Yoshi v. Fox

Shiri · May 5, 2009

This is the thread for discussion on the Yoshi v. Fox matchup.

Poltergust · May 5, 2009

I... have no idea where to start on this one.

...Use Egg Lay often? :dizzy:

King Yo Lu De · May 5, 2009

Fox's weaknest is usually the edge or off the edge. Use many grabs to push him toward it, but be careful of his B-down ! When he's off the edge, he'll try to do an Up-B or Side-B. If he does up -b, you could attack him using the down -a in midair on him, then do your kick to push him farther away. If he does his side-b toward the edge, stand backand get ready to grab him when he's on the platform not the edge, or when he's about to get back on, hit him with your eggs . If your not near the edge, be patient and trick him with different moves. Oh yeah, be careful while your off the edge !! That's all I got to say... hope it helps !!

Airborne · May 5, 2009

when he's approaching from above, pivot grabs are your best friend, due to the fact that fox can combo into several things with his dair. so, you can't really be punished.
pressuring is too good against this guy; there's absolutely no need to approach.
like KYLD said, fox is trash offstage, if you know how to punish everything he can do to get back on stage... the most fun/funniest thing to do is to jab-cancel->dtilt him out of his side-b when trying to recover... pushes him farther away, or he'll screw himself over by trying to avoid the dtilt even more...

shine is a *****.

also, his usmash can kill at about 105 or so and up on final, so i hate it... -.-
i really don't know much about fox to tell you the truth
=\ sowwy i tried though

Poltergust · May 5, 2009

Uh, camping won't work. His reflector basically stops our camping, so we HAVE to approach him.

That said, it's not really hard to approach him, actually. Just be aware of his grabs and follow-ups.

Metatitan · May 5, 2009

can we get a fox main in here plz? one thats played a proshi as well, meaning they've played either bwett, acey, stocky, scatty or pride?

Airborne · May 5, 2009

Poltergust said:
Uh, camping won't work. His reflector basically stops our camping, so we HAVE to approach him.

That said, it's not really hard to approach him, actually. Just be aware of his grabs and follow-ups.

well, we'll just FOLLOW UP with eggs, rather than camp. and i only camp against marth, so pressuring is that mid-long range to me, when they're trying to approach and are getting eggs to the face. =P

Metatitan said:
can we get a fox main in here plz? one thats played a proshi as well, meaning they've played either bwett, acey, stocky, scatty or pride?

yeah i made this thread look mega noob =\

Shiri · May 5, 2009

Never played Fox before.

I have no idea what they do, even though I use him a lot.

I would imagine he plays just like Melee for this matchup. Run around, be annoying, laser lots, dash attacks when Yoshi is landing, then just camp the upsmash. I would imagine Fox camps upsmash pretty hard in this matchup, actually.

Airborne · May 5, 2009

Shiri said:
Never played Fox before.

I have no idea what they do, even though I use him a lot.

I would imagine he plays just like Melee for this matchup. Run around, be annoying, laser lots, dash attacks when Yoshi is landing, then just camp the upsmash. I would imagine Fox camps upsmash pretty hard in this matchup, actually.

yeah, just like how most yoshis camp usmash. =P
except we have more opportunities to kill...
seriously though, all foxes i've faced, which have sucked, camp teh usmash....

Poltergust · May 5, 2009

Fox can really only kill with his up-smash anyways, but that's really all he needs. I hate it. >_<

Metatitan · May 5, 2009

he has other finishers lol. f smash, d smash, bair, uair.... i think thats it but thats more than we have

Shiri · May 5, 2009

Back air is legit.

If you die to the others, it's your fault. Fox can hit with them, but unless you're playing on the edge of Battlefield and have a bad case of roll DI, you're not supposed to be dying to the others. I doubt any serious Fox players will expect to KO reliably with the moves you've listed, save for back air, which has unexpectedly good KO power.

Poltergust · May 5, 2009

B-air will rarely hit, u-air is obvious and SDI-able, and f-smash is not a good kill move. D-smash can also work, though. But by the time d-smash would kill Fox could have killed you 30% ago with his up-smash. XD

Seriously, up-smash *****.

Shiri · May 5, 2009

Even stale upsmashes KO ridix early.

I have to respectfully disagree regarding his back aerial, though. It's good and even though it's not a go-to move, it's got the power to KO reliably and even if it's used for just a few more than average surprise KOs, it's worth noting, I think.

That's all I know about the matchup, though, LOL. He's got a few KO moves and lasers and running and yeah. Anybody else with any actual experience should post so I can see what happens here, haha.

VSC.D-Torr · May 5, 2009

I hate Fox.

Deleted member · May 6, 2009

Definately one of yoshis worst matchups. Heres the deal:

Fox has supa quick camping, meaning he can basically run from anywhere on stage into a safe SHDL to rack up damage. This puts a ton of pressure and the damage adds up, especially since yoshi cant camp fox.
Fox dies super early off stage but rising fair protects him, so get creative with edge guards, eggs are good to get rid of jump, then nair.

Fox can bait airdodges then DJ shine spike. Its depressing. Rising uair can sometimes do the trick.
Dair is just dair, too good lol. Fox trot away.

Fox is easy to combo, so abuse that, and go for early kills. Dtilt outranges him on the ground, so thats a good tool.

65:35 fox.

Yosheon · May 8, 2009

Yeah, it's best to just find a way to lure him near the edge and/or off the stage. He has a fast falling speed, so egg lay would be an effective choice.

Metatitan · May 8, 2009

all i know really is that we're one of the few characters not to have some awesomely cheap combo on poor ole fox, chars like pikachu just **** him too hard xD

YOSHssb · Jun 2, 2009

burntsocks said:
Definately one of yoshis worst matchups. Heres the deal:

Fox has supa quick camping, meaning he can basically run from anywhere on stage into a safe SHDL to rack up damage. This puts a ton of pressure and the damage adds up, especially since yoshi cant camp fox.
Fox dies super early off stage but rising fair protects him, so get creative with edge guards, eggs are good to get rid of jump, then nair.

Fox can bait airdodges then DJ shine spike. Its depressing. Rising uair can sometimes do the trick.
Dair is just dair, too good lol. Fox trot away.

Fox is easy to combo, so abuse that, and go for early kills. Dtilt outranges him on the ground, so thats a good tool.

65:35 fox.

I disagree. My best smash friend is a Fox main (has been since the original Smash on the 64 like me with Yoshi). We're too evenly matched for the match-up to be as bad as G&W. If you guys want, I can try and get my smash partner to write some stuff. We've got multiple matches in the video thread so you can check 'em out if you doubt me. I'm sure both of us can discuss and reach a general consensus on what to do and what not to do. You just have to know what to do against Fox because he's similar to Yoshi in that you can easily get ***** by him if you don't know what to do. I'll discuss with my friend and we can try to reach a conclusion but here's my proposed match-up:

55:45 Fox

Delta-cod · Jun 2, 2009

I've played a couple of Foxes, but I'm not sure how good they are. Here's some of my experience anyways.

Foxes love using their dair. It combos into many things and utilt chains and smashes and whatnot. However, I've been able to shield the follow up to dairs when they hit me, as long as I don't trip. I'm not sure if this is the player's error or not, and it could also be some WiFi lag issues, since that's where all my competitive play comes from (curse you lack of transportation.) He can grab you out of the shield, but I'd say it's better to be grabbed by Fox than eat an Usmash or utilt chain.

When Fox is offstage I like to egg him. I've never been able to successfully gimp him by going out after him. I can also never dair his up-B. I might be doing it wrong, but any advice on that would be useful.

Fox also falls fast, and I've been thinking about whether or not we could get an uthrow chain on him by grabbing his landings or not. I haven't played any Foxes recently to try this out, but I figure it may be helpful.

Deleted member · Jun 2, 2009

Yoshissb, he doenst play the matchup campy enough.

YoshiIslander77z · Jun 2, 2009

if u can stop the drill constently then this match up should be alot more even. fox is pretty fast in the air tho we need some foxes to come argue wit us

Delta-cod · Jun 2, 2009

I don't think Fox is as fast in the air as he is in his aerial height. His fall speed and DJ give him pretty good lift and he can shine stall to screw up our timing. I've missed so many uairs because of that stupid shine stall. >_<

Metatitan · Jun 2, 2009

YoshiIslander77z said:
if u can stop the drill constently then this match up should be alot more even. fox is pretty fast in the air tho we need some foxes to come argue wit us

I dont think drill is the main problem. Btw I asked the fox boards to come here.

Deleted member · Jun 2, 2009

Fox forces yoshi to do unsafe things because of SHDl, and then punishes way too hard. Thats why he wins so bad.

EdreesesPieces · Jun 2, 2009

I think Yoshi definitely loses to Fox when Fox is camping, and you can die pretty early as everyone has been saying. However, I find it easy to edgeguard Fox. I've played Champ's fox a couple of times with Yoshi, and it's not extremely hard to gimp him one or two times a match, which gives yoshi a huge competitive Edge on the matchup. This is balanced by Fox beating Yoshi in other aspects that everyone is talking about in the thread, so I think it's something close to even honestly =P

(Do not recover from under the ledge and be careful with ECE's since he might go for a shine spike, if you recovery from under the ledge do it only if you already have a jump saved)

What I do is egg toss at an angle that either takes away the sky or takes away the ledge, and down air or up air the spot he's going to forward B. It's a pretty good way to get a down air in. Release grab to full hop or double jumped down air is good too, he's just in a real bad spot anytime he's recovering. It's not gauranteed but he's gotta jump away from the stage. Take advantage of his sucky recovery, and unlike Falco it's not a risk since he can't spike ya.

Zhamy · Jun 2, 2009

Right, so none of us Foxes play any really good Yoshis, and it seems none of you Yoshis play any really good Foxes. I figure our best bet, then, is for both sides to more or less explain their tools and see how they mesh. (Read: Lots of arguing.)

From the Yoshis I have played, though, this is in Fox's favor. By how much is the question, it seems.

How do you guys think Yoshi does against Fox in:

Close Range?
Mid Range?
Long Range?
Fox offstage, trying to recover?
Yoshi offstage, trying to recover?

I figure we can bounce off the discussion from there.

(Also Dragonic Trot to Dragonic Reverse to Reverse Aerial Egg Lay to chaingrab release to spike. 0:100 in Yoshi's favor GG ^_^)

Poltergust · Jun 2, 2009

Well, I'm not ready to discuss how Fox does at different ranges, but I'm pretty sure Yoshi has an easier time gimping Fox than the other way around. He's no Wolf, but his recovery is still pretty bad because of how predictable it is. If he is ever forced to use his up-B, he should NEVER recover back. His Fox Illusion also gets beat out by d-air, so recovery is just really bad for Fox and he should try to recover as quickly as possible before things get ugly.

For Fox gimping Yoshi, his d-air (not fast-falled, of course) can force an Egg Tossing Yoshi to double-jump. However, he really can't do anything else since he can't stay over the edge for a long time. Also, trying to go for a Shine-spike would usually get you egged, but it can be worth it if you catch the Yoshi off-guard. Fox has no answers to a Yoshi recovering high, though. He may jump high, but he falls too fast for floaty Yoshi. Not to mention that he'd get d-aired if he manages to reach Yoshi in the air.

One more thing. If you haven't learned how to use Egg Lay effectively, this match-up is worth learning it. Egg Lay just OWNS Fox if you can get it off the ledge. If they don't act quickly enough the egg alone may kill them, and if they jump out then you can d-air them.

Now, that said I believe this match-up lies between the 45:55 Fox - 55:45 Yoshi range. It's hard to tell...

Zhamy · Jun 2, 2009

Fox's recovery is not as terrible as it seems on paper, and most of the time, Fox will be recovering either straight at the ledge or high above the stage (thanks to shine stalling and rising Fair, which respectively give him much more airtime and a huge boost in height). Firefox will rarely be used, if ever, and gimping Fox isn't nearly as easy as it was in Melee. I don't think either character has an especially good time gimping the other, but I think your perception of Fox's recovery is a little skewed.

Poltergust · Jun 2, 2009

I know that Firefox will rarely be used (why use it if you can use Fox Illusion instead, right?), but I said that if he is forced to use it he shouldn't recover back since Yoshi's d-air easily beats it. I also know how Fox's f-air (somehow) makes Fox rise higher. However, his below-average air-speed may force him to use his side-B more often than he wants to. Out of all of Yoshi's moves, I think only his f-smash sends Fox at such an angle that he doesn't need to use either Firefox or Fox Illusion to recover. With his other moves you need to be careful.

Of course, if you can recover high, then do so. Although Yoshi has a deadly u-air (especially against someone as light as Fox), Fox should be relatively safe if he predicts Yoshi and Shines/fastfalls at the right times. Although, this kind of thing would technically fall under mindgames, so let's avoid talking about this scenario since it's completely dependent on the players.

EdreesesPieces · Jun 2, 2009

EdreesesPieces said:
What I do is egg toss at an angle that either takes away the sky or takes away the ledge, and down air or up air the spot he's going to forward B. It's a pretty good way to get a down air in.

Zhamy said:
Fox will be recovering either straight at the ledge or high above the stage (thanks to shine stalling and rising Fair, which respectively give him much more airtime and a huge boost in height). Firefox will rarely be used, if ever, and gimping Fox isn't nearly as easy as it was in Melee.

I actually think gimping Fox is easier (relative to how well you can gimp the rest of the cast) because once he's under the stage he's a goner if you do it properly. (At least with Yoshi) This is because his Firefox makes him lean backwards as he falls down after using it, rather than forwards in Melee. It's not super easy by any means, but if you use eggs properly, you can control the zone in which Fox will recover. Much how Yoshi mains always use Egg to get in up airs, upsmashes and pivot grabs, against Fox you want to use eggs to create bad situations for his recovery. If he shines your egg you get a FREE up air. A lot of characters deal with egg zoning during recovery by going low under the stage where eggs can't travel, but Fox doesn't have this option if he doesn't want to get spiked.

I have experience playing Champ, a Fox player who has been ranked in Socal, and defeated many ranked players in Socal. It was definitely hard fighting him, but he's scared ****less when I'm edgeguarding him.

I just approach this matchup like I did against Falco with Peach in Melee: He destroys me when fighting, but I can win the matchup even when he deals 3 times the amount of damage I do if I perfect my edgeguarding. I think that's the way to go here - the best way to defeat Fox players as Yoshi.

It's hard to assign a ratio, because it really depends because both characters hurt the other in such different ways it's hard to weight the two together. I don't disagree with anything that's been Fox's ability to hurt Yoshi, I just think Yoshi can deal all that damage back in the form of edgeguarding. It's kind of like Yoshi vs Meta reversed.

Airborne · Jun 2, 2009

hey guys, i'll ask bowyer to do some friendlies at the MWC championship on june 20th, since he's getting good with fox in an accelerated fashion, as i plan to with yoshi over the summer. i'm also trying to go to louisville for a weekly tournament, so i can ask paladin for some friendlies possibly as well. =P

edit: lolz at edrees quoting himself.

Zhamy · Jun 2, 2009

Ah, I see what you're saying. But for the most part, I think we agree - Fox does better than Yoshi on stage, but offstage, Fox has a difficult time recovering. I wish I knew more about the matchup, but I haven't played nearly enough Yoshis to make a snap judgment. I still think it's slightly in Fox's favor, though.

Poltergust · Jun 3, 2009

Yes, you're right. Fox is overall better against Yoshi while on the stage. Aerial-wise... it's kind of iffy. I can't really comment on that.

Zhamy · Jun 3, 2009

In conclusion:

Dragonic Trot to Dragonic Reverse to Reverse Aerial Egg Lay to chaingrab release to spike. 0:100 in Yoshi's favor GG ^_^

Really, though, Fox has trouble in mid-range, as he does against most characters. Especially with Yoshi's aerial mobility, that's more or less what you want to be focusing on against Fox. Can Yoshi do sort of what Wario/Jigglypuff do in aerial spacing/camping?

Zephil · Jun 3, 2009

Poltergust said:
I know that Firefox will rarely be used (why use it if you can use Fox Illusion instead, right?), but I said that if he is forced to use it he shouldn't recover back since Yoshi's d-air easily beats it. I also know how Fox's f-air (somehow) makes Fox rise higher.

I also agree with all that has been discused already... on stage: Fox>Yoshi but outside: Yoshi>Fox. The best way to kill fox is with an excellent edgeguard game which Yoshi has, the good thing for fox is that he has 3 different ways of recovering: illusion, firefox, and foxcopter which increases fox second jump A LOT... he can recover just with it... eggs are really useful to pressure him outside but remember that he has reflector so use them correctly and don´t spam them. I don´t if Yoshi´s d-air beats firefox but firefox has a lot of priority so I am not sure (if somebody already tested it and is true then I apologize in advance)

Also even when fox combos as hell remember that Yoshi is heavy and fox is so ****ing light that is sad so killing him with u-air at 80% is very possible... I think this matchup is 50-50... both of them have their good aspects and the ones to worry in this matchup so it all depends of the players imo...

Btw... FTW Yoshi!! I don´t main him but I use him a lot... is so **** fun!! :laugh:

M@v · Jun 3, 2009

If fox camps the #### out of yoshi, there isn't much he can do. From what little yoshi exp i have, I've never had much of hard time making it back to the stage. At the same time, I rarely ever gimp yoshi thanks to his super armor frames on the jump. Basically, if Fox camps, he wins without much issue. If he trys to make stuff happen with approaches, yoshi's bair can usually stop it. So, if the fox plays this matchup correctly, Im guessing the 60:40 Fox range. More later, Im tired D:

HiddenBowser · Jun 3, 2009

Airborne said:
hey guys, i'll ask bowyer to do some friendlies at the MWC championship on june 20th, since he's getting good with fox in an accelerated fashion, as i plan to with yoshi over the summer. i'm also trying to go to louisville for a weekly tournament, so i can ask paladin for some friendlies possibly as well. =P

I'll play against ya, but I'm going to be focusing on my MK until the tourney, cause I want to win this thing... and so my fox will probably be about the same that it was last tourney... though I did 2 stock most people there who placed 13th or worse, so my fox won't be that bad

Delta-cod · Jun 3, 2009

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:
If fox camps the #### out of yoshi, there isn't much he can do. From what little yoshi exp i have, I've never had much of hard time making it back to the stage. At the same time, I rarely ever gimp yoshi thanks to his super armor frames on the jump. Basically, if Fox camps, he wins without much issue. If he trys to make stuff happen with approaches, yoshi's bair can usually stop it. So, if the fox plays this matchup correctly, Im guessing the 60:40 Fox range. More later, Im tired D:

I've never dealt with a truly camping Fox, but isn't it possible to sneak some eggs in while you're busy lasering? From my experience I've been able to egg a Fox that starts to laser me and get him to use his Reflector, where I'll just lob an egg and then run in for a follow up. I'm pretty sure Fox will win in plain out camping since the laser damage will be greater than egg damage, but this makes approaching a lot easier.

M@v · Jun 3, 2009

Delta-cod said:
I've never dealt with a truly camping Fox, but isn't it possible to sneak some eggs in while you're busy lasering? From my experience I've been able to egg a Fox that starts to laser me and get him to use his Reflector, where I'll just lob an egg and then run in for a follow up. I'm pretty sure Fox will win in plain out camping since the laser damage will be greater than egg damage, but this makes approaching a lot easier.

Not if the fox shdls and shls. There is no landing lag, so he can just shine the eggs when they get to him.

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