Kirby Matchup Discussion

Discussion of the Kirby Matchup should take place here.

Go!

I know kirby has some little mini chain grab combo things on snake at low percents, but its probably hard for him to get close if you're spacing right. If you play keep away it should be hard to kill you with fsmash since it has alot of ending lag and is easy to punish. Just watch for it when you're dropping from the air when they might charge it to catch your air dodge or something or clash with a bair if thats possible.

I'd say 55/45 snake, because kirby has those cg's or w/e and he can beat up snake pretty badly offstage, but snake seems to have the dominance onstage.

I called the Kirby mains

We can DI out of fthrow>uair. Or simply pull a 'nade.

For the dthrow, SDI up and away + pull a grenade. The kirby should utilt and you both blow up.

So no CG's, sorry.

Matchup wise, it's in Snakes favor. Kirby simply lacks the range of the ability to camp (unless he steals your grenade power) so just camp a bit and when he gets close, ftilt/utilt.

Dthrow is pretty good in this matchup IIRC.

However if the Kirby does get in, or get Snake in the air, it can be a huge problem. Kirby is great at juggling, especially heavyweights.

SuSa said:

We can DI out of fthrow>uair. Or simply pull a 'nade.

For the dthrow, SDI up and away + pull a grenade. The kirby should utilt and you both blow up.

So no CG's, sorry.

Matchup wise, it's in Snakes favor. Kirby simply lacks the range of the ability to camp (unless he steals your grenade power) so just camp a bit and when he gets close, ftilt/utilt.

Dthrow is pretty good in this matchup IIRC.

However if the Kirby does get in, or get Snake in the air, it can be a huge problem. Kirby is great at juggling, especially heavyweights.

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But when you get hit with the dthrow then the tilt/aerial and pull a nade at the same time you take alot of damage still, around 30+%? and he only takes 10 or so. Not too bad, but its still not the best thing ever. I guess ftilt makes up for it

hi, Kewkky plays against my Snake a lot. I think this matchup is obviously Snake's advantage, the only thing kirby can do is bait until the Snake do a mistake and take Snake out of stage to rack up dmg. but Snake have a lot on kirby when it comes to onstage. Granades, tilts, even the normal jabs that have excellents followups, the first hit of Ftilt outpriotizes kirby's Bair , our Uptilt is godsend here like in all matchup, we can edgeguard kirby but he can do the same to us, we have to look how are we edgeguarding since they can inhale to foostool and that's one stock less, also when we are in the air we have to look for Upair since it outpriotizes our Dair, if we arestill on the cypher we have to look for the deceptive Forward B and the awesome kirby's bair. but I think this matchup is 60-40 snake advantage.

Snake can't really combo anyways. Point moot.
IIRC you are not fast on ground, only in air.

What I meant by that post, is if Kirby can get it on Snake, he hurts us a lot more then if we got in on an Olimar. (You'd have to be a Snake main to fully understand this. lol) bad analogy.

Basically if you get in, you **** us for a while until we escape. If we get in on Olimar we **** him until he gets a smash or grab on us... which isn't overly hard...

The CG isn't altogether stopped by a grenade. It becomes more of a read DI kind of a thing. Kirby I think has best luck with the Dthrow personally. That sets Snake up for more things and is easier to read than the Fthrow to Uair. Dthrow > Utilt that Kirby has means we can get out by either exploding a grenade or jumping out. Sadly, kirby can read us when we attempt to pull out a grenade and thus just regrab us and finish with a fthrow. Or if he things we will jump out just Utilt, but that only works to about 40% I believe.

Dthrow tech chase here is a bit easier to do than on others because of Kirby's slower rolls and shorter distances that they move. Dthrow > Buffered Jab idea works against Kirby to a degeree.

Don't underestimate the infant.



This and this alone can give kirby an minor advantage if he sucks you up. Beware of Kirbicides at high percentages, esecailly if he knows all the nade tricks

Still, 6:4 Snake sounds correct.

Eternal Yoshi said:

Don't underestimate the infant.

This and this alone can give kirby an minor advantage if he sucks you up. Beware of Kirbicides at high percentages.

Still, 6:4 Snake sounds correct.

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I forgot about that. I played a Kirby once that also happened to be a Snake main, and knew how to use grenades. I swear, kirby with Nades could camp us harder than we can against them.

Kewkky said:

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but... That will never happen, Snakes' utilt beats Kirby's inhale.

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Plus, you can throw a grenade into Kirby's mouth, that's entertainingxD
Takes like half a second of lag for Snake to do whatever and 5% of damage.

6:4 snake, kirby doesn't have anything reliable to get in on snake other than run to shield, which hurts when it gets predicted, and baiting and punishing, which relies on human error. From my experience I think kirby's usually don't have a very easy time landing kill moves on snake, he can pile on a lot of damage sometimes in the air but without the smash attacks/hammer/stone, all of which are difficult to land on snake, you don't get the kill.

Aside from RC any stages that should be considered for banning? I'd think BF maybe, that's my personal least favorite vs characters that **** snake in the air...

well kirby can gimp snake fairly well and FSmash isnt that hard to pull off(out of dair is pretty effective). but i still dont see enough going for kirby to get this closer to even.

First off, kewkky knows his stuff, but I see you've recognized that.

Snake is one of my favorite matchups to play, simply because it's winnable but you have to change up your style quite a bit. I'd say 60:40 snake's favor.

SuSa said:

We can DI out of fthrow>uair. Or simply pull a 'nade.

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While this is generally true, you have to be careful with your nades: pulling them allows us a free regrab, and then we uthrow.

Susa]For the dthrow said:

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Yes.

Kirby 'nades are what can turn the tide of the match. I play one of my friend's snake's semi-regularly, so I know what we can do with them, and we're AWESOME with 'nades. We can camp you pretty hardcore with them. You use them to disrupt our combos; we can use them when we know you'll try to kill us. Let's say you (somehow have a fresh) ftilt: we predict it and 'nade. On the down side, we take more damage, but on the upside, we don't lose a stock and you take damage too (unless we end up just adding more knockback to your move, which would be bad. I don't think it works that way except for a strangely spaced utilt and badly DI'd utilt AND 'nade). Also, since it's OUR attack we're getting hit by, we know where and when to DI. It can also lead to some pretty epic mindgames where you try to c4 us but end up blowing up yourself instead and dying (he was never quite the same after that).

Overall, the matchup goes like this: If we get you in the air, we hurt you pretty bad. If you're on the ground, you hurt us pretty bad for longer than we hurt you in the air. We epic win with 'nades. Inhale is also useful for getting you out of your cypher. You guys already know you don't get your cypher back, but here's something else: we can jump offstage with you in our mouths. You can't bomb jump because you have too much horizontal momentum. If you have a c4 on the stage, we don't even have to jump off. Keep c4's offstage at low-middle %'s for sure and at semi-high ones. If we have high damage and we inhale you, expect us to take your power (though I believe you can hit us with the first hit of your dair after a copy). If you're at a % where we won't knock you back too far when edguarding, expect us to spit or even let you break of offstage. If it's both...we could do either one.

Some people may come in and try to tell you it's 50:50 or 55:45 Snake. Don't listen to them, they're wrong.

I didn't want to make a long post, but it looks like I'm about to anyway. -_-

Matchup summary: Kirby can gimp Snake, but a good Snake should never put himself in the position to be gimped. DI upward, recover high, C4 recover (I've played Ally a couple times, he's pretty good at not getting gimped...) and yeah.

The reason this matchup is SO HARD is because:
1. Snake racks up damage faster.
2. Snake kills earlier.
3. Snake kills more easily.
4. Snake's as heavy as a rhinocerous.
5. These reasons again and again.

This matchup is essentially Kirby with 3 stocks, Snake with 4, because he lives so long. THIS is why it's so difficult.

There you go, that's what I think about the matchup. I don't really know what else to say....both characters have good grabs. Snake's pivot grab is BLATANTLY broken, and his Dthrow followups are great on Kirby. Uptilt kills us earlier than our Fsmash kills you, and it's easier to land, and less punishable. Ftilt is broken as balls. Kirby's Dtilt is pretty good against Snake in ground vs ground. Fthrow->Uair is good at 0%, but a smart Snake will pull a grenade. A smarter Kirby will regrab instead of Uairing. Kirby with grenades is pretty darn good. Fsmashing with a grenade is fun as hell. Kirby's Bair is pretty good. So are all his other aerials.

Spam Grounded Hammer.

Ok I'm done.

60:40 Snack
or 62:38
because it's not easy. -.-

Still, Snake's kinda fun to fight against...until he gets a lead and then I'm screwed. >_<

Yes it is. I play against Ally on Shadow Moses all the time.

Snake Kirby is my absolute favorite Kirby, but they have to know how to use the nades well. A lot of this is stuff I've done before, because I love messing with Snake Kirby.

Whenever I play as Snake Kirby, I start playing a lot like I do when I'm Snake. I have a nade out at every opportunity. Kirby has great control of the nades with his aerial mobility, so he can jump and move in just the right spot to throw it. Don't forget he can do every trick we can do too. Shield dropped grenades, grenade stripping, grenade grabbing, everything really, with the added bonus of being able to use them in the air and off stage far better than we can. I've actually floated off-stage as Kirby and thrown nades until Snake gets blown away by one. Snake can throw one while trying to get back to the stage. Kirby can throw a bunch.

Kirby also has some fancy tricks he can do with nades that we can't. He can do a down B, with a nade in his hand and it'll explode without doing anything to Kirby. So if it's timed right, Snake gets hit with a down-b that explodes in his face. Also, if Snake grabs kirby out of this, he'll still get hit with an explosion, so port priority can be important for that. As long as Snake is 4th, he wont get hit away, but Kirby will.

I doubt you'll ever see this, but they can hit you with an up-b, and then a nade in their hand can explode at the end. And here's one I did by accident once when I was Snake Kirby. I had a nade in my hand, did an up-b and spiked with it. I was going to end up self-destructing with it cause I moved to far off the stage, but the nade exploded me out of it while Snake got spiked. This seems highly situational, but I'm throwing it out there.

He can throw us into nades with his throws too. Up-throw, if timed right, can slam Snake right into a nade. In fact, he can do this with any throw, depending on the placement of the grenade. B-throw when it's behind him, D-throw when it's right under him, and F-throw when it's in front. The downside for Kirby, is that he gets hit by the nade too, and he's far easier to kill than Snake is. The upside, is that it can put you in a perfect position for him. I once slammed him into a nade with up-throw, it exploded us both in the same direction, and I was in the perfect position to hit Snake with a b-air. Even if that doesn't happen, it still puts Snake in the air, where we don't want to be.

4TH PORT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE THROWS
Fight for the 4th slot. If Kirby has 4th and the nade explodes before the throw is finished, Kirby won't get any knockback, and Snake will still be flung into the air. If Snake has 4th, it's the other way around, and at lower percents, puts Kirby in the perfect spot to get hit. Usually with an up-tilt or n-air. Kirby is put right in front of Snake no matter which way Kirby throws from what I've noticed. However at higher percents, Kirby will be blown too far away to reach. Kirby can still throw Snake into nades, but it's less effective without a lower port. He pretty much HAS to time it so both of you are knocked back by the nade, since if it explodes too early, it won't help Kirby much. If it's timed so both of you are hit, it puts Snake in the air with Kirby (where Snake doesn't want to be) but otherwise Kirby just throws himself in the air and leaves Snake safely on the ground.

Snake should be fighting for 4th anyway, but this gives Kirby all the more reason to not let him have it.

It's probably worth mentioning that Kirby can jump-cancel throw grenades too. You know, that thing like a glide toss, only it's done by canceling a jump by throwing something instead of canceling a roll by throwing something. Kirby goes a decent distance and it's WAAAY better than his glide toss, which barely goes anywhere.


So there's my 2 cents on what Kirby can do if he takes your power. So don't let him do it.

Zajice is amazing..... I never thought of doing those things with nade power. Nice info. I pretty much agree with what people have been saying. :D

Thanks guys.

Yeah, I love Snake Kirby almost as much as Snake. (almost) The main reason I like Kirby is because he can do all sorts of stuff with a different characters powers, but Snake's power is just amazing. If Kirby couldn't copy, I wouldn't like him that much.

I'm one of the people that plays freakin' everybody in the roster (some better than others) so I have a decent idea on how everybody's powers work. I mess around in training to see what Kirby can do with them.

And that picture makes me lol SuSa. Mostly because it used the wrong "your".


Also, another thing about the throwing into nades. Fight for the 4th slot. If the nade explodes before the throw is finished, Kirby won't get any knockback if he has a lower port, and Snake will still be flung into the air. If Snake has 4th, it's the other way around, and at lower percents, puts Kirby in the perfect spot to get hit. Usually with an up-tilt or n-air. Kirby is put right in front of Snake no matter which way he throws from what I've noticed.

Snake should be fighting for 4th anyway, but this gives Kirby all the more reason to not let him have it.

EDIT: I updated my old post with that info, only with a bit more added onto it. Also pointed out that he can jump-cancel throw the nades. Forgot to mention that.

BTW, don't forget the omnigay. Upthrow with kirby or MK when one of you has a cooked pinapple. If you do it right, only one of you will die.

Budget Player Cadet_ said:

BTW, don't forget the omnigay. Upthrow with kirby or MK when one of you has a cooked pinapple. If you do it right, only one of you will die.

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Yea, but it's pretty situational. I mean, the chances that you're holding an already-dropped 'nade and that we can uthrow you are pretty hard to meet (if kirby has the grenade, pressing grab will just make him throw it). I've also noticed that you can toss the grenade up (with a smash throw) and time it to explode as you and snake are above the upper blastzone and kill snake.

Also, on the subject of 'nades, I managed to spotdodge WHILE HOLDING a 'nade and not drop it once or twice in training mode (as kirby, but I bet snake can do it if kirby can). Not sure if that's any help to you guys, I'm just mentioning that it happened.

And Zajice, that's an awesome post O_o. I haven't thought to do half the things you mentioned. More 'nade tricks! :D

...what Zaj said.

A1lion835 said:

Yea, but it's pretty situational. I mean, the chances that you're holding an already-dropped 'nade and that we can uthrow you are pretty hard to meet (if kirby has the grenade, pressing grab will just make him throw it). I've also noticed that you can toss the grenade up (with a smash throw) and time it to explode as you and snake are above the upper blastzone and kill snake.

Also, on the subject of 'nades, I managed to spotdodge WHILE HOLDING a 'nade and not drop it once or twice in training mode (as kirby, but I bet snake can do it if kirby can). Not sure if that's any help to you guys, I'm just mentioning that it happened.

And Zajice, that's an awesome post O_o. I haven't thought to do half the things you mentioned. More 'nade tricks! :D

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lol. Doesn't it backfire when snake has port priority and you die? I think I've let my friend do it to me before and this has happened because I usually take slot 4 when we play.

Kirby vs. Snake

Snake has some big advantages in this match-up, each of which I will go over in a bit of detail below.

Grenades
As everyone is fully aware, Kirby has a terrible projectile game. He is virtually helpless at long range since he has to rely on his terrible excuse for a projectile: Final Cutter. It's too difficult to camp with the Final Cutter indefinitely since grenades have more range and the Final Cutter is likely to make them explode close enough to Kirby to deal him damage. Also, grenades do more damage than the final cutter's shot.

Grenades also defeat a lot of Kirby's tactics including his combos and his approaches; Snake is fast enough to pull a grenade out between the F-throw and U-air combo. If Kirby strikes with an aerial attack and Snake pulls a grenade, it's likely that Kirby will hit Snake's Shield and the grenade will explode dealing damage only to Kirby. Additionally, Snake can grab out of shield even if Kirby forgoes his attack and drops in front of Snake instead.

In order for Kirby to circumnavigate the Grenade problem, he has to air camp. Since Kirby's B-air is his fastest aerial, he has to weave between grenades and strike Snake's head when Snake cannot put up a shield. It's pretty ridiculous, but this is the only thing Kirby can really do against Grenades except... if Kirby Copies Snake he can Grenade camp as well. Kirby's actually pretty good at grenade camping, and his floatiness gives him more options with Grenades than Snake might have. Kirby can also perform all the usual grenade tricks that Snake can (cooking, stripping, reversals, etc).

Distancing & Approaching
Snake's range of attack is considerable and his hitboxes are easy to hit. Snake has an easy time with priority and only has to watch out for hitting Kirby's shield or for his dodges. Since all of Kirby's offensive approaches can be overpowered by Snake's tilts, Kirby will usually adopt a cautious approach, either witha Shield or with a Dodge, neither of which should be too difficult to deal with. One thing to watch for is being predictable with your response to Kirby's approach. For instance, if you always respond with a F-tilt, Kirby can approach with a sliding Shield. If Snake always pulls a grenade and then Shields, Kirby can approach with a Grab.

In addition to the close-range distancing advantage, Snake also has plenty of longer range options. Snake's mortar, for instance, can make Kirby's grabs less effective. After a U-smash, even if Kirby gets a Grab on Snake, he cannot follow-up with his standard throw combo (F-throw -> U-air) because the mortar will drop back down and break the throw. Be mindful that Kirby can react with a U-throw which protects him completely from the Mortar, but cannot effectively lead into a combo.

Nikita (F-special) and Claymores (D-smash) are not especially useful, while C4 (D-special) is always advantageous in this fight. The Nikita usually has too much prep time and lag to be useful and is easy to defend against. Most of the time, Snake will leave himself too open when using Nikita, though the possibility of using it while Kirby is at a far distance or off-stage is there.

Claymores are easy for Kirby to abuse because they limit the amount of usable ground-space for Snake to control. Since Kirby is comfortable in the air he can use the Claymore to put additional pressure on Snake. Even if Snake distances himself safely from the Claymore, Kirby has plenty of options to avoid or destroy the Claymore. C4 is a much more effective explosive that Snake can use. It is quick to set, can be placed anywhere on the stage, and KOs Kirby around 90%.

Weight & KO Power
It's well-known that Snake is a powerhouse and that he is one of the heaviest characters in the game. Comparatively, one would think Kirby wouldn't be able to compete with Snake in this department. While it's true that Kirby is light, he is fully capable of KOing Snake at reasonable percents despite Snake's Weight. Kirby's F-smash reliably KO's Snake around 110% on average, and Kirby's Hammer is even more powerful. Kirby also has other attacks powerful enough to KO Snake after the 100% mark including U-smash, D-smash, Stone, and possibly a fresh B-air.

What shifts the balance in Snake's favor isn't the power of attacks, but the opportunity of use. Practically every attack of Snake's can KO Kirby from 90% to 130% and these attacks come out quickly, have large range, and come out quickly. Kirby's Smashes are much harder to land and carry much more risk. Kirby's Stone and Hammer are even more difficult to hit with and are much more easily punished than his Smashes.

What Kirby does have in his favor is off-stage fighting. Snake is in danger of being KO'd whenever he's knocked off-stage. When recoverying with the Cypher, Kirby has a big window of opportunity to Kirbycide (N-special), Giant Swing (Aerial F-special), Cypher-Grab, Stone (D-special), etc. The second hit of the Giant Swing is especially devastating and can KO at surprisingly low percents.

The best option Snake has is to keep his distance from Kirby and to recover from overhead. Kirby's speed is often too slow to get to Snake before Snake can lift off with the Cypher, far out of Kirby's reach. However, Snake must then deal with getting back down to the stage with Kirby attacking from underneath. Keep in mind that Kirby's U-air beats out Snake's D-air and B-air, but an Air Dodge might be predicted by Kirby and punished.

Snake is very ineffective at edge guarding Kirby. Anything he throws at Kirby is fairly easy to avoid, and if Snake comes off-stage he puts himself into a very dangerous situation if he misses. Most of the time it's easy for Kirby to make it back to the ledge where Snake then tries to edge guard with his feet planted on firm ground.

While Kirby's on the ledge, watch out for ledge-hopped aerials, ledge-canceled Final Cutter (U-special), and ledge-hopped Inhale. If Snake stands away from the ledge at this time he can safely toss grenades, or maybe a Nikita, without much risk but it gives Kirby the opportunity to get back up from the ledge. For the most part, Snake will be relying on out-right KOs instead of edge guarding.

Summary
Snake has a huge advantage on-stage, both toe-to-toe and at long range. His fast attacks, his disjointed hitboxes, and his massive KO power outclass anything Kirby has at his disposal. However, Kirby has options to get some hits in which can combo or can be strong enough to KO Snake. Grenades can effectively shut down much of Kirby's offense and can be used to force Kirby to approach.

Off-stage, Kirby has a number of attacks to abuse against Snake's recovery. Some of which can KO Snake at surprising percents. Snake on the other hand has little he can do for edge guarding and has to rely on solid KO's.

Overall, 40-60 Snake's Favor.

Very good summary, T!mmy. Thanks for the input.

One question though, by claymore do you mean Snake's landmine?

Most of what you said seems good, but are you sure fsmash kills snake at 110%? I really doubt that

Kirby's fsmash is ridiculously strong and it comes out fast. I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's around when it killed snake.

Ken Neth said:

Kirby's fsmash is ridiculously strong and it comes out fast. I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's around when it killed snake.

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I 2nd kirby and play him alot, I know how strong it is. But if its not charged I really doubt it can kill snake that low with proper DI.

-NaPPy said:

Most of what you said seems good, but are you sure fsmash kills snake at 110%? I really doubt that

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Nah, it's realistic. Next to his mallet, a fresh fsmash is Snake's worst nightmare in this matchup.

At risk of sounding redundant, I'll keep this brief:

- Kirby's fthrow into uair is a sure thing at zero percent so pull out a nade during the combo to break it. If you know the Kirby is going to fsmash after uair, you can usually jump out of the way.


- Grenades > Final Cutter but grenades = grenades . Because of this, you cannot allow yourself to be inhaled. The matchup will get that much more even (and that much more tedious).

- Kirby approaches with bair and it's a fairly good pressure move if he keeps relentlessly going after you with it.

- You can jab Kirbs out of dthrow. Jab-grab-dthrow-jab-grab-dthrow etc is doable in this match. Just gotta handle the mindgames accordingly.

- Kirby is really good at air camping.

- Oh, and most of our moves at high percent (100% give or take) can kill a Kirby.

I thought I read somewhere that the land mines were "Claymores". But, yes, I meant land mines (D-smash) when I said Claymores.

And don't underestimate Kirby's F-smash. I thought Snake was hard to kill, but apparently the F-smash is too good. Keep in mind the 110% is an average of when I KO Snakes with it. I've KO'd under that percent in instances when Snake's DI was bad or when they were on the far side of the stage. And, on the other hand, it would be incredibly hard to KO Snake with it by sending him the wrong way on Final Destination (my instinct says he wouldn't die from F-smash until the 150% mark in that instance, and that would be a vertical KO not a horizontal one). And, of course I'm talking about a fresh F-smash, not a stale one.

Edit:
Updated my Match-up post, above, by fixing typos and with some other minor additions.