Zeton
Smash Lord
Looking forward to it I'm all for getting the best from the best.
That way I can get better in the long run.
That way I can get better in the long run.
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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #14: Fox
- Thread starter TLMSheikant
- Start date
copacetic
Smash Journeyman
First, yes fox can get close to the stage with a rising fair and whatnot (though zair, fair, and nair will go through it and hit you further offstage forcing the worse recovery), but in the case that he has to use a special to recover then there are two scenarios:
1) (shine stall if necessary)-> illusion. Here, we either tether hog if you're low or just predict it and meet you with one of our moves that counter it. Personally, I prefer the f-air. Doing this can force situation (2)
2) (shine stall if necessary)-> up-b. My personal favorite to punish. Pull out a bomb, tether the ledge. They have two options: i) recover from low and try to barely make it onstage and hope for the ledge or ii) recover at a mediumish height and land more significantly onstage.
for i), it takes a long time to start up and they do so from a good distance away, so toss the bomb and then spike.
for ii), ledge-hop bcdg ftw (no second jump if you do it right)
Usually you'll see illusion though if theyre smart, since it's harder for TL to get an autokill out of.
Now as far as TL's recovery goes, it's not much but if we're stuck in a situation where we would get shine-spiked, just using our up-b a bit earlier can start us out of the shine's range and hit you with the sword, though we won't get the ledge that way. In general though, it avoids the shinespike and makes us eat some other move instead. You'd say it's easy to compensate, but TL shoots up pretty fast and floats pretty slow, so us going up a full half second earlier and using our up-b offensively WILL catch you off-guard, and maybe just barely enough to avoid danger
1) (shine stall if necessary)-> illusion. Here, we either tether hog if you're low or just predict it and meet you with one of our moves that counter it. Personally, I prefer the f-air. Doing this can force situation (2)
2) (shine stall if necessary)-> up-b. My personal favorite to punish. Pull out a bomb, tether the ledge. They have two options: i) recover from low and try to barely make it onstage and hope for the ledge or ii) recover at a mediumish height and land more significantly onstage.
for i), it takes a long time to start up and they do so from a good distance away, so toss the bomb and then spike.
for ii), ledge-hop bcdg ftw (no second jump if you do it right)
Usually you'll see illusion though if theyre smart, since it's harder for TL to get an autokill out of.
Now as far as TL's recovery goes, it's not much but if we're stuck in a situation where we would get shine-spiked, just using our up-b a bit earlier can start us out of the shine's range and hit you with the sword, though we won't get the ledge that way. In general though, it avoids the shinespike and makes us eat some other move instead. You'd say it's easy to compensate, but TL shoots up pretty fast and floats pretty slow, so us going up a full half second earlier and using our up-b offensively WILL catch you off-guard, and maybe just barely enough to avoid danger
This match up is pretty even.
I sorta feel like, when I'm discussing this particular matchup, that I've got my feet on either side of a barb wire fence XD. But I'll give it a shot.
First of all, Toon out camps Fox. A lot of it has already been said, Bombs beat reflector, Toon has three projectiles and so on, but when it comes down to the amount of damage being dealt out, Toon out camps easy. So this puts Fox into a position that he doesn't want to be in. He has to approach.
Toon wins the spam war.
Landing the kill move. Toon, yes he can combo Fox and yes Fox can die early because of his light weight, but Toon can still have trouble killing believe it or not. Why? Because Fox should easilly be able to bait and punish all of Toon's killing moves. Fox on the other hand is the combo king, to the point where he can combo into his U-smash. So Fox won't have any trouble killing at all.
Fox wins the landing the kill move war.
As far as the early kill goes, Toon's recovery is quite good. If Fox tries to gimp his recovery Toon has his projectiles to stop any approach from up high in the air. So there really isn't any problem here. If the Toon is recovering from further below however, he has a problem. His options become more limited because of the fact that only his boomerang can be angled diagonally upwards, so if Toon wants to use his Bombs or arrows, he will need to use them right after the double jump. So presuming that he has already used his double jump and is now under the ledge again, he can angle the Boomerang upwards/towards the edge, try to hit you with a quick aerial if you come out (if Fox baits the aerial, it will pretty much mean that Toon has to use Up-B to recover), airdodge an attempted gimp, Tether and Up-B which can both be gimped.
As for Fox, recovering from up high is absolutely no problem. Does anyone even want to debate this point? Recovering down low, Fox has his shine stalling, Illusioning, Rising Fair and Up-B. The Illusion can be used in many ways and when combined with shine stalling, it can be a very versatile recovery. That said, Toon can actually deal with all of these situations. What the Toon can try to do, is force you to use your Up-B to recover by setting up a quick wall of projectiles to take out the Illusion on to stage then edge hog the Illusion to the ledge. This is presuming that you already used the rising Fair.
So I would say, that recovering high, they are equal. Recovering low, they are also equal if not then slightly in Fox's favour.
As for the BCDG, although Fox can technically make it back on stage (this is presuming that you remember to turn around in the shine, that the shine doesn't make recovering even harder by boosting you even further off stage when you use it, that you use Rising Fair then Instantly Illusion, all of this relying on you reacting instantly and not being like, wtf then reacting too late which is what usually happens.) now where was I, even though you can technically make it back on stage, you are still extremely gimpable because you only have that one way to make it back which = predictable. So don't tell me that the BCDG doesn't have an extremely high chance of taking a stock.
Up close, Fox wins hands down.
Medium distance, Toon wins.
Long distance, hmm. Fox has his lasers and reflector, Toon has a smash thrown Boomerang and slightly charged arrows. Fox wins simply because at long range, Bombs no longer become a problem which means Fox can reflect whatever he wants and he can easilly power shield/avoid everything else.
Another thing that helps Fox is the fact that he doesn't have to worry about Toon's Grab. So he can get in his face and put pressure on his shield. Also, Toon's keep saying that the Bomb is everything and while this is true, with the amount of pressure you'll be under, you might find it hard to even find the time to pull out a Bomb. I'm not saying you won't be able to period, but having a Fox in your face will make it harder then usual.
But that's about all I wanted to say, most of it has been said. I've played this matchup both ways many times. So yeah, it's pretty even, at most 55-45 either way.
I sorta feel like, when I'm discussing this particular matchup, that I've got my feet on either side of a barb wire fence XD. But I'll give it a shot.
First of all, Toon out camps Fox. A lot of it has already been said, Bombs beat reflector, Toon has three projectiles and so on, but when it comes down to the amount of damage being dealt out, Toon out camps easy. So this puts Fox into a position that he doesn't want to be in. He has to approach.
Toon wins the spam war.
Landing the kill move. Toon, yes he can combo Fox and yes Fox can die early because of his light weight, but Toon can still have trouble killing believe it or not. Why? Because Fox should easilly be able to bait and punish all of Toon's killing moves. Fox on the other hand is the combo king, to the point where he can combo into his U-smash. So Fox won't have any trouble killing at all.
Fox wins the landing the kill move war.
As far as the early kill goes, Toon's recovery is quite good. If Fox tries to gimp his recovery Toon has his projectiles to stop any approach from up high in the air. So there really isn't any problem here. If the Toon is recovering from further below however, he has a problem. His options become more limited because of the fact that only his boomerang can be angled diagonally upwards, so if Toon wants to use his Bombs or arrows, he will need to use them right after the double jump. So presuming that he has already used his double jump and is now under the ledge again, he can angle the Boomerang upwards/towards the edge, try to hit you with a quick aerial if you come out (if Fox baits the aerial, it will pretty much mean that Toon has to use Up-B to recover), airdodge an attempted gimp, Tether and Up-B which can both be gimped.
As for Fox, recovering from up high is absolutely no problem. Does anyone even want to debate this point? Recovering down low, Fox has his shine stalling, Illusioning, Rising Fair and Up-B. The Illusion can be used in many ways and when combined with shine stalling, it can be a very versatile recovery. That said, Toon can actually deal with all of these situations. What the Toon can try to do, is force you to use your Up-B to recover by setting up a quick wall of projectiles to take out the Illusion on to stage then edge hog the Illusion to the ledge. This is presuming that you already used the rising Fair.
So I would say, that recovering high, they are equal. Recovering low, they are also equal if not then slightly in Fox's favour.
As for the BCDG, although Fox can technically make it back on stage (this is presuming that you remember to turn around in the shine, that the shine doesn't make recovering even harder by boosting you even further off stage when you use it, that you use Rising Fair then Instantly Illusion, all of this relying on you reacting instantly and not being like, wtf then reacting too late which is what usually happens.) now where was I, even though you can technically make it back on stage, you are still extremely gimpable because you only have that one way to make it back which = predictable. So don't tell me that the BCDG doesn't have an extremely high chance of taking a stock.
Up close, Fox wins hands down.
Medium distance, Toon wins.
Long distance, hmm. Fox has his lasers and reflector, Toon has a smash thrown Boomerang and slightly charged arrows. Fox wins simply because at long range, Bombs no longer become a problem which means Fox can reflect whatever he wants and he can easilly power shield/avoid everything else.
Another thing that helps Fox is the fact that he doesn't have to worry about Toon's Grab. So he can get in his face and put pressure on his shield. Also, Toon's keep saying that the Bomb is everything and while this is true, with the amount of pressure you'll be under, you might find it hard to even find the time to pull out a Bomb. I'm not saying you won't be able to period, but having a Fox in your face will make it harder then usual.
But that's about all I wanted to say, most of it has been said. I've played this matchup both ways many times. So yeah, it's pretty even, at most 55-45 either way.
- Joined
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I'll call it even.
Is there anything I should know about any of Fox's moves? Like, in terms of DI, or range or what not? I know that you have to DI downward for Fox's DSmash, so that you can hit the floor and Zair the ledge.
Anything else that might be useful?
Is there anything I should know about any of Fox's moves? Like, in terms of DI, or range or what not? I know that you have to DI downward for Fox's DSmash, so that you can hit the floor and Zair the ledge.
Anything else that might be useful?
MJG
Smash Hero
When fox uses Jab, its best to DI away from him because he will just use his reflector if you start to DI behind him. It comes out in 3 frames so its almost impossible to punish his Jab.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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Am I the only who thinks that TL's projectiles just aren't THAT hard to avoid?
like, Fox can throw 4 or 5 lasers in a FH, and 2 or 3 in a SH... while he's avoiding other projectiles... *shrug* it's really not that hard... and I don't feel that either character really wins a camping war here. Bombs don't travel as far as lasers, and everything else can be reflected on reaction. TL is a quick little bugger, though, so yeah, he can avoid camping as well. I do think that Fox will usually put about 2-4% more in the scenario on TL than vice versa, but they're even.
And for recovery... please stop saying that X attack goes through illusion. Everything goes through illusion, as the hitbox is BEHIND Fox.. This is well known. Fox has more options that most people are giving him credit for, however.the multiple timings of illusions cancels and high firefox, mixed with rising Fair and shine stall will always give Fox a safe way to get back to the stage.
Also, if Fox has any forward momentum, and dash shields, his shield slides farther than most character's... so if you do an aerial or zair that isn't retreating, and Fox dash shields, he gets a free usmash or grab. and if all your aerials are retreating, and Fox keeps approaching with shield, you eventually run out of space
To top that off, Fox can have a lot of fun on your shield, as you know... Nair is a free hit on shield...
and Fox isn't "Doomed" lol. that was disproven quite a while ago...
Fox's Bair outranges yours slightly, but is not disjointed, to the attacks usually will trade, with both characters being hit. Uair outprioritizes all of your aerials from a low angle (except for Dair), between 45 degrees down on each side. Your Dair is surprisinly safe, actually, but should of course not be overused.
Fox kills slightly earlier than TL in the match, and I feel puts slightly more damage, and has an easier time landing safe attacks, if just from a punishment game, because TL's attacks are not as safe in the match as usual.
It's a really even match, but I give a slight edge to Fox here... 55-45 Fox.
like, Fox can throw 4 or 5 lasers in a FH, and 2 or 3 in a SH... while he's avoiding other projectiles... *shrug* it's really not that hard... and I don't feel that either character really wins a camping war here. Bombs don't travel as far as lasers, and everything else can be reflected on reaction. TL is a quick little bugger, though, so yeah, he can avoid camping as well. I do think that Fox will usually put about 2-4% more in the scenario on TL than vice versa, but they're even.
And for recovery... please stop saying that X attack goes through illusion. Everything goes through illusion, as the hitbox is BEHIND Fox.. This is well known. Fox has more options that most people are giving him credit for, however.the multiple timings of illusions cancels and high firefox, mixed with rising Fair and shine stall will always give Fox a safe way to get back to the stage.
Also, if Fox has any forward momentum, and dash shields, his shield slides farther than most character's... so if you do an aerial or zair that isn't retreating, and Fox dash shields, he gets a free usmash or grab. and if all your aerials are retreating, and Fox keeps approaching with shield, you eventually run out of space
To top that off, Fox can have a lot of fun on your shield, as you know... Nair is a free hit on shield...
and Fox isn't "Doomed" lol. that was disproven quite a while ago...
Fox's Bair outranges yours slightly, but is not disjointed, to the attacks usually will trade, with both characters being hit. Uair outprioritizes all of your aerials from a low angle (except for Dair), between 45 degrees down on each side. Your Dair is surprisinly safe, actually, but should of course not be overused.
Fox kills slightly earlier than TL in the match, and I feel puts slightly more damage, and has an easier time landing safe attacks, if just from a punishment game, because TL's attacks are not as safe in the match as usual.
It's a really even match, but I give a slight edge to Fox here... 55-45 Fox.
MJG
Smash Hero
I thought you gave some really good points...in a calm manor also XD
Anyways..I feel that we can win this match up if we keep fox at mid-range.
In reality, any character can maneuver around toonlinks projectile spam. Its harder for toonlink's opponents to actually get to toonlink if they mix up their spam game. Bombs can lead up to several follow ups and our basically toonlink's best friend in every match up (Except against olimar -.-)
Most of the time, toonlink will be using Bair as a retreating move once we have executed our Bair and Up tilt "combos". This is a pretty safe option IMO since Bair sweeps from below and high; its pretty hard to punish.
As far as gimping goes. I have only gimped a fox once and that was due to an Down Smash on Battlefield but the fox (zeton) was in the process of using Forward Smash, so their DI was messed up.
I still say its 55:45 TL or 50:50 at worse... This is assuming that both players know the match up well.
Anyways..I feel that we can win this match up if we keep fox at mid-range.
In reality, any character can maneuver around toonlinks projectile spam. Its harder for toonlink's opponents to actually get to toonlink if they mix up their spam game. Bombs can lead up to several follow ups and our basically toonlink's best friend in every match up (Except against olimar -.-)
Most of the time, toonlink will be using Bair as a retreating move once we have executed our Bair and Up tilt "combos". This is a pretty safe option IMO since Bair sweeps from below and high; its pretty hard to punish.
As far as gimping goes. I have only gimped a fox once and that was due to an Down Smash on Battlefield but the fox (zeton) was in the process of using Forward Smash, so their DI was messed up.
I still say its 55:45 TL or 50:50 at worse... This is assuming that both players know the match up well.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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Hey man, no sense getting mad over a video game. ha
Mid-range is typically where Fox can get outranged by some characters, so that probably is your best bet. Keep in mind, however, that dash usmash can connect from that distance. and again, Fox's dash speed is very quick, so he can get inside with a shield if you are not completely on top of your spacing and timings.
Fox is one of the best punishing characters in the game, given his reliable 30+% combos, combos to kill moves, fast fall speed, and very quick dash speed, so you really have to be careful, if you are within dash range of Fox... which, given that I've seen a lot of talk about bair and zair, I believe this is about the spacing where TL would like to be.
And while most characters can try to maneuver around the projectiles, Fox's speed and falling speed really help him. not to mention reflecting on reaction, and Fox's laser is quick enough that he doesn't exactly HAVE to get through all the projectiles... just land a couple lasers, and avoid the projectiles, making it a bit easier.
Bair is easily your most useful aerial, and that I can agree with. I have given a couple examples of how Fox could get through it, with either a bair, or sliding shield really until you run out of room... but that doesn't really decrease it's use THAT much... just makes it a bit risky, if a bair can go through yours.
Assuming good DI, I really can't see how either character would gimp the other... at least not consistently at all. if you DI down the dsmash, you take away our best gimp setup by z-grabbing the ledge. At the same time, given proper Fox recovery, even from a dsmash gimp, he's able to have several options to return to the stage.
So TL will recover high. Fox has really good options against most landing opponents, but I find TL quite safe. Usually, a dash shield usmash beats all landing options, but TL's dair bounces off the shield, bombs disrupt the punishment, and other aerials are quick for countering anything... so it's definitely not guaranteed damage.
I saw somewhere the TL has 70% combos? are these reliable, or just situational? because I'm certainly not aware of combos, or even legit strings, that go that high for him... Want to know mainly to avoid it with Fox, and learn it with TL. lol
Honestly, 6-4 for either character is too much, imo. I personally don't believe it's in TL's favor, but I could easily understand a 5-5 mark.
Mid-range is typically where Fox can get outranged by some characters, so that probably is your best bet. Keep in mind, however, that dash usmash can connect from that distance. and again, Fox's dash speed is very quick, so he can get inside with a shield if you are not completely on top of your spacing and timings.
Fox is one of the best punishing characters in the game, given his reliable 30+% combos, combos to kill moves, fast fall speed, and very quick dash speed, so you really have to be careful, if you are within dash range of Fox... which, given that I've seen a lot of talk about bair and zair, I believe this is about the spacing where TL would like to be.
And while most characters can try to maneuver around the projectiles, Fox's speed and falling speed really help him. not to mention reflecting on reaction, and Fox's laser is quick enough that he doesn't exactly HAVE to get through all the projectiles... just land a couple lasers, and avoid the projectiles, making it a bit easier.
Bair is easily your most useful aerial, and that I can agree with. I have given a couple examples of how Fox could get through it, with either a bair, or sliding shield really until you run out of room... but that doesn't really decrease it's use THAT much... just makes it a bit risky, if a bair can go through yours.
Assuming good DI, I really can't see how either character would gimp the other... at least not consistently at all. if you DI down the dsmash, you take away our best gimp setup by z-grabbing the ledge. At the same time, given proper Fox recovery, even from a dsmash gimp, he's able to have several options to return to the stage.
So TL will recover high. Fox has really good options against most landing opponents, but I find TL quite safe. Usually, a dash shield usmash beats all landing options, but TL's dair bounces off the shield, bombs disrupt the punishment, and other aerials are quick for countering anything... so it's definitely not guaranteed damage.
I saw somewhere the TL has 70% combos? are these reliable, or just situational? because I'm certainly not aware of combos, or even legit strings, that go that high for him... Want to know mainly to avoid it with Fox, and learn it with TL. lol
Honestly, 6-4 for either character is too much, imo. I personally don't believe it's in TL's favor, but I could easily understand a 5-5 mark.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
We have strings with bair that are hard to escape except with SDI/DI down depending on %. U dont want to DI up as we can finish it with an upair and u wont like that >_>.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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That's fair... I think 70% is a bit of an exaggeration, but the original wording was that one bair CAN = 70%... so that's fair, I guess... Fox players can say fairly similar things, due to the adaptability of his combos.
Also, just to reiterate something I said earlier, and to counter another statement I saw on the first page,
Fox can Nair your shield without fear of a shield grab. Of course TL's OoS nair is something to think about, but you probably shouldn't throw out too many grabs in this match at all.
But for reasons stated earlier, I would place this match at 55-45 for Fox, and understand something like a 50-50.
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
Even matchup is even. You Foxes are so sexy to watch. <3
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
I like playing as Fox...just not competitevely. I never quite understood why u foxes think zss **** u tho. Unpractical dsmash chain is unpractical lol. Ive been able to avoid it for a whole set (the zss didnt spam trying to use it only in situations where I messed up but i didnt xd) I won lol it was friendlies tho. Oh, and I now think this is dead even, possibly 55-45 TL.
A~Kid/ToonethLinkage
Wants His Own Custom Title
Dead even matchup is dead even. =\
Popcornio
Smash Apprentice
I would have to put this at 55:45 TL, 50:50 at the worst.
Here are a few of my opinions on a few points...
- Fox can reflect projectiles!
- Most Tinks don't fire projectiles straight ahead (unless it's a SH Arrow Cancel), and most of the time if you reflect those they don't get much distance on them before they disappear and are slow enough or us to PS them if they do. Good luck reflecting bombs, they tend to not go anywhere when reflected and you get hit by the blast radius. The only use I see this against is our boomerang, perhaps the lowest used projectile on ground situations.
- Fox can kill early!
- Well, due to your lightness, Tink can kill rather early too and we have a lot of tools to use... N-air sometimes, F-air, U-air, U-tilt (good for predicting a D-air from Fox)
- Fox's recovery isn't that bad!
- But it has that horrible start up time (Up-B) and can be read. Also, the Illusion can be stopped by a Z-air and with our air game, we could use this to our advantage.
- Fox can gimp with shine!
- Most of the times, we generally have a bomb while recovering towards the stage and we can use these to interrupt any ledge games you would try to pull. On top of that, with good DI, we don't generally need to recover low so it can be very situational.
Things to Tinks to watch out for:
- Raising F-air
- D-air to U-tilt
- U-smash
Things for Fox to watch out for:
- B-air chains
- Projectiles (Bombs!!!)
- Z-air
Overall, the two generally play the same with their own personal taste.
- Both can camp with projectiles
- Both have decent combos
- Both are light/quick
... Gay tripping, is gay.
Here are a few of my opinions on a few points...
- Fox can reflect projectiles!
- Most Tinks don't fire projectiles straight ahead (unless it's a SH Arrow Cancel), and most of the time if you reflect those they don't get much distance on them before they disappear and are slow enough or us to PS them if they do. Good luck reflecting bombs, they tend to not go anywhere when reflected and you get hit by the blast radius. The only use I see this against is our boomerang, perhaps the lowest used projectile on ground situations.
- Fox can kill early!
- Well, due to your lightness, Tink can kill rather early too and we have a lot of tools to use... N-air sometimes, F-air, U-air, U-tilt (good for predicting a D-air from Fox)
- Fox's recovery isn't that bad!
- But it has that horrible start up time (Up-B) and can be read. Also, the Illusion can be stopped by a Z-air and with our air game, we could use this to our advantage.
- Fox can gimp with shine!
- Most of the times, we generally have a bomb while recovering towards the stage and we can use these to interrupt any ledge games you would try to pull. On top of that, with good DI, we don't generally need to recover low so it can be very situational.
Things to Tinks to watch out for:
- Raising F-air
- D-air to U-tilt
- U-smash
Things for Fox to watch out for:
- B-air chains
- Projectiles (Bombs!!!)
- Z-air
Overall, the two generally play the same with their own personal taste.
- Both can camp with projectiles
- Both have decent combos
- Both are light/quick
... Gay tripping, is gay.
A~Kid/ToonethLinkage
Wants His Own Custom Title
Wow Jerm, 60 - 40 who? Ain't no bloody 60 - 40 for us or them. This is so even. He might be light but he kills us so early its not even funny. If the Fox knows what he's doing then he'll give us one hell of a fight.
Popcornio
Smash Apprentice
But it does into the U-tilt, which can rack up a lot of damage fast if you don't watch out for it.
I would say at best for Tink, it's 55:45. Most of the points have been covered already, but it would definitely be in Tink's favor if he could reliably keep Fox at mid-range.
Why? Fox can't do anything there. It's not safe to reflect projectiles, and Tink controls the space with Zair and Bair. Unfortunately, Fox is a speedy ******** and it's very difficult to keep him midrange (Tink just doesn't have the type of stage control that can keep Fox there). The matchup is really dominated by good zoning on Tink's part, and camping far away/getting in close for Fox.
Pick small stages. Fox doesn't like them in this matchup.
Why? Fox can't do anything there. It's not safe to reflect projectiles, and Tink controls the space with Zair and Bair. Unfortunately, Fox is a speedy ******** and it's very difficult to keep him midrange (Tink just doesn't have the type of stage control that can keep Fox there). The matchup is really dominated by good zoning on Tink's part, and camping far away/getting in close for Fox.
Pick small stages. Fox doesn't like them in this matchup.
We don't anymore. We thought the Dsmash chain was easier to land than it turned out to be.
Zeton wants to play you.
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
Trolling??
Lightning93
Smash Champion
I think everything has already been said here. 50:50 sounds great to me. But I also wouldn't mind 55:45 either way tbh.
SnowballBob33
Smash Ace
I agree wit Fen
But since its back and forth 55-45 either way, then call it even.
and lol at 65-35, that would as bad as kirbz
But since its back and forth 55-45 either way, then call it even.
and lol at 65-35, that would as bad as kirbz
Nah, Jerm is a good TL (the best? not sure; don't keep up), and I think he legitimately thinks that.
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Exactly. The match depends on who gains the momentum and control over the match. Both of us have options for any situation that happens. We're equal, and the ratios tip toward the better player.
50:50, Shiekant.
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
Stages help here as wll. BF we are up and FD they are up. Too close to call.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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Nah, that's an old theory that just continued on, for whatever reason... a few of us kinda stood against the idea of it, and were laughed at, at first, but then it caught on. ZSS ain't so tough.
that's all fair... It would mainly be used only against the boomerang, or to avoid arrows, really.. nothing spammable.
Very true, but Fox can land kill moves off of combos from both Dair and Nair, which is something that Tink doesn't have... Overall, it's about even killing-wise, but I give Fox an ever-so-small advantage.
Fox will not be recovering with illusion at eye level saying "Zair me!!". He has the options to always recovery, and you are stuck trying to guess it out.
Nah, I stated before that neither player should really be gimping the other... both have options here, and except for extreme circumstances, it won't happen in either case.[/QUOTE]
Well, it does... but what, in the match, would give TL such an advantage?
copacetic
Smash Journeyman
Well like any "serious tournament player", the TL player can alt MK, which I think brings it up to that ratio. Barring that, I don't really see any way for this to be anything but 50-50.
MJG
Smash Hero
Lol...
Do any of the toonlink's even second MK? We are all true and loyal Hero's of Time! *gayness*
*coughcoughDTLcoughcough*
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Toon Link is the Hero of the Winds.
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
I freakin' LUL'D.
koing
Smash Cadet
get out of this board you all dont even main toon link
OniTheWolf
Smash Journeyman
I'd say we have a bit of an edge. Maybe 55-45 or 50-50 at Best.
Sure, Fox can relfect projectiles, but half the time, the projectiles he reflects are arrow cancels (Don't travel that far after reflected) and sometimes boomerangs. At the very least, a decent Tink, maybe below average (lolmyself), should frequently have a bomb in hand. Similar to the MK match up, you wanna keep the opponnent at somewhat of a mid way distance. SH Bomb pull Arrow cancel to JC forward toss or SH Toss into Going forward ZAir. Our BAir ***** fox. we can set up for some early strings (Maybe SH BAir SHBAir UTilt Jab 1 to Grab to DThrow? Depends on opponent's DI.) Our DSmash at low percents by the edge can also screw fox somewhat over and leave him in a gimpable state. We can combo off of our bombs, and always kill with a USmash/FSmash when necessary, or anticipate an illusion and kill with FAir off stage.
Fox...he's made of good stuff, too...
That DAir is ****. Half the time, if they DAir, they'll DAir into a Shine or UTilt, (seriously, I hate that ****ed UTilt, It's second on my list of annoying next to Snake's UTilt.) As kill moves, expect a DAir into USmash or DSmash (don't forget to powershield.) That Blaster is annoying, It racks up decent damage out of a SH. Fox's NAir is also somewhat pretty good, and I believe his pivot grab range is too. Fox's killing move in the air will be UAir, he control's the sair space as long as your in UAir range og him at a high %. Off stage, his recovery can sometimes get annoying. Shine Shine Shine to illusion. If you anticipate to early, they can stop their shine (presume they haven't used theis second jump) and can do a rising FAir (possibly hit us if we try to hit them) and go for a Fire Fox. Watch out for an offstage shine. I can't tell you how many times I've been careless off stage with a fox (my first few times fighting one of course) and have gotten my *** shine spiked. Also, watch for BAir edgeguarding off stage. His jabs are decent, and his Up Smash kills us before 100%.
Keeping all of this in mnid...we have only a slight advantage (thanks BAir, gimping, ZAir, and bombs) I stand by 55-45 Toon Link.
Sure, Fox can relfect projectiles, but half the time, the projectiles he reflects are arrow cancels (Don't travel that far after reflected) and sometimes boomerangs. At the very least, a decent Tink, maybe below average (lolmyself), should frequently have a bomb in hand. Similar to the MK match up, you wanna keep the opponnent at somewhat of a mid way distance. SH Bomb pull Arrow cancel to JC forward toss or SH Toss into Going forward ZAir. Our BAir ***** fox. we can set up for some early strings (Maybe SH BAir SHBAir UTilt Jab 1 to Grab to DThrow? Depends on opponent's DI.) Our DSmash at low percents by the edge can also screw fox somewhat over and leave him in a gimpable state. We can combo off of our bombs, and always kill with a USmash/FSmash when necessary, or anticipate an illusion and kill with FAir off stage.
Fox...he's made of good stuff, too...
That DAir is ****. Half the time, if they DAir, they'll DAir into a Shine or UTilt, (seriously, I hate that ****ed UTilt, It's second on my list of annoying next to Snake's UTilt.) As kill moves, expect a DAir into USmash or DSmash (don't forget to powershield.) That Blaster is annoying, It racks up decent damage out of a SH. Fox's NAir is also somewhat pretty good, and I believe his pivot grab range is too. Fox's killing move in the air will be UAir, he control's the sair space as long as your in UAir range og him at a high %. Off stage, his recovery can sometimes get annoying. Shine Shine Shine to illusion. If you anticipate to early, they can stop their shine (presume they haven't used theis second jump) and can do a rising FAir (possibly hit us if we try to hit them) and go for a Fire Fox. Watch out for an offstage shine. I can't tell you how many times I've been careless off stage with a fox (my first few times fighting one of course) and have gotten my *** shine spiked. Also, watch for BAir edgeguarding off stage. His jabs are decent, and his Up Smash kills us before 100%.
Keeping all of this in mnid...we have only a slight advantage (thanks BAir, gimping, ZAir, and bombs) I stand by 55-45 Toon Link.
Radori Nighthawk
Smash Apprentice
.......We've been found out.get out of this board you all dont even main toon link
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
How do u know I main mk? D:
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Thank you for contributing to our matchup discussion. You don't main Toon Link either. <_<get out of this board you all dont even main toon link
Oops, meant to say 65/35 if they dont combo into eachother.
And, I dont see how he can kill. No good set ups.
Fenrir VII
Smash Master
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- 3,506
but they do.
Fox has combos from both Nair and Dair into usmash. Nair is safe on shield, and dair is safe behind shield.
Bair autocancels, and is safe on shield, and would kill around 130...
And since Dair is a long-lasting multi-hit attack, and combos into a kill move that'll kill you before 100%, any guessed roll or dodge... or any miss on your part could result in a kill...
Also, I mentioned before that if Fox gets a good spacing on dash shield, he can usmash OoS for the kill...
I personally feel that Fox has some of the better kill setups of anybody in the game, so I'm a bit surprised that you say that.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
55-45 Tink
Straight forward MU is straight forward
He's annoying to fight, but Zair>nair true combo yes so
We can't gimp him.
Watch out for shine when recovering.
Pretty even
edit: just read through the thread
Jerm...really?...
LOL MJGJGHL: Yeah...I don't always go Tink...but...I always at least start as him...He just gets kinda boring after awhile...
Unlike Samus...I ****ing love playing as Samus...that's off topic. MK is off topic too. He's fun to play as. So is Marf. **** grammar. I don't feel. Like gr.amarsd
Straight forward MU is straight forward
He's annoying to fight, but Zair>nair true combo yes so
We can't gimp him.
Watch out for shine when recovering.
Pretty even
edit: just read through the thread
Jerm...really?...
LOL MJGJGHL: Yeah...I don't always go Tink...but...I always at least start as him...He just gets kinda boring after awhile...
Unlike Samus...I ****ing love playing as Samus...that's off topic. MK is off topic too. He's fun to play as. So is Marf. **** grammar. I don't feel. Like gr.amarsd
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
I only like Smashville. IDK why.
**** all others stages.
That's what you were asking.
**** all others stages.
That's what you were asking.
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- 10,050
For stages, we want to ban/stage strike Final Destination.
We can counterpick Lylat, or any other neutral, just not FD.