Lucario Brainstorm Thread (Updating Soon.)

[phi1ny3]

I like even more the fact that ASC cancels into shield, which we all know can lovely be jumped out of, and I often dair afterwords if they try anything to stop me from my ASC on the ground.
I also agree that someone needs to test some moar footstool stuff.

 

[Aurasmash14]

Is there really no one who is going to continue with the DT testing? i really just cant do it.

 

[phi1ny3]

What are we testing with DT again? I might continue it (if my brother has patience with the expiriments).

 

[Aurasmash14]

i was testing if we can use DT to see if it can gimp (or at least disrupt ) any enemies' recovery. it doesnt necessarily have to kill. just get it to hit.

 

[hough123]

i was testing if we can use DT to see if it can gimp (or at least disrupt ) any enemies' recovery. it doesnt necessarily have to kill. just get it to hit.

My Uthrow testing is over, so I could pick it up.
I just need all the data you've collected so far

I'd now like to discuss my previous ideas to see if they are viable for testing:

1. Lucario's options out of a footstool.
2. Potential finishers for the Jab-Jab-___ combo. People expect a grab, so we might be able to punish them with an aerial or something.
3. The Shiek boards have come up with combos that work only with move decay. We could investigate if we could use this too.

EDIT: I added an epiphany I just got.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

From what I can understand we can upthrow chaingrab Fox till 25%. If this is true then does that mean we can chaingrab, Shiek, Captain Falcon, Wolf, and ganon for a bit?

I've tested this a bit, we can chaingrab them because Luc grabs people with his ears.

It works on all of them, if Wolf or Fox shine out of it, then your not doing it fast enough.

 

[hough123]

From what I can understand we can upthrow chaingrab Fox till 25%. If this is true then does that mean we can chaingrab, Shiek, Captain Falcon, Wolf, and ganon for a bit?

I've tested this a bit, we can chaingrab them because Luc grabs people with his ears.

It works on all of them, if Wolf or Fox shine out of it, then your not doing it fast enough.

That's what I said
RJ told me that they should be able to shine out of it anyway, as all they have to do if mash the b button and down until they do. He said nothing about Ganon and Falcon, though. He did say that Shiek can somehow escape, but was not descriptive, so IDK.


Re-edit- I'd rather not do the DT testing actually, I don't have anyone to Recover\DT with =\
I CAN take up the footstool testing, though.

K, Lucario can't do crap out of a footstool besides Dair and DT =\

 

[iRJi]

Lol on the chain grabs again. Ill go over it a bit more detailed this time.

As of the current moment the only character that is known to get chain grabbed is fox. YOu can do this combination:

Uthrow 2x + Grab
Uthrow 3x + retreat

If you try to do anything else other then those combinations fox can Shine out of it. Wolf can be chain grabbed, but has the option to shine out of it at any time he desires. If the wolf fails to shine thats his error, not your proness of grabbing lol. as for other characters, I am not sure about. That is up to you if you want to test it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lol on the chain grabs again. Ill go over it a bit more detailed this time.

As of the current moment the only character that is known to get chain grabbed is fox. YOu can do this combination:

Uthrow 2x + Grab
Uthrow 3x + retreat

If you try to do anything else other then those combinations fox can Shine out of it. Wolf can be chain grabbed, but has the option to shine out of it at any time he desires. If the wolf fails to shine thats his error, not your proness of grabbing lol. as for other characters, I am not sure about. That is up to you if you want to test it.

My friends must not have been mashing enough as Wolf.

I'm almost positive that it works on Ganon and Falcon.

Shiek I'm beginning to question if it will work on her.

 

[WakerofWinds]

I can do the recoveries for somebody if you feel like wi-fi testing is accurate enough. Which would really be the only way to do it.

 

[Kitamerby]

I rather have Aura Sphere over Shadow Ball anyday.

No you wouldn't, honestly.

Shadow Ball was basically a capped Aura Sphere that could be performed at any time, often avoiding reflectors and being eaten through by attacks simply from its jagged flight path. The charge itself had incredible priority and could gimp some characters all by itself if done properly.

Also it exploded upon impact with a wall.

I have no idea why the heck you would say otherwise, honestly, unless you're often behind 2 stocks and at max aura, Shadow Ball would pretty much always be better.


Also, the idea of double teaming recoveries is pretty redundant simply because we can just fsmash them away for possibly a much earlier kill % with much much less risk and set-up. Not to mention the fact that double teaming recoveries sounds pretty silly in its own right. If you're going to test double team, test it on moves that actually matter, like laggy kill moves or aerials that don't autocancel, or hell even short-ranged projectiles like PK Fire.



Also, move decay combos are moot because of aura bonus constantly fscking it up.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh Lucario, you and your silly Aura boost makes algebra into calculus.

 

[phi1ny3]

Not to mention Baby Shadow ball had a much better follow up thanks to mewtwo's wavedash ->dtilt/grab. Also because of no knockback staling, Shadow Ball pretty much was a really creepy kill move when it connected.
Also Kita, I know that what you're saying is meaningful and true in most situations, but this isn't the logical thinking thread. This is an attempt to fish for any new things.
Oh yeah, I think another thing that those who are doing ASC might want to mention (I don't know if they did or not), but pikmin thrown via sideB CANNOT hurt you if you're facing away from them. This is actually semi-viable stuff, just as long as you're not too slow and get grabbed X.X
Edit: Yeah, already mentioned.

 

[hough123]

Also, move decay combos are moot because of aura bonus constantly fscking it up.

That's very true j

 

[Aurasmash14]

No you wouldn't, honestly.

Shadow Ball was basically a capped Aura Sphere that could be performed at any time, often avoiding reflectors and being eaten through by attacks simply from its jagged flight path. The charge itself had incredible priority and could gimp some characters all by itself if done properly.

Also it exploded upon impact with a wall.

I have no idea why the heck you would say otherwise, honestly, unless you're often behind 2 stocks and at max aura, Shadow Ball would pretty much always be better.


Also, the idea of double teaming recoveries is pretty redundant simply because we can just fsmash them away for possibly a much earlier kill % with much much less risk and set-up. Not to mention the fact that double teaming recoveries sounds pretty silly in its own right. If you're going to test double team, test it on moves that actually matter, like laggy kill moves or aerials that don't autocancel, or hell even short-ranged projectiles like PK Fire.



Also, move decay combos are moot because of aura bonus constantly fscking it up.

I never thought of that (lol why didnt i?) can someone do it? i already have school on Monday (noooooo!!!!)

 

[A New England Winter]

Quick fact: Falco's hurtbox extends past the hitbox of Side-B about halfway through the move. After that he can be hit by anything.

I like using DSmash against characters that recover from the side or low-side. Any merit in that?

Also: At lower percents, FPG -> Dash Grab -> UThrow -> Utilt works for me, and I'm wondering if it's a legit combo/string. Testing from other 'Carios would be cool.

(^ can we call it "Xaoz Combo" if it works? :3)

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh, and I think I've found a way to make ES more safe coming onto the stage, but I have to test more on it.
lol Xaoz, wasn't fsmash -> utaunt the "Xaoz Combo"?

 

[CaliburChamp]

AS has a larger hit box and can be more powerful with more knockback. I rather have that than a jagged moving Shadow Ball. True though, SB > AS at low %. Mid-high% is a different story.

Lucario's need's a good gimp move to compensate for when Lucario is weak at low %. I wish side b was able to grab in the air and spike your opponent downward. Somewhat like Diddy's side b grab, jump. Imagine, F-air, F-air, side b spike! SEX!

 

[hough123]

Oh, and I think I've found a way to make ES more safe coming onto the stage, but I have to test more on it.
lol Xaoz, wasn't fsmash -> utaunt the "Xaoz Combo"?

On a scale of one to ten, how much more safe are we talking about?
One being adding wind, ten being Lucario blows up upon impact with the ground yet receives no knockback or damage. (I can dream T.T)

 

[phi1ny3]

It's like a 2-4 depending on how far you can get the bounce to go. Ted talked about it before, but it's directing the bounce when you hit downward onto the stage. It seems if you quickly flick the analog stick from your normal direction to a far right or left (depends on which side you're recovering), you'll do a far bounce, which can get pretty far (the farthest I've gotten is covering about a 1/3-1/2 of BF and FD). Like I said, needs more testing (like how far you need to be from the stage to get a far bounce) but if it does, it will make any one who is edge hogging practically unable to get up in enough time to retaliate (unless they have like a projectile or if they are anticipating it).

 

[hough123]

It's like a 2-4 depending on how far you can get the bounce to go. Ted talked about it before, but it's directing the bounce when you hit downward onto the stage. It seems if you quickly flick the analog stick from your normal direction to a far right or left (depends on which side you're recovering), you'll do a far bounce, which can get pretty far (the farthest I've gotten is covering about a 1/3-1/2 of BF and FD). Like I said, needs more testing (like how far you need to be from the stage to get a far bounce) but if it does, it will make any one who is edge hogging practically unable to get up in enough time to retaliate (unless they have like a projectile or if they are anticipating it).

Wow, I'll try this myself ASAP!
I expected a two or something, but this is a pleasant surprise.

 

[phi1ny3]

Make sure you flick when you bounce, not while the ES animation is still going, otherwise it will just do ES along the stage.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Okay guys. I'm leaving tomorrow and I'll be awake. That means one more big update. I'm going to add footstool and jab cancel set ups to the questions list. Anything else? I think maybe I should leave phil's ES voodoo off for now until he tests a bit more. I do you want me to go ahead and put that up as well?

 

[hough123]

Okay guys. I'm leaving tomorrow and I'll be awake. That means one more big update. I'm going to add footstool and jab cancel set ups to the questions list. Anything else? I think maybe I should leave phil's ES voodoo off for now until he tests a bit more. I do you want me to go ahead and put that up as well?

Don't post the Footstool question, I tested it and Lucario can't do much if anything. =\

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Don't post the Footstool question, I tested it and Lucario can't do much if anything. =\

Take heart, young Lucario, for this is a place where no idea will be disregarded. I'll keep it up there. It's possible no one will ever answer it. It's also possible that someone will answer it a year from now. All that matters is that it's there, so no potential is lost. That's the point of the Brainstorm.

I finished updating. I think.

 

[tedward2000]

Heh, I was working on Footstooling stuff the other day.

Which End result, not much. If you have lightning fingers, then you can get a D-air in after a footstool. But lucario jumps a wicked amount per footstool. Your best option is using it for Gimping people off stage.

And whats the best way to do this?!? F-air. If you can kick them away from the stage enough, you can A) Footstool them, B) Gimp them.
This however means your using ES to get back after the 2nd or 3rd Fair (depending on how far away you are)

(RANDOM INFO)
You know below each edge on SmashVille, the platform has 45 degree angle-ish sides. Well, if you ES into any part of that angle, Lucario slides Up and instantly grabs the ledge. Try it, you can be somewhat under the stage (to the point that ES wont work normally) and curve into the last bit of the Angle, Lucario slides up and to safety.


Soooooo...... DL;TR, Bat them away enough with f-air, and then ES to gimp them.
-t2

 

[hough123]

Take heart, young Lucario, for this is a place where no idea will be disregarded. I'll keep it up there. It's possible no one will ever answer it. It's also possible that someone will answer it a year from now. All that matters is that it's there, so no potential is lost. That's the point of the Brainstorm.

I finished updating. I think.

It was my question, and Tedward's post pretty much comfirmed what I said

 

[Aurasmash14]

A question about your ES bounce phil, can you attack out of it? it would be useful in deterring an attack.

 

[A New England Winter]

Oh, and I think I've found a way to make ES more safe coming onto the stage, but I have to test more on it.
lol Xaoz, wasn't fsmash -> utaunt the "Xaoz Combo"?

That's just beastin'. And it was FFNair -> UTaunt anyways.

Besides, I like this combo more, enough so I'd put my name on it for serious reasons. It's a (possible) super effective combo that I think could actually be useful for real play. It puts you in a good position for more attacks, or at least them in a bad enough position to want to retreat from your beastness. Plus instead of UTilting on certain characters you can get a regrab, a stutterstep-back Force Palm, or 2 Utilts, all of which puts you into good situations. I want the combo tested by everyone because of my lack of fidelity in terms of proper DI testing, but it definitely has a large amount of potential.

Plus, I'm ****in' Xaoz. Recognize. Son.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I've discovered the following on the upthrow chaingrab.

Shiek can escape by jumping out if they time it right, just to confirm what RJ said.

Fox is for about 3 upthrows, it's the same for Ganon and Falcon, after the third throw they can Falcon kick and wizard foot out of it, however I haven't tested the shield to grab idea after they attempt this.

Wolf just shines outs.

That is all.

 

[hough123]

I've discovered the following on the upthrow chaingrab.

Shiek can escape by jumping out if they time it right, just to confirm what RJ said.

Fox is for about 3 upthrows, it's the same for Ganon and Falcon, after the third throw they can Falcon kick and wizard foot out of it, however I haven't tested the shield to grab idea after they attempt this.

Wolf just shines outs.

That is all.

Awwwwww D:
We need to look into other uses for my uber chart other than chain grabs .-.
Like how I posted Lucario's SH and Full Hop data earlier? (hinthinthint)

 

[Aurasmash14]

you mean following up with strings?

 

[phi1ny3]

Just so you know guys, I tested the "CG" on wolf, and it is officially a tech chase, however, it's only a matter of how long you hold the shield, he can't jump out of it even if you do regular shield grab, but if he shines, you'll have to hold you shield for a little longer. Unlike what has been said here, you can get him before he jumps if you do a quick shield grab. Now here's another interesting fact from testing: theoretically, you could get this frame perfect with the shield grab and absorb his shine while instantly grabbing him. The only problem is that it is very frame specific, like marth spiking MK out of air release specific (that's one frame of error). I haven't tested what ports will do to affect this, but so far, we have an official tech chase on wolf. Also, wolf has to time the shine, he can mash downB until after the third grab.
Edit: different results from other people!?! Impossible!

 

[Aurasmash14]

uh phil about the ES bounce?

edit- i luvz the sig ted

 

[phi1ny3]

It doesn't get as good of a bounce as I'd hope for, so far, it seems to just give lucario's recovery a little more zing when aiming it back onstage, but this is if you're not playing a good MK or someone with good planking ranged options. I'd give it a 2 or 3 in improvement, since most of the time when you're that close before firing your opponent can get a little dangerous.
also, ftilt is cool, it stops landing, decent shield pressure (and poking) properties, and sometimes (haven't tested it) it works on fatties like bowser as makeshift FP in terms of trajectory (in other words, it potentially can continue the FPCG in a pseudo style on big guys), so against Kevin's bowser I usually do things like:
A - FP-FP-walk to ftilt, sometimes even another one if he didn't DI low, then finish with fair - nair, then a running grab to either uthrow, bthrow, or dthrow, and it seems pretty legitimate so far. Needs more testing.

 

[Aurasmash14]

This might work, A - FP-FP -Dtilt- fair-nair-AS sends boozer pretty far but can be DI'ed lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

I always was a little wary of anything with AS, but I've done things like that, and it's too good!
The best thing about this ftilt thing is that it does nearly the same knockback as FP on big, heavy hitboxes, but does more damage iirc.

 

[WakerofWinds]

I really like using ftilt for spacing and some great mind games (mind games... every move is a mind game o.O I really hate the phrase but I seem to use it a lot). People never expect the second hit, and they can't really do a whole lot to you oos anyway if you space it right, at least, seems that way to me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Confirming, upthrow chaingrab on wolf is a tech chase. I've tested the grab mechanics a bit and science has agreed with phi1ny3.

I'll test to see how this holds up on Falcon/Ganon.

 

[DRK]

I just tested Snake's DACUS against AS Charge in training. What I got was actually pretty encouraging. During the first part of his DACUS (dash attack hitbox) he can hit us at any %. The second hitbox (pulling out the mortar) hits us at lower %s, but seems to be stopped at about 100%. When he's just sliding with the mortar out, he's stopped at any %, which surprised me.

We have something, albeit tiny, against the guy!



Just tell me if you need me to work on anything else.