Lucario Brainstorm Thread (Updating Soon.)

iRJi · Jun 9, 2009

hough123 said:
I assumed that most of these wouldn't make it out of theory, but it's all about trying.
So we do have a chain on Ganon, Falcon, and Snake? If so, at least I found something that worked

Also, ROB and Charizard are only so high because of their big heads =\

So I still need to:

-Test %'s effects on knockback.

-Test Uthrow 2x + Forcepalm on Fox.

when testing the force palm, just remember to try to shine of of the throw with fox. its the only way to test it properly ^_^

hough123 · Jun 9, 2009

iRJi said:
when testing the force palm, just remember to try to shine of of the throw with fox. its the only way to test it properly ^_^

K, I'll use my third arm to shine with ^.^

And the knock back data is surprising, also long, tedious, and long. I've done four in thirty minutes, and they all have a seemingly random amount knock back added to them. They also have awful tumble positions that make them fling their limbs all over the place, and make them go a shorter distance.

Only 35 to go =D

EDIT: We can't D: The transition to FP allows a window to shine in. We should be able to DT though.
EDIT 2: What exactly am I looking for when I test the effects of %'s on knock back?

CaliburChamp · Jun 9, 2009

Good info guys.
Let's talk about high damaging throw combos and grab set ups.

Jab + grab is probably the best option.

Another thing that I found useful is Lucario's AS charge while edge guarding certain character's. Of course it won't work on MK and some other's but it's a viable option for the characters that have a mediocre of poor recovery.

iRJi · Jun 9, 2009

hough123 said:
K, I'll use my third arm to shine with ^.^

And the knock back data is surprising, also long, tedious, and long. I've done four in thirty minutes, and they all have a seemingly random amount knock back added to them. They also have awful tumble positions that make them fling their limbs all over the place, and make them go a shorter distance.

Only 35 to go =D

EDIT: We can't D: The transition to FP allows a window to shine in. We should be able to DT though.
EDIT 2: What exactly am I looking for when I test the effects of %'s on knock back?

Honestly, no clue. look for setups mainly. other then that if you find anything interesting let us know =]

Also if you DT, he can just dodge it. best bet is to just U throwx2 + D or B throw for max damage.

|RK| · Jun 9, 2009

WakerofWinds said:
long post of informational info.

Did you try two stocks down? I believe that will block more effectively...

Nice post, btw.

WakerofWinds · Jun 9, 2009

CaliburChamp said:
Another thing that I found useful is Lucario's AS charge while edge guarding certain character's. Of course it won't work on MK and some other's but it's a viable option for the characters that have a mediocre of poor recovery.

It works particularly well against Wolf, who gets both is sideB and upB stopped by it. It probably works well against fox and falco too, as long as they're recovering from below the stage.

RK Joker said:
Did you try two stocks down? I believe that will block more effectively...

Nice post, btw.

XP I'm sure it would block it more effectively, but actually no I did all of that in training mode, so, there wasn't really a way to set it down by 2 stocks.

hough123 · Jun 9, 2009

iRJi said:
Honestly, no clue. look for setups mainly. other then that if you find anything interesting let us know =]

Also if you DT, he can just dodge it. best bet is to just U throwx2 + D or B throw for max damage.

I've covered 16 characters now, ten tests each D=
I'll supply one HUGE chart at the end of my testing, (40 by 12), to make it easy to use.

Also, how can this data be used? I'd think that we could investigate the characters who are consistently thrown low to find potential combos, among other things.

WakerofWinds said:
It works particularly well against Wolf, who gets both is sideB and upB stopped by it. It probably works well against fox and falco too, as long as they're recovering from below the stage.

XP I'm sure it would block it more effectively, but actually no I did all of that in training mode, so, there wasn't really a way to set it down by 2 stocks.

Training mode keeps track of stocks, die on Pokemon Stadium 1 and wait for it to tell you who's winning. This would mean that your stock aura boost still works.

Kitamerby · Jun 9, 2009

Reverse Double Team is guaranteed on all Ness PK Fire up until the very very tip. Just a fun fact.

LordoftheMorning · Jun 9, 2009

Whew. Exhausting update. I organized WakerofWind's stuff on aura charge and put it in the OP. That took a while. I'll do the Uthrow data sometime later.

hough123 · Jun 9, 2009

Cool update :D

Did you see my recomended format for the first page?

Up Throw's Mindgame Potential

The Question: How does Uthrow's knock back change based on aura, enemy, and enemy %'s? Also, what mindgames or approaches could come from it?

The Test: Find the trajectory of a Uthrow, testing aura boosts, enemies, and enemy %'s.

In-Game Testing: Analyze opponent's reactionary pattern to being Uthrow'd and look for ways to exploit it.

-Hough123 is currently looking into this| Question/Idea posed by Ph1lny3-

This provides a constant format for you to use.

LordoftheMorning · Jun 9, 2009

hough123 said:
Cool update :D

Did you see my recomended format for the first page?

This provides a constant format for you to use.

Yeah I'll get to that. I don't have the time immediately. Do you want me to wait until your Uthrow stuff is done to post it up?

hough123 · Jun 9, 2009

LordoftheMorning said:
Yeah I'll get to that. I don't have the time immediately. Do you want me to wait until your Uthrow stuff is done to post it up?

Sure, I've finished gathering the data and am making a chart as we type.

Also, I could copy and edit that section then post it for you if you'd like.

hough123 · Jun 9, 2009

After a full day of thorough testing, I'm finally done with the chart.

With no DI, here is the upwards knockback of a fresh Uthrow:

Bask in awe in the face of this MASSIVE 40 X 12 chart of pure win.

WakerofWinds · Jun 9, 2009

Wow... that's quite the chart you have there. Impressive.

I'd also like to ask a question very quickly, seems this thread might be the best place to do it.

We all know that dair halts your momentum, but I've had moments where I was able to continue falling at a normal pace while using dair. I did this about 3 times while facing a computer just messing around with Lucario... is there a known way to do this every time, or has anybody else noticed/seen this happen?

Might just be a weird glitch in my game... I don't know.

hough123 · Jun 9, 2009

WakerofWinds said:
Wow... that's quite the chart you have there. Impressive.

I'd also like to ask a question very quickly, seems this thread might be the best place to do it.

We all know that dair halts your momentum, but I've had moments where I was able to continue falling at a normal pace while using dair. I did this about 3 times while facing a computer just messing around with Lucario... is there a known way to do this every time, or has anybody else noticed/seen this happen?

Might just be a weird glitch in my game... I don't know.

I assumed this was well known; but as a great man once said: "Never assume."

This happens with any move changing your momentum, like TL's Dair. After getting hit, the game doesn't let you cancel the hit's momentum, as to allow the opponent a fair hit. It would be best to wait a second before using Dair to cancel your momentum, although Fair is better at it.

And thank you =D

WakerofWinds · Jun 9, 2009

hough123 said:
I assumed this was well known; but as a great man once said: "Never assume."

This happens with any move changing your momentum, like TL's Dair. After getting hit, the game doesn't let you cancel the hit's momentum, as to allow the opponent a fair hit. It would be best to wait a second before using Dair to cancel your momentum, although Fair is better at it.

And thank you =D

Well I know that much, but I mean this was after I'd already jumped after being, and having used a momentum stopping dair beforehand... Maybe I'm just seeing things. <_<

hough123 · Jun 9, 2009

WakerofWinds said:
Well I know that much, but I mean this was after I'd already jumped after being, and having used a momentum stopping dair beforehand... Maybe I'm just seeing things. <_<

Oh, I'm sorry D=

I'd go with the fact that you're seeing things until we can test it.

iRJi · Jun 9, 2009

Its a mini glitch to the game. The same theory still applies in this case. When you are hit and sent in a direction with knock Back, you can use D-air and it will not stop you in the air. You're momentum must come to a complete stop and you much have full control of Lucario in order for it to stop you. If you still have a momentum boost it will just let you fall, even if you are already moving into the other direction you were once originally hit.

Edit: save that chart BTW. I am going to be making a post soon and I want everyone's opinion on it, because it is something that will involve almost everyone who can participate and has vast knowledge about Lucario. I am thinking we work on a whole new guide. The old one is old and dusty, and we need a new one.

WakerofWinds · Jun 9, 2009

iRJi said:
Its a mini glitch to the game. The same theory still applies in this case. When you are hit and sent in a direction with knock Back, you can use D-air and it will not stop you in the air. You're momentum must come to a complete stop and you much have full control of Lucario in order for it to stop you. If you still have a momentum boost it will just let you fall, even if you are already moving into the other direction you were once originally hit.

That makes sense. Thanks for the answer. Anyway... I'll see what I can do about those other Aura Charge things that need to be tested.

LordoftheMorning · Jun 10, 2009

Hey, nice chart! But what's the unit? Blocks of custom stage material?

iRJi · Jun 10, 2009

Which reminds me. Hough*, take a screenshot of the map you tested on and upload it with the chart. That way everyone can get a better estimate.

WakerofWinds · Jun 10, 2009

Anyway, back to testing for the Aura Charge.

I'll organize it the same way as my last post... hope that's okay. You put a lot of work into your editing there. Oh, and a note, I just did everything by 50% last time, since that makes it easier to do.

Important note about all grabs (excluding TL/Link/Lucas/Samus/Ivysaur/Yoshi): They are all VERY difficult to pull off at higher %s, even if it IS possible to go through AC with them.

-----------------------------------------
Diddy Kong:

Monkey Flip Kick- Cannot be blocked at any % (even with 2 stocks down) unless the Diddy messes up.

Grab- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down) if the Diddy knows what he's doing.
Note: This is both dashing AND standing grabs.
Note 2: Still a decent mind game.

Dash attack- at 0% there's a chance for both Lucario and Diddy to be hit, but Diddy can break through without being hurt. At 120% it becomes extremely difficult for Diddy to break through without being hurt. It's still possible (I tested it up to 160% when it was very difficult to do, but still possible... I only managed it one time out of about 25 tries) but very unlikely.
------------------------------------------

Mario:

Bair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Grab- Able to go through AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down) if the Mario knows what he's doing.
Note: This is both dashing AND standing grabs.
Note 2: Still a possible mind game if the Mario doesn't expect it (which he won't).
------------------------------------------
(Note: I stopped doing standing grabs because really, who's gonna just stand there to grab you?)

Link:

Zair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Grab- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

I'm pretty bad with Link... somebody else will probably want to test his nair.
------------------------------------------

Samus:

Zair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Grab- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).
------------------------------------------

Fox:

UpB- Able to stop it at any % (although it's possible for both lucario and fox to get hit at lower %s).

Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Nair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Dair- I managed to get dair to go through at max damage (with 2 stocks down). But it wasn't easy, it's probably not a viable approach from the side.

Grab- Able to go through AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down).
------------------------------------------

Pikachu:

Fair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Grab- Able to go through AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Dash Attack- Able to go through AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down).
Note: However, it is hard for the pikachu to break through the AC around 150%
------------------------------------------

G&W:

Fair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Dash Attack-Able to go through AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Grab- Able to go through AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Bair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).
------------------------------------------

Luigi:

Tornado- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Fair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Dash Attack- Able to go through AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Grab- Able to go through AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Bair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).
------------------------------------------

Zelda:

Grab- Able to go through AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Fair/Bair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down)
------------------------------------------

Shiek:

Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Grab- Able to go through AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Fair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Bair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Ftilt- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Chain-Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Somebody else will need to do DACUS, I'm not really good at that technique.
------------------------------------------

Pit:

Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Fair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Bair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Grab- Able to go through AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down).
------------------------------------------

MK:

Tornado- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Fair- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Glide Attack-Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Dash Attack-Able to go through AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Grab- Able to go through AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down).
------------------------------------------

Olimar:

Grab- Cannot be blocked by AC at any % [and yes, any color pikmin can go through] (even with 2 stocks down).

Fair- Cannot be stopped by AC at any % (that's any color pikmin, and thats even with 2 stocks down).
------------------------------------------

D3:

Grab- Can go through the AC a any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Ftilt- Cannot be stopped at any % (even with 2 stocks down).

Bair- Can go through the AC at any % (even with 2 stocks down). This does require decent placement by the Dedede player though.
-----------------------------------------

Here's what I have for now. I'm posting it now because I think I'm going to go to bed, either way I need a break from Brawl.

Post any questions you have, I'll check and try to answer them.

Note: This was done in training mode, so, assuming that counts stock (as I was told it does) then all the information about stocks is correct.

Edit: Also on Charizard I tried Fair, dash attack, flamethrower, and rock smash. (since details were obviously needed XD).

Edit 2: Random things I'm remembering while reading what's still needed. Anyway, IC's blizzard outranges the AC.

phi1ny3 · Jun 10, 2009

Got the info for that dtilt stuff you wanted RJ.
In training mode (aka no staling), at max aura, lucario is able to kill these three from the middle of FD (and this includes DI):
MK: ~135%
Bowser: ~155%
G&W (without bucket braking): ~130%
~= estimation
This is with DI + aerial momentum cancelling, and these are estimates, but the conclusion is that dtilt is not a viable kill move, as these are all at max aura (not taking stock consideration), and G&W was without bucket braking (since my younger brother who was helping me by DI'ing didn't know how to do it very well).
Nice chart Hought.

iRJi · Jun 10, 2009

phi1ny3 said:
Got the info for that dtilt stuff you wanted RJ.
In training mode (aka no staling), at max aura, lucario is able to kill these three from the middle of FD (and this includes DI):
MK: ~135%
Bowser: ~155%
G&W (without bucket braking): ~130%
~= estimation
This is with DI + aerial momentum cancelling, and these are estimates, but the conclusion is that dtilt is not a viable kill move, as these are all at max aura (not taking stock consideration), and G&W was without bucket braking (since my younger brother who was helping me by DI'ing didn't know how to do it very well).
Nice chart Hought.

TY for your help =D but Awe =[. I been testing all day myself, but nothing came of it. Will give it another go tomorrow. I still need to talk to you about the Frame Data and we might prob make a new guide and I will need you help if we do take it that far. But the frame Data is the main thing ^_^

WakerofWinds · Jun 10, 2009

Back to this now! New post because editing the old one was kind of dumb. I did it with D3 and Olimar... and just, it wasn't nearly as fun as actually just posting it up. :laugh:

Anyway, here we go again. Same notes as before. Adding onto the grab note from last time: grabbing with a lot of these characters through it is a LOT more difficult than it sounds... Also... it gets difficult to grab (with most) in between 150-170. Anyway... CONTINUE!? Y/N

Y!

Starting with Falco this time. :chuckle:

-----------------------------------------

Falco:

Grab- Can go through the AC at any %.

Bair- Cannot be stopped by AC at any %.

Dair- I wouldn't really say it went THROUGH the AC, but it's extremely easy to get around it, even with a SHDair coming from the side. (that's at any %).

Note on his side B: when I said pretty close, I mean, like, right up next to Lucario's AC without being hit by it.
-----------------------------------------

Squirtle:

Fair- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Bair- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Grab- I was able to break through the AC at any %... but it took like 50 tries to do at 170%.
It gets easier to break through at 150% (which only took me 3 tries).

Dash Attack- Able to break through the AC at any %.

I really don't know what a shellshifted usmash is though.
-----------------------------------------

Ivysaur:

Bair- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Fair- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Grab- Grab easily goes through at any %.

Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.
-----------------------------------------

Ike:

Fair- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Grab- Able to go through at any %.
-----------------------------------------

Snake:

Ftilt- Able to go through at any %.

Utilt- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Grab- Able to go through at any %.

Again... somebody else is going to need to test DACUS.
-----------------------------------------

Peach:

Fair-Cannot be stopped at any %.

Bair- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Grab- Able to go through at any %.

Hovering Dair- I'm not really sure how low it goes, but the lowest I got it (tapping tap jump and y at the same time, fast enough to do a zap jump with lucas if you know what that is) was able to go through it easily at any %.
-----------------------------------------

Yoshi:

B move/Grab- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Bair- Able to go through at any %.

Dair approach- Cannot be stopped at any %.
-----------------------------------------

Ganondorf:

Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Grab- Able to go through at any %.

Fair- Cannot be stopped at any %.
-----------------------------------------

ICs:

Blizzard- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Grab- Able to go through at any %.

Dash Attack- Cannot be stopped at any %.
-----------------------------------------

Lucario (YAY!):

Dash Attack- Interestingly enough, at around 100% it becomes extremely hard to break through AC with dash attack.

Grab- Able to go through at any %.

Fair- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Bair- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Force Palm- Can go through at any % on either Lucario.
-----------------------------------------

Ness:

Bair- Able to go through at any %.

Fair- Cannot be stopped at any %.

Grab- Able to go through at any %.

PKT2- AC stops it at any %.
-----------------------------------------

Sonic:

Grab- Able to go through AC at any %.

Fair- Possible to go through AC at any %.

Bair- Cannot be stopped at any %.
-----------------------------------------

Bowser:

Grab- Pretty easy to grab through AC at any %.
-----------------------------------------

Wario:

Bair- Cannot be blocked at any %.

Dair-Dair only broke it from the side at 0%. And, on an even nice note, even when Wario was directly on top of of Lucario (starting at about 100%) it still either didn't hit Lucario, or it hit both Lucario and Wario.

Nair- Nair can break through up to about 50%, but even at 0% it's very difficult.

Fair- Able to go through at any %.

Grab- Possible to go through at any %.
-----------------------------------------

Okay I'm going to stop here again. Only... 5 characters with stuff left (other than the ones with techniques I can't do).

thenewaol · Jun 10, 2009

would it be possible to test the interval between hitboxes of the aura sphere charge? that and the shieldstun it has. if it was really fast (like a hit every 4 frames or something) then it would make AS awesome for shield pressure.

Aurasmash14 · Jun 10, 2009

umm im sorry guys but i cant continue with the DT testing im just too short on time. can somebody else do it?

Kitamerby · Jun 10, 2009

What did I tell you guys? You could call Luc a nasty name and he'll be knocked out of Aura Sphere Charge.

God I miss Shadow Ball.

hough123 · Jun 10, 2009

Hey, nice chart! But what's the unit? Blocks of custom stage material?

Yes, they were based off of the custom stage blocks. The stage was a medium sized stage with blocks covering the left and bottom sides. You forgot to put that it didn't have DI, that's an important factor.

And I forgot to give you guys Lucario's short hop and full hop data:
Short Hop- 1.8
Full Hop- 2.6

This should complete what's needed to give us a good idea of combos\aproaches\etc.

And my name is Hough, not hought =\
Pronounced like rough, or tough.

iRJi · Jun 10, 2009

hough123 said:
Yes, they were based off of the custom stage blocks. The stage was a medium sized stage with blocks covering the left and bottom sides. You forgot to put that it didn't have DI, that's an important factor.

And I forgot to give you guys Lucario's short hop and full hop data:
Short Hop- 1.8
Full Hop- 2.6

This should complete what's needed to give us a good idea of combos\aproaches\etc.

And my name is Hough, not hought =\
Pronounced like rough, or tough.

Sorry, its a habbit for me to almost finish the complete word lol. Fixed ^_^

hough123 · Jun 10, 2009

iRJi said:
Sorry, its a habbit for me to almost finish the complete word lol. Fixed ^_^

Oh, because of the one? It's fine =D

And I was thinking of some future tests;

What are Lucario's options out of a footstool besides the obvious Dair?
I was playing around with Lucario's Jab-Jab-FP, and I wondered if we could punish their atempt of punishing us with a Nair or something.

And WakeroftheWinds, I was wrong about the stock thing. I am EXTREMELY sorry about that, as PS1 tricked me. I tested it myself and it didn't carry over the stock. Again, I am EXTREMELY sorry D'=

CaliburChamp · Jun 10, 2009

Kitamerby said:
What did I tell you guys? You could call Luc a nasty name and he'll be knocked out of Aura Sphere Charge.

God I miss Shadow Ball.

I rather have Aura Sphere over Shadow Ball anyday.

LordoftheMorning · Jun 10, 2009

Good stuff guys. I actually think AS Charge might have some possibilities, despite it's low priority. I'll update this sometime this afternoon or this evening. I've got somewhere to go in 5 minutes.

WakerofWinds · Jun 10, 2009

hough123 said:
And WakeroftheWinds, I was wrong about the stock thing. I am EXTREMELY sorry about that, as PS1 tricked me. I tested it myself and it didn't carry over the stock. Again, I am EXTREMELY sorry D'=

No worries. It took maybe a whole, like, 10 extra seconds to kill Lucario off twice in training mode. And maybe like, 2 movements of the thumb. :laugh:

I'd also like the add that looking into Usmash as a shield type technique would be a good idea. It clanked with a Wolf's dsmash the other day, while Lucario was around 100%.

|RK| · Jun 10, 2009

Hrm. So then do you have two controllers, Waker? You should have a Game Cube Controller and a Wiimote. Then just check VS mode. I'm not rushing you; you've already done an excellent job.

WakerofWinds · Jun 10, 2009

I do actually. I have 2 wiimotes and 4 GC controllers. :laugh:

So... for most of the ones that don't go through at higher %'s I could just do special brawl. That's easy enough. I'll get around to it when I can.

hough123 · Jun 10, 2009

WakerofWinds said:
No worries. It took maybe a whole, like, 10 extra seconds to kill Lucario off twice in training mode. And maybe like, 2 movements of the thumb.

I'd also like the add that looking into Usmash as a shield type technique would be a good idea. It clanked with a Wolf's dsmash the other day, while Lucario was around 100%.

No, T'm sorry because you have to retest all of that D:

WakerofWinds · Jun 10, 2009

hough123 said:
No, T'm sorry because you have to retest all of that D:

Eh, no I don't, not really anyway. All of that stuff still applies when you're on even stock. Not to mention that being at -2 stock is pretty situational, so what we have is okay for now, well, in my opinion anyway.

Basically the way I see it, Aura Charge is a good mind game against a few characters. I'd also like to note that an uncharged aura sphere stops Lucas' and Ness' PKT2s.

hough123 · Jun 10, 2009

I'm pretty much done with the Uthrow testing, so I can start on a new project if needed.

G-Beast · Jun 10, 2009

hmmmm i like the looks of what AC can bring...

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