Zelda's Stage Discussion #10 -- Battlefield!

First Transformation

• Awkward and slanted layout can mess with the opponent's camp game and allow Zelda to weave in slightly easier. On a stock lead, she can avoid the camp game and camp back by simply not approachig, thus forcing the opponent to come to her.

• Leading on from this, a suitable camping spot is the left area. She can hide easily within the rock foundation there and she'll be protected from the front, forcing the opponent to tackle her head on.

• You cannot Usmash through the platforms, but you can harass yet again with nair and surprise uair. Space kicks every now and then also.

• The slant makes it difficult for opponents to SDI the Dtilt lock... use this to your advantage by trapping them here.

• SH Bair and Fair are enhanced due to the slant. Ensure you're on the lower part of the slant than your opponent, and you can sweetspot them OoS if someone were to hit your shield.

Second Transformation

• Spacious and great if you hold the lead.

• Statues shield you from effective camp games, whilst they also prolong your quite a few of your attacks, making the hitboxes longer lasting.

• Din's fire is not hindered by the statues, spam away from a good position.

• The awkward layout can allow the surprise uair to land with ease. Force opponents to hit the floor on higher platforms with a move like Usmash or any other vertical trajectory, and then begin to chase with uair if they fail to tech. It's a good position to be in.

• Beware of staying too close to the ledge. Whilst you can kill people early in this manner too, if you are caught too close to the side and are hit powerfully, expect to lose a stock.

• Don't forget you can move refresh here. Refresh with jabs as you want decay on this move in order to setup well for followups and also refresh your kill moves.

Third Transformation

• Essentially a lylat cruise/final destination hybrid.

• Try to camp the bottom slant. This will hinder camp games such as Falco's lasers, whilst allowing you duck beneath them. The slant also allows easier sweetspots via SH Bair and Fair. The Dtilt lock is also enhanced and is harder to escape.

A lengthy and subjective summary from the queen of jagged stages, iiiiit's J-LO

J-Lo! said:

Elaboration..... GO!!!

First Transformation (Roof):

PROS:

In some ways, I feel like the first transformation is one of the main reasons why Castle Siege is good for Zelda. The small size, platforms, and slants make it hard for traditional campers (Falco, Fox, Pikachu, etc.) to spam against you while also hindering their ability to run away. Zelda likes to push up on her opponents and keep them near her, and the first transformation is plenty cramped enough to aid you in that.

The platforms are also ideally placed, imo. Since Zelda doesn't approach aerially as much as other characters do, they help her more than they would another character. Full hopped/double jumped approaches become nearly impossible for other characters once you're safely camped beneath a platform. This cuts off your opponent's options to some degree, so if you know their character and know what their SH/ground approaches are, predicting how they'll come to you becomes much easier.

The platforms are also great for nairs & SH uairs, as always. Because the space is so cramped, I've knocked people from one platform to the other with nair (highly dependent on DI, mind you), then followed up with another nair.... it's too funny, lol. Walk-off bairs & fairs are also fun.

The slant in the middle can be a positive as well. If you dthrow with your back to the slant at low percentages, following up with usmash is slightly easier because of the shape of the stage. I dunno how to explain it.... basically, because the stage is higher on the other side of the slant, their DI'ing up won't matter as much because your usmash gets a vertical boost from the stage going upwards. This works for followups from jab, dash attack, and nair as well.

Dtilt is somewhat broken on the slant. If you catch them there, DI'ing away from it becomes a LOT harder for them.

The blastlines are close, so killing is easier. Uair kills are especially aided since they're easier to land here with the platforms arranged to your advantage. Moves that normally wouldn't kill (ftilt, bthrow, etc.) become more viable than usual.

Short version:

- Less space is good for Zelda
- Slant & platforms aid in avoiding camp
- Well-placed platforms are good for nair/uair/fair/bair
- Slant is beneficial for followups
- People die earlier, especially from uair, which is easier to land on this transformation
- Related to the above, this transformation gives Zelda more kill moves
- Dtilt on the slant is crazy good

CONS:

The ledges. Are stupid. Really, really stupid. They have lips that can catch you and make it **** near impossible to recover, but since we all play Zelda and have had to deal with her bad recovery for a long time now, good DI and recovery decisions will make the ledges a moot point. Just don't recover low. The good news is that the funky ledges screw with almost everyone, so it's more of a universal con than a Zelda-specific one.

Getting stuck on one of the platforms vs. certain characters can be a bad thing, but they're short enough that getting off is rarely a huge issue. As long as you don't miss a tech on one, platform **** shouldn't be a problem.

The small size means Zelda can die earlier as well, but her variety of kill moves makes this less of a problem for her than it is for other characters.

Also, large characters who excel in close-range combat where you actually want more space (ex: Bowser & Ike come to mind) may do better here.

Short version:

- Stupid ledges
- Zelda dies earlier too
- Getting stuck on the platforms can be bad
- Some bulky, longer-ranged characters may do better here than Zelda does

Transforming State ("Grey Stage"):

PROS:

Grabbing someone near one of the walk-offs at mid-high percentage pretty much spells their death. Same goes for fsmashes, dsmashes, etc. etc., but the same can be done to you, so be careful.

Other than that, it's just a flat stage. If you grab someone while the stage is changing, you'll automatically grab release during the actual point of transformation. I'm not sure if it's always an air release or not, but every time it's happened to me, I've air released. If you're quick enough (and depending on where the stage drops you), most people will be confused by the sudden release and give you an opportunity to dash-cancel a usmash on them (or dash attack or what have you).

Other notes on transformation shenanigans:

- When the stage transforms, the blastlines shrink similar to how they do on Delfino. Sending someone away with fsmash/usmash/throwing can kill them even if they look like they're not far enough.
- When the stage is going back to first transformation, STAY IN THE MIDDLE if you can, and try to send your opponent off to the sides. When it settles into the stage proper, they'll be off the edge and might get stage-gimped. I daired someone once right when the stage settled and got a spike because the floor had just disappeared. XD

Short version:

- Grabs & high knockback moves close to the walk-offs will get you early kills
- Grab releases during transformation often lead to free hits
- Transformation deaths and gimps can work in your favor if you stay aware
- Zelda can't get CG'd off the edges

CONS:

It's flat, so campers can try to take advantage of that. Luckily, this part doesn't last long, so don't focus on approaching.... just avoid as many projectiles as you can. Also, unless you're sure you can get the grab or fsmash near the edge, stay away from the walk-offs.

Short version:

- Campers can camp
- Walk-off/transformation deaths suck

Second Transformation (Statues):

PROS:

The stage everyone knows Castle Siege for.... the statues. This transformation is really pretty great for Zelda despite people saying LOLJOOCAN'TCAMP. The object isn't to camp here, it's to control the stage.

Speaking of camp, though, there are few projectiles that can go through the statues. Most people won't waste their time trying to break them down since the stage doesn't last forever, so you can pretty much count on them being there to stop incoming projectile spam. Plus for Zelda, since Din's goes through the statues, so if you ever do need to use it, at least you still have it at your disposal.

The platforms here are amazing.... it's uair heaven, and nair ***** anyone who thinks they can sit on the lower platform. The ideal position is right underneath the lowest platform. From here, you have complete control over the lower two platforms, you'll always be close enough to not get camped (since they can't camp you from the other sides of the statues), and if they get knocked onto one of the upper platforms, Din's will get them off real quick while they can't camp you back. Aerial approaches are also limited from the other character because of the lower platform. Drop-through uairs are sexy.

Because the bottom two platforms are stacked, walking off the top one into an fair/bair/nair can either get a kill (fair/bair) or start a combo (nair).

The walk-offs carry the same benefits and cautions as usual, except you can't be camped away from them because of the good ol' statues.

Jab the statues to refresh your moves, which is great for Zelda since her kill moves are plentiful and strong. The statues also extend hitboxes, so while this can leave you open if you whiff, committed aerial approaches from the opponent will fail once you have usmash out.... it'll last plenty long enough for them to have to fall into it. Staying around the statues for extended periods of time isn't a good idea, though.

Because the top two platforms slant up towards the middle, anyone up there is food for uair. They wanna drop through the platform? Uair up the butt. They wanna run/roll around? Uair up the butt. They wanna shield? Uair/Din's shield pressure. Their only good option is to jump off and try to time an airdodge through you, because most moves get beaten by uair. The real reason why it works so well on these particular platforms is that they can only go in one direction since the other way is a walk-off.

You can't get edgeguarded or gimped here because there's no ledge!

Short version:

- Campers can't effectively camp
- Zelda can take advantage of walk-offs with her powerful moves
- Jab statues to refresh moves (goes well with the above point)
- Ideal stage control point below the lowest platform
- Can't get gimped here, so bad recovery isn't a problem
- Nair/uair/Din's heaven
- Stacked platforms can give you surprise fair/bair KOs or nair combo-starts
- People stuck on one of the top two platforms will eat lots of free damage or a death
- Once they've above you, it's hard for them to touch the ground without taking lots of damage

CONS:

MrEh is right in that if your opponent has the lead, they can run away. However, if you position yourself underneath the lowest platform, it minimizes their approach options more than any other spot on this transformation does. If they wanna run around, guess what? Let them run around like an idiot unless you're really in danger of running out of time. If they're far away, use the advantage Din's has here (going through statues); if they're close, play extremely defensively and wait for any opportunity to get them above you, because once they're above you on this transformation, they're going to eat tons of damage before they get down if you can read them well.

Whiffing a move on the statues sucks and will probably get your punished. They're sort of close to the edge, too, so it could cost you a stock.

Walk-off shenanigans.

Like other characters, if you're stuck on one of the platforms, you can get ***** from underneath. However, a benefit Zelda has is that even though it's slow, FW can get you to the ground, and you have many directions to choose from. As long as you don't always FW straight down onto the ground, you can usually jump > FW to the bottom without getting too severely punished.

Short version:

- People can run away
- Walk-off deaths suck
- Whiffing on the statues will leave you very open, possibly to your death
- Getting stuck on the platforms is bad

Third Transformation (Tilting FD):

PROS:

It's a tilting FD with bumps. Similar to the slant on the first transformation, the bumps can make it hard for your opponent to DI out of dtilt strings and boost your usmash to help with followups. Other than that, the bump doesn't help much, but the dtilt thing is a pretty big plus.

The tilting helps in a similar way. If the stage is tilting up on their side, dtilts are easier to land in a row, and, yeah. Usmash followups from nair/dthrow/what have you.

Otherwise, it's like a smaller FD, so there's not much else to say. The smaller size helps Zelda keep close to her opponent, but the size difference isn't that helpful.

You can get some sexy SH uairs on this stage, though. You have to time it, but if you jump while the stage is tilting down underneath you, you can get a SH FF uair to hit where otherwise the hitbox wouldn't have time to come out. Hooray!

Also, dair (even the sourspot) can gimp people off-stage if you hit while the edge is tilting up.

Short version:

- Bump and tilting can aid dtilts and followups
- Smaller size keeps Zelda closer to her opponents
- Sexy surprise SH FF uair kills
- Sexy surprise dair gimps too!

CONS:

Tilting can **** recovery.
Camp from campers.
The bump can let some characters CG Zelda for one extra grab where they couldn't on a flat stage..... but that's extremely situational.

Characters:

BRING: Snake (grenade and mortar slide game are hindered), Fox, Falco, Wolf, Pikachu, Sonic, Pit, Ness, Lucas, Diddy, ICs, Falcon, Peach, Ivysaur, Samus, Sheik, ZSS, Jiggs (drill-rest interruption, go!)

DO NOT BRING: MK, Kirby, Bowser, Ike, Link, Marth, G&W if you can't see (the default color is annoyingly hard to keep track of), DK, Olimar

Overall:

I still think this stage is good for Zelda. It does not turn her into a good character (for people who might think I'm claiming that), and she still has a lot of the same problems she usually does, but if you learn the stage, you can work it to your advantage pretty well. The platforms are really well placed for her, and the level of stage control she has here, imo, is better than what you can expect on many other stages.

Aside from the last transformation, this stage favors grounded characters who like being under platforms. Zelda is a grounded character who likes being under platforms.

The main problem is getting used to the transformations and all the gimpy things here, like the lips on the first part, the transformations themselves, and the tilting on the last stage. But those things are not that bad, and once you learn how they work, you can work with them rather than complaining about them.

I give it an 7.5 or 8/10 as a Zelda stage.

I didn't read back over this for spelling or grammar or whatever, so if something needs clarification, let me know. I wrote it while talking to madd people on AIM, so I was sort of distracted.... @.@

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DISCUSSION #8 - POKEMON STADIUM ORIGINAL (1)

Neutral State

• Similar to pokemon stadium 2. Nothing really beneficial here except for platforms that you can pressure using Nair, Usmash, Uair and Utilt.

• The ledges are difficult to sweetspot on this stage. Make sure you DI up and recover from above the stage; you never want to rely on grabbing the edges.

JigglyZelda003 said:

PS1 has failtastic ledges and lots of fun areas.

one thing i really like about the stage is when it transitions and your standing on something like a platform you can get free Usmash "combos" because done right the last hit is cancelled and you can start it again.

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Water Transformation (Windmill)

• A lot of characters can get stuck in close proximity to Zelda when inside the windmill. This is your chance get chains of Usmashes in, as well as other moves you can chain togather that they may not be able to escape in time.

• The awkward layout of this transformation can net you some surprise kicks and uairs. Try to get the opponent in the air and chase their DI to bait them onto platforms and punish from there.

zeldspazz said:

Windmill is great if you both get caught in it, all her smashes are excellent in there

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AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:

That Windmill is like **** if you get an Up smash in. Play the territory to your advantages and you should be fine.

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sniperworm said:

I run over to the water and repeatedly Dsmash to splash water around (yes I know you can do it in the stream for the grass transformation, but there's not enough space).

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Fire Transformation

• This transformation tends to split the fighters up on the stage and cause a stalling position with one fighter on the left and the other on the right. If this happens, and you're on the right side, you can pressure with the large hitbox of Din's.

• There are lots of areas here in which you can get true dtilt locks, chains of Nayru's Love etc... and the opponent won't have anything to do about it. Try to bait the opponent into backing away close to a wall to set these up.

• The platforms to the left and right side are good for pressurising with Nairs and other anti-platform moves.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:

I like it because some of the transformation means that you can just camp and avoid projectiles/ stall.

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Rock Transformation

• Similar to the fire transformation in that it can create stalling situations and campfests.

• Lots of tight areas here that make Zelda very hard to approach. This transformation is when you can play most defensive - try to get the opponent in close proximity so they don't have much space to manoeuvre.

• Lots of setups here for true dtilt locks, as well as the good ol' platform pressure.

• Beware of the terrain on the right side... there's a part that does not allow you to roll or dash attack forward, almost like a bump was placed there.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:

some of the tighter areas when the stage transforms makes it really hard to approach zelda. Play the territory to your advantages and you should be fine.

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JigglyZelda003 said:

the rock, fire, and windmill even give free places to hide :3

the rock formation is like a free stalling area against quite a few characters w/ two spots to hide, one against the like of Zamus. even allows for some attempted camping w/ Dins in the middle w/ a shield.

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Grass Transformation

• Not much was said about this transformation - it has an akward layout with randomly placed platforms that allow Zelda to pressure with Nairs, Kicks and Uairs.

• Those that try to camp you on the ground with lots of projectiles will find it tricky if you platform camp on this transformation, or simply if you take refuge on one of the higher platforms.

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DISCUSSION #9 - LYLAT CRUISE

• Firstly, beware of your recovery here. The ledge will consistently screw with your teleport, so if you are to take the ledge, make sure the stage itself is flat, not slanted.

• Platforms, platforms, platforms... what more needs to be said? Setup for Zelda's aerials and platform pressure with constant Nairs.

• The slants can screw with certain projectiles and can mess with character spacing, including those that rely on autocancels or have projectiles that don't have curved trajectories.

• Fair and Bair OoS become more viable if you find yourself on the lower side of the slant than your opponent. This also applies to dtilt trips if you buffer Fair or Bair.

• The dip in the centre and the small hurtbox from Zelda's Dtilt can avoid projectiles when timed.

• Whatever you do... DON'T TELEPORT CANCEL. It is possible, but only when the stage is flat and not slanted.

zeldspazz said:

Platforms are good as long as your not on them, they set up nair and lightning kicks

But......

The ship tilting back and forth + the mad skinny ledge = have fun trying to recover

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Half-Split Soul said:

This stage has nice slant parts and low platforms that give Zelda lots of chances for D-tilt locks and aerial/U-smash poking. It also isn't big enough to make it impossible to deal with campers. The platforms also may help her approach some foes.

...Until she gets off-stage, that is. When that happens pretty much anybody can edgeguard her with little effort. And even if they can't the stage's weird ledges and tilting do the job for them.

It's also good to remember that most of the characters can also use the layout for their advantage just like Zelda, so she doesn't exactly dominate on-stage either. (I think that's the nicest way to say it)

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AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:

It can be a pain to recover on this stage. Kind of like the hell transformation on Seige. Beware of the shifting. It's kind of like a smaller BF which is good for Zelda since your opponent doesn't have much room to run. You can camp platforms against projectile spammers. The platform can be troublesome for larger characters. Upsmash or nair thru platforms. Overall not a bad stage but the tilt can wreck your recovery.

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Aerodrome said:

The platforms are generally best for nairs and sometimes surprise short hop uairs. U-smash doesn’t always hit though. It really depends on how far the ship has tilted.

Also, the ceiling is pretty high IIRC, so U-smash kills will be harder to do. So D-smash might be a better alternative.

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DISCUSSION #10 - BATTLEFIELD

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