Yoshi guide and discussion board

Yoshi: An Analysis

After a long time of thinking about it....I have decided to make this Yoshi guide...Nothing too fancy, just going over strategies, the different moves, and of course, the combos. This guide is based on the recent Link guide made/other guides before

PS: Sorry for the plainness. I was lazy.

I: An Overview
II: Style of Play
III: Moveset Analysis
IV: Edge Tactics
V: Specific Techniques
VI: The End

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I: An Overview
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Little bit of a warning, if you do not understand what DJC, DJCC, Parrying, and a few other techniques mean, look at Specific techniques First.


Yoshi is one of the characters of SSB64 to have a very big learning curve. At high level, Yoshi is known for being able to double jump to combo and to get out of combos. Yoshi has multiple difficult matchups with some of the better characters and overall, it takes a high hand speed and precise use of Double Jump Cancels to beat people at higher levels. Overall, Yoshi is known as the king of getting out of combos

In summary:

+ Great Aerials
+ At high levels, Parries and DJCC/DJC's allow Yoshi to survive to percentages that most characters can't
+ Good juggle ability
+ An up tilt that has fixed knockback that allows kills at high percents and allows huge combos at low percents
+Great projectile
+Spikes and drills for edgeguards
+Big hitbox's even though they aren't disjointed

+/-: Recovery, some characters have an easy time dealing with Yoshi's recovery such as kirby, while others like Samus have difficulties
+/-: An intense learning curve

-DJC'ing makes Yoshi unable to recover if yoshi is knocked far off the ledge
- Bad out of shield attacks (OOS) due to one of the worst grabs in the game and slightly slow attacks
- DI allows people to escape otherwise infinite down air combos
-No Disjointed hitbox's
-One of the worst rolls
-A slight problem with projectiles due to rolls
- Terrible matchups vs the 3 best characters in the game make competitive gaming with just yoshi almost impossible.
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II: Style of Play
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Yoshi is one of the characters that has to rely on different approaches vs different characters.
For example, if you get overly offensive vs a kirby, expect a 0 to death due to Kirby's up tilt. In this matchup, Yoshi needs to play overly defensive in these types of matchups.
On the other hand, Yoshi needs to be able to approach projectile characters such as Fox and Link well. Or, this is the case with Jigglypuff, where DJC spam works well. Yoshi needs to be more offensive in this type of matchup.

Overall, there are 3 main styles of play

1. Defensive.
This means Yoshi's that rely on using parries and bating. Theses types of yoshi's know how to get out of combos and are overall campy. They DJC only when they know that they cant' be punished. Up tilt, f-tilt and short hop aerials and used often as combo starters, as well as eggs for approaches.

2. Offensive
This refers to Yoshi's that use DJC's very often. DJC's are used for approach and for combo starters. They tend to think that offense is better than defense. These yoshi's tend to use DJC n-airs and back airs as most combo approaches.

3. Combination
Most Yoshi's combine these 2 because certain matchups require a Yoshi to be either offensive or defensive. My yoshi is personally more Defensive than offensive.

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III: Moveset analysis
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I assume everyone knows what the moves look like.

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Neutral-B Egg lay
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This is overall probably the worst move in Yoshi's arsenal. There aren't that many uses for it since people can mash buttons to escape and they can change their trajectory outside the egg. It is overall more useful however vs. other Yoshi's and Ness's due to when they mash, they can accidentally DJC out of the egg.
2/10

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Up-B Egg Toss
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Yoshi's egg has some of the highest priority of any projectile in the game. It is a very useful move for edgeguarding and for camping vs. characters like Jigglypuff, Kirby, Samus, and Pikachu. Just don't use it near an opponent due to the ending lag of the move. You can also cancel the lag at the end by hitting a ledge. This is called an LCE or Ledge Cancelled Egg. (See Advanced techniques)
6/10

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Down-B Yoshi Bomb
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A moderately useful move. Has a good amount of power. Usually seen for one of 2 purposes:
1. Comboing after DJC up airs or F-tilt
2. You can stop some combos by DJC'ing into a down b.
5/10

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Neut-A
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A double kick. More of a push back move. Isn't quick enough to be a good OOS move but has uses. Pretty useful vs. shields and spacing. Pretty good damage for a tap a as well.
3/10 for first hit. 3.5/10 for second hit
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F-Tilt
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Useful move but has way too much lag at the end of the move to make it super spammy. One of the overall better f-tilts. Leads to F-airs, Down air, Down B, and Egg's. A really useful combo move with great hitstun and a good amount of damage. Mostly used by the edge for quick F-air combo gimps. At lower percentages, it can also be used as a chain vs. certain characters (like Samus)
6/10
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U-Tilt
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This move has set knockback so it has no use if the opponent is crouch cancelling. If the opponent is not, this is by far the best tilt of Yoshi. One of the best moves in Yoshi's arsenal. Incredibly useful for combo starters at any percentage. More useful vs. Fast fallers and heavy characters than Kirby or Jigglypuff. Reliable kill if not predictable use.

Specific Up tilt combos:
For fast fallers or heavies (Falcon, Fox, DK): Up tilt to up smash. Up tilt to DJC B-air, Up tilt to DJC N-air. Up tilt to DJC up air, up tilt to DJC down air
For light characters (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Kirby): up tilt to full jump up air (only if opponent is grounded before the up tilt hits), up tilt to F-air (sometimes). Up tilt to Egg (sometimes).
For floaties (Samus and Luigi): Up tilt to: normal jump down air and normal jump Back air.
For normal weights (Yoshi and Mario): Up til to DJC Back air, Up smash, up air, DJC back air, DJC down air.

4/10 for vsing kirby.
6/10 for vsing Jigglypuff and Pikachu
8/10 for Mario, Samus, Ness, Yoshi, and Luigi
10/10 for Falcon, Fox, Link and DK.

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D-Tilt
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An interesting move with set knock back. More of an edgeguarding tool (especially vs Falcon, Samus, Link, and Fox) but overall not an overly useful move. Moderate spacing tool
5/10

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Dash Attack
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Like most of Yoshi's moves, this move has way too much ending lag. Good knock back though.
4/10

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F-Smash
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A nice pivoting smash. Really good edgeguarding move, Overshadowed by the up smash but still quite good. Solid knockback.
7/10

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U-Smash
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The end of most up tilt combos, a quite useful move. GREAT knockback and good at edgeguards as well. Less useful vs characters that Yoshi can’t just up tilt to combo into such as Kirby and Jigglypuff. Vs characters likes these, it is also possible to combo a n-air and especially a DJC down air into an up smash. Widely used out of parries. Main killing move vs multiple characters.
8/10

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D-Smash
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Not that bad but difficult to combo into. Like most down smashes, it is useful vs. people who like to Roll a lot. Great horizontal knockback and great range for a smash move. Overshadowed by the other smashes.
6/10
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N-Air
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Without DJC's, this would be a quick aerial move with low lag but without the ability to combo and apply shield pressure. With DJC's, this move is even quicker, can shield break, and is overall one of the better n-airs in the game. It is possible to combo multiple DJC N-airs into an F-air for a kill. This move is also Yoshi’s best move for shield breaks. Very useful vs. floaty characters. Sex kick also

4/10 without DJC’s
9.5/10 with DJC’s

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F-Air
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One of Yoshi’s Spikes. Good for edgeguarding. It is too slow to be used for shield breaking with DJC’s but is overall quite good with very high priority. Leads into Up smash’s, Down B, and occasionally down air’s, back airs, and n-airs.

Quite useful as well to start combos into F-airs (grounded) and another F-air

5/10 without DJC’s
7/10 with DJC’s.

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U-Air
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For fox’s, Falcon’s, DK’s and other Yoshi’s, this move is dreaded. Up tilt leads directly into up airs into more up tilts vs. these characters. Think of Falcon’s up air abuse but less range and less approach. Up tilt to full jump up air is one of the few reliable kills vs. Jigglypuff. It isn’t that strong as a combo starter except for on platforms or vs.ing characters that are tall enough for the up tilt to hit on the ground. Possible to combo into a D-air, Down-B, and even more up airs. This move doesn’t have the range to be abused however.

3/10 without DJC’s
6/10 with DJC’s for vs. other characters
8.5/10 with DJC’s vs. DK, Falcon, Fox, and Yoshi
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B-Air
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There are two main hitboxes of this move. The first is near Yoshi’s head or the back part that can be used for combos (has less damage). The second part is the usual hitting part or the back of the feet. Great amount of damage and good combos. Think of Yoshi’s N-air, but slower and much more range. Up tilt to DJC back air is a good kill vs. Medium weight characters. Good shield approach as well. It is also possible to combine a back air into a turn around DJC-F-air for a suicide kill. Wall of pain and a useful edgeguarding move vs. Luigi, Mario, Falcon, Fox, and Pikachu.
5/10 without DJC’s
8/10 with DJC’s

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D-Air
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If there was 0 DI in smash 64, this move would be broken vs. almost every character. However, there is and people can escape the infinites. Up tilt to down air is seen by non DJC’ing Yoshi’s very often. If all of the hits hit, as in on a platform, it is an instant shield breaker. Insane amount of damage as well. Usually seen after DJC up airs. Pretty good edgeguarding tool and still useful outside of being a drill. Also possible to combo a DJC down air at higher percents into an up smash for a more flashy kill.
3/10 for not DJC’ing
5/10 for DJC’s
7/10 on platforms
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Grab and Throws
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One of the reasons why Yoshi has problems with some of the best characters is due to Yoshi’s horrible grab. It has:
1. Horrible range
2. Zero combo ability outside of walls
3. Heavy ending lag
4. You can’t shield grab with it
5. Zero uses outside of edgeguarding sometimes and after Parries.

1/10

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IV: Edge Tactics
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This covers recovery and edgeguarding, two pivotal elements in this game.

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Recovery
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Yoshi has an interesting recovery. Yoshi’s recovery is also what makes him a good character as his odd recovery allows DJC’s and DJCC’s. For vs.ing certain characters, Yoshi’s recovery is bad, as in Kirby due to Down airs and many other characters due to back airs (or in Fox’s case, Up airs). For other characters like Jigglypuff and Samus, Yoshi’s recovery is pretty good. Just make sure that if you are going to recover above the ledge that the opponent doesn’t’ hit you at any point other than Yoshi’s head. The main thing to say is that even though there is no 3rd jump, Yoshi still has a bunch of ways to recover. You can either:
1. Sweetspot using the jump
2. Jump into the opponent and use F-air to spike or use Yoshi’s head to DJCC the hit (DON’T DO THIS VS KIRBY OR FOX)
3. Down B to Sweetspot (be careful, as some characters have enough priority to knock Yoshi out of the down b, also if you do it high enough, a person can grab the ledge at the right moment and edgeguard)
4. Egg (situational) to Down B or jump sweetspot. At certain times, it is possible to throw an egg and then land on the ledge. The egg due to the high priority prevents most characters from edgeguarding.

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Edgeguarding
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Yoshi’s main tools of edgeguarding are:
Down b sweetspot (for vs.ing other Yoshi’s and Falcon when he comes from below)
Eggs: for vsing Falcon, Fox, and virtually every other character outside of Pikachu.
Grabbing the ledge (as in vs. Pikachu) and then punishing as in with up tilt, grounded f-air, down b.
F-airs/back airs/occasionally down airs off stage (be careful for gimps)
Down tilts
F-tilt to F-air

Yoshi is overall good at edgeguarding but in most circumstances, edgeguards aren’t as necessary as Yoshi’s DJC combos hit people far enough away that you usually don’t need to edgeguard. Edgeguards are usually reserved for Gimps.

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V: Specific Techniques
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DJC: Double Jump Cancel, as in using a double jump into an aerial to cancel lag and allow Yoshi to attack quicker. Only possible with Yoshi and Ness in Smash 64, Yoshi, Ness, Pikachu, Peach and Mewtwo in Melee, and no one in Brawl. This is overall what separates the good Yoshi’s from the really good Yoshi’s, the use of DJC’s. Yoshi has overall slower DJC’s however than Ness in smash 64.

DJCC: Double Jump Cancel Counter, a Yoshi-specific technique, as in using a double jump to prevent all knockback. If someone hits around Yoshi’s head while Yoshi is using his second jump, there is 0 knockback. This allows Yoshi to get out of combos much more frequently than all other characters. It is possible to attack out of the Double Jump Cancel, which is where the word Counter is from.

ECB/YBC: Edge Cancelled Bomb or Yoshi Bomb Cancel: Using Yoshi’s down b to grab the ledge to cancel all lag (either multiple times or repeatedly), stalling tactic (slight, punishable) and edgeguarding technique.

ECE: Edge-cancelled egg: Using the ledge to prevent all lag from throwing an egg. Useful edgeguarding technique

EBR (…LOL): Egg Bomb Reversal, Using a double jump to reverse around Yoshi’s body and then down b to edgeguard. Very similar to the hugging technique in Brawl but more difficult to do

Shield Parry: Using Yoshi’s shield to prevent all knockback and damage. Can someone help me with the frames of this technique. If a Yoshi user could parry perfectly, it is incredibly difficult for Yoshi to be hit. Very useful if done. Most Yoshi’s can only do this by accident due to the incredibly difficult timing

DJL: Double Jump Land, using continuous Double jumps to “wavedash,” flashy, but not useful (outside of mindgames and more often DJCC’s)

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Thanks.
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If this analysis gets poor reception I’ll just let it die. Thanks for reading...if you got this far

My guide was used as a template? I'm flattered.

Ratings are a bit subjective for my liking, as IMO every move has SOME use. I like the formatting :D

Neut B breaks approaches and forces enemies to land.

Yoshi's grab is underrated - it's range isn't good, nor is it really fantastic, but 1/10? It's a lot faster than Link or Samus's upon missing.

Dash attack combos if used repeatedly at mid percent (esp. Kirby and Jiggs), is actually very fast, and sets up edgeguards nicely.

U-Tilt > U-Air doesn't do much against Jiggs...the only move that can hit 100% of the time vs a Jiggs from U-Tilt is Up-B, methinks.

Not bad as a guide. I don't use Yoshi too well, so I can't comment on much more.

Yoshi isn't that bad against Pika/ Fox / Kirby. I really think you shouldn't put that its almost impossible to be competitive with Yoshi (it isn't) as it might dissuade people from playing Yoshi when Yoshi is better against them compared to like 4-5 other characters

an uphill battle against them sure, but nowhere close to IMPOSSIBLE. Facing Sheer's gay yoshi with my Fox made me have to switch to Falcon to beat him because his parrying stupidity and retardness was too much effort when a tiny "mistake" with Fox leads to Fox getting killed easily

in fact I use Yoshi sometimes against laggy Kirby players online, works just fine

up-tilt spam ******* you can just grab them with the luxury of Yoshi's tongue range. Also, it's easy to build up the rather medium damage you need before something like f-air to down-b kills

You should also mention simply taking the hits with Yoshi in his recovery to get to the middle of the stage. He can take quite a hard beating without getting phased. Grabs if he humps the stage on the way up will still get him and Falcon up-b will still get him though

And also DI-ing hard hits that make Yoshi move a tiny bit back will let Yoshi often grab the edge barely

Kirby doesn't really mess up Yoshi's recovery unless you get ROCKed (down-b) at high percents, you can often just double jump past the inevitable down-air and most of his other moves

You can mitigate DI by just following the opponents with Down-air after an up-tilt, all you gotta do is start up a down-air after an up-tilt and as soon as they start DI-ing start following it. Easier with Jiggly's drll but still applicable with Yoshi

I think you should mention that a F-air on a shield leads to great shield break situations, even if you can't spam that move alone to break a shield its great for follow up n-airs to down smash. Just the wording on it makes it sound like f-air is useless in shield breaking when its often used as the first hit

F-air, n-air,n-air, down-smash breaks most shields, I think you should mention that

neutral-A is good for a panic move to get the opponent out of your face or even combos off the hyrule wall at 70-80 for a good amount of time.

and I would also give out some comboes from simple to hard

egg-lay i reckon should be higher, can be used for combo starters (even with button mashing to escape) and catches the rare mistake near the edge. great on dreamland as when you use the egglay underneath the platforms it can lead to an easy %60 dair from underneath.
also is a quickish move with good range and priority,
last point is you usually get the odd edge-guarder that tries to get the final spike/smash in (after you've already been knockbacked after a djc/jumps out of range) egg lay is great for these situautions too.

didnt see it in there but worth pointing out, yoshi's down b cancels his recovery

also neutral a can be used for some interesting wall combo's (not sure if DI can have much affect) only works at higher percentages,

Just a note about Neut B: better players won't fall prey to the recovering egg-lay trick. You can usually return to the edge, even if you can't simply by moving, because you can button mash out easily. It can't even force a desperate win, because Yoshi has no way of slowing his fall short of Down-B, which immediately speeds his fall up again.

Also, people won't move onto a platform in most cases. Even if they do, they can just make it so they come out before you jump or after you've jumped and attacked. They can follow with an attack if you're still there, and you'll be the one hit by a D-Air.

Would just like to point out that a grounded fair leads into a utilt on low %.

falcon and dk PWN yoshi

and you forgot link and ness in your move match up ratings

P D said:

and you forgot link and ness in your move match up ratings

Click to expand...

that's because they've never played!

P D said:

falcon and dk PWN yoshi

and you forgot link and ness in your move match up ratings

Click to expand...

lolwhoops
also, ill add that f-air thing as well...

Does Yoshi's knockback resistance on double jump only cover his head? I feel like it covers the whole body.

ok i think it's time for someone to tell the TRUTH about these dumb guides

any player who has played enough to be competent knows 90% of the obvious crap already (basic combos that don't work with DI, djcing -although mostly they djc just for the sake of doing it) but misses out on the so called "hidden" stuff that only better players know. Don't go so in depth about the obvious things.

Most of the time I just ignore these guides, I bet other people do so to. It's probably because most people waste their time with things like like PROS and CONS of yoshi!, ratings?!, saying moves are "overshadowed", the "styles" of yoshi etc. and learn absolutely nothing.

Keep the guides more to the point, and make it a little more visually easier on the eyes. And links to youtube videos of certain techniques would be useful for n00bs.

With this guide now i can become teh best Yoshi ever!

moves that shouldnt be used by yoshi : none
even his dtilt can be useful

also im sadly gonna have to agree with b link

I've never used a guide in any smash game.

I find it much more fun and rewarding just to learn the character yourself, without anyone telling you "good" moves and "bad" moves.

Rename it from "guide" to "Yoshi thread". I've always wanted a Yoshi thread anyway.

People can ask questions, we can put Yoshi frame data, matchup discussions etc.

Oh and must add vids of people like Prince, thats where you learn all the good strategies from.

i agree with sheer
and sheer, whatever happened to your +2k posts?

I think yoshi is the most different char of all. The no up+b, the parry and the invincible frames makes him stand out from the rest to me.

'Invincibility' recovery and 'invincibility' avoiding attacks is also achieved with Pikachu.

But I probably have to agree with you, Yoshi is the most different of the characters.

Also his awkward initial dash, his DJCing everything, set-knockback up and down tilts, he is pretty unique.

Then again, Jiggs is also unique...

Jiggs is soo broken. She kills people by falling asleep, she cries when she gets hit... lol scar

Anyone wanna tell me how to beat Sheer's Yoshi consistently with Samus?

kabal said:

Anyone wanna tell me how to beat Sheer's Yoshi consistently with Samus?

Click to expand...

Both you guys need to play more characters.

It's a +life happiness decision.

shouldnt you atleast be good with yoshi before making a huge guide

plain b is a good move when you link it to an up-b.
if someone goes in an egg they will instantly start spamming. if you throw an egg just above the top of the opponent (in the egg) as soon as they hatch, ur up-b will hit them and you can intercept there landing with a running a attack.

novakane said:

shouldnt you atleast be good with yoshi before making a huge guide

Click to expand...

did you seriously create a Smashboards profile to flame me?

Seriously Gav iXi/Novakaine iXi

the isai effect anyone

kabal said:

Anyone wanna tell me how to beat Sheer's Yoshi consistently with Samus?

Click to expand...

when he DJC's, up smash or back air.

in other words, camp and hit him when he misses a DJC

Novakane is no longer in iXi.

I need to work on my parry and shieldbreaking. I can do them, but I haven't perfected it yet.

Also, whats all the ways of shield breaking with Yoshi?
I know you got the utilt spam, but people can usually get out of that. But then you have where you do like 2-4 nairs and then a dsmash. I also seen one what Sheer does, when an opponent is shielding from behind, he'd do about 2-4 nairs and an upsmash.

Theres a million ways to break their shield but obviously the most reliable end with a downsmash or an upsmash.

If you're facing them use downsmash, if you're not use upsmash.

The basic formula is 3 djc'ed aerials + upsmash/downsmash. The starting aerials really dont matter but the last 2 aerials should always be nairs. So like...

bair - nair - nair - upsmash
fair - nair - nair - downsmash
nair - nair- nair - upsmash

etc etc

i've seen a nair nair nair + egg shield break lol

Do all of Yoshi's DJC aerials require different timing (to be as fast as possible)? Also do you need perfect DJC speed to shield break combo?

Samus doesn't have that hard a time edgeguarding Yoshi. He gets owned by grapple beam.

ballin4life said:

Do all of Yoshi's DJC aerials require different timing (to be as fast as possible)? Also do you need perfect DJC speed to shield break combo?

Click to expand...

I'm no Yoshi expert, but I'm 98% sure the answer is yes, because his different aerials have different start-up times.

N-Air would be very different to B-Air or F-Air, I guess.

On another note. are there going to be threads like this for every character?

We started doing one for each. I started a puff guide, but realized I wasn't the best person to do one (since I don't know everything about puff).

Would it be possible to add a combo guide to the character guides? Explaining their Basic to Advanced Combos? I'd like to learn more advanced stuff in detail.

For Yoshi combos vs heavies check out these videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn7VC8FM0ps&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXurBmd4PsA&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPBnezT-4bQ&feature=channel_page

Vs floaties you're a more limited because the utilt doesn't combo into stuff as easily. ftilt fair works, and sometimes you can get nair nair fair type combos as well.

ballin4life said:

Do all of Yoshi's DJC aerials require different timing (to be as fast as possible)? Also do you need perfect DJC speed to shield break combo?

Click to expand...

They require slightly different timing. N-air is the quickest, followed by the last hits of the down air, then most likely up air then back air, and then f-air

This is because if you do certain DJC's too fast or too slow, there won't be enough room for the DJC to come out

For example, Yoshi's f-air has pretty high ending lag and\ starting lag, you can't do a f-air incredibly low to the ground or the f-air will pause in the middle. This causes a DJL or Double Jump Land.

On the other hand, Yoshi's n-air has almost 0 lag due to it being a sex kick so it is overall easier to spam

The only reason why up air isn't used for breaking shields is due to the bad horizontal range

You don't need perfect DJC speed to break combos but it is much easier. Sheer and I don't play perfectly and we still break shields every so often

Also:

Nintendude1189 said:

Samus doesn't have that hard a time edgeguarding Yoshi. He gets owned by grapple beam.

Click to expand...

Yoshi doesn't come from the bottom vs characters like Link and Samus due to the extended grab. Yoshi should come from the top. There are barely any moves that Samus can safely attack Yoshi from above due to Samus's kinda bad range and priority

When I played Sheer's Yoshi I was getting him with the grab all the time. Even if Yoshi comes from higher up Bair has the potential to catch him.

What kinda combos do u wanna know WOTG?

Vs light characters I'd say the most effective combo is something like:

djc'ed fair - djc'ed nair - dash attack

It doesn't end there but the stage positioning depends on what u do next. If dash attack takes them off the stage you obviously spike. If not you can dash attack again or f-tilt/jabjab/f-smash/grab etc etc depending on percentage.

Yoshi combos light characters pritty well despite people thinking he can't since uptilt doesn't work.