7. Mr. Game & Watch- Sonic Counterpick/Ban discussion

Camalange · May 23, 2009

COUNTERPICKING AND BANNING

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Discussion 7: Peach

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Starter

Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination

Starter/Counter

Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1
Castle Siege

Counter

Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
Pirate Ship
PictoChat
Pokémon Stadium 2

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Characters

BANNED:
COUNTERPICK:

BANNED: Final Destination / Smashville
COUNTERPICK: Rainbow Cruise / Brinstar
A Diddy's best stage is generally Final Destination. No platforms for him to worry about getting in the air and juggled and allows him to do nanner tricks with ease. This is safe ban against Diddy. You may want to consider Smashville as well since many Diddy's are accostomed to having FD banned. RC and Brinstar will work well as counterpicks because it forces Diddy to enter the air and makes it very hard for him to gain any stage control with nanners or pick up his momentum. Sonic needs to rush down Diddy in the air on these stages.

BANNED:
COUNTERPICK:

BANNED: Norfair / Japes / Rainbow Cruise
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination / Smashville
*description soon*

BANNED:
COUNTERPICK:

BANNED:
COUNTERPICK:

:dedede:

BANNED: Pokémon Stadium 1, Delfino, Castle Siege, (Halberd)
COUNTERPICK: Yoshi's Island, Battlefield
The stages to ban are mainly stages with walkoffs or walls, which is terrible versus Dedede. Halberd can be bad, because of the extremely low ceiling. Also he has a really long CG here.
Yoshi's Island has the weird ground, which might give you that little frame where you can up-B out of the CG and Battlefield has a small ground where you can be CG'd, as well as a high ceiling. Wall of B-airs isn't that bad for Sonic, Spring out of it.

BANNED:
COUNTERPICK:

BANNED: Battlefield, Delfino Plaza
COUNTERPICK: Final Destination Lylat Cruise, Rainbow Cruise
Marth tends to enjoy smaller stages where he can easily take control of the stage. Stages like BF are really good for him because of the ability to control platforms with ease, but if Sonic can interrupt Marth's spacing and create enough room for himself to run around, say on a stage like FD, the MU becomes much easier. Other stages like Lylat are about even for both characters, kinda like a FD and BF combined. Rainbow Cruise would make for a nice CP against Marth due to Sonic being able to run around constantly from platform to platform and Marth not being able to do much about it. Remember, he has no projectile...take advantage of that ;D

BANNED: Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Rainbow Cruise
COUNTERPICK: Final Destionation, Yoshi's Island, Uncomfortable/unknown CP's like Pictochat
-Now MK has at least 3 stages on which he can do good against Sonic, try to avoid these. On Rainbow Cruise has a hard time utilizing his ground speed, on Halberd the stage transitions can mess you up and MK can spam you from under the platform, same for Delfino (See Kojin's post). You might think Brinstar is a good CP, but don't be fooled. The edges are a lot closer, so Dsmash and Shuttle Loop are very succesful.
Meta Knights sword doesn't clank with invincible spin dash roll, so you might wish to abuse it against a MK who thinks he can just always hit you out. Final Destination because MK is slow in the air, where he usually is. Just utilize your speed.

BANNED:
COUNTERPICK:

BANNED:
COUNTERPICK:

:shiek: BANNED:
COUNTERPICK:

BANNED: Brinstar, Halberd
COUNTERPICK: Jungle Japes, FD, Yoshi's Island
-CPing Snake isn't really too hard to CP. Jungle Japes makes camping for him semi-easy (the middle platform), but the amazing high ceiling make U-tilt hard for him to kill. FD and YI are you starter CPs because they are pretty straight forward levels. Brinstar is just such a tiny level, he can control it with explosives and tilts. Halberd has a low ceiling and the hazards work more in his favor because they distract you even more. KID noticed Delfino's stage shifts and size can mess Snake but I haven't got enough info about it to write much about it.

BANNED:
COUNTERPICK:

BANNED: Brinstar, Norfair
COUNTERPICK: Yoshis's Island, Pokémon Stadium 2
Wario is a pain, but the stages can make it even worse or better. Brinstar should always be your choice of banning, because F-smash kills soooo early. Norfair is a level where Wario can camp easily.
Yoshi's Island is good because of iSDR. Wario hasn't got much against it except clanking and shield. Pokémon Stadium 2, I honestly don't know, people just seemed to generally agree on it.

BANNED:
COUNTERPICK:

BANNED:
COUNTERPICK:

BANNED:
COUNTERPICK:

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ShadowLink84 · May 23, 2009

Ban Rainbow Cruise. Terrible map to take on MK from my experience.
I would love to take him to green greens.

Jim Morrison · May 23, 2009

Usually Green Greens is banned :/

Is RC really that bad for Sonic?

RenegadeRaven · May 23, 2009

Thank you for making this.

I usually counter pick Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Japes, and Frigate Orpheon if I don't know where to go. Those are pretty much my only counter picks lol.

And I don't think any of them hinder MetaK.

EDIT: LOL at Last Character gif

Jim Morrison · May 23, 2009

Luigi's Mansion is terrible against MK. You should probably ban that, IF ITS EVEN LEGAL. Jungle Japes is meh for MK. He doesn't kill off the top anyways and the water doesn't hurt him.
Frigate Orpheon is good for both characters, but I think MK has the edge there.

I think we need to look at Rainbow Cruise and if it should be banned against MK or if another level should be banned.

Terios the Hedgehog · May 23, 2009

HEY GF2!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195857

Read through that and update your ****. lol

/subscribes

Jim Morrison · May 23, 2009

My thread will be better, with actual discussion and write-up

EDIT: Also, some of that info looks really weird and old. I think we should start the new discussion.

FD could be a decent choice for Sonic, because he has a lot of space, but MK has an easy time D-tilting there.

Brinstar could work too. Discuss moar!

Terios the Hedgehog · May 23, 2009

Which is why I said to read through it and not. WE ALREADY HAVE ONE OF THOSE!

da K.I.D. · May 23, 2009

counterpick MK to final destination, WITHOUT HESITATION!!
seriously, FD is MKs worst stage. and if they ban it, go smash ville. Sonic has a lot of manuverability, so RC isnt actually that awful of a choice

Ban? LOL!!
Theres too many stupid stages that sonic is meh on that MK is broke on. but luckily the mk might not know about where to take sonic, so he will stick to just going to stages that the Mk player likes. MK should get into sonic pretty hard on BF, Delfino, Lylat, and a couple others. so the only thing you can really do is just try and figure out where the player likes to go and ban that

thecatinthehat · May 23, 2009

CP FD.

nuff said.

Jim Morrison · May 23, 2009

Fair enough, I'll put that on.

JayBee · May 23, 2009

Sonic has a good shot against meta if he can use his manuverablity to the fullest. If possible, Play him on FD, though this stage isn't that bad against meta, it lets you play your ground speed better. for that reason you will almost never get the chance to play it, as meta doesn't like to chase sonic around large stages for too long, for it exposes the meta lag on his favorite moves.

You must absolutely ban Delfino and/or Halberd. why? metas can use thier recovery to the fullest in this stage, and though your recovery is good, the main stages are smaller, and the changes interrupt sonic's running game. plus, you figure its harder to run when you can get upair'd/nadoed from below the platform. they will spam this, and why not? there is very little you can do about it.

the best thing sonic can do is learn how manuver in the less utilized stages in the game. in this meta game most people are too comfortable with playing only on neutrals and the occasional counterpick stage. any stage that contains hazards give you a tactical advantage since most obsticales sonic can avoid well, while meta with his slow aerial speeds can have issues.

Pictochat has a lot of hazards and not only that, sonic's isdr can be abuseed even more than in YI:B. but again, this can work against you, so familiarity is key.

Frigate bothers lots of players, and can trigger more mistakes, espeically when the stage transistions. it makes sonic's edge game a bit easier to do.

Rainbow cruise i dont think is a good choice. the stage in the beginning gives no room for sonic to use his speed, and you can get upair'd all day here too. yeah, we got spring, but with the floor constantly changing, we put our selves at risk anyway.

You an fight meta on Smashville, but meta can dair camp and nado to safety to the platform, and that is very gay.

Battlefield is good for sonic, but better for meta. both characters juggling abiliy enhances in this stage, but metas up and down airs not only hamper sonic's upair juggles, but makes it eaiser not only to juggle sonic with meta, but the platforms also punish if sonic overuses spring to escape.

that's my thoughts for now anyways.

JMan8891 · May 24, 2009

Id only put Luigi's Mansion as th3e must ban. Its too easy to get spammed in that house... it can be played but i honestly can't say zny stage deserves the ban more in this matchup...

Phoenix_Dark · May 24, 2009

RC needs to be added to the banned stages for sure. MK gets kills at stupid low percents because of the movement of the entire stage, and the platforms on this stage. It's probably one of MK's best cp's, if not his best. Even if some amazing trick for Sonic was found on this stage, I'd still say ban it WITHOUT HESITATION! MK is that good on it.

Kinzer · May 24, 2009

I would suggest banning Norfair if the MK player likes to plank you.

However I don't really think it matters what you ban in the long run, because MK just does too good of a job normally and he has way too much freedom with stages and has a variety of ways to be Gay, so I think in the end it just comes down to personal preference (within reason of course, you would be stupid to Ban FD just because you hate it when obviously it's MK's worst stage even though he still does fine there too lolol.) Just try and win the first match so that you'll be better off.

As for what counterpicks you might want to go with, of course FD, but if that's banned (chances are it will be) I would go with YI or Picto. Remember MK's sword doesn't clash with anything so he can't hit you out of iSDR.

Jim Morrison · May 24, 2009

Thanks guys, with this Kojin write up + Kinzer small write-up and opinions I'll close MK. You can still discuss him though.

Snake is a character that tries to utilize the stages to it's fullest, with C4, grenades and Mines (maybe a Mortar

)

He can really shut you down on some stages. However, Sonic is pretty fast, so hard to hit with C4 or Grenades. C4 requires real anticipation, as Sonic can also stop in his tracks without sliding because of SDSC and continue approach.

Stages like Battlefield and Smashville aren't really good choices. On Battlefield he can shut down one part of the stage with C4 + Mine by platforms and spam the other side with Grenades and Tilts. Smashville he gets a moving C4, which you can really lose track off, because you don't see it.

Avoid low ceiling stages, like Halberd (actually, this would be my first choice of ban).
Snake is heavy, so you need a stage with a big offstage. I'd imagine FD being a decent stage. Jungle Japes has a high ceiling and a semi-far away blast line from the middle of the stage. I'm not sure how this would do.

DISCUSS!

SuSa · May 24, 2009

Ban Battlefield.

CP FD or Japes.

Battlefield:

Medium ceiling height - and relatively small. We can completely shut down half the stage and camp the other side. This limits Sonics options by a lot. This is where I take any Sonics I face ;o

Smashville at least gives you some breathing room, and watching the platform isn't THAT hard. The ceiling also (seems to me) to be slightly higher. Also if you catch us on the platform, a fresh bair will kill at moderate %'s.

Why FD/Japes?

On FD you can avoid our camping easier, we can only control a section of the stage, the ceiling is higher then that of BF/SV (seems to me..) and you can actually survive on this stage. Also if you keep us under constant pressure and punish us properly - there isn't much we can do to avoid "combos" (Side-b/Down-B > jump attack thing > footstool > reverse down-B > aerial hit > land > shield cancel > jump OoS > aerial) had that happen to me quite a bit in my match vs Shugo... dealt something like 40-50%?

On Japes, it's for similiar reasons for FD - much higher ceiling; but beware. We can control this stage easier and camp it. (Also IIRC dthrow can screw us over if we DI it improperly.)

EDIT:
(I have nothing better to do so I'll start on m reasons)
/end edit

(OP)
I could give countless reasons as to do it, or you can take my word and save me 20-30 minutes. If you look at the stages (and the above post) it should become obvious.

However the above post missed quite a few things as well.

Jim Morrison · May 24, 2009

>: but my post was just the introduction to the discussion. Now we wait for people to actually wake up and post in here.
If you could give a small summary of it, it'd be appreciated.

Kinzer · May 24, 2009

I would Ban Lylat, just for the fact that Snake's explosives becomes harder to keep a track of, and for some reason camouflage works well here thanks to Lylat's Dark background. Ban Brinstar for the same reason if you want/can and add the low blastzones. Plus Cypher-gimping becomes useless here thanks to the acid (granted you won't have to worry about that yourself either and it's semi-hard to do anyway but it's not worth the reward for the risk you have to take going to this stage either).

If you're given the choice to stagestrike, get rid of Battlefield or SV (or just outright ban these, although Lylat/Brinstar is a CP (and sometimes a neutral for Lylat) some people just don't like coming here and you would be better off using your ban to actually prevent your oppponent from doing better than they could on what would be for them a more comfortable CP).

Halberd is yet another stage to avoid thanks to it's low ceiling. Snake's stupid UTilt kills even more early than usual. and junk.

This just seems like what is another personal preference thing, because Snake just has too many stages he can take you to, I would suggest winning the first match of the set so you won't have to worry even more later on.

To aid in this go to FD. Seems to be Snake's worst neutral. I dunno about Yoshi's Island but if you'd rather not have to deal with Snake having a moving C4 on Smashville then by all means go there, otherwise SV is your next best choice for starter stages.

If Snake does end up banning FD and you're gonna CP, I would go to Japes. Most of Snake's pluses become mitigated by the stage's normal attributes, and really all you have to do is DI up when you're hit by Snake and you have less to worry about. Japes has the highest ceiling in terms of legal stages, so UTilt doesn't become much of a problem here anymore, and most of your kills are off to the sides anyway. Recovery for Snake doesn't mean squat when your DSmash covers the entire right/left platforms and will push Snake off, at worst making him snap back onto the ledge and back to square one where you have the positioning advantage. The stage also emphasizes aerial combat thanks to the all the free space here, and again if Snake is retreating to the right/left platform you'll be much better off than he would've been (his tilts are gonna hit you anyway, so you might as well make it easier on yourself to barricade yourselves where he can't roll away for crap and blah blah blah).

Cruise seems like another good choice, but I won't say anything just because I personally don't CP this stage often if ever. I do believe the stage is suppose to be a good choice against Snake/Olimar, though I might be wrong/bandwagoning.

SuSa · May 24, 2009

TBH people need to stop worrying about "hard to keep track of" for our mine/c4/grenades.

If we can keep track of them and you you should be able to do the same. Many people die of stupid mistakes because they for some reason can't keep track of our explosives.

Sonic can really screw with Snake on Lylat, even if our projectiles are harder to see. I actually would ban Lylat or FD against Sonic - depending if I know them to be able to use platforms well.

Snake does great on FD - depending on the matchup. Also the tilting platform of Yoshi's Island allows for some... neat grenade play and better stage control.

IMO Snake doesn't really have a bad neutral... its all matchup dependant and "player" dependent.

I'm going to go get dinner. bye

da K.I.D. · May 24, 2009

ive seen snakes play really well on RC, but the fact is that the scrolling cant help but make things harder for snake.

also, one of snakes best stages is bristar. dont go there.

also, delfino might actually make a good CP for snake. how does snake do there? im not too sure.

also we need to get a list of stages to choose from so we know we arent leaving anything out

JayBee · May 25, 2009

jungle japes sounds like a good choice, the high ceiling, and i think sonic can avoid snake well though the air. sonic could play the percentage game here well and force snake to appraoch more the stage seems big enough and the average snake player doesn't play here.

I'd ban Halberd. this is automatic. its delfino and smashville combined with a low ceiling, the hazards only aid snakes explosives game. ban battlefield the stage is too small. however, sonic can juggle snake well if he catches him in the air here. smashville is a favorite of snakes, but sonic can fight here, and if you ban BF you will have to play here most likely.

FD is a solid choise. there is enought room for you to avoid nade camping, and gives you enough time to use them against snake. sonic is very good with items. it also seems to provoke more Dacus/Dash Attacks by snake in a effort to chase you down or suprise attack you. however, they usually ban this stage. in fact the whole brawl community in general bans this stage when they can.

Rainbow cruise makes teh setting up of explosives not such a big deal and may make the snake rely on granades even more. plus, once you get to the top, he can kill you with uptilt even easier than usual. however, many parts of the top portion give sonic access to isdr too. if the snake is unfamiliar with the stage, and sonic plays smart this can be a nice counter pick.

Jim Morrison · May 25, 2009

Starter

Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination

Starter/Counter

Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1
Castle Siege

Counter

Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
Pirate Ship
PictoChat
Pokémon Stadium 2

Ok here's a list of stages I'll add.
I don't agree with Pictochat and Pirate Ship to be up there >:[

I see this discussion all leaning towards the same, CP JJ, FD, ban BF, brinstar or halberd

Kinzer · May 25, 2009

No love for the counter/banned stages?

They can still be at tourneys for hosts discretion.

But LOL this is hard to do, seeing as how I wouldn't be surprised if I went to another PnT here and saw that Corneria was still a CP stage.

RenegadeRaven · May 25, 2009

Wow, didn't realize Stadium 2 was a counter. . .

And counter/banned plz? Hosts here accept a few of those.

ShadowLink84 · May 25, 2009

I was going to post something then said screw it, let the snake main talk XD

Jim Morrison · May 25, 2009

Then why did you post this?

Also, I don't feel like putting the counter/banned stages up cause they're all ********, except Green Greens, which is never allowed.

Terios the Hedgehog · May 25, 2009

I hate playing on BF as Snake. Too tiny.

Umby · May 25, 2009

I'm probably the only Sonic that likes BF over FD vs Snake. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

Terios the Hedgehog · May 25, 2009

Wrong. Phoenix.

da K.I.D. · May 25, 2009

the stages up there are best, its stupid to talk about how our best CP for somebody important is a stage that isnt usable anywhere important. just stick to talking about the stages that are definitely goign to be legal

Umby · May 25, 2009

da K.I.D. said:
the stages up there are best, its stupid to talk about how our best CP for somebody important is a stage that isnt usable anywhere important. just stick to talking about the stages that are definitely goign to be legal

Why would you limit discussion to usability at places that are "important?" Besides the fact that it isn't in your ability to truly define a place that is "important," there are places where certain stages are going to be allowed. With discussion on such stages, the users involved in the discussion will have pertinent information when it comes time to counterpick. I can understand universally banned stages, however, Pirate Ship and Green Greens stir up controversy on legality. Until it's close to solid fact that these are banned stages universally, I think they both warrant legitimate discussion.

da K.I.D. · May 25, 2009

alright how about this.

Lets limit the discussion to the places everyone can use.

theres no point to talking about Green Greens or other stages like that if me, SL, Wes, Malcolm, OSM, CiTH, Cam, Boku, Raven, ITT and SSR all cant use them.

Oh thats great, Pirate ship is the best stage against pit. Too bad Espy, Umby, and Kinzer are the only ones that can use that info to their advantage.

Lets stick to stages we all know everyone here can use. If mr. 3000 wants to CP people to port town thats great. but if the rest of us dont even have that option what good does it do to even talk about it?

Terios the Hedgehog · May 25, 2009

Boku goes to tournaments? I was thinking about that earlier during a SONC'S BROKEN ON WIFI discussion. What IS Boku's offline record?

Also I wish AN allowed Green Greens. That'd be neat.

Umby · May 25, 2009

da K.I.D. said:
alright how about this.

Lets limit the discussion to the places everyone can use.

theres no point to talking about Green Greens or other stages like that if me, SL, Wes, Malcolm, OSM, CiTH, Cam, Boku, Raven, ITT and SSR all cant use them.

Oh thats great, Pirate ship is the best stage against pit. Too bad Espy, Umby, and Kinzer are the only ones that can use that info to their advantage.

Lets stick to stages we all know everyone here can use. If mr. 3000 wants to CP people to port town thats great. but if the rest of us dont even have that option what good does it do to even talk about it?

Just because there's a regional difference doesn't mean the information isn't useful to certain people. If your region doesn't allow certain stages, then you can simply omit the information. Denying others of legitimately useful information where it applies to their region is just close-minded.

Furthermore, what if you decided to make a trip to a large FL tournament, and Pirate Ship is allowed? Granted, based on your own experience, you could make due without having to CP there, but what about other players attending from your region? If they could make use of relevant stage picking information, is it really wrong to deny them the kind of discussion developing in this thread?

Once again, for emphasis, if you don't have use for the information, you can simply omit it from your own personal database. Information on controversial CP stages are relevant in general and useful to where it's legitimately applied.

JayBee · May 25, 2009

Camalange said:
I'm probably the only Sonic that takes every character to BF >_>

like i said, if you are a smart sonic, you can own heavies here due to the comboing ability of sonic, and keep guessing games with up-air/d-smash/etc. going longer. i for one take DDD here if im on my game, and snake can be fought here too, because if the sonic is good enough he can give snake little time to setup anything, keeping snake on the defensive. but if the sonic lets snake get comfortable, then the tides turn easily. its just dependant on how well you chase and can get snake in the air.

SuSa · May 25, 2009

Teh Umby said:
Just because there's a regional difference doesn't mean the information isn't useful to certain people. If your region doesn't allow certain stages, then you can simply omit the information. Denying others of legitimately useful information where it applies to their region is just close-minded.

Furthermore, what if you decided to make a trip to a large FL tournament, and Pirate Ship is allowed? Granted, based on your own experience, you could make due without having to CP there, but what about other players attending from your region? If they could make use of relevant stage picking information, is it really wrong to deny them the kind of discussion developing in this thread?

Once again, for emphasis, if you don't have use for the information, you can simply omit it from your own personal database. Information on controversial CP stages are relevant in general and useful to where it's legitimately applied.

"Let us discuss a stage we have little experience with because it's banned in our region and we never play the stage."

So you're basically having 1 person discuss 1 stage that only that 1 person uses. How is that a discussion? If that person wants to take their own opinion over what's (universally) stated - then by all means do so.

It's wrong to have people with little to no experience trying to discuss something, that's just stupidity.

memphischains · May 25, 2009

I thought this was going to be good based off the OP

then i read responses

JayBee · May 25, 2009

MChains is lol

Isatis · May 25, 2009

JayBee said:
MChains is lol

Pretty much this.

I take all Snake's to Japes now, as previously mentioned, because it has a very high ceiling (utilt will be useless until even higher %'s as well as explosives due to their knockback sending the opponent straight up) and the fact that it's a bit more spread out, so the mine/C4 will be more difficult for Snake.

Shaky on the second point so feel free to debate me.

7. Mr. Game & Watch- Sonic Counterpick/Ban discussion

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