because of the many tricks they can do. Plus the IC player has to really know its stuff to be able to chaingrab to death w/ out messing up & use all the ICs moves in the right situation & not get undesynced. I wonder how Double ICs would do.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

This team is really starting to look surprisingly good but hard to master. Well used, the IC´s damage dealing abilities and Zelda´s kill power could really be dangerous together.

I´m starting to think that Zelda´s downsmash could either make or break this team. Used carelessly, it would separate ICs and ruin their chances to do pretty much anything. It would be great, however, to make room around them and give them time to cause damage with grabs and specials. Given the right percents, D-tilt lock would also work for this.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

THe IC would do well to not spam grab in teams. When I play teams with IC(I main IC, btw), i tend to spam Bair, Blizzard, dash-attack and juggle with Uair. If you can score a grab, sure, go for it but the thing is, grabs are usally NOT 0-Death unless your partner is very adept at holding the other partner off. IT's usually like 3-4 grabs, if THAT, to an Fsmash or something.

If anything, I think sheik would be a better choice to team with IC than Zelda. How about discussing the entire character instead of just Zelda?

 

[goodkid]

If anything, I think sheik would be a better choice to team with IC than Zelda. How about discussing the entire character instead of just Zelda?

Idk I guess because this is the Zelda board? lol we should be thinking about Sheik/Zelda as a whole, because they perform better together. How is sheik a good partner for ICs,? she can't kill like Zelda.

 

[stealth3654]

Sheik can fend off one opponent while IC are chain grabbing the other. Plus, gimp kills make me happy .

If no one minds, can we discuss Wario next? He is considered more and more to be the best doubles partner, and I'll be teaming with one on the 16th.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

If no one minds, can we discuss Wario next? He is considered more and more to be the best doubles partner, and I'll be teaming with one on the 16th.

If anyone doesn´t disagree I´ll make him the next, but let´s finish ICs first okay? =)

And *P*L*U*R*: I don´t think we´re going to add Sheik into discussion. I don´t have anything against the idea per se, but since I don´t play her I wouldn´t be able to lead the discussion at all. I can of course try if everyone else wants it.

But now, does anyone have something they still want to say about the current team? Good/bad stages for them, for example?

 

[Wolfric]

I've played SSBB since it came out, thought I was never interested in joining this board 'til I started having problems against Metaknight, since I don't own a Wii, I play with friends all weekend, and we play in teams, also do tournaments which I've won 4/5 with my partner(Metaknight), I suck at singles, I think I've only played 2 singles ever, and I gotta say for 2vs2 Best teams for Zelda would be
Metaknight(Probably the best for Zelda)
Snake
Pikachu
Wario
Marth
Wolf

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Idk I guess because this is the Zelda board? lol we should be thinking about Sheik/Zelda as a whole, because they perform better together. How is sheik a good partner for ICs,? she can't kill like Zelda.

WEll IC has no problem killing and our smashes can't be SDIed like yours can. Overall, Sheik's just faster and is a much better aggressor than Zelda. IC can't be the aggressor in doubles because we get separated to easily. Sheik is just overall pretty lagless so she has good lead ins for our grab-game. Yes, Zelda kills better but she's definitely still a defensive character in doubles. I don't think two defensive characters would work well.

And gimps make me happy in the pants

I've played SSBB since it came out, thought I was never interested in joining this board 'til I started having problems against Metaknight, since I don't own a Wii, I play with friends all weekend, and we play in teams, also do tournaments which I've won 4/5 with my partner(Metaknight), I suck at singles, I think I've only played 2 singles ever, and I gotta say for 2vs2 Best teams for Zelda would be
Metaknight(Probably the best for Zelda)
Snake
Pikachu
Wario
Marth
Wolf

I dunno, I'd say Dins healing Lucas for 32% is pretty **** sexy

 

[Wolfric]

Yeah, Lucas is greatly nice as well, thought with Lucas there are many opens against more teams, but I won the first doubles tournament with a Lucas partner, I love Zelda's up-smash followed by Lucas' killer up-smash, also they're nice as Defensive, due to forward+b of both of them, can be really annoying (I'm just getting used to this attacks abreviations, so please don't flare me if I mistake any attack with another hahah)

 

[Kataefi]

No worries wolfric... we all start somewhere!

I'm still a tad unconvinced that ICs would make a solid team partner >.< I think people are right in saying they're more geared towards 1v1s.

If nana dies... how would popo and zelda work together? I'm suscepting the exact way? Doesn't popo have his own chaingrab he can do that's slightly easier?

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

No worries wolfric... we all start somewhere!

I'm still a tad unconvinced that ICs would make a solid team partner >.< I think people are right in saying they're more geared towards 1v1s.

If nana dies... how would popo and zelda work together? I'm suscepting the exact way? Doesn't popo have his own chaingrab he can do that's slightly easier?

IC is just a bad character for teams in general. The best way for us to make them work out is to play really defensively and avoid cluster****s because Nana gets gayed so hard.

Popo's chaingrab only works on most characters until like 20%. THe only characters that get ***** by SoPo's chaingrab are Wolf are Sheik.

TRust me. It's not you, it's me. We just wouldn't work out.


NExt character? Lucas perhaps? I'm intrigued to see how this works out because Zelda always interested me in Brawl and doubles is my fave aspect of Smash. Getting healed for 32% is just so **** hot.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

I'd be fine with Lucas, the more I see him played the more I think he has good potential. Also my bro is a Lucas main so we may test some stuff out if we get a chance.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Sorry guys, I decided to make Wario next because stealth3654 said he'll be teaming with one soon and asked that we'd talk about Wario. I can promise that Lucas´ll follow after him though. The summary about Ice Climbers discussion will also be added to the first post when I have time to write it.

But now, next character is Wario as I already said. Let´s start!

I'll also mark the basic information (=general things almost everybody already know)
I list when declaring the next character by putting * -marks both before and after it from now on.

*Wario has great aerial mobility and good air game, so Din can be used without really worrying about hitting you partner.*


Edit: Warios have been invited.

 

[GodAtHand]

Does Bite to Lightning kick work?

If someone tries the grab release Zelda can Din's from wherever to stop it.

Thats all I can think of...

 

[Mike B]

Sorry if this has been said before, or if I am completely wrong, but Wario's bike can be good for extending Zelda's hitboxes.

 

[DarkThundah]

Yey, we finally have a doubles thread. I'm glad Half-Split had the initiative to take suggestion to heart.

I just participated in a (small) doubles tourney in CT a week ago. My partner was snake, we did pretty well and had no problems until we got to an Oli and wolf team, in the end they were just better skilled then we were. I never considered wario to, good to know.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Does Bite to Lightning kick work?

It does, but it´s hard to get working when all players are stil on the field. Wario can, however, get bite pretty easily from one of Zelda´s smashes.

Sorry if this has been said before, or if I am completely wrong, but Wario's bike can be good for extending Zelda's hitboxes.

Good idea! Wario also wouldn´t suffer from the loss in his recovery, since Zelda can aid him with Din if needed. This is pretty situational tactic though.

 

[MrEh]

Wario's bike can extent her hitboxes, but that's pointless. Wario should never has his bike on the stage.


In any case, don't worry about situational combos. If anything, you can have Wario Fthrow into a Usmash or something. If you're doing anythign more complex then that, then you're wasting time.

 

[KayLo!]

Wario also wouldn´t suffer from the loss in his recovery, since Zelda can aid him with Din if needed. This is pretty situational tactic though.

Lol. Zelda helping anyone's recovery (especially if the other team has both characters on the stage) is probably not gonna happen. Din's is slow, too powerful, and Zelda is completely helpless the entire time it's out, not to mention its cooldown lag. Plus if she gets hit (which will happen 99% of the time), your aim is fuxed.

I'm not saying it won't ever happen, but counting it as a "pro" in any team combo is pushing it. Other characters do the job a million times better.

Wario would be much, much better off keeping his bike for attacking & recovery.

EDIT: Btw, Zelda is mainly my doubles character (unless I really wanna win.... then I go Pika ), so trust me, I've tried this many-a time. Zelda's the one who needs help with her recovery, very rarely vice versa.

 

[MrEh]

People spend too much timing thinking of combos. Think more practical.

Think of Zelda as a big juicy distraction and think of Wario as the fat man that kills.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

So what playstyle do you people people think that would suit this team? Semi-passive maybe? And what roles would the characters take?

And KayLo!: You´re absolutely right. I knew that too and that´s why I added the sentence "This is pretty situational tactic though." which was referring both to Wario´s bike and Zelda´s Din aid. Thinking back now it should´ve been These´re..., but oh well...

 

[Kataefi]

Wario high mobility could make him fall prey into some of Zelda's attacks if the team is reckless, but his weight is a big plus... he is so tricky to hit in general, let alone actually kill him.

He can assume any role really, I think this team is simply a 'do what you can' one where it's all about the given context, if someone's at killing percents then both can assume the role of killers as they have good killpower etc etc, applies for damage racking... I think Wario can stocktank very very well also.

I wonder what combo strategies they could do in a 2 vs 1 situation xD I imagining something involving wafts!

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Sounds about right.

Also, if this team doesn´t start getting more discussion I´ll move on to the next character tomorrow.

Edit: Moving on, the next character is Lucas. They´ve also been invited.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Dins heals for 32%. That's more than snake can Ftilt you for.

Tooo good

 

[MrEh]

Healing sounds good on paper, but the problem is that Lucas still sucks. Go against team MK and tell me that it still doesn't suck. lol

 

[goodkid]

Lucas is ok, but a higher tiered character is better. Both of their recoveries suck so there is no way for you to help except Dins, which isn't a smart idea because the other team will just punish for the lag & possible KO.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Din healing is still a neat little trick to use every time there´s a silent moment in the fight.

Many Lucas players like shorthop aerial game, so he´s in danger of getting hit by Zelda anti-aerial attacks.

What do you think about PKT2 in teams? It´s hard to get done in 4 player fight, but there´re some times it´ll work. Is it worth the risk of getting punished or hitting Zelda?

Lucas also has some tricks to manipulate spacing (zap jump, magnet boost). Can any of these be used in teams for anything useful?

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Healing sounds good on paper, but the problem is that Lucas still sucks. Go against team MK and tell me that it still doesn't suck. lol

Lucas does not "suck". You said it like your character is that much better. People, that understand his metagame well, knows he doesn't "suck"

Is he below average? maybe. He doesn't suck though.

Lucas is ok, but a higher tiered character is better. Both of their recoveries suck so there is no way for you to help except Dins, which isn't a smart idea because the other team will just punish for the lag & possible KO.

.....
Lucas has one of the best recoveries in the game.

Din healing is still a neat little trick to use every time there´s a silent moment in the fight.

Many Lucas players like shorthop aerial game, so he´s in danger of getting hit by Zelda anti-aerial attacks.

What do you think about PKT2 in teams? It´s hard to get done in 4 player fight, but there´re some times it´ll work. Is it worth the risk of getting punished or hitting Zelda?

Lucas also has some tricks to manipulate spacing (zap jump, magnet boost). Can any of these be used in teams for anything useful?

Lucas has FHdair, which is his safest approach. SHnair is for punishing and putting pressure on shields. He doesn't really rely on his SH game. His ground game is just as good.

As a team, Lucas and zelda pretty much fail. We have the same bad matchups, so if someone ran say double Marth, or double G&W, we're screwed. PKT2 Isn't even a good attacking move. Shouldn't risk it. It djes about 50%, 47 or 49 actually, but It is easily (S)DI'ed out of. Only plus is Dins healing.

Zap jumping and magnet pulling are mainly for recovery purposes. you won't get much out of them.

 

[Chuee]

Lucas & Zelda suck together. Both have the same bad matchups and bad air priority. About the only good thing is that Zelda can heal lucas. Changing into shiek would most likely be better. Only zelda for healing.

 

[MeLL0W]

Well as a Main of both of these characters I cna honestly say that.

Lucas and Zelda as a team isnt a very reliable one. It wont usually always work on good pairs like the high tiers usually have.
If you do spend tiem on this pairing I would suggest.

Keep most of the head on fighting to Zelda, Lucas should be ready to punish anyone who tries to attack her or himself if need be. PKT2 despite it being easier to hit with, Its only something you want to throw out as a mixup liek PK Freeze. Both have pretty good racking and killing options so you can vice verse on your roles to better suit your individ match ups (But don't forget their is still two enemies) Theres also the Din Healing trick of course which can help out if your Lucas is playing the Finisher.

The cons of this team is due to the fact your both easy to kill, Lucas in 1 v 2 will usually fail because the characters can just grab release infinite him untill his percent is KO level (In temas this is easier to perform since they can take turns Grab Releasing by having Lucas caught in the middle) Zelda on her own is actually not that difficult with her smashes and nair but alas the lag will result in some severe punishments. Zelda has a very mediocre recovery compared to Lucas's good recovery, Not much help in that department. And Both of them cant compliment eachothers attacks unless its out of a grab which anyone can do with Zelda.

Overall I dont recommend this team for any sort of competitive doubles. However its still a pretty average team I guess.

 

[n88]

Lucas sounds like a bad partner to me, because they both struggle against many of the same characters. He's not as bad a teammate as some (Snake), but still not good.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I don't think Lucas and Zelda are a bad team, then again, I don't think that Lucas and Zelda are a reliable team. Reliability to the actual effectiveness of the characters are different.

Overall, I think Lucas as a compatible teammate is pretty good. He's higher than most of the lower tier characters like Ness or Sonic. Whether or not he complements Zelda is really up to question since I doubt people have actually experienced played against and playing as this team, so really, it's unknown, and can only really be known until we get to see someone play this combo.

 

[KayLo!]

Lucas sounds like a bad partner to me, because they both struggle against many of the same characters. He's not as bad a teammate as some (Snake), but still not good.

Wait..... what? Snake a bad teammate?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Something I just thought of and is probably irrelevant is that if either Lucas or Zelda screws up and is about to hit the other with PK Freeze/Din's Fire, they can still whip out Nayru's Love/PSI Magnet to avoid collateral damage. (If Lucas absorbs Din's Fire, does the hitbox vanish or can it still hit someone else?)

*slinks away*

 

[stealth3654]

Can Lucas do PKT2 across the ground while Zelda is doing a Dthrow and hit the opponent?

 

[MeLL0W]

Something I just thought of and is probably irrelevant is that if either Lucas or Zelda screws up and is about to hit the other with PK Freeze/Din's Fire, they can still whip out Nayru's Love/PSI Magnet to avoid collateral damage. (If Lucas absorbs Din's Fire, does the hitbox vanish or can it still hit someone else?)

*slinks away*

No the hitbox of Din's will not dissapear if absorbed by magnet which is why it can be a good way to support a Lucas thats being ganged up on as he absorbs it and magnet cancels it for an escape method. (If you time it right and only when on the ground if your going to Magnet canel)

Can Lucas do PKT2 across the ground while Zelda is doing a Dthrow and hit the opponent?

I tested and sure enough it does not work and hits Zelda right along with (Opponent) and himself. However it may be possible for Zelda to DI out of it but thats harder to test since I only have two hands. xD

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Thanks for your helpful input Lucas mains!

I tested and sure enough it does not work and hits Zelda right along with (Opponent) and himself. However it may be possible for Zelda to DI out of it but thats harder to test since I only have two hands. xD

But since PKT2 also hits the opponent that can be used for some sacrificial damage or KOs. There´re hardly any situations where that would be a good idea though

 

[AzNfinesse]

Lucas sounds like a bad partner to me, because they both struggle against many of the same characters. He's not as bad a teammate as some (Snake), but still not good.

i'll get to this one when snake comes up as a discussion.

as for lucas...not the greatest combination out there. Lucas's SH game and zelda's Anti-air game will have these two running into each other. On top of that, both of these characters are pretty much killers. Yes, they can rack up damage, but there are better partners out there that can rack up insane damage (Pika, Snake, MK, Marth, and so on) and utilize zelda's insane kill moves to their maximum. They're not a horrible team, and I can see this team winning matches, I just can't see this team as a successful one.

 

[Darkmusician]

Lucas sounds like a bad partner to me, because they both struggle against many of the same characters. He's not as bad a teammate as some (Snake), but still not good.

Snake is a far better partner that Lucas could ever hope to be.