Kirby Matchup Discussion

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

And don't underestimate Kirby's F-smash. I thought Snake was hard to kill, but apparently the F-smash is too good. Keep in mind the 110% is an average of when I KO Snakes with it. I've KO'd under that percent in instances when Snake's DI was bad or when they were on the far side of the stage. And, on the other hand, it would be incredibly hard to KO Snake with it by sending him the wrong way on Final Destination (my instinct says he wouldn't die from F-smash until the 150% mark in that instance, and that would be a vertical KO not a horizontal one). And, of course I'm talking about a fresh F-smash, not a stale one.

What about stages to CP and ban in this match up. It seems to me that Snake has equal chances to kill horizontally and vertically. But most of the time it will veritical. Kirby's main killers always seem to be horizontal KOs not vertical. So I would say pretty much any stage with low ceiling, but wide blast zones would be the preferred stages to take Kirby to. Halberd seems to come to mind as a CP.

 

[Kewkky]

Yeah, my snake-using friend always takes me to Halberd, he can kill Kirby relatively easy there... Considering the ceiling is way too close.

Try and ban JJ and RC. JJ because the ceiling is very high and we can push you into the water where you'll get pulled to your doom according to where we push you, and RC because, well... Kirby is great here, and even though Snake does OK, he's at a disadvantage against a Kirby who can maneuver well in the air... Which is every single Kirby main.

 

[Kewkky]

- You can jab Kirbs out of dthrow. Jab-grab-dthrow-jab-grab-dthrow etc is doable in this match. Just gotta handle the mindgames accordingly.

Ummm... Nope. Just like with every character, it can be escaped with an easy roll away from you. Once you dsmash, we just either mash any button to get up (and maybe attack, depends on the kirby), or we can just tilt the cstick to a direction and roll before your jab does anything.


EDIT: Whoops forgot I had posted something right before this.... My bad for the double post. : /

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Ummm... Nope. Just like with every character, it can be escaped with an easy roll away from you. Once you dsmash, we just either mash any button to get up (and maybe attack, depends on the kirby), or we can just tilt the cstick to a direction and roll before your jab does anything.


EDIT: Whoops forgot I had posted something right before this.... My bad for the double post. : /

That's the whole point. Mindgamez son. xD

If snake does a buffered jab directly after Dthrow ends. Kirby would be hit if they tried to stay still which leads to jab > ftilt, jab > regrab or AAA. So the jab forces you into making some kind of other decision such as roll or get-up attack. And since the jab ends fast enough, we can react to the roll kirby makes. Get-up attack I am positive we can shield by the time the jab ends.

And with kirby's rolls out of the dthrow are relatively slow compared to others and the distance kirby goes is minimal also compared to others he is easy to regrab on the rolls. The only thing you have on us is the get-up attack because it's more difficult to tech-chase get-up attacks as you pretty much have to Dthrow > buffer jab > see the get-up attack and powershield just as the jab ends.

So with all of this, kirby is one of the easier characters Snake can techchase because we can force you into stuff we would be ready to react to and simply have to react to what is being done after the jab. But it's difficult as you have to react pretty quickly and that doing that consitantly for a few grabs in a row is difficult. At the very least, it makes each dthrow about 20%-30% on the average gamer I would think. And more with pros if they practiced enough.

Also, simply standing up does miss the jab as well, but snake can just regrab at that point.

 

[Tero.]

My input on the Kirby/Snake Match-up:


Air Game:

Kirby definitly has the upper hand here. Snake is heavy and his aerials are slow and so is his airdodge, due to this he is an easy victim of juggling. Kirby on the other hand has good aerial mobility and good/fast aerials in genral, his best beeing his bair though. Kirby is good at juggling so Snake has to mix up with nades (wavebounce), fast falled air dodges, C4, aerials and stuff.
This altogether gives Kirby the advantage in the air, but then again most Snakes are used to this since that's the case in almost every MU so it shouldn't be that much of a problem anyway.


Ground Game:

Definitly in Snakes advantage. He has more range, more priority and disjointed hitboxes while Kirby lacks good approach options on Snake because his tilts simply destroy almost any sort of aerial approach. Kirbys grabs are good and so is his grab range but Snake can get out of the Fthrow Uair combo by DI'ing up pulling a Grenade, so most Kirbys will go for Dthrow (which does 11%) Utilt and continue juggling.
So by any means avoid getting grabbed at low percentages because this will rack up damage pretty fast. To avoid getting grabbed you can use your Nades if you've got the higher controller port, but we all know this anway.
Snakes general advantage on the ground comes from the fact that Kirby doesn't have any safe approaches on Snake and Snake doesn't need to approach because he can outcamp Kirby easily since Kirby's Up-B isn't really a good projectile.
However this changes if Kirby gets to inhale you and copy your abilities. He has some neat tricks with the nades and due to his better mobility camping him can be pretty **** hard. So avoid getting sucked.
If you'll get him with a grab you can rack up damage fast with tech chasing. So mix up your camping game with some shield approaches from time to time. You can get some easy grabs if Kirby tries to camp back with Up-B, run in, powershield the UpB and then grab him.


Offstage:

Snake has some good edgeguarding options with Mortar, Nades, C4 and Bair against Kirby and he can edgeguard him more effectively than many other characters in the cast but Kirby himself can edgeguard Snake pretty **** good either because of his multiple jumps, bair and inhale so be aware of Kirbys jumping offstage and edgeguarding aggressively.

_____________________________________​

Overall I think the ground advantage is big enough to make up for the Air/Offstage disadvantage, so I think this Match-up is in Snakes favor.

 

[RATED]

Yeah, my snake-using friend always takes me to Halberd, he can kill Kirby relatively easy there... Considering the ceiling is way too close.

Try and ban JJ and RC. JJ because the ceiling is very high and we can push you into the water where you'll get pulled to your doom according to where we push you, and RC because, well... Kirby is great here, and even though Snake does OK, he's at a disadvantage against a Kirby who can maneuver well in the air... Which is every single Kirby main.

Halberd IMO I find it the best against kirby in CP but neutral I think is final destination , this matchup is kinda like against mk KINDA! but halberd works wonder since C4 works awesome there ,mines , granades just are too good there and Snake kills fast with the broken Utilt.

PS: I am the Snake that Kewkky is talking about.

 

[fromundaman]

Well, seems like most of what can be said has been. Just one note I want to mention: Every time you guys try to break out of combos with grenades, keep in mind that it leaves you open for air hammers, which DO NOT detonate grenades for some reason.

So yeah, if you try to grenade out of Fthrow combos, you run the risk of more than just a simple regrab/Uthrow.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, seems like most of what can be said has been. Just one note I want to mention: Every time you guys try to break out of combos with grenades, keep in mind that it leaves you open for air hammers, which DO NOT detonate grenades for some reason.

So yeah, if you try to grenade out of Fthrow combos, you run the risk of more than just a simple regrab/Uthrow.

That is interesting to know about the hammer o.o But I doubt the hammer will be much of a problem compared to if we got regrabbed, it's pretty much the same thing except that about ~8% extra damage we would have obtained. The only time we would really be doing the whole grenade thing would be to get out of a combo early. After 30%-40% we can jump of out anything kirby tries to do.

 

[fromundaman]

That is interesting to know about the hammer o.o But I doubt the hammer will be much of a problem compared to if we got regrabbed, it's pretty much the same thing except that about ~8% extra damage we would have obtained. The only time we would really be doing the whole grenade thing would be to get out of a combo early. After 30%-40% we can jump of out anything kirby tries to do.

But if you jump, we can follow with a rising Fair.
And that is where the mindgames come into play. We both have ways to get past what the other can do in this scenario, but only if we predict what the other will do.

Also, the air hammer puts you back up in the air, so yeah, while it's not the worst thing that could happen, it does more damage and puts you in the same position.

(PS: This is also a good place for Kirby to get an inhale in.)

 

[A1lion835]

Kirby should ban halberd and stage strike fd (I would stage strike bf, but that's because I have irrational hatred for that stage). As for what he should cp...brinstar is a bad idea...JJ is good, but you'll probably ban that...I'd go with trusty ol' PS1.

As for what snake should cp, maybe fd (duh), or maybe...brinstar? Iunno, dthrow infinite on the bottom. Lylat is a possibility; we're pretty good on that stage (plus we can uthrow on the edges at certain times, have the edges rise up, and then land with our uthrow under the stage, stagespiking you), but it helps camoflauge your weapons and stuff.

 

[fromundaman]

Snake ***** us hard on Brinstar. TBH, that's my ban against Snake, and his should probably be RC, in which case we bring him to JJ, PS1, or Pictochat.

Not sure where else he'd CP us though. Somewhere with close blastzones probably.

 

[theONEjanitor]

60/40 snake

kirby can **** us in the air pretty hard. **** all those jump...but even if he takes a bunch of damage from us...we still have to be pretty high damage for him to KO us

but other than that, iono what kirby really has going for him in this matchup besides possible chain grabs..but its like hey big whoop i took 30 damage from kirby...what is he going to do, hit me with his slow *** forward smash

 

[Kewkky]

but other than that, iono what kirby really has going for him in this matchup besides possible chain grabs..but its like hey big whoop i took 30 damage from kirby...what is he going to do, hit me with his slow *** forward smash

Yep, because the best way to use fsmash is when we're both right next to each other and both not doing anything, then telling you in advance that we're gonna do an fsmash, to not try and block.

Come on, man, we try to make it as unpredicatble as possible. You can't tell me that you can see the fsmash's starting animation and react in time, it's too fast for that.

 

[Panix]

Yep, because the best way to use fsmash is when we're both right next to each other and both not doing anything, then telling you in advance that we're gonna do an fsmash, to not try and block.

Come on, man, we try to make it as unpredicatble as possible. You can't tell me that you can see the fsmash's starting animation and react in time, it's too fast for that.

TBH, I see kirbys f smash comming before it even is used, most kirbys do the "Dair+Fsmash" combo which isn't hard to avoid. the CG could be ended with a gernade. even if they regrab you only get 30 dmg, and you at low enough percent to break out of any omnigay shenanigans.

Only thing I hate about kirby is his bair and hammy that sends you at an akward angle below the stage if hit with the second swing.

60:40 snake IMO.

 

[fromundaman]

Also Kewkky, the sound Kirby makes when he Fsmashes is kind of a big tip-off, and can allow you to PS it.

That being said, Fsmash is usually something we mindgame with or use when you're in something else's lag.



That being said, maybe I'm completely wrong.

 

[TheLastCacely]

most of the kirbies i fight end up getting my power and camping with grenades. i remeb er when i fought chu dat, he camped me off the edge and his grenade game was superb, how am i supposed to approach that?

 

[theONEjanitor]

the only time I get f-smashed by kirby is if the kirby predicts my airdodge or spotdodge or if I whiff an attack. meaning either I screwed up or the player out smarted me, meaning not a character advantage, but a player advantage
otherwise, i dont think snake or anyone will ever get hit by it. most good kirby's rarely use it anyway. its really friggin strong though.
and I have terrible DI, so it kills me at like 95% and **** :-(

i play a good kirby pretty frequently, so I'm learning the matchup more and more.

its been mentioned but yes kirby with nades is a pain in the ***, but not unmanageable.

kirbys two main strengths in this matchup are A. obviously his air game and B. he can duck under your grab, ftilt, and jab (3 of snakes best moves)...fortunately uptilt still hits :-P

i dont know how other kirbys play but the one I play like to throw out d-tilts because they are safe on snakes spotdodge, and safe on imperfect shields...except if you uptilt quick enough

also kirby's bair beats our nair, which I find to be weird. It also beats our jabs. again, uptilt to the rescue.

still think its 60/40

 

[hyper92]

i think its in kirby's favor. against an experienced kirby, its speed and air game is very good against snake. mostly i think its the air game. because snake is very vulnerable when he is recovering with cypher and this can lead to an easy kill for kirby with his bair etc. so all kirby needs to do is knock snake off the platform and score a kill which isnt hard for kirby considering the amount of power kirby has for his size.

also i agree with keith 4'rd, kirby can use snake's power against him.

 

[A1lion835]

Yea, your uptilt beats every single one of our aerials and probably attacks with that huge*** disjoint. And what good kirbies are you playing...? Unless you only use snake (which isn't that hard to believe, actually), fsmash is our primary killer. Only times we won't use it are times we can gay edguard opponents...like you. You guys no doubt know that cypher grabbing blah blah blah, and fromundaman's probably already mentioned this, but inhaling you out of a cypher is equivalent to grabbing you. Kirby can do so much with 'nades it's not funny, I think it might actually be 58:42 with the power of 'nades on our side. If we inhale you, we use 'nades maybe even better than you. Unless you space your moves so that the VERY tip of the hitbox hits us, and not the grenade, we can pull one out at high %'s to lessen the knockback (usually) and add extra damage to you. It's also POSSIBLE to time a uthrow grenade throw to omnigay you, but it's really hard to time and almost impossible to set up for...we can use them for stage control pretty effectively too, as our speed isn't THAT bad.

Sorry for my large amount of random info, most of which is about kirby eating you.

 

[.AC.]

i have found out that snake dashiing while holding a grenade works extremely well in this matchup,just try to mix it up a little,as its is easily punishable if predicted,i think the matchup is in snake´s favor by a considerable amount.I personally think it works great to camp and wait for his aproach,mix it up with pivot grabs,snake dashing with a grenade in hand and grabing while holding a grenade.

 

[Bizmal]

Kirby's D throw, U tilt, B'air, U'air, and D'air can rack up damage pretty quickly and if the Kirby can fight aggressively enough its hard to camp his down tilt can trip you and Snakes rolls are not that great you can get up but that might lead to another 2-3 D'tilts.

Snake Has ground dominance.

 

[Shady Penguin]

I pretty much agree with everything that Timmy said.

Snake is generally locking Kirby down or getting his butt kicked during the match-up.

Despite both being able to strongly over-power each other in important areas (range for Snake and aerial prowess for Kirby), the burden of getting into a favorable position is on Kirby.

60-40 Snake for me.

 

[SouTh]

Kirby really isnt too hard to predict and can easily dodge and counter for snake if too close. and its also easy keep kirby at a comfortable distance. Id say it def favors snake.

 

[Terra~]

So how does that 60-40 sound to everyone? SuSa? Your approval?

 

[SuSa]

I agree with 60:40, although me and my friend Bam laugh whenever he goes Kirby (his secondary) vs my Snake. We laugh at how sometimes it seems 90:10 Snake, and sometimes it seems 40:60 Kirby. XD lol It's great.

But realisticly, 60:40 sounds good.

 

[theONEjanitor]

lol i know exactly what you mean
my roomate is a really good kirby

and sometimes I **** him all night
but then other nights I can't even seem to touch him.


in all honesty, if I have to fight another snake in tournament, I go kirby now and just hope they don't know the match up. cuz i've lost my faith in my skill at the ditto now that snakes don't spam f-tilt anymore :-/

kirby can wreck a snake if the snake isn't careful. but once you figure out the match up it's not too hard.