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Yoshi v. Fox

Delta-cod

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I figured as much. None of the Foxes I've played SHDL, so that's where I was coming from.

Does the Shine have lag on reflection? Maybe it'd be possible to approach with ETS, but by throwing the eggs at an angle where even if reflected, they wouldn't hit Yoshi, allowing a safer approach to punish the lag. I'm not too sure on Foxes that SHDL though, so I could be wrong.
 

Zhamy

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Does the Shine have lag on reflection?
It does, but don't count on it. Within the first 3 frames of reflecting something, Fox can (roll, jump, or shield)cancel his Shine, and it's pretty easy to do on reaction. "Egg coming my way, giant dinosaur about to try to attack me, OKAY!"

Strictly speaking, Fox outcamps Yoshi.
 

Delta-cod

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It does, but don't count on it. Within the first 3 frames of reflecting something, Fox can (roll, jump, or shield)cancel his Shine, and it's pretty easy to do on reaction. "Egg coming my way, giant dinosaur about to try to attack me, OKAY!"

Strictly speaking, Fox outcamps Yoshi.
Just like PSI Magnet then, huh. So shining the egg could lead directly into more SHDL. That sucks.

I'd like to say that aiming the egg so it'd hit the air where you're jumping would be better, but I'm not sure quite how reliable that is. Still, if we can get you to reflect in the air, you can't do much out of the shine, right?

Otherwise I'm sure we just have to figure out a way to approach SHDL.
 
D

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The only way yoshi can win is if he gets some gimps, and since i dont have any consistant fox players (i played TKD's fox back when he played fox), i cant really see how that affects stuff.
 

Airborne

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I'll play against ya, but I'm going to be focusing on my MK until the tourney, cause I want to win this thing... and so my fox will probably be about the same that it was last tourney... though I did 2 stock most people there who placed 13th or worse, so my fox won't be that bad :)
yay! ^.^ could i get some games in with your mk as well? i lack the MU exp. =\
 

MX778

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I'm a Fox main.

I gotta' say..The eggs are only alot better when Fox is off stage rather than him being on stage cause' of his reflector. Not much I can say though since Fox is a close range fighter.

Watch out for his U-tilt also. It's a doozy. :p
 

DarkAura

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im a fox and yoshi main so i know whats going on in this match up...

Fox will NEVER use his reflecter to reflect eggs because it's usless and punishable we can easily out camp yoshi so it's more likely we will use stationary lasers or approach with SHDLs.
Yoshi will easily be able to gimp fox (like every other character in the cast) really if you see use charging Fire Fox run off stage and Nair us because it will give the farthest knock back... or if your a fancy *** you can spike.

Kill power:
Yoshi wins... Yoshi's Fsmash and Uair kill potential **** fox's Bair and Usmash only because fox is a lightweight and yoshi is a heavyweight. You could kill us as low as 70-90% where as we could have to wait until 100-120% unless our Usmash isn't stale in that case yoshi is boned.

Combo Potential
You may think "all we gotta do is stay away from those Dairs!" wrong... Fox has a lot more set up's than just dair. Yoshi's worst fear offstage from fox would either be a shine spike or a drill shine because with proper timing and positioning a shine spike can kill you after your double jump and a drill shine can easily kill you even if you still have your double jump. in this case i would say yoshi is better at racking up damage because yoshi's attack's flow very nicely into each other and since fox is a fast faller he is easily juggled by Side tilts at low percentages and you can shut him down with Bairs

Overall
Personally i think Thats it's a 50 50 match up. Yoshi can't camp against fox but he can combo the crap out of him. They have equal recovery and around equal killing potential so i can't see either player having an advantage in this match up
 

YoshiIslander77z

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idk but ive been power shielding drill > to smashes. sh drill to a a dsmash or up samsh are not garunteed right. eggs should be used if hes obviously gonna jump and dair, off stage, or at a very far distance(sometimes). killing with fsmash is big as it kills alot ealier then everything else
 

Delta-cod

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I'm fairly confident that dair > Smash is only guaranteed on the trip. Otherwise even Yoshi can shield in time. I'd rather take the grab than a smash.

:027:
 

Poltergust

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It's not weird for Yoshi to powershield it. He shield comes out in the same frame as everyone else's: frame 1.

:069:
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: Down air to smashes only works at certain percent thresholds, certain cancel windows, and from trips.

I think the best way to deal with down air is if they've caught you not in the middle (positionally) of the move, then you should be able to tap DI out to either side. If you are too far in the middle to DI out, just hold the shield button and you will be able to defend against pretty much anything. Be ready to spotdodge random down air grabs, however. :D

I will try to see if I can see at which percents down aerial leads to smashes.
 

BoJangles

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Right, so none of us Foxes play any really good Yoshis, and it seems none of you Yoshis play any really good Foxes. I figure our best bet, then, is for both sides to more or less explain their tools and see how they mesh. (Read: Lots of arguing.)
Zeton and Bwett have played each other many times. That's cream of the crop from both sides, there. :)
 

Jiggy

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Fox is... an annoying fight for me.

It might have to do with the whole down air to up smash KO. I hate it when they do that.

I personally find that your up airs need to be timed perfectly for this, otherwise you're boned.
 

pwiito

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"Fox will NEVER use his reflecter to reflect eggs because it's usless and punishable we can easily out camp yoshi so it's more likely we will use stationary lasers or approach with SHDLs. "

This ^^

throwing eggs should be good, don't spam tho, egg>grab

Fox is easy to combo at high % and he's easy to kill, he's light
 

Delta-cod

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im a fox and yoshi main so i know whats going on in this match up...

Fox will NEVER use his reflecter to reflect eggs because it's usless and punishable we can easily out camp yoshi so it's more likely we will use stationary lasers or approach with SHDLs.
Why not use the reflector? IIRC you can SH out of it without any of the lag, which allows you to keep your momentum going with SHDLs or whatever you like.

Also, from my experience, when you reach kill percentages, playing a more aerial game will have you living much longer. Properly spaced retreating bairs will make it hard for Fox to set up a Dair>Smash on you, which really hurts his kill potential. Rising aerials have also worked well for me, as long as you make sure not to eat an aerial as you fall back down.
 

Silent Beast

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Also, from my experience, when you reach kill percentages, playing a more aerial game will have you living much longer. Properly spaced retreating bairs will make it hard for Fox to set up a Dair>Smash on you, which really hurts his kill potential. Rising aerials have also worked well for me, as long as you make sure not to eat an aerial as you fall back down.
Eating an upsmash is a far greater danger on landing than eating an aerial. Is Fox not fast enough to punish a properly spaced bair with a running upsmash?
 

Airborne

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most foxes will be relying on their running usmash to do the trick when you're at 100% or so. otherwise, if you're playing defensively to the point the can get a smash in, they may try the dair setup or try to build enough damage for bair to do the trick... expect anything from fox; he has quite a few things to take is out...
 

YOSHssb

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I probably have THE most Fox/Yoshi experience of any Yoshi here. My best friend is a Fox main and has been since the day the game came out and we've been studying and playing the match-up for well over a year. I stand by my experience and say the match-up is 55:45 Fox. The main reason/s I don't say the match-up is 50:50 is because the reflector can break up Yoshi's combos and Fox is so much faster that unless you predict most of what he does, Yoshi gets punished easily.

Fox's up-tilt only hits twice before you can get out of it. The Yoshi just has to jump and about 25% of the time, Yoshi can get a neutral aerial off in the middle of the hit-stun. What I usually do is try a neutral aerial after the first up-tilt and if it doesn't work, then I jump out of it while absorbing the 2nd hit.

Fox only has 3 reliable kill moves against Yoshi: back aerial, down smash, and up smash (of course). The down smash is usually done after a down-aerial connects and Yoshi is near the edge. The up-smash is used as dash, follow-up to the down aerial, and jab-cancel. Proper DI and Yoshi can live a fresh up smash at 115% Any higher and you have to hope the move is decayed slightly or you'll die. The back aerial is insanely quick and you just have to predict it to avoid it. Proper DI can have you living at about 120%

Keeping pressure on Fox will keep the laser camping down to a minimum. Yoshi cannot outcamp Fox period so don't even try. Ledge camping on the other hand is beautiful. Especially if you vary the lob of the egg throws so that they hit at different times. The reflector makes Fox have a little bit of lag afterwards if he reflects something. So a viable strategy that I've used MANY times is to throw an egg to bait the reflector. If he reflects it, you can counterattack before he can recover from the stun.

If a Yoshi can grab a Fox out of his 2nd jump over the edge, it's a guaranteed KO. Once the Fox breaks out, you can jump off stage and do a down aerial which will push him low enough to where even if he uses the up-B again, he won't make it back to the edge. This is easier said than done though, because most Fox players will combine the 2nd jump with the forward aerial to get the added height and protection. The priority on this move (compared to Yoshi) is pretty good and is hard to stop, but you can time a grab/forward aerial to hit him out of it.

Mainly, a Yoshi just has to stay close to keep pressure and to avoid the damage from short hop double laser camping. The hard thing is knowing what to do against each attack in close range.

The down aerial should be shielded and depending on what the Fox does, should be followed with a grab, side dodge, or roll. If the Fox short-hops again, then another down aerial is coming and you should roll out of the way or you'll risk getting caught in a loop that'll severely weaken your shield and cause you to do something you normally shouldn't. If the fox lands next to you, a side-dodge is probably the best bet because he'll most likely follow it with a grab, up-tilt, or up-smash and all 3 give you the opportunity to counterattack before he recovers. A shield grab can be done but only if you buffer it and absorb the final hit from the down aerial. Since Yoshi doesn't have a chaingrab against Fox and his throws don't do that much damage, I'd avoid this unless you're near the edge and want to put the Fox in a bad position off the stage.

Whenever Yoshi egg-lays Fox, the Yoshi should sprint the opposite way and do a sliding up-smash to hit the egg. No matter how fast the Fox breaks out of the egg, this is guaranteed, and with proper spacing, you'll be just out of range of his attacks when he breaks out, so you'll be safe.

I think that's all I can think of at the moment.

I still stand by my experience and say it's 55:45 Fox
 

Delta-cod

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Whoa, that was a good summary.

The one thing I need to say, however. Can't Fox cancel the lag after his reflector with a jump or roll? I remember seeing one of the Fox Mains saying so in this topic.

It does, but don't count on it. Within the first 3 frames of reflecting something, Fox can (roll, jump, or shield)cancel his Shine, and it's pretty easy to do on reaction. "Egg coming my way, giant dinosaur about to try to attack me, OKAY!"
So, baiting the reflector with an egg really wouldn't work all that well, seeing as how the Fox can just reflect it and jump, shield, or roll away from the follow up.
 
D

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Hmm nice nice.
That sounds like a pretty good summery. Also, just like falco, u can grab him out of side b if he tries that to recover, then u gimp.
 

YOSHssb

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Hmm nice nice.
That sounds like a pretty good summery. Also, just like falco, u can grab him out of side b if he tries that to recover, then u gimp.
Yeah; and just like Falco, a neutral aerial beats the side-B if you're in the air and can't grab.

Fox and Yoshi are very similar in that if you don't know what to do against them, you're gonna get wrecked badly. Once you know what to do against Fox, the match-up's not bad at all.
 

YOSHssb

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Erm, I'd still like the fact that Fox can cancel his reflector to be mentioned. It does make it safe for him to reflect eggs.
You've mentioned it 3 times. I don't think it changes the overall match-up. Whenever I play Foxes, I typically throw eggs while they're recovering or while I'm camping from the ledge. Either scenario doesn't present a good reason to use that trick. If you find a Yoshi that spams eggs while both Yoshi and Fox are on the stage, then the Yoshi doesn't know the match-up and is trying to rack up damage desperately. The match-up is still 55:45
 
D

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Its only worth mentioning becuase you cant punish his reflector from the edge. Thats all.
Since he can really just hold reflector when u throw an egg and then shield cancel it to not get hit by whatever else u throw, being a rising aerial or w/e.

I think the matchup is worse but you seem to have more experience.
 

Delta-cod

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That was mainly my point. The way you typed it, it makes it seem that you can ALWAYS punish the reflector, which is false. Sorry if I seemed a little picky, I just want all the information to be accurate. =/
 

YOSHssb

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That was mainly my point. The way you typed it, it makes it seem that you can ALWAYS punish the reflector, which is false. Sorry if I seemed a little picky, I just want all the information to be accurate. =/
Yeah I understand, and sorry if I seemed like I was trying to put you down. It's just the way that I play, I typically only throw eggs when Fox is in the air, off the stage, or if I think he's going to try to attack me on the edge. I adore it when Fox is above me because I can pivot grab the down-aerial if I think it's coming, so if you jump out of the reflector when you're already in the air (for me at least) it gives me a better position and puts Fox in a worse position.

Its only worth mentioning becuase you cant punish his reflector from the edge. Thats all.
Since he can really just hold reflector when u throw an egg and then shield cancel it to not get hit by whatever else u throw, being a rising aerial or w/e.

I think the matchup is worse but you seem to have more experience.
And yeah, that goes back to what I was saying about Fox being similar to Yoshi. If you don't know what to do against him, you'll get wrecked, badly. But once you've played the match-up some, it's pretty much even.
 

Delta-cod

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Yeah I understand, and sorry if I seemed like I was trying to put you down. It's just the way that I play, I typically only throw eggs when Fox is in the air, off the stage, or if I think he's going to try to attack me on the edge. I adore it when Fox is above me because I can pivot grab the down-aerial if I think it's coming, so if you jump out of the reflector when you're already in the air (for me at least) it gives me a better position and puts Fox in a worse position.
Grab on landing is too good. I personally like doing an uthrow/dthrow and then regrabbing them when the land once more. I love Yoshi's grab.

But I believe you've killed the discussion on this MU, Yosh. XD

Case Closed.

 

ThePointingMan

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:yoshi: Back air is legit.

If you die to the others, it's your fault. Fox can hit with them, but unless you're playing on the edge of Battlefield and have a bad case of roll DI, you're not supposed to be dying to the others. I doubt any serious Fox players will expect to KO reliably with the moves you've listed, save for back air, which has unexpectedly good KO power.
I expect a kill with the others :dizzy: and I'm a Fox player... Up-smash is an amazingly good finisher, but the other ones mentioned above are great.
Anyways, I'd say I've fought a Proshi, just yesterday. I couldn't beat him, I think maybe it was cause his recovery time after being hit by my moves is to small, so he can hit me before I get more in.
 

MX778

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Like Polt said, we can't cap Fox cause' of his reflector.
Using B-air is a pretty safe approach as long as you're being unpredictable about it.

Another thing, being it the air is not a good idea for us Yoshis. Fox can simply stall in the air with the Shine and punish whatever we throw at him while he's doing it. One other reason we have to stay out of the air is because of the F-air and U-air, but I'm more worried about the F-air. As it completely ***** out 2nd jump's super armor.

One the ground, you'll be safe as long as you avoid getting grabbed or getting hit by his D-air. If you get hit by his D-air, prepared to get screwed over. lol.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: This matchup isn't as annoying as it used to be for me.

I've gotten much more patient with it and when you learn over time which trades benefit you (because I think trading is a necessary evil for this matchup), I think the matchup plays out more like a paper matchup than one that has too many twists and turns mid-game.
 

Z'zgashi

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I really dont know ANYTHING about this mu but imma play one this weekend and i might get some friendlies in. If i do ill share what i find out :)
 
D

Deleted member

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50:50

So much exp with Scatz. (Bigman)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAjUjgRcMXI
You should camp 100x more. And learn to SHTL. Changes the matchup dramatically.
Fox definately wins if they camp hard, its not a counter, but its kinda rough, and fox just beats yoshi in the places where it counts.

Edit: You also cant throw out kill moves randomly vs yoshis punishes. In fact, fox has enough guarenteed options where you should never throw out kill moves unless its a perfect read, where urs were guesses.
 
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