TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Time for 2 more rediscussions. Remember 2 weeks until we move to the next 2!
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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #14: Fox
- Thread starter TLMSheikant
- Start date
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
FINALLY FIRST POST!
Hmm I have some experience with this matchup but I haven't really analyzed it until this post.
One thng I can say is that WATCH OUT FOR UP SMASH. That move KO's at around 95%. O___O
Also, WATCH OUT FOR DAIR. If he connects with a dair an up tilt chain will come next at low percentages.
Our bair ***** Fox....hard as does our zair. One bair at low percent can = up to 70% for us. He's also REALLY light so your usual killing trouble doesn't hinder us much here. His SHL and SHDL aren't really a problem but keep your eyes open for it. He also has a reflector. It can get annoying.
His recovery is predicatible. Not meaning gimpable just readible. Read the illusion and punish and if he even THINKS about an UpB read and punish and possibly dair him to hell. Shine spike IS STILL ALIVE HERE IN BRAWL so don't forget about that. Charged arrows stop the illusion btw.
Fox has amazing mindgame potential due to his blinding speed. He can do aerials for seemingly no reason to make you think that he's open when all and all, he's not. For instance, him doing a retreating bair into a quick dash attack or even a hypen smash. His dash attack is not to be taken lightly. I've noticed that if Fox hits with the weak spot of his nair then a quick dash attack will connect. SH'd shine (mindgames) nair after it to quick dash attack. It's really fun to watch him move. It's a surprise what he's gonna do next.
I sum this up to be a 55/45 us or a 50/50 . We don't have trouble klling him and out projectiles can lead to sick setups.
Hmm I have some experience with this matchup but I haven't really analyzed it until this post.
One thng I can say is that WATCH OUT FOR UP SMASH. That move KO's at around 95%. O___O
Also, WATCH OUT FOR DAIR. If he connects with a dair an up tilt chain will come next at low percentages.
Our bair ***** Fox....hard as does our zair. One bair at low percent can = up to 70% for us. He's also REALLY light so your usual killing trouble doesn't hinder us much here. His SHL and SHDL aren't really a problem but keep your eyes open for it. He also has a reflector. It can get annoying.
His recovery is predicatible. Not meaning gimpable just readible. Read the illusion and punish and if he even THINKS about an UpB read and punish and possibly dair him to hell. Shine spike IS STILL ALIVE HERE IN BRAWL so don't forget about that. Charged arrows stop the illusion btw.
Fox has amazing mindgame potential due to his blinding speed. He can do aerials for seemingly no reason to make you think that he's open when all and all, he's not. For instance, him doing a retreating bair into a quick dash attack or even a hypen smash. His dash attack is not to be taken lightly. I've noticed that if Fox hits with the weak spot of his nair then a quick dash attack will connect. SH'd shine (mindgames) nair after it to quick dash attack. It's really fun to watch him move. It's a surprise what he's gonna do next.
I sum this up to be a 55/45 us or a 50/50 . We don't have trouble klling him and out projectiles can lead to sick setups.
A~Kid/ToonethLinkage
Wants His Own Custom Title
OMG I hate facing Fox. 
I would just go Falco. I think its even cause we juggle him and gimp him, but us not being able to camp makes me hate this MU. Even.
I would just go Falco. I think its even cause we juggle him and gimp him, but us not being able to camp makes me hate this MU. Even.
copacetic
Smash Journeyman
His fair racks up a lot of damage if you get hit by all of it (can it be SDI'd?). If you start shielding the dair-utilt they can still go for a grab, which they can follow up with a fair or dash attack if you don't expect it, so it's best to just not let him come from above (CP lylat and camp under the platforms). As long as you have platforms above your head, the dair approach will be more difficult and predictable = less dangerous.
And iirc, if you get hit by dash attack, DI down and away and zair. He can try to uair you if you're hit up high for an early kill (just like we can).
Then again I alt sheik and ZSS so I don't have to actually worry about this MU.
And iirc, if you get hit by dash attack, DI down and away and zair. He can try to uair you if you're hit up high for an early kill (just like we can).
Then again I alt sheik and ZSS so I don't have to actually worry about this MU.
MJG
Smash Hero
Space Bairs work well IMO
Projectiles really aren't that bad in this match up
55:45 Fox
55:45 TL @.@
Projectiles really aren't that bad in this match up
55:45 TL @.@
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Eh...55:45 fox...>_> I give up.
Lightning93
Smash Champion
Lolz, second matchup in a row where people say gimping Fox is nothing too difficult... rising Fair solves most of our problems.
I would put this at around 50:50, maybe even a little towards Fox or TL adv. I don't have time to explain now, but I will laters!
I would put this at around 50:50, maybe even a little towards Fox or TL adv. I don't have time to explain now, but I will laters!
MJG
Smash Hero
Zeton uses rising fair several times when recovering back on stage and it works fine...especially since it will beat out our boomerang and arrows.
You should tell zeton to post in the fox boards more! He got 2nd at our midwest circuit @.@
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
Needs moar Fox's.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
U guys didnt play melee I guess. If its because of the reflector u suck. He has some good stuff but overall we beat him in range. And hes light solving our usual killing problems.
MJG
Smash Hero
Lol that was harsh. Did anybody even mention his reflector?
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Then why would it be 55-45 Fox. I fail to realize how he could possibly have an advantage over us. W/e its up to TL boards to decide the ratio anyways not me. sigh.
MJG
Smash Hero
Oh pfft...
That was supposed to be 55-45 TL
I still think we can out range wolf easily..Im just out of it because of football
EDIT: Fox not wolf -.-
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Oh >_>. LOL. ok.
Lobos
Smash Master
I use to think that fox has the advantage in this match up but I feel like its in TL advantage now. 55-45 TL
We all know that fox's usmash is deadly for us so just gotta watch out for it. A simple arrow can gimp fox try to illusion back on the stage. You can ledge hog fox's upb with tinks tether regrab. Fox's light weight makes it easier to kill with usmash, utilt, and uair. His shine can slow his fall speed and set up for a dair if you try to uair fox too early.
more later.....
We all know that fox's usmash is deadly for us so just gotta watch out for it. A simple arrow can gimp fox try to illusion back on the stage. You can ledge hog fox's upb with tinks tether regrab. Fox's light weight makes it easier to kill with usmash, utilt, and uair. His shine can slow his fall speed and set up for a dair if you try to uair fox too early.
more later.....
SnowballBob33
Smash Ace
This is in fox's favor.
(listing things fox has for him) Reflector and lasers stop the camp game. Usmash kills early. Shine gimps. Fair. Utilt chains. The typical stuff.
What does TL have going for him that would tip the scales in his favor? It doesn't seem like he has any gimmicks other than utilt chain and bair which doesn't last too long and isnt game changing. If you try to spam bair, your drift speed isn't ridiculous and the hitbox isn't abnormal, meaning fox could most likely resort to lazerz. Also, fair counters opponents who take to the air too often, meaning that isn't necesarrily a fool proof plan. Its kinda like falco's cg, except TL is limited in the grab game.
(listing things fox has for him) Reflector and lasers stop the camp game. Usmash kills early. Shine gimps. Fair. Utilt chains. The typical stuff.
What does TL have going for him that would tip the scales in his favor? It doesn't seem like he has any gimmicks other than utilt chain and bair which doesn't last too long and isnt game changing. If you try to spam bair, your drift speed isn't ridiculous and the hitbox isn't abnormal, meaning fox could most likely resort to lazerz. Also, fair counters opponents who take to the air too often, meaning that isn't necesarrily a fool proof plan. Its kinda like falco's cg, except TL is limited in the grab game.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
We outrange. Ur reflector is easy to bypass. Lasers dont outcamp smart TL campers. Shine gimps but only if TL is dumb enough to fall for that. We have some good edgeguarding stuff against Fox. Bombs, Zair, Bair, Nair are extremely dumb against Fox. Fox utilt chains do **** of course though.
- Joined
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Bombs and Zair.
Bombs are annoying. They stop all momentum and lead to follow ups.
Zair has 0 landing lag, and can follow up into many things.
Don't under estimate bair chains. They rack up damage and give us control.
MJG
Smash Hero
Retreating Bair works well against a fox who is using Dair as well as Up Air. I personally like to use pivot grab every once in awhile
I don't think Dair is a deciding factor.
The only problems that I have had in this match up is getting hit by an Up Smash after a miss-spaced zair. And DI'ing towards fox when he is using Jab. Fox can just use his reflector to punish us if we try to DI behind fox. Nothing to be scared of but its a useful move that comes out in 3 frames
We can get out of Up tilt combos faster than most characters since toonlink is a floaty character
AND, Im pretty sure that toonlink and fox will be killing around the same percentages but don't quote me just yet
I just wish we didn't get pushed back when toonlink is standing still and when fox is using his laser.
I don't think Dair is a deciding factor.
The only problems that I have had in this match up is getting hit by an Up Smash after a miss-spaced zair. And DI'ing towards fox when he is using Jab. Fox can just use his reflector to punish us if we try to DI behind fox. Nothing to be scared of but its a useful move that comes out in 3 frames
We can get out of Up tilt combos faster than most characters since toonlink is a floaty character
AND, Im pretty sure that toonlink and fox will be killing around the same percentages but don't quote me just yet
I just wish we didn't get pushed back when toonlink is standing still and when fox is using his laser.
SnowballBob33
Smash Ace
ok...
This may be a stage dependent matchup where Fox will need more space to avoid projectiles and less platforms to be able to abuse dair because a cramped stage would allow TL to abuse his sword and range through platforms.
Shine has invincibility frames (a lot of people don't know) meaning if you recover with up B because of a low sending move, possibly bair or dsmash, you are in gimp range and it is the fox's fault if you live.
Sry, I don't know what you mean by bypass. Bypass with projectiles or your spacing? Fox isn't just going to sit around with a reflector up because projectiles can be powershielded. It's just that in situation where you throw projectiles, there is a possiblity for it to go back and hit you.
Fox is very agile due to his fast fall speed, high jumping, and fast running speed. You aren't going to jump around and just throw bombs all day. Lasers will make you approach and vice versa.
This may be a stage dependent matchup where Fox will need more space to avoid projectiles and less platforms to be able to abuse dair because a cramped stage would allow TL to abuse his sword and range through platforms.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
1) I know VERY well i t has inviframes.
2) Thats why DI exists.
3) Fair and Upair outrange shine. GG. TL should never ever recover in this matchup from below, instead he will come from the side and outrange u with fair. It is a possibility of course if the TL messes up, but it shouldnt be giving Fox the advantage at all.
4) I know Fox is very agile.
5) If Fox is camping with lasers, we can FH bomb throw and outcamp you. YOU must approach not us, on most stages anyway.
6) Try powershielding bombs.
7) GG.
MJG
Smash Hero
Toonlink can also pull out a bomb, throw it away from the stage and Bair back onto the stage if the toonlink REALLY had a problem with getting back onstage.
- Joined
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Likewise, Toon Link isn't gonna be standing still in front of a stationary Fox throwing bombs. We don't have to throw bombs at you. Toons are pretty much always in the air, and if we throw the bomb downwards in front of you, the blast will go through the shine and hit. If you're using your shine the same way you power shield, we could just jump. If we JC Throw the bomb, we're already at a distance. And if we were to stand still, we could just shield it, and probably OoS something, whether it be a grab or a nair. Bombs are really versatile. Plus, it won't ONLY be bombs that we throw at you. We have 3 projectiles, and ways to throw all three of them almost consecutively. We have plenty of options, hence, the shine is easy to bypass. Plus, we can Zair through the shine if it ever comes to that.
If anything, Fox will be the one approaching. TL's projectiles > Fox's lasers. Oh and by the way, Fox is stuck between Doomed and Vulnerable.
Conviction
Human Nature
Ok I had enough of what's been being said............ what year are you guys living in? Fox players stop abusing dair after month 3 of brawl come on man.
Fair is our aerial with most range and second prioritize aerial. It's not just mutli-hits but it also increases fox's air mobility where he can drift to your shield and back out of safety (A mimic of peach's float when done correctly), ALSO it can be auto cancelled.
Now since you are a tether grabber fox can do some sick things to your shield.
Like Nair>Jab>grab and not get ****ed up for it.
Also the Delux sunshine combo works on TL unforunate for you guys (look it up)
Also coming down on fox is not the best idea if our Uair outpioritizes all of your moves besides Dair.
HEY FOX CAN IN A SINGLE SH REFLECT AN OBJECT AND SHL so I'm sure we win in camping. (BEING AERIAL KEEPS US MOBILE)
Our bair doesn't have bad range either and can be ACed it's our strongest aerial so it will probably be a killer on you guys.
What's range if you can't keep up with our agility?
It's been stated some I'm reiterating...Usmash kills early.
I saw some one say Bair our Uair? our Uair outprioritizes.
GETTING ON STAGE! I see the TLs are basing everything on Fox illisioning onto the stage.....not anything about him illisioning for the ledge grab. Since we have shine stalling (HELLO IT ALSO REFLECTS PROJECTILES) and rising Fair it makes predicting our ledge grab harder... not saying you guys can't gimp us.
BUT.....what is this only stupid TLs get hit by shine spike? I find SSpiking TL easy cause his Up b leaves his head open.
I'm just stating what I have experince with TLs at tournies.
So agruements come forth.
Fair is our aerial with most range and second prioritize aerial. It's not just mutli-hits but it also increases fox's air mobility where he can drift to your shield and back out of safety (A mimic of peach's float when done correctly), ALSO it can be auto cancelled.
Now since you are a tether grabber fox can do some sick things to your shield.
Like Nair>Jab>grab and not get ****ed up for it.
Also the Delux sunshine combo works on TL unforunate for you guys (look it up)
Also coming down on fox is not the best idea if our Uair outpioritizes all of your moves besides Dair.
HEY FOX CAN IN A SINGLE SH REFLECT AN OBJECT AND SHL so I'm sure we win in camping. (BEING AERIAL KEEPS US MOBILE)
Our bair doesn't have bad range either and can be ACed it's our strongest aerial so it will probably be a killer on you guys.
What's range if you can't keep up with our agility?
It's been stated some I'm reiterating...Usmash kills early.
I saw some one say Bair our Uair? our Uair outprioritizes.
GETTING ON STAGE! I see the TLs are basing everything on Fox illisioning onto the stage.....not anything about him illisioning for the ledge grab. Since we have shine stalling (HELLO IT ALSO REFLECTS PROJECTILES) and rising Fair it makes predicting our ledge grab harder... not saying you guys can't gimp us.
BUT.....what is this only stupid TLs get hit by shine spike? I find SSpiking TL easy cause his Up b leaves his head open.
I'm just stating what I have experince with TLs at tournies.
So agruements come forth.
MJG
Smash Hero
"List of characters easy to destory with this technique no spacing needed:
Lucas,Link,Captian Falcon,,Zero Suit Samus, Samus,Ivysaur,Yoshi, Toon Link,Olimar,Zelda"
You misspelled "destroy"
You really hyped up your own technique ^_^ looks interesting at least...
BUT...most toonlink will usually be moving most of the time anyways. I could only see your combo working a few times out of a full played set.
I would say that both characters can rack up damage on each other fairly fast.
I think I am going to the Halloween Fest. If you are going, we should meet up and get some matches in por favor.
Lucas,Link,Captian Falcon,,Zero Suit Samus, Samus,Ivysaur,Yoshi, Toon Link,Olimar,Zelda"
You misspelled "destroy"
You really hyped up your own technique ^_^ looks interesting at least...
BUT...most toonlink will usually be moving most of the time anyways. I could only see your combo working a few times out of a full played set.
I would say that both characters can rack up damage on each other fairly fast.
I think I am going to the Halloween Fest. If you are going, we should meet up and get some matches in por favor.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
I dont like Foxes u overrate ur character WAY too much. Sarcastic replies in quote.
SnowballBob33
Smash Ace
Full hop shine stall avoids a lot of stuff and positions for dair. Shl slowly racks up damage while you throw projectiles. Fox is faster than TL, meaning it doesn't take long to actually reach him when fox does approach. Fair is good safe aerial damage.
Fox's aerials have priority over his projectiles so its not hard getting around them. Bombs are the only thing that don't and you can't even use A attacks when you have one.
edit: Fox overrates their character yet, your argument is "oooh we camp, bair bair zair zair, you lose GG". Do you have fox exp?
Fox's aerials have priority over his projectiles so its not hard getting around them. Bombs are the only thing that don't and you can't even use A attacks when you have one.
edit: Fox overrates their character yet, your argument is "oooh we camp, bair bair zair zair, you lose GG". Do you have fox exp?
A~Kid/ToonethLinkage
Wants His Own Custom Title
Lmao S@nt you are TOO good with your replies! XD I love that. And yes I hate facing Foxes, pretty difficult. Pretty even cause we both have to play as best as we can. Even match. Lmao at Uair outprioritizing our Bair and Uair. wtf
Curaga
Smash Ace
Its 50/50 even; Toon Link is amazing in this match and so is Fox.
I'll put up a video of me versus Fezz's TL in this thread in a little. I'll also try to explain some of my insight on it from both perspectives.
By the way; Toon Link deserves A tier.
I'll put up a video of me versus Fezz's TL in this thread in a little. I'll also try to explain some of my insight on it from both perspectives.
By the way; Toon Link deserves A tier.
MJG
Smash Hero
A~kid. Your Post was almost completely pointless >.>
I have fox experience snowball. How good do you consider zeton to be? I would DEFINITELY consider him to be a better play than me overall but he hasn't beaten me in tourney play yet.
Also...toonlink CAN use his "A" moves when holding a bomb (Forward Smash)
We can also place a bomb on the ground, run back a little bit and then run back towards the bomb and execute an Up Smash at the same time; I have never done this though
We can also use all of our aerials when holding a bomb and we can use zair as well. This is useful against any fox who is sitting in their reflecting waiting for us to throw the bomb at them.
I can't think of one Aerial that out prioritizes bombs.
EDIT: That was modest of you to say Curaga. Most toonlink mains are happy with where he is at anyways though.
I have fox experience snowball. How good do you consider zeton to be? I would DEFINITELY consider him to be a better play than me overall but he hasn't beaten me in tourney play yet.
Also...toonlink CAN use his "A" moves when holding a bomb (Forward Smash)
We can also place a bomb on the ground, run back a little bit and then run back towards the bomb and execute an Up Smash at the same time; I have never done this though
We can also use all of our aerials when holding a bomb and we can use zair as well. This is useful against any fox who is sitting in their reflecting waiting for us to throw the bomb at them.
I can't think of one Aerial that out prioritizes bombs.
EDIT: That was modest of you to say Curaga. Most toonlink mains are happy with where he is at anyways though.
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2008
- Messages
- 10,050
So far what I got is this:
Fox can camp TL.
TL can camp Fox.
TL has arrows, boomerangs, bombs
Fox has a laser, and a reflector.
Fox's Uair is Jesus
TL's Dair is more Jesus
We don't use Dair often.
We can bomb/AD/move away
Problem solved.
Attacks that send TL low can present itself with a shine gimp.
DI down and catch the ledge with Zair.
If you don't, throw a bomb or rang at the ledge.
If you don't, take the KO.
Fox's reflector reflects all our projectiles.
TL can FH and spam safely.
TL can toss bombs in front of reflector.
TL can Zair through shine.
Fox can use the shine unpredictably
TL can spam unpredictably.
A lot of Fox's aerials can auto cancel.
A lot of TL's aerials can auto cancel as well.
Our Zair auto cancels.
Fox is swift and agile.
He can combo.
Toon Link can also combo.
Zair = follow ups.
Bombs have follow ups.
Anything I missed?
Edit: Personally, I think Toon Link has the edge in camping. You guys are under estimating us. Toon Links ALWAYS have a bomb in hand. We can use ALL of our projectiles with a bomb in hand, and we can Zair too. Our Hero's Shield can block your lasers, so in theory, all we have to do is stand still and we're set. Also, our projectiles have knockback. Fox's lasers don't. We both have our own arsenal of fancy tech that allows us to exploit our projectile game, but IMO, Toon Link is the one that will be outcamping Fox. Fox could just reflect everything, but that's dumb for a Fox to do. We can throw all of our projectiles at pretty much the same time, AND while approaching, so if you were to shield all of them, that would give us enough time to approach. It doesn't matter really. However, I'm sure Fox's are better than that. I'm sure you guys could figure out how to block most of our projectiles, but it's impossible to avoid all of them. Same goes for Toon Link. None of us have perfectly effective camping strategies, but Toon Link has the advantage while camping, IMO.
Then again, camping ISN'T the entire match up. It's only a piece of the battle.
Edit 2: Yes, I do have Fox experience. The main guy I practice with is a Fox main.
woot Edit 3:
Fox can camp TL.
TL can camp Fox.
TL has arrows, boomerangs, bombs
Fox has a laser, and a reflector.
Fox's Uair is Jesus
TL's Dair is more Jesus
We don't use Dair often.
We can bomb/AD/move away
Problem solved.
Attacks that send TL low can present itself with a shine gimp.
DI down and catch the ledge with Zair.
If you don't, throw a bomb or rang at the ledge.
If you don't, take the KO.
Fox's reflector reflects all our projectiles.
TL can FH and spam safely.
TL can toss bombs in front of reflector.
TL can Zair through shine.
Fox can use the shine unpredictably
TL can spam unpredictably.
A lot of Fox's aerials can auto cancel.
A lot of TL's aerials can auto cancel as well.
Our Zair auto cancels.
Fox is swift and agile.
He can combo.
Toon Link can also combo.
Zair = follow ups.
Bombs have follow ups.
Anything I missed?
Edit: Personally, I think Toon Link has the edge in camping. You guys are under estimating us. Toon Links ALWAYS have a bomb in hand. We can use ALL of our projectiles with a bomb in hand, and we can Zair too. Our Hero's Shield can block your lasers, so in theory, all we have to do is stand still and we're set. Also, our projectiles have knockback. Fox's lasers don't. We both have our own arsenal of fancy tech that allows us to exploit our projectile game, but IMO, Toon Link is the one that will be outcamping Fox. Fox could just reflect everything, but that's dumb for a Fox to do. We can throw all of our projectiles at pretty much the same time, AND while approaching, so if you were to shield all of them, that would give us enough time to approach. It doesn't matter really. However, I'm sure Fox's are better than that. I'm sure you guys could figure out how to block most of our projectiles, but it's impossible to avoid all of them. Same goes for Toon Link. None of us have perfectly effective camping strategies, but Toon Link has the advantage while camping, IMO.
Then again, camping ISN'T the entire match up. It's only a piece of the battle.
Edit 2: Yes, I do have Fox experience. The main guy I practice with is a Fox main.
woot Edit 3:
We have our BCD, which is also a One Hit KO on water, and can gimp Fox in normal stages. (look it up)
Lightning93
Smash Champion
BCD is most probably a OHKO on water stages for sure, but anywhere else, we can survive.
Please don't make fun of Iblis' spelling/arguments, he is Japanese and still needs to work on his english.
Fox should rarely be using onstage reflector, running powershields should be enough. From my TL experience, Fox does take some damage as he approaches, but as soon as he shields TL's zair we are able to punish. Up-tilt is not our only damage builder, jab's, grabs, Fair and the like will get the job done.
Bair chains won't work on us too long, but Spacing AC Nair, Bair, and Fair to quickdraw is a good way to keep us in shield. Although we may be able to jump over the arrow and punish accordingly.
Fox doesn't win camping in terms of helping his approach, but the speed and range of his lasers definitely provoke some kind of forward action from TL, even if it's with a boomerang/bomb/arrow.
We don't always use shine to gimp, Nair, Bair, and Dair can do the job just fine and can be pulled out fast enough after you try and punish us with whiffed Fair/Nair/Bair. I would suggest stopping us with arrows or boomerangs or something, but then that may require you to use up-b... In this way gimping is about equal, both characters get screwed if forced to use their up-b, Fox moreso than TL, but Fox rarely uses Firefox anyways.
Please don't make fun of Iblis' spelling/arguments, he is Japanese and still needs to work on his english.
Fox should rarely be using onstage reflector, running powershields should be enough. From my TL experience, Fox does take some damage as he approaches, but as soon as he shields TL's zair we are able to punish. Up-tilt is not our only damage builder, jab's, grabs, Fair and the like will get the job done.
Bair chains won't work on us too long, but Spacing AC Nair, Bair, and Fair to quickdraw is a good way to keep us in shield. Although we may be able to jump over the arrow and punish accordingly.
Fox doesn't win camping in terms of helping his approach, but the speed and range of his lasers definitely provoke some kind of forward action from TL, even if it's with a boomerang/bomb/arrow.
We don't always use shine to gimp, Nair, Bair, and Dair can do the job just fine and can be pulled out fast enough after you try and punish us with whiffed Fair/Nair/Bair. I would suggest stopping us with arrows or boomerangs or something, but then that may require you to use up-b... In this way gimping is about equal, both characters get screwed if forced to use their up-b, Fox moreso than TL, but Fox rarely uses Firefox anyways.
Zeton
Smash Lord
Reflect your arrows, bombs, or worse, your boomerang, you got Fox AND your own projectile coming at you. You throw any projectile straight forward, Fox can Short Hop Fair hover over your bomb's explosion as well as probably beat your other projectiles. Fox's Dair and Nair also beats your projectiles. (However dair doesn't beat bomb I don't think...)
Toon link's best bet is to keep fox in mid range, but fox can easily manipulate that positioning.
As for the downsmash gimp, Fox can fair recover enough to not get gimped. It sends you flying with you back toward the stage? Use reflector to turn around, then fair jump back.
If Fox expects an aerial attack from toonlink after attacking his shield(Zair, bair, nair), fox can Upsmash out of shield.
and if Toonlink tries to hook shot recover, 1 reflector hit from anywhere on the edge and Toonlink gets gimped.(Depends if TL uses his jump.)
In my opinion this match up is determined by how long TL can space Fox and how much Fox can mind game TL with his own attacks. It is about even in my opinion.
Toon link's best bet is to keep fox in mid range, but fox can easily manipulate that positioning.
As for the downsmash gimp, Fox can fair recover enough to not get gimped. It sends you flying with you back toward the stage? Use reflector to turn around, then fair jump back.
If Fox expects an aerial attack from toonlink after attacking his shield(Zair, bair, nair), fox can Upsmash out of shield.
and if Toonlink tries to hook shot recover, 1 reflector hit from anywhere on the edge and Toonlink gets gimped.(Depends if TL uses his jump.)
In my opinion this match up is determined by how long TL can space Fox and how much Fox can mind game TL with his own attacks. It is about even in my opinion.
Zeton
Smash Lord
What happened at OH SNAP? In our friendlies? We were about even.
as for your retreating back air, I can run reverse an Upsmash from under you. or run up powershield it and wait for you to land.
Zeton
Smash Lord
I recall the 3rd match I won the set, then line moved for people in line to fight me in friendlies.
I also recall me fighting Santi and you finding an interest of my Fox(Which is why you wanted to have some friendlies with me in the first place.) after I JV 2 stocked him in the crew battle match.
If you want, I'll probably be going to Phase 2 in Dallas Texas, maybe we can buckle down and figure out each other's match up strategies to their best. I'm all up for helping people figure out match ups and what not so everyone can get better.
I wanted to play you to see what santi did wrong. And I really dont remember much of our set. Just that I 3 stocked you because I got the downsmash gimp on your 3rd stock. But yea, next time we meet, i'd MM you. Thats the only way to get me serious outside of tournament. I dont really try that hard in friendlies, and usually more focused on just learning what the character Im playing can do if its a new match up.
Also, hyro beat you in tournament =] Go TLs!! <3
Also, hyro beat you in tournament =] Go TLs!! <3