Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

Week 1: Discussion vs [Sonic] Rating: 50:50 Post 16 to Post 143.

Week 2: Discussion vs [Meta Knight] Rating: 40:60 Post 178 to Post 356.

Week 2a: Discussion vs [Snake] Rating: 40:60 in an export thread on the snake boards.​

Overview:
Snake from Metal Gear Solid joins the Brawl! With extremely broken powers of camping and not dying, he’s a tough matchup. Using his beardly awesomeness to aid him in battle Snake is second on the tier list, but by copying his beard, you can achieve a camping power that surpasses even his own.

Pros+Cons:
+Extremely heavy, making him very difficult to outright KO.
+Camping can force Kirby to approach, which is something Kirby rarely wants to do.
-Kirby is one of the best characters at gimping Snake.
-Heaviness makes him susceptible to aerial juggling.

Watch out for:
Utilt – His utilt has extremely broken range (it outranges every aerial approach you have, except final cutter) and extremely broken power. If hit by it, DI behind Snake to live longer.

Ftilt – It can do a maximum of 21% damage if both hits make contact, and is Snake’s main punishing move.

Usmash – His usmash is a 2-hit attack, one hit with the mortar and one with the small projectile it pushes out. It can be used in a DACUS for a very long range attack, and a smart Snake will use it near the edge when you are recovering.

Pivot Grabs – Snake’s pivot grabs are very broken, much like his weight.

Dthrow & Follow-ups – Snakes dthrow does a decent amount of damage and he can chase you very well do to your slow roll and short roll distance.

How to win:
Get Him in the Air – Snake is afraid of being in the air. All his aerials are too slow to counter yours, which means a jugglefest. Deal damage to him while you can, and expect to take quite a bit when he falls down to earth.

DI His Dair, Nair and Jab– Snake’s dair and nair are 4-hit moves, the last hit being a powerful KO move, and his jab is a 3-hit move with large knockback on the 3rd hit. Make sure to DI them so you don’t get hit by the KOing part.

Inhale Him Out of the Cypher – Inhaling Snake out of the cypher and not spitting him out acts the same as a grab. Jump offstage towards the end of the inhale duration. Either you get a footstool on him, or he DI’s horizontally and can’t bomb jump, resulting in death.

Copy His Power– This probably seems a little confusing, given the previous point, but copying grenades makes winning so much easier. See Spit or Swallow (next section) for more talk about each.

Keep Track of C4 and Mine – Make sure to remember where his C4 and mine are, and if you can, take a look at the clock when he plants a C4. It’ll blow up in ~27 seconds on its own.

Mix up Between Fthrow and Dthrow at the Beginning of Stocks – Snake can pull a ‘nade in each of these cases which will explode after any follow-ups (except aerial hammer after fthrow), but if you read that he’s going to do these, we can get follow-ups on him (inhale after a Dthrow if he pulls a ‘nade, hammer after fthrow if he pulls one…). It eventually becomes a game of mix-ups between pulling a ‘nade or not for Snake and how to attack for Kirby.

Fight for 4th Port – The person in the “better” port (1<2<3<4) won’t get knocked back after a ‘nade explodes and one person is grabbing the other. Kirby is in a perfect position to be hit after a ‘nade explodes if he’s in an inferior port to Snake.

Effectively Use FC’s Projectile – FC’s projectile can blow up Snake’s ‘nades and mines, though expect to have a grenade thrown at you during the long ending lag.

Spit out or Swallow?
Either one has its large advantages. Kirby is even better with ‘nades than Snake, and can camp like the best. You can also use them to deal damage and still live after being hit by a KO attack, if you read your opponent correctly. Be careful about shield-dropped ‘nades: if you wait too long, they will slide out of your reach.

Inhale is also good, because it means an instant gimp on Snake if you can get him in your mouth (it counts as a grab, and grabbing his cypher without pummeling it doesn’t give him it back).

If you’re at medium-high %’s, copy grenades. If he’s at medium-high %’s (where an fsmash would knock him far enough for him to need his upb), spit. Whichever you feel more comfortable with, in general.

Also note that Snake can hit you with the first hit of his dair out of a swallow.

What NOT to do: (more to be added later!)
Approach From the Air at High %’s – Snake’s utilt outranges every air approach you have, except maybe final cutter, which is even more easily punished.

Inhale Riskily – Utilt outranges inhale, meaning that you need to be sure you can hit with it before using it.

Stages (in order of priority):
Rainbow Cruise - Snake is unable to camp very effectively and is often forced into the air, a good scenario for you. Expect Snake to ban it.
Jungle Japes – High ceiling negates utilt kills, the water current hates Snake and your Kirbyciding is very effective here. Just be aware that his explosives are harder to see on this stage.
PS1 - Snake in general does poorly on this stage, and you in general do well. There's a chance that both RC and JJ will be banned, and if they are, this is your go-to.
Lylat Cruise - Snake has good stage control and pressuring (grenades work wonders at pressuring, especially on the platforms), but the stage can mess up his recovery and he can be ninja spiked. It's not a great stage to take him to, but it's not that bad if you end up here.
Brinstar - Close sides in all directions allow for extremely low % kills, he has a cg on the bridge and the acid can save him from gimps.
Halberd – Low ceiling and wide blastzones are the exact opposite of what Kirby wants, while Snake can kill easily. Ban it.

Neutrals: Ranked and Explained:

Key: Blue=Good, Red=Bad.

Yoshi's Island - Snake's least-abusable neutral, and a stage which is arguably one of your better neutrals. You can jump off after inhaling Snake with your face towards the stage for a guaranteed footstool. Pick it, unless PS1 is neutral.
Smashville - Slightly smaller than FD, but the moving platform allows for moving explosives. Try not to take him here.
Battlefield - Platforms aid camping and it's one of Kirby's worst and Snake's best neutrals.
Final Destination - Game summary: Grenade, Grenade, Nikita, plant mine, Snake-Dash, rinse, repeat. Stage strike it. NOW.​

Synopsis:
Snake is like DK in that he has some characteristics (large & heavy) that Kirby likes and some that he dislikes (good camper, powerful killer), but worse overall. It’s hard for Kirby to get in, but once he does, Snake is in for some %’s, but Snake can deal a lot of damage to Kirby before he gets in. It’s an uphill matchup, but it’s still possible.


Major Contributors: Fromundaman, SuSa

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Week 3: Discussion vs [Zelda] Temporary Rating: 55:45 Post 368 to Post 401. (incomplete discussion; will be rediscussed)

Week 4: Discussion vs [Mr. Game & Watch] Rating: 40:60 Post 427 to Post 451.

Overview:
Mr. Game & Watch returns from melee, but he’s extremely buffed. His smashes are extremely powerful. All smashes and dtilt have IASA frames, and dtilt is disjointed, hits around his entire body and can cancel into itself so it has a constant hitbox. His dair is now a stall-then-fall aerial, and more moves than most would care to talk about have been buffed.

Pros+Cons:
+Bucket Breaking practically makes him a heavyweight, but can still escape combos like a lightweight.
+Recovery goes extremely high, has invincibility, has a parachute come out at the end that can be used for free horizontal distance, and can be canceled into any aerial. It’s pretty much unstoppable.
+Quick, powerful smash attacks, with the added bonus of having IASA frames, though they can be seen coming.
+Can catch 3 energy-based attacks in his bucket (including the FC shockwave and kirby’s bacon).
+Dtilt can be used to create a continuous hitbox due to the IASA frames.
+Bair goes through our bair.
+Aside from his roll, spotdodge and dash, G&W is faster than Kirby.
-Inferior offstage game compared to Kirby.
-Chef goes in random arcs, making it hard to use effectively.
-Side B is random in attack strength and effects.

Watch out for:
Dtilt- Comes out on frame 6 and can be used into itself with the IASA frames, negating all cooldown and startup. It also cancels your fsmash, is disjointed, hits all around him, and has more range than almost anything you have.

Dair- A powerful stall-then-fall aerial which is slightly aimable. The key has an aerial hit and a hit when crashing into the ground, not to mention it spikes in the beginning. Try to perfect shield the aerial hit and then grab him after he hits the ground.

Bair- A high-priority multi-hit attack that has a grounded hit as well. It beats your bair. The best thing to do against it is predict (as it’s fairly easy to see coming) and shieldgrab before the grounded hit.

Uair – An attack with a windbox high above the hitbox which he can use to juggle you, and, on some stages, kill you by forcing you above the upper blastzone.

How to win:
Use stone on his recovery – One of the few matches you can actually use stone semi-consistently. His recovery is extremely predictable, and the stone’s hitbox stays out long enough to hit through the invincibility most of the time.

Stall offstage- If you’re being edguarded, simply float just out of his reach. You have 5 midair jumps and a pretty good upb, while all he has is one midair jump and his upb. He’ll soon be forced back onstage, while you can recover safely.

Kill him upwards- Bucket breaking is less effective on vertical momentum, so try to use usmash, up-angled and/or sourspotted fsmash or hammer for kills.

Fight more grounded than usual – Your aerials have less priority and range than his horizontally, and he can deal with vertical approaches with uair and dair. His ground game is easy to see coming.

Bait & Punish – Many of G&W's aerials leave him vulnerable if he lands while doing them, so try to bait aerials and punish. Judge also has a large amount of cooldown lag.

Spit out or Swallow?
This is a matchup where spit is almost always much better than swallowing. Kirby’s bacon can be absorbed by the bucket for some reason, even though a Game & Watch can’t absorb another Game & Watch’s bacon. Swallowing also gives him a free dair to your face, maybe even knocking out the power you just got. One of the only good points for swallowing is tricking them into using their dair when you actually spit them, making them kill themselves.

What NOT to do:
Expect to KO him early – While Game & Watch is a lightweight, bucket breaking effectively makes him much heavier, as I have said several times.

Don’t DI the nair- If you don’t DI his nair at low %’s, get ready to eat another one.

Not techroll his Dthrow- If you don’t techroll his dthrow, there’s nothing you can do to avoid a dsmash. At higher %’s, it will kill you.

Expect to Kill Horizontally with Fsmash – G&W is like a heavyweight with bucket breaking, and it affects horizontal knockback more than vertical (as I have said). Try to angle the fsmash upward and/or hit with the sourspot to give it a more upward trajectory, but also try to use usmash.

Stages (in order of priority):

Pokemon Stadium 1 – G&W has nothing really good on any transformations, except for dtilt locks on the fire and rock stages and a jab lock on the fire one (you have locks there too), while you have something good on every single transformation. CP this. However, expect it to be banned.

Battlefield – Top platform allows for moderate % uthrow kills. Use it for your neutral.

Yoshi's Island (B) – Same reason as battlefield, but it's harder to get a good height on the platform and the maximum height isn't even as good as battlefield's. Use it for your neutral if g&w stage strikes it.

Brinstar – Close boundary lines are a minus, but you have more exploitable things here than Game & Watch. Lava can kill him for you at reasonable-high %’s. The bad thing about this is that Brinstar basically cancels your ground game, and you lose to G&W in the air. Something you should know: if he’s positioned right, his dair will break up the entire flesh bridge and he will fall to his doom.

Jungle Japes – The high ceiling (highest in the game) makes killing G&W difficult, and bucket breaking is more effective on horizontal kill moves. Choosing dark blue or black costume makes him almost invisible. He can easily survive going into the water. Dthrow techchasing is easy to do on the small platforms, and he can abuse nair. Don't take him here.

Rainbow Cruise – He has a dtilt lock on the boat, but so do you. Once you get off the boat, he can abuse way more things than you on all the disappearing platforms and carpets. He can get tons of uair and usmash kills on the third (horizontal) part, especially against chars with multijumps. Beware of uthrow->uair as you get back on the boat. Ban this stage.

Synopsis:
If you can get a grab at the beginning of a stock, do a dthrow->utilt. If you know the G&W will dair, then walk in the opposite direction of where he’s facing and regrab or reverse fsmash. Punish him whenever he puts himself in lag, generally with a dthrow (or uthrow when he’s close to death). G&W has a large advantage over you in terms of stages; kirby’s second best stage against him is Brinstar, which is better for him.

Major Contributors: Splice, Straked, Thrillagorilla

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Week 5: Discussion vs [Zero Suit Samus] Rating: 40:60 Post 465 to Post 513.

Overview:
Zero Suit Samus is Samus without her power suit, but is a completely different character. She has a large amount of range, and her recovery is better than you'd think. Her air game rivals your own, and it can be a tough matchup to handle.

Pros+Cons:
+Powerful air game, stronger than kirby’s.
+Very hard to gimp, and can gimp us if we’re not careful.
-Mid-range game is easily beaten by slowly walking forward and powershielding.
-Dash attack and paralyzer shot (except fully charged) both go over a crouching Kirby.

Watch out for:

Dsmash – Getting hit by a Dsmash guarantees that ZSS can land a kill move on you. Be cautious at high %’s. If you’re in the middle of the stage and she hits you, DI up and get ready to momentum cancel. If you’re on the edge and she hits you, better luck on your next stock. Dsmash also leads into combos. 2 examples:

Her Air Game – ZSS’ aerials are generally longer-ranged and more powerful than yours. Watch out for the killing uair, bair and fair, and the dair which spikes a little and is a stall-then-fall. Plasma wire will always beat or clash with dair, and drags stone below her without hitting her.

Her Uair – It’s so good it needed its own paragraph. ZSS’ Uair is the rough equivalent of our bair; it combos into itself and it can kill. Note that her combo starters are all hard to hit with (Dthrow, dtilt and utilt), but that you will get hit by them eventually and you will take on a bunch of %.

Down B – It works as a surprisingly good recovery attack, has invincibility in the beginning and can spike you if you’re not careful. DON’T APPROACH FROM UNDER HER. DON’T DO IT.

How to win:

Powershield –Powershielding pretty much wrecks ZSS’ game. Since her grab is so laggy, just walk forward slowly while perfect shielding what she throws at you. If you see the grab coming, spotdodge and punish.

Powershield the Jab – If ZSS jabs you (you may need to DI towards the ground), hold shield to powershield the third hit. Get prepared to punish, preferably with a Dthrow.

Learn to Catch the Armor – If you’ve seen some matches of ZSS, the armor does a hell of a lot of damage if they use it right. Learn to catch the armor, then throw it offstage. SH->Dthrow->Uair is a good way to keep the armor.

Inhale the Down B – (situational) If you inhale her and she escapes in midair, you have a guaranteed footstool on her. Make sure to start the inhale as she starts the down b or you will be hit by the sex kick if she pulls it out. She doesn’t get her down b back, so she has her double jump (maybe) and her upb. The footstool stun should last long enough to edgehog her, but you can always ff dair->footstool if it won’t. Be careful, as she can footstool out of her down b which is a special footstool, gives her lots of horizontal distance, she can do the same footstool out of that AND it doesn't shorten the height of her normal footstool.

Spit out or Swallow?
This is really your choice. Spitting out allows you to inhale her out of her down b for a guaranteed footstool, but this is situational. Paralyzer gives you a mid-range projectile, though it isn't that great. It all depends on what you feel most comfortable with.

What NOT to do:

Take Her to the Air – ZSS has better airspeed and aerial attacks than us. Don’t do it.

Rush In – Rush in and you're asking for a side b to the feet. Slowly walk in while powershielding to approach.

Edgecamp Her – If you get hit with a dsmash while edgcamping her, she can use a kill move and you will die. If you get hit with a dsmash at non-kill %'s, you will eat damage.

Stages (in order of priority):
Jungle Japes – Uair is neutralized as a killing move and her horizontal kill moves are hard to land. You can live to extremely high %'s with good DI. If it's not banned, pick it.

Frigate Orpheon– The lack of a ledge on the left side helps you more than you'd expect, and ZSS is bad in general on this stage. Ninja Spiking on the right side of the first transformation is a situational and unknown trick that could net you a kill. Pick it if they ban JJ.

Brinstar– Brinstar limits the use our ground game can be put to and our air game is inferior to ZSS’. The exact combination you DON'T want.

Synopsis:
Zero Suit Samus is a hard matchup, but get a few things down and it won’t be too difficult. Approach by perfect shielding what she throws at you and spotdodging her grab and punishing it. Stay out of the air when you can; your air game is inferior to hers. If you can inhale her out of her down b, do it, as you have a guaranteed footstool on her out of it. Watch out for Dsmash; it leads into all her KO moves. Don’t camp her on the edge of a stage; if you get hit by dsmash, better luck on your next stock.

Major Contributors: DC, fromundaman, Supermodel from Paris

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Week 5a: Discussion vs [Falco] Rating 55:45 in an export thread on the falco boards.​

Week 6: Discussion vs [Ice Climbers] Rating: 30:70 Post 540 to Post 578.

Week 6a: Discussion vs [Olimar] Rating 40:60 Post 1780 to Post 1818 in the Olimar matchup thread.​

Week 7: Discussion vs [R.O.B] Rating: 45:55 Post 584 to Post 626.

Overview:
It’s Kirby vs the Robotic Operating Buddy! With his rocket engine recovery, ROB has almost no trouble getting back onstage. He also has 2 projectiles. Kirby vs ROB is not a difficult matchup, but the little marshmallow needs to stay on his toes.

Kirby’s Pros+Cons:
+To Be Added Later.
-To Be Added Later.

R.O.B’s Pros+Cons:
+Good camping game, but Kirby can work around it.
-To Be Added Later.

Watch out for:
Lasers - His laser is a strong, fast attack that reaches across most stages and charges over time. Lasers are okay camping tools. There is a lull of a few seconds before R.O.B can use the laser again. They can also be used to KO you if you are near the blast zone. Lasers are much more effective if the R.O.B doesn’t try to camp with them.

Gyro - It can be glide tossed, it can be charged, and it can KO at high %’s. Another okay camping tool. He can glide toss -> fsmash, usmash, and grab (if the gyro is shielded). It is very important for you to know how far the gyro will fly based on how much it was charged and how to react (shield, crouch or dodge). Like lasers, gyros are more effective if NOT used for camping.

Dsmash - Generally used out of a spotdodge as a punishing move, the hitbox comes out on frame 4. If you get hit by it, SDI up and you may be able to escape.

His Range - ROB’s attacks have more reach and are more disjointed than Kirby’s, which means it’s not trivial to fight him.

Ftilt - Ftilt has surprising range and speed, and there is very little Kirby can do if it is well-spaced.

Nair - Nair covers ROB’s entire hurtbox and has surprising knockback. The first hit comes out on frame 18, however, so it shouldn’t be too difficult to avoid.

How to win:
Punish – Punishing is what Kirby needs to do in this matchup. R.O.B’s moves are fast and have good range, but are still punishable. Bair is good for punishing. This ties in with the next “How to win” point.

Tilts – If punishing is the name of our game, it makes sense to use some of the fastest moves in Kirby’s arsenal, right? And those are tilts (dtilt and utilt come out frame 4 and ftilt comes out on frame 5) .

Bait - Baiting goes hand-in-hand with punishing. Most of the time, it’s best to stay just out of range and bait his attacks.

Stay at Close Range - This is where Kirby wants ROB to be. The range factor is no longer a problem, but Kirby must be confident in his attacks or the speed factor will hurt him. Watch out for ROB’s 3-frame jab at this range.

Spit out or Swallow?
Definitely swallow, no questions asked. Inhale doesn’t help against R.O.B, but having his laser does. It makes long range easier by giving you a camping tool and making it harder for him to camp, which already isn’t easy for him. Note that Kirby can be immediately hit by a dair after a swallow, but it’s still worth it.

What NOT to do:
Be at Long Range – R.O.B can camp, and you cannot. Close the distance ASAP.

To Be Added Later – To Be Added Later.

To Be Added Later – To Be Added Later.

To Be Added Later – To Be Added Later.

To Be Added Later – To Be Added Later.

Stages (in order of priority):
Brinstar – Camping game is almost completely destroyed by approaching from under the stage. Kirby can shark well against R.O.B., who has a blindspot under him. R.O.B. can kill sooner than usual, but Kirby can kill even sooner. Very good CP.
Rainbow Cruise – To Be Added Later.
Pokemon Stadium 1 – To Be Added Later
To Be Added Later – To Be Added Later.
To Be Added Later – To Be Added Later.
To Be Added Later – To Be Added Later.

Neutrals: Ranked and Explained

Key: Good, Bad.

Battlefield – To Be Added Later.
Yoshi's Island – To Be Added Later.
Final Destination – To Be Added Later.
Smashville – To Be Added Later.​

Synopsis:
Kirby vs ROB is an almost even matchup. Watch out for his nair, glide toss approaches and lasers, which can be angled. This matchup is all about punishing for Kirby. ROB has the slight advantage because of how he is able to attack from a little farther away, hits just a little quicker, tacks on that extra little damage from projectiles, and is heavy and takes three D-airs instead of one to gimp.

Major Contributors: t1mmy, thrillagorilla

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Week 8: Discussion vs [Marth] Rating: 40:60 Post 625 to Post 663.

Overview:
Marth and his beastly sword join the Brawl! With long sword reach, quick attack speed and tippers to be feared, he is quite a force to be reckoned with. His hobbies include ****** poor little marshmallows.

Kirby’s Pros+Cons:
+Good air, great grab game
+Great gimping ability
+Small, so Marth has a hard time landing tippers
+Five jumps, which allows him to air camp and wait until the opponent makes a mistake and punish
+Good recovery
+Good ground and bait 'n punish game
+Good OoS options (f-tilt, u-tilt, b-air, f-air)
+Small, making it more difficult to land a tipper on him
–Lightweight, which means tipper smashes are lethal
–Predictable recovery, meaning Kirby can be edgehogged/spiked
–Smashes are really punishable if missed
–Unreliable projectile and special moves
–Slow aerial mobility
–Lack of approaching options

Marth’s Pros+Cons:
+Great aerial and ground game
+Great range and zoning/spacing
+Awesome punishing moves (dancing blade and up-b OoS)
+Great frame trap (d-tilt)
+Racks damage really fast
+Good aerial and ground mobility
–Light, especially for his size
–No projectile
–Predictable recovery
–Almost no horizontal recovery
–Relies heavily on spacing/zoning
–Lack of killpower, except on tippered attacks

Watch out for:
UpB – Dolphin Slash is a good vertical recovery move with large knockback at the beginning, comes out on frame 6 and has invincibility frames 1-5 and can be used to interrupt almost anything. It can interrupt jab, dash attack and fthrow->uair.

Ftilt – Ftilt counters all of our aerial approaches except spaced bairs or a final cutter (and why you would use a final cutter to approach is beyond me). Space bairs until his shield gets too low to take it anymore or aircamp and wait for him to make a mistake.

Fair – Fair is the staple of Marth’s air game. He can perform 2 in one short hop, and being hit by one usually means another fair or a dancing blade.

Nair – Nair is also a very good aerial of Marth’s. Watch out for its long range. Marths generally use it to space.

Dancing Blade – A four-hit move with 18 possible combinations. The first hit comes out frame 4. It can be used as a KO move, damage racker, punisher and to hurt shields. It also counts as 4 separate moves, refreshing 4 of his other moves. It’s possible to land a shieldgrab after the first move if you’re positioned properly and react fast enough.

Fthrow->Fsmash – A true combo, and, unfortunately for Kirby, he doesn’t require anything special (like a stutter step) in order to have it pulled off on him. It will put ~25% on you, so be wary of grabs at 0-3%.

How to win:
Grab – Grabs are good. Grabs are your friends. DO NOT fthrow->uair (you can be DS’d out of it), but use dthrow. Marth is likely to attack you after a dthrow, so shield and be shieldgrab after one. Any other throw is pretty much useless, except uthrow for (rare) kills.

Ftilt – Marth outranges you. Make that advantage smaller with a quick, far-reaching attack. Fact: Ftilt reaches farther horizontally than any of Kirby’s ground moves except the infinite part of jab (which can be punished with marth’s upb), fsmash and final cutter, the latter 2 of which are highly punishable if wiffed.

Get Inside – It’s difficult to get inside, but the reward is great if you do.

Get Him in the Air – His aerials have more range, but our air game is better. His fair just out ranges our bair. Ideally, you should be a little underneath him (so uair, fair and bair can all hit). NEVER be above him because of his great juggle traps and our almost-useless dair.

**** Him Offstage – Marth has a bad recovery. You are Kirby. Try to get them to waste a second jump gimp them. Good marths will recover low, and a stone here can throw them off-guard if they’re near the stage. Even if he gets back onstage, you probably just dealt him a bunch of damage.

Recover Properly – Watch out for tippered fairs and bairs offstage; they will kill you at surprisingly low %’s. Don’t recover low, you’re just asking for a dair spike. Kirbycides are risky because of the startup and lack of range compared to Marth’s moves. He can hassle you on the ledge.

Spit out or Swallow?
It’s really up to you. Shield breaker is a good attack and can propel Kirby horizontally through the air when fully charged (though Kirby probably wouldn’t need that boost). The range on his shield breaker is either the same as Marth’s or a bit smaller. The tricky part is landing the inhale, and for that reason, you shouldn’t really be trying to get the power that much. You’ll be ahead in % but on the same stock as Marth most of the time if you’re playing well, and so an inhale would probably be best served as a Kirbycide if and when you land it. Neither is that much better than the other; it’s really your choice.

What NOT to do:
Immediately Approach Him – Your only real approach is running shield, and most marths are aggressive. Wait for him to approach. It’ll probably happen. It’ll also probably be from the air, but dancing blade is a good approach from the ground.

Approach Him From the Air – A good Marth won’t be rushing in, he’ll be keeping you at sword’s length and playing defensively. Forcing you to approach. Don’t approach from the air, as all your approaches are countered by his (somewhat slow and laggy) ftilt, except final cutter, which should NEVER be used as an approach move. Your best approach is quite honestly running shield.

Stone – While stone is rarely useful, it can be used in almost any matchup in some situation. It’s bad idea against Marth unless he’s commited himself to something laggy when you’re reasonably high above him. A DS will be coming your way if you use it.

Choose Platform-Heavy Stages – Stages that have tons of platforms are usually more helpful to Marth than us (though this isn’t always true with “less tame” counterpicks, like Rainbow Cruise).

Stages (in order of priority):
Rainbow Cruise – A good Kirby stage and parts of it mess with some aspects of Marth’s game. If the marth doesn’t ban it, CP it please.
Jungle Japes – A good Kirby stage (albeit not quite as good as RC) and a bad marth stage (albeit not quite as bad as RC). If RC is banned, go here.
Delfino Plaza – You can abuse this stage better than Marth can, and sharking is effective as well (but watch out for that dair).
Pokemon Stadium 1– PS1 is a very good Kirby stage. It’s not the best CP, but it’s good.
Halberd – Low ceiling and far walls, what Marth likes and what Kirby hates. Try to stay away from it.
Lylat Cruise – Similar to Battlefield, except that the tilting stage may gimp him. Not a good idea to take him here.
Battlefield – No. Battlefield is an awesome Marth stage. No. Ban it.

Neutrals: Ranked and Explained

Key: Good, Bad.

Final Destination – You have no real advantages vs Marth on the neutrals, but FD gives you the fewest disadvantages. He can also get caught under the lip of the stage.
Smashville – Similar to FD, except for the smaller stage size, lack of a lip, and moving platform. None of those really affect how you play on the stage compared to FD vs Marth.
Yoshi’s Island – Kirby is good on this stage and Marth isn’t bad, but isn’t great. Your and sometimes the Marth’s opinion will say something else about YI, in which case you may not want to choose it.
Battlefield – The list of his advantages here is endless. Standing on one of the 2 lower platforms? Tippered fsmash. Platforms offer good approaches for him. Only thing going for you is uthrow kills on the top platform. Ban it.​

Synopsis:
Marths are usually aggressive, and usually approach from the air. It’s difficult to get inside, but once you do, the reward is great. Marth is in for a world of pain if he’s offstage. If he shields an attack from you, expect to be upb’d. Go to RC, JJ, Delfino or PS1 for your CP. FD and YI are good neutrals, while BF and SV are bad neutrals. Ban battlefield. Overall, it will be a tough uphill battle for you.

Major Contributors: ~Shao~, Ladybug, Percon

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Week 8a: Discussion vs [Diddy Kong] Rating: 50:50 in an export thread on the diddy boards.​

Week 9: Discussion vs [Donkey Kong] Rating: 45:55 Post 664 to Post 734.

Week 9a: Discussion vs [Toon Link] Rating 50:50 in an export thread on the Toon Link boards.

Week 9b: Discussion vs [Link] Rating 60:40 Post 1101 to post 1163 and Post 1202 on the AiB link boards.​

Week 11: Discussion vs [Peach] Rating: 50:50 Post 756 to Post 795.

Week 12: Discussion vs [Ganondorf] Rating: 60:40 Post 800 to Post 849.

Week 13: Discussion vs [Luigi] Rating: 50:50 Post 849 to Post 876.

Week 14: Discussion vs [Pikachu] Rating: 45:55 Post 877 to Post 906.

Week 14a: Discussion vs [Wario] Rating: 45:55 in an export thread on the wario boards.​

Week 15: Discussion vs [Lucario] Rating: 45:55 Post 908 to Post 963.

Week 17: Discussion vs [Yoshi] Rating: 60:40 Post 1054 to Post 1085.

Week 18: Discussion vs [Fox] Rating: 55:45 Post 1086 to Post 1181.

Week 19: Discussion vs [Ness] Rating: ???:??? Post 1184 to Post 1230.

Week 19a: Discussion vs [Jigglypuff] Rating: ???:??? Post 481 to Post 481 in the Jigglypuff matchup thread.​

Week 20: Discussion vs [King Dedede] Rating: 45:55 Post 1241 to Post 1266.

Week 20a: Discussion vs [Lucas] Rating: ???:??? Post 430 to Post 430 in the Lucas matchup thread.​

Week 21: Discussion vs [Ike] Rating: 60:40 Post 1279 to [Post 1327.

Condog said:

I say we start at the top and work our way down.

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A1lion835 said:

I'm the one who went overboard and reserved 3. I was like "yay free posts!:D".

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Kewkky said:

Having the ability to outrange AND camp Kirby is definitely a pro when it comes to making Kirby MUs.

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Kewkky said:

So, I think the MU is DEFINITELY in Kirby's advantage (Sonic vs Kirby).

Sonic can counter everything Sonic does. If he dashes/does a fast ground attack, just leave the A button pressed and your jab stops him. If he decides to get close and personal, grabs and strings always beat him out. In the air, Kirby is definitely at an advantage (bair is too fast for sonic, "HE'S TOO SLOW"). imping Sonic might be a tiny little bit difficult because his upB has invinci frames at the start, but afterwards anything can knock him out. And if you grab release him, he can't do anything at all and dies, falling helplessly.

If Sonic had a projectile, he'd be a tougher matchup, I assure you! Having the ability to outrange AND camp Kirby is definitely a pro when it comes to making Kirby MUs.


So, what do you people say? I think kirby has the advantage. I don't wanna say numbers until everyone has spoken at least something.

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Delta Z said:

Bait an attack then punish the punish with a bair/fsmash/utilt/whatever? Dunno, never seen a Sonic do that.

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A1lion835 said:

I don't really have anything to contribute to the matchup (the only sonics I ever get to play are the standard wifi sonics), but I wish the sonic boards would get over here already >.>.

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djbrowny said:

Ive been here for a while... but Im not going to say anything until the other kirby mainers kill off these misconceptions about approaching and priority themselves. We shouldnt have to do it AGAIN after discussing this matchup at least twice over here

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Kewkky said:

You punish bait-and-punishment strategies by doing the opposite, yet the same thing: on't simply bait like you always do: literally jump into them and start attacking. If they shield and do any OoS options, then it's YOUR turn to approach with grabs. It's the best way you can punish bait-and-punishment characters: catch their baiting with a grab rather than an actual attack. Grabs punish attacks, shields, and even dodges (plus ours end fast, so we have almost no risk).

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Kewkky said:

So, I think the MU is DEFINITELY in Kirby's advantage (Sonic vs Kirby).

Sonic can counter everything Sonic does. If he dashes/does a fast ground attack, just leave the A button pressed and your jab stops him.

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djbrowny said:

Ive been here for a while... but Im not going to say anything until the other kirby mainers kill off these misconceptions about approaching and priority themselves. We shouldnt have to do it AGAIN after discussing this matchup at least twice over here

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Xiivi said:

No, you don't need to make a million posts to reserve space. I have the power to create new posts for you as they are needed through some unique/clever use copy/merge/move post options.
When they are needed, I'll get it done for you. But for now you only need one.

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Asdioh said:

I also say we start at the top and work our way down.

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Allied said:

To be honest i think the Kirby vs Sonic Matchup is 55-45 in sonics favor

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]Its a complete uphill battle for kirby said:

☆ Unless you play online, Sonic can space with speed with Kirby unable to do anything about it, but Kirby can approach from the air when Sonic's on the ground, (of course you can spam B-Air like a ***** to mess up Sonic's ground game). ☆ [/FONT]

sonic can add an extra element of mindgames because of his speed making it that much harder to shield or defend against his attacks

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☆ That I'll agree, if you just try to block most of Sonic's fake Spin Dash then you'll get grabbed. Just the more to not keep blocking all the time and just attack him when he's spinning. ☆

really all kirbys have to rely on to even hit or dmg a good sonic in this matchup is

Bair
which goes stale QUICK

I say this because i've faced
Malcom, Ophelia, Camalange etc
and i know how hard sonic can be when played basically perfectly

So i stand with 55-45 Sonic or 50-50 Even

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☆ Only a typical Kirby main will have to relay on that move forever and that's why our meta game isn't evolving well. Not even a thought of Up-B and it can stop all of Sonic's Spin Dash unless he jumps out of it. There's more attacks that's useful to name. But all and all, no one really knows the Sonic vs Kirby match up very well, not even I since most of the Sonic mains I Brawled were a breeze when I use Kirby and Wario but is hard when I use Olimar or Pokemon Trainer. ☆

Asdioh said:

There's a reason I said this. Nobody knows what the hell they're talking about when it comes to the Sonic matchup.

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☆ Kind of reminds me of the Ike match up thread when it come's to Kirby. =/ ☆

I haven't ever met a good OR bad Sonic in tourney pools OR brackets. I personally don't care about the matchup until I happen to meet ithrowthings or Shugo in a tournament, and then I'm probably screwed anyway.

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☆ Same, there just isn't enough godly good Sonic mains around MI, there's some in the Mid-West but there isn't enough Sonic mains here... kind of like the lack of Kirby mains in the Mid-West but three or four. And I guess it really don't matter what I think on match up's since there isn't enough Sonic mains to keep me from thinking the opposite. ☆

But please, go ahead and continue talking about baiting, grabbing, and bairing guyz. Don't forget that Dtilt stops all of Sonic's approaches.

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☆ As long as people don't think the same as the last match up. Also I haven't thought of using D-Tilt to stop most of Sonic's approaches, though Spin Dash approaches end up switching to Homing Attack some of the time before D-Tilt can reach you. ☆

☆ I guess the next match up will based on the tier list I guess. ☆

☆ Edited: Also stage talk about Sonic is in this thread. ☆

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