How to deal with/punish Discussing MK's Shuttleloop

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 12, 2009

Well I thought I'd make this because I want to get general feel of how other Wario's handle certain moves from the opponents and punish them. I'm not sure if I'm sure if this has been done already but if it hasn't I'll look forward to yall input. If this has been done already then just close this and link me to a similar thread. All the images I'm gathering are from the respective character boards. I'll update t he first post depnding on the response and feed back this generates. I hope it can get real in Depth.

Snake's Ftilt

Snake ftilt hit's on frame four.
Does 21 damage when fresh.
Crazy disjointed.

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

Snakes ftilt is very fist hit's very hard and is extremely hard to punish. With that in mind the options you have to punish him are very limited. The first hit you can shield or spotdodge the hit. If you shield the first hit you can grab inbetween the first and second hit in order to punish. If you spotdodge the first hit it becomes risky because you can get hit with the second one if he changes the timing up. If by some chance you do get hit you can SDI towards Snake and avoid the second hit. If you shielded the first hit you can spotdodge the second hit and fsmash or grab in order to punish him. You can also shield the second one but the chances off punishing after the second hit is shielded becomes drastically reduced.

MK's Nado

MK's Nado
Multi hit
High Priority
Is a ***** on shields

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

MK's nado is a multi hit move has a lot of priority and can be hard to punish. It's also a ***** on shields. You gotta make sure you tilt the shield up when shielding the move so that you don't get swept up into the move. Once the move is shield the move becomes harder to the punish because the MK player will try to get as far away as possible to avoid any punishment. If he does that then there's a cahnce of being able to DACUS and punish him. When MK is approaching you with nado you have a couple of moves that can break it while you're on the ground. Those moves are ftilt and fsmash. Ftilt having the more range of the two but also has a lot of start up. Depending on spacing and your reaction will depend on which is the best to respond with. Then when you're in the air you can break the nado with your dair if you dair the center of it. You can also air dodge away and use Wario's superior aerial movement to avoid it. If you shield tilt the shield upwards and the grab you should be able to grab MK out of his shield. You can also bite him out of nado very risky but is just another option to have.

Falco Laser

Falco's lasers
Fired twice in a short hop
Can be shot silently
Can make approcahing extremely difficult
He has a lot of options after lasers

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

This move is tricky to deal with because it's a projectile and he really isn't restricted after using it and most likely the falco play will run away as you close in. To get inside you can either use your bike or airdodge. The thing with the air dodge is that they can phantasm and hit you or just reset the previous sitatuion. So learn to adapt to the different timings switch it up and stay sharp.

Diddy Kong's Nanas

Diddy Kong's Nanas
Cause's tripping
Diddy's whole games resolves around his nana's
The more he has out the worst for you.
Is an Item
Can be Glide toss
Can be picked up by both.

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

Diddy Kong's nanas can be a pain to deal with because they cause you to trip.. Tripping is bad. If you get tripped and he has two nana's out theirs a chance of you getting nana locked. Then from their I believe he can grab you then dair spike you. To avoid this we want to limit the amount of nana's he has access to and we don't want to nana's on the stage at the same time. First you can use bite to get the nana off the stage. I suggest using that only at low percentages because the lag after eating a nana. Use with caution but it can be used at times. Other ways of getting the nana's is air dodge to pick them up. You can air dodge to the ground to pick up nana's then immediately glide toss a nana once it's picked up. If you shield the initial nana throw you can then jump and air dodge to catch the nana again. Or you could simply hold onto the nana once you pick it up. Doing this may not seem to much but you are limiting his options this also gives you more options since you can now play mind games with the nana's. Be sure to know how to glide toss and Z drop.

DeDeDe's Grab

King DeDeDe's Standing Grab

King DeDeDe's Pivot grab

DeDeDe's Grab

Longest non thether grab ran.
CG with the down throw.
Has some sort of edge infinite I believe.

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

Look at the range on his grab. Learn the range memorize it know. The better you know how far his grab range is the better chance you have of avoiding it. Proper spacing goes along way when avoid this move. Weaving in and out of aerials or just simply jumping towards him then double jump away from him. Your bite can beat his grab only if you're biting from the air and coming down on him. Also this isn't going to help you avoid the grab but just a heads up for if/when you do get grab. Try not play a little close to the edge of the stage. Give your self a bit off room from the edge so that if you do get grabbed he can only dthrow you once or go for a grab release. Space your fairs and dairs well and limit the amount of stage he has to CG you.

Marth's Fair

Marth's Fair
Marth's fastest aerial
Auto Cancels
A lot of range
2 can be done in a SH
Can camp Fairs

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

PhantomX said:
Best way is learn to space for Marth's fair + movement. If you have a feel for that, should the top half of his swing miss you, you can poke him with fairs or nairs or bairs as he's finishing the low part of his swing.

bassem6 said:
Dash forward then powershield or grab. Or OOS fair after he does it once.

Ice Climbers Dsynched

Ice Climbers Dsynched

Once dsynched their basically 2 characters
one can do blizzard while another does uair etc etc

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

Padô said:
1-) Stay above a platform.
2-) Sheild their Uair
3-) Nair OoS
4-) Split Nana from Popo
5-) ???
6-) Profit.

Gichan said:
Yes, Wario does own ICs. I mean, if we get grabbed, well it happens. But overall, that is some good info, dair is beast against them. We could also easily apply pressure off stage with fairs.

But one thing Wario mains must try not to do, don't bike the blizzard, they are always short hopping and it will always go through the bike, then we get owned.

Things to watch out for;

SDI that squall to the left or right (depending on the direction it is coming), if one of them is squalling it is a set-up for a grab.

SDI the blizzard up as well since they may be able to grab you off the blizzard with the other climber.

SDI the ice block in a footstool chain grab to the opposite side of where the block is hitting, Wario will cover more distance on the ground therefore less chain time or even a chance to get out at high percents. Alt throws, you're ****ed., but Wario is one of those chars that are very hard to cg.

Watch for the dtilt near the edge, it sends you diagonally towards your death, lol, sucks to be hit by it.

Uair goes through all of our ****, don't even try to approach with dairs from above, trust me, in this matchup uair>Wario. Overall, their hammers have a **** load of priority, so just concentrate on aircamping or separating them.

Most of the time, when counterpicking, if you find that you cannot handle the ICs, counter to a gay stage like Brinstar or something, they will probably switch to a secondary (most likely MK, they all just seem to have one), but if you find you can handle, take them to something like BF or frigate where you can air camp easily and most importantly, make them stick to ICs.

What else...BF is preference based. Some Warios may have a harder time on BF then others, it all depends on how you can handle that uair. Platforms really help IC's uair.

Oh, and tires kinda suck in this matchup, their blizzard and iceblock get the tire out of the way easily. And attempting to pick up a bike when they are near is dangerous, it could lead to a grab.

This was an old post from Morphed Chaos' matchup guide. I was too lazy to type it again but this is still decent. I use to play with Ambrose all the **** time before he quit brawl so I know it pretty well.

Btw, when they desync, and you predict when they'll go for the pivot-iceblock to blizzard desync, it is a a free hit/waft. Don't camp too long, Wario can actually approach ICs a lot of the times.

Most said advice; when nana is going back to popo, free waft or fsmash.

toobusytocare said:
I always SDI up to try and land on top of one of the ice blocks because it makes you instantly stand up.

also you can buffer struggles so if you know you're about to get grabbed, start struggling and you can break out out instantly. This is especially useful if they cant do the normal CG and have to hobble (footstool) CG, because hobbling is slow and in general bad.

Unfortunately all good IC can do the backthrow>dthrow CG on Wario :\

G&W bair

G&W's Bair
Multi hit move
Eat shields
a lot of range
a lot of priority
Last a long time

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

Lord Chair said:
When spaced well on your shield, you will not be able to punish it. You can only try to predict what they are going to do next. Keep this in mind throughout the matchup as it counts for most of G&W's moves.

Don't use spotdodge as much against G&W, if at all. Most of his hitboxes, including bair, are lasting. So long as you keep moving you should be able to prevent getting hit by bair.

Of course you can SDI it and punish accordingly, but it takes practice.

It is also possible to try and trade hits by using either fsmash (SA frames of course) or ftilt, you'll be trading 14-19% with 3%, which is quite the nice trade-off.

Remember that the turtle's range is almost completely horizontal, with a slight downward curve. This means that you can still space around it with dair, uair and even a falling fair from a upwards diagonal approach.

Try not to punish the landing lag, whiffed turtles are still safe and can be used as a bait. Don't fall for it.

Tip: When the turtle is not spaced well you can shieldgrab between the last and second to last hit to prevent the chance (small though it may be) of getting shieldpoked by just that one last hit. Of course, you can also shieldgrab it just after the last hit if you're not sure on your timing capabilities.

Padô said:
The best to punish it is to predict the bair than use our aerial mobility to punish it, like jumping the attack and punish GWs lack of vertical hitbox with uair or nair, I'm using uairs since its 17% which is around 2/10 of a GWs stock.

PhantomX said:
The way you have to SDI depends entirely on how they are moving as the bair hits. If they are approaching you with bair, you SDI towards/through them and up (usually they do falling bairs to capitalize on that ground hitbox it has that is super gay). If they are retreating it and it's spaced at the turtle's head, just back off or take that one hit, if they're rising, you want to SDI it down.

If they bair and don't autocancel it in the air and you SDI out you can waft/nair/upair w/o trouble.

Kirby's Bair

Kirby's Bair

Fast aerial
Auto Cancels
High Priority
Good range

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

Humpy Thrashabout said:
If the kirby spaces correctly you can't shield grab it. I also can't see being able to Uair through it because it's pretty disjointed and a good kirby always retreats it. It's a pretty effective WOP due to Wario's lack of range. The only things I've used to beat it are approaching from above with a full hopped aerial or stutter stepping a Fsmash and SAing his hitbox.

It definitely isn't as good as D3's, but it isn't as easy as shield grab/Uair. To me the key to beating the move isn't to actually beat the move, but to make them feel like they don't need to camp it. It's a lot like playing a ROB, they are capable of camping very well, but they only resort to hardcore camping when they are losing pretty bad.

Since I saw that thing that DMG posted about the delayed dash grab I've been thinking I could, from a dash, PS it then do the delay dash grab, but I haven't gotten to play my friend's kirby yet to try it. Will the ending of the dash animation happen when you PS?

PhantomX said:
You can't get that little extra dash grab boost if you end the dash with a shield. You can powershield and grab/punish Kirby out of bair... best way is to just slowly push him towards the edge of the stage so he doesn't have as much room to maneuver safely.

Masky said:
You could also pivot grab his bair if he does it low enough... but that's just if you want to show off

Toon Link's Zair/Bair/Jectiles

Toon Link's Zair/Bair/Jectiles

TLink's Zair
Long range
Auto cancels
can combo into other moves
Can be used immediately after air dodges

Tlin's Bair
Fast aerial
decent range
Can combo into itself
Can make approaching difficult.

Tlink's jectiles
Arrow can be auto canceled (Quick Draw)
Two in a short hop

Bomb's
some silly dsmash gimmick on the edge.of a stage

Boomerangs
Can be angeled up or down.

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

JNig said:
I agree with Bassem: TL's bair/zair/projectiles, which is pretty much TL as a whole.

TL's Bair: I usually try to shield these, because if they hit your shield with one, that's a free Nair, Uair, or waft OoS. Kinda like Marth's fair: When they whiff in front of you, fair poke. Is there a certain direction we should SDI? I don't think we can do much until the 5th or 6th one.

TL's Zair: If you get hit by one of these, that means they can grab, Nair, or Zair you again. You want to get in close and shield grab.

TL's Projectiles: Arrows are easy to punish, just jump over them and hit them with whatever. The rest, I have no idea what to do about them...especially the boomerang. I jump into them all the time.

PhantomX said:
If they're hitting you with rising bairs and approaching, SDI down and through them. Weird, I know, but generally you always want to SDI in the opposite direction that a character is moving (it's why you SDI thorugh Diddy's Fsmashes and Snake's ftilts)

Padô said:
About Zair I just shield it and Nair OoS. Don't try to shieldgrab cause it's impossible and you are getting a Nair in your face.

Bombs won't explode if you dair/fair/nair/uair em so they are not a big deal, the worst move is the Bair I was DIing it just like PX said, downwards and through TL, this should end his combo and maybe you'll be able to punish him with an Uair or chase him on his fall to the ground for a grab.
Arrows are easily punishable since they got a little delay to execute and they travel slowly making it easily to PS.
Just AirDodge his boomerang specially if TL is going after you. It sets you up to a Nair or a Fair/Bair. CAREFUL WHEN IT IS COMING BACK, I lost a lot of grabs because it got back and hit me while I was pummeling him so If you notice a boomerang coming back Fthrow him asap.

PhantomX said:
Yeah, if the rang is coming from behind you do a bthrow or dthrow, if it's coming from in front, fthrow and try to get it to where TL is swinging in front of you while you're fthrowing. The swing will make him catch the rang while still being thrown.

Snapp. said:
I played ARC last night. And hes the best toon link ive ever seen and i realized what warios problem is, wario moves very well in the air, but toon link is one of the best moving characters in the game.

Its hard to out maneuver any TL strictly because of the options he has vs the options you have.

Peach's Float Shenanigans

Peach's Float Shenanigans

Peach probally has the best air to ground game in the game.
Her aerials auto cancel into quick moves that follow like jab and dsmash.
So it's extremely hard on shields.
Dair eats shield and can be annoying especially if they footstool you
Nair hits on frame 3
Bair can be problematic also.

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

Try to pick up on the peach players patterns. If a peach dairs your shield do not spot dodge that will lead to you getting punished. Also you have to remember her Air to ground game is Virtually lagless so she can go from fair > jab. If she does this just shield it. However, you also have to watch o see if she cancels the jab and goes for a grab. You should be able to spot dodge the grab and then punish afterwards. Try not to be in your shield she has a lot of shield pressure moves but can't really come close to you in the air. Our Fair is faster than here which is good. Her air dodge is terrible so she will most likely not be using that. Be carreful or bairs they can be problematic.

MK's Dair

MK's dair

Long range
Can be used for spacing or gimps
Can combo into it self.
Very quick move.

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

PhantomX said:
Wario can beat out MK's dair. Every jump MK does gives him less height than the one before it, and the move is punishable on the side that it's starting from (he does a sweep from one side to the next). If you wait for him to be at a good height, you can hit him after his swing has passed you w/ upair, waft, nair if he's low enough, or utilt/upsmash if he's falling into you. UTILT always trades hits w/ dair anyway, from what I've seen.

People need to realize that the trick to dealing w/ most aerial walls is to wait for them on the ground/do things from the ground, lol.

PhantomX said:
That's not true, Wario can do plenty against MK's dair. Every next jump MK does will give him less height than his previous one, meaning he's slowly descending. If you wait for him to be w/in SH/FH aerial range, you can punish him. In order to punish MK's dair you want to get on the side of him WHERE THE MOVE starts, as he has to finish the sweeping animation before he can do anything else (it's also shorter ranged on that side). If you do this and he's close enough, there are enough frames to upair/waft/nair him. From what I've noticed, utilt will also at least always trade hits with the move, and the last hit of upsmash can beat it too (these are good if they're starting to fall into you/are close to the ground.

What people haven't realized yet is that the big trick to beating all these aerial walls that people like to throw out, is to approach them from the ground. If they start dairing, you can crawl/run under them if you need to in order to get to the short side. If they try to turn around, that's extra frames for you to do things.

The real nuisances in this matchup are nair and grounded up b. The former beats out pretty much everything during the point of it's biggest hitbox, w/ the exception of our dair's disjointed hitbox. We can also punish their nair oos w/ a perfect shield, but I haven't really found anything else. Grounded UP B is just **** tastic b/c it covers the entire area that Wario approaches from while giving invinciblity. I've found that short of baiting/airdodging/shielding it, we can't do anything, and they can just hit us out of moves w/ it. Unless I'm ******** and jump into things, this is the move everyone kills me with. If they whiff it though, they get *****.

Masky said:
You can dair MK out of his grounded shuttle loop if you hit him in the middle of the move and you're "inside" the shuttle loop, but obviously that's not the most reliable thing in the world, a lot of times if you're not perfect you'll trade hits. There's also another way I've been thinking about that would in theory let you never get hit by shuttle loop the vast majority of the time even if you're in its range, but I don't want to elaborate on it yet since I haven't been able to test it out yet with actual people to see how difficult it is

Also, if we're talking about MK's dair, it is punishable on shield by Wario even if MK does a rising dair. You can hit him with fair/nair and maybe even waft probably now that i think about it (<3 frame data)

Padô said:
I never try to punish MK dair within his first jumps, he is too high and the time for a good reponse to our attacks are just larger. Last time I tried to punish MKs dair while he was too high was when Affinity came here and he just out prioritized my waft with another dair and said: "Wasn't that supposed to have super armor frames?" and I: "...".
If timed correctly we can punish it with Uair speacially, for 17% but if you miss it when he is too high you are getting another dair on your face or maybe a FF'd Nair.
When MK is around his 4th jump I try to jump higher than him and Dair it sometimes, If the player gets used he's using his last jump do hit you with Uair and I always airdodge through and wait MK to land and punish with a grab or something.
Sometimes the Mk will fall a little from his 2nd jump and perform a rising Dair on his 3rd jump, when this happens you are able to poke him with nair/fair as said before.

Overswarm said:
Wait for 3rd jump, jump and u-air. I easily beat Blue Rogue with just punishing him for trying to u-air properly. 30 seconds after I tell him this? U-AIR U-AIR U-AIR U-AIR. Blue Rogue learns too fast. :[

Also, don't double jump near MK. It's a free nado 100% of the time. You can dair through the center if MK mispaces it... but he won't.

That's about all I know about the matchup lol

MalcolmM said:
Just throwing out another option...

U can entirely wait the succession of dairs out and camp MKs landing. It's not hard to do if you consider options when playing. He dairs u and moves in a direction...he can't dair you again until he falls. So he taps your shield and you chase him and then you spotdodge his obvious next attempt on your shield and you chase him and you do this until he begins to descend a bit too low to dair. Then you chase him and angle your shield up because a nado may be on the way. Punish nado falling aerial or attempt to airdodge ftilt with Grab/Fsmash/Dacus and do that until they come up with something else.

Falco Phantasm

Falco Phantasm

Can be canceled at 3 different points in the move.
Can be done immediately after a jump to cancel landing lag.
Move spikes (although the speak is very weak) or sends you straight into the ground.
Has invincibility frames in the first half of the move.

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

Lord Chair said:
Proactive wall of text:

How Phantasm works: It can be canceled as you should know, though for offensive purposes this is rarely done. The first half of the Phantasm itself (the teleport) consists of invincibility frames, don't try to interrupt Falco within about his ftilt range, because he can't be damage at that point. Of course he has no invincibility during the startup frames, feel free to nag him there.

Phantasm is most often used when Falco is somewhat in control, this usually means he is fully capable of spamming SHDL without any fear of his opponent bursting his way through it. When he does feel threatened, however, the logical response is to Phantasm away. Sometimes this is done when Falco feels that his opponent is getting impatient and will try to just shield approach and grab through the lasers, shielding in front of Falco just outside of grab range usually means a Phantasm.

Of course higher-level Falco players will know that you know this, and will mix it up carefully enough. The deal is pretty much to either bait a Phantasm while not getting hit by lasers (which is easy enough for Wario to do), or not to allow Falco to get to it.

Option 1 takes more patience but may pay off, a predicted Phantasm means that Wario can space away to where the Phantasm will finish, powershield it and punish with nair/bair/dair/fsmash/etc. Whenever you expect a Phantasm but aren't sure whether or not you can space all the way back (or you just find the chance to be rather high, yet not guaranteed ie 20-50%) you can simply nair or dair way out of Falco's range. If Falco decides to Phantasm he will eat a weak hit of the nair or the last hits of dair, and he will be in a rather silly situation, one in Wario's advantage. When in an on-stage situation it is not probably you can catch Falco in the startup frames, as he'll usually be too far away.

Option 2 is playing aggressively and keeping control of the match, and not practical unless you can deal with option 1 as well.

The only other practical situation for Falco to Phantasm is when he's offstage or on the ledge and wants to get back to where his character design does, in fact, work (for the slow people among us: that's onstage). Aside of the standard ledge options, Falco is blessed with Phantasm. If you expect a Phantasm you can beat it (non-canceled) with random dair/nair, or simply fairing Falco in the startup frames and practically instantly gimping him (since he has lost his DJ). Don't try to just shield near the edge, that doesn't quite work since his ledge roll is fast enough to just get away with it. You should space just outside his ledge attack range, stay shorthopped and always be wary of Phantasm. It makes ledgeguarding a bit more difficult, but then again it's very much capable of being dealt with. Beware of Phantasm cancels to catch you off-guard.

Oh if for some reason you find yourself on a stage like frigate, in which you can sometimes get a guaranteed non-ledge-sweetspotting Phantasm, dsmash is usually the best choice to interrupt it with, since Falco will probably bounce back into a situation he can't quite recover from. Same but less so with nair only less humiliating ^^

edit: If I miss anything or if there are any questions, just add/ask.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
Zoning with Phantasm.

From my experience some falco like to use their phantasm as you approach them. If they do SHDL and you air dodge typically a phantasm will follow. It's used as an escape tool most likely and used for frame traps and to close distance. Also I believe that the hardest time to deal with phantasm is while they're onstage since it has the most potential.

Falco recovering with Phantasm.

This to me is when he's must vulnerable. Depending on your distance from him you can normally fair or nair him out of the move while on start up. If you're not close enough you can wait on stage if the falco is sloppy you can punish however, I wouldn't count on that with better falcos but who knows mistakes do happen but don't bank on it. More than likely they will cancel the phantasm and just grab the ledge.

Ledge Phantasm

Falco on the ledge he can either phantasm on the stage or into the ledge. This becomes tricky because once again based on your distance your opportunity to punish can be eliminated and he can actually go from a bad position to a good one. You get too close to the ledge he'll phantasm past you too far away he'll cancel and land safely.

You can fair/ nair them out of their phantasm. As well as bite them out of the second half of the phantasm risky may not be worth it. If they mess up their phantasm or you predict where they will cancel uair/fsmash punish hard.

If anyone has anything to add commment or if something is wrong then let me know.

Snake's Nair

Snake's nair
Four hit's
The strongest hit being the last one.
Can be auto canceled from a full hop.

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

Kit Cal-N said:
If he's going up, DI down.
If he's going down, DI up.
If he hits you on his peak, DI up.
In any situation, you can bike out of it INTO him.

Kit Cal-N said:
If you are being hit by it, you can press over-B. The first few hits don't have enough hit-stun to prevent and do too little damage to knock you off your bike. You'll take about 8% then hit him with your bike.

A Snake can't wall with his nair. He has to full-hop it to get the auto-cancel, and if he doesn't he's going to land with a ton of lag. He can keep full-hopping nair, but he has better options.
The only times he really should be using it is if you're approaching with a full-hop attack from a distance or a grab release. You can bait a nair by full hopping towards him, but by double jumping, fast falling, or pulling away before it would connect. A double jump lets you punish with any aerial.
It's not very disjointed, but it will beat any aerial you throw at it from the front. It's got very little range on its back, bottom, or top. Because of it's range, you'll want to SDI through him.

PhantomX said:
You CAN fair him, but not if you're being hit. It's hard to space as well b/c his kicks far outrange yours. If you can manage to get underneath him, you can always bite him out of it from below.

Gichan said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hpn8X9uhKIM

You could as it doesn't reach too much under him but you gotta be fast about it.

Snake's nair is very effective against Wario when he knows we are trying to approach from high up. If the Snake is nairing a lot and you happen to get hit by a few of them it is a sign that you have to change your patterns because he is really just reading you, very similar to a metaknight using fair to stop your high approaches. Kit did suggest an amazing approach to this and it is to bait the nair by approaching them with a full hop because they are waiting for that hop. So then save the double jump or move away and punish. That is a good way to solve that problem.

Or like PX said, we can move quickly behind them or under them and bite. depending on where you are located when they are coming. I usually go for bite but I have found that moving behind them as they fall and then nair is pretty effective.

Do not try to punish them after they naired if you are far away (and if they auto cancelled it). It looks like we could punish it but then we eat a forward tilt. That is why if we are thinking about SDIng the nair, we should always SDI to get behind them because we are just a bit apart from them and can punish it. If we SDI away, we do receive less damage, but we also put ourselves in a situation where we can't really punish it unless we dash attack (?).

Overall, we really just have to watch out for how disjointed it is. Watch that use of your double jump so you don't find yuorself hit by that nair. And try to see when they like to use it most like one example being what legendary asked. He probably notices a Snake player he plays who constantly nairs after recovery (quite common sometimes) and wants to know what to do about it. So exploit those patterns.

Rob's Bair/Nair

Rob's Bair/Nair

Slow
Laggy
Lot of start up lag

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

Gichan said:
Okay, ROB's nair is so **** annoying. But I find that fairs are so effective against it. If you predict them doing it, do a quick fair it'll hit before the nair hitbox comes out. Thing is with these moves is that there is a lot of starting lag, but almost no lag at the end of the move so you need to see if you can hit it before it hits you.

An effective way to play against ROB is to jump around the lasers and bite the gyro when far. As you get closer, throw random fairs to clash with their fair or to hit them if they try to nair If you see them using a lot of bairs just keep jumping around near them and hit where they are going to land with a dair or even a fair (even if you land on the ground non-cancelled, just hit them). The thing is, don't challenge the bair!! no point, just don't get hit by it so they don't use it anymore. I played Holy quite a bit, and as long as I don't get hit by his bair he starts to rely more on fair or nair and that is much easier to deal with.

the only thing I hate about nair is that I can't uthrow to uair because it seems to nair hitbox will ALWAYS come out before my uair, don't know how...

Gichan said:
yeah you can legendary, that is true. I always forget to use my fart out of shield for some fail reason.

Pwneroni said:
ROB's Nair has a looong lasting hitbox, but Gichan is right. If you can hit the robot before it comes out, his plans are foiled.

The Bair on the other hand, is a *****. It has a faster startup, and his hitbox is his whole body. It also lasts FOREVER, and is very powerful. Just don't be near him when he uses it, because it lasts longer than airdodges.

Padô said:
BAir:

Just do try to SH AirDodge > Grab ir you are getting hit by the strange long-lasting hitbox this move have (ROBs entire body), I tried to rad the move and poke it with FAir but I traded hits sometimes which put us on disadvantage (12% for 7%). I'd suggest to Dash > Shield than poke with FAir or NAir OoS. Never try to shield grab too I got hit sometimes by the weird hitbox stated above. Oh yea, you can punish it from above too like G&W BAir, if you predict it correctly DJ Dair it.

NAir:

NEVER TRY TO AIRDODGE THROUGH IT YOU WILL BE KO'D ON HIGH %s and will get punished on lower %s as usual, just use your aerial mobility to get away from it. Most of the ROBs are wasting this aerial to rack % while you are in the air so it won't be that useful to KO unless they use it on you when you are REALLY high on the air.
A good ROB wont use this on SH if this happens shieldgrab it FAST, if you don't do this FAST you get jabs on your face. If the ROB use it during his UpB get under him and punish with Uair after the complete hitbox has came out, the timing to poke it with FAir is very restrict I wouldn't recommend you to do that so...

MK's Shuttleloop

MK's Shuttleloop

Invcinble frames 5-7
hits on frame 8
Has two hits

How do you deal with it? Avoid the move? Punish the move?

PhantomX · Nov 12, 2009

Aside from not getting hit by it altogether you have a couple options. Perfect shield > grab it, shield first hit, spotdodge second > grab, if they don't delay it you can spotdodge both hits > grab/fsmash. If they hit you you can SDI through the first hit into punishes or at least avoiding the second large chunk of damage.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 12, 2009

PhantomX said:
Aside from not getting hit by it altogether you have a couple options. Perfect shield > grab it, shield first hit, spotdodge second > grab, if they don't delay it you can spotdodge both hits > grab/fsmash. If they hit you you can SDI through the first hit into punishes or at least avoiding the second large chunk of damage.

You can SDI the first hit? Towards or away from him?

PhantomX · Nov 12, 2009

Towards him. Since he's moving towards you you can go through him and pop out the other side.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 12, 2009

PhantomX said:
Towards him. Since he's moving towards you you can go through him and pop out the other side.

Ah I see, that does make sense. Also just out of curiosity is it good to try SHAD against ftilt happy snakes ? You can't punish with any aerial ? Like fair dair or nair ?

Masky · Nov 12, 2009

..........

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 12, 2009

Masky said:
if only Wario had some kind of protective bubble with which he could protect himself from snake's ftilt... but alas he doesn't... and we have no choice to just get hit by it

Okay so after you shield how do you respond?

PhantomX · Nov 12, 2009

Usually grab, but you have to avoid the second hit, otherwise you don't really get to do anything.

Dynomite · Nov 12, 2009

i still havnt gotten into the habit of this but shield the first hit spotdodge the next hit.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 12, 2009

So basically

Shield the first hit
Spot dodge the second hit.
SDI the first hit through snake.

Punish with
Fsmash
Grab

right? If the second hit hit's your shield you'll be pushed out of range to punish?

PhantomX · Nov 12, 2009

it doesn't have much lag after it so odds are he can jab or ftilt you again before you can do anything.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 12, 2009

PhantomX said:
it doesn't have much lag after it so odds are he can jab or ftilt you again before you can do anything.

I know that's why I want to know how to deal with and punish this move =/.

Ragnar0k · Nov 13, 2009

Full jump OoS dair him.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 13, 2009

Ragnar0k said:
Full jump OoS dair him.

Is this before or after the second hit ? Is the dair FF?

Ragnar0k · Nov 13, 2009

If you shield them both just full jump an immediate dair then you can follow up however you want. Double jump away or hit him with another aerial or bite.

Dynomite · Nov 13, 2009

Ragnar0k said:
If you shield them both just full jump an immediate dair then you can follow up however you want. Double jump away or hit him with another aerial or bite.

wont work, snake can up tilt you after you shield the 2nd Ftilt. your best bet is to shield the first hit, spot dodge the 2nd hit then grab or even bite. i guess it depends on their health. bite can do some damage and set up for other stuff. fthrow does around 11, fsmash can kill. w/e u feel like you have options.

Corrupted · Nov 13, 2009

Its basic reading frame data. With good reactions, wario can drop shield ftilt/stutter step fsmash. SH dair/fair OoS works too.

Padô · Nov 13, 2009

A deep sadness endarks my heart to know that a thread like this got so much hype and discussion while we could discuss the same thing, if this is the most important snake issue, on the Matchup discussion thread.
But whatever, his hits are SDIable but you gotta have very good reflexes if the Snake executes Ftilt fast.
But Ftilt gets a little predictable most of the time

PhantomX · Nov 13, 2009

Pado, it's easier to discuss something small and particular compared to something as broad as a matchup, lol.

Quik17 · Nov 13, 2009

Usually I shield both hits and then grab them

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 13, 2009

Alright MK's nado now. discuss.

bassem6 · Nov 14, 2009

You can hit him with a dair if you aim it in the eye of the tornado. You can airdodge and use wario's airspeed to just get away from it (if they dont predict which way you go). You can f-tilt it. You can angle your sheild upwards then if he stays close to you when the move ends, you can grab. If he tries to land far from you, you can dacus. My favorite thing to do is try and break it with an f-smash. It really isnt too hard once you get the timing down and its like a fun little mini game haha.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 14, 2009

Can you waft nado?

toobusytocare · Nov 14, 2009

fsmash and dair are the best if you're trying to beat it, otherwise tilt your shield up or run away

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 14, 2009

With fsmash do you have to time the SA frames so you don't get swept up into the nado?

Does it matter if ftilt is angeled?

Dynomite · Nov 14, 2009

2 best ways that dont fail me much are:

shield tilted up block all of it then run up to them and grab (they will try to dsmash when you are getting close to keep that inmind, you can shield that first then get a grab or even a fart!)

double jump dair the middle of the tornado.

^^ servers me well against mks.
if they are coming towards you, you can also ftilt the tornado (im sure thats already been mentioned)

Masky · Nov 14, 2009

..........

Padô · Nov 14, 2009

Ftilt works pretty well to punish high % nados and predictable nados.

Dair works ok while comingo from above and the MK is expecting an airdodge.

The best way probably is to grab its after execution lag, pummel and throw for 15% damage or if its out range DACUS its lag too.

bassem6 · Nov 14, 2009

you can waft it in the middle I think?? Its way too risky so I wouldnt advise it.

o-Serin-o · Nov 14, 2009

We D3s did this as well. And we only got to like move 10?

EDIT: Do D3's CG or Bair next since that is what ***** you guys in the matchup the most.

toobusytocare · Nov 14, 2009

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
With fsmash do you have to time the SA frames so you don't get swept up into the nado?

Does it matter if ftilt is angeled?

i've always done it with a regular ftilt

and the fsmash isnt too hard to pull of

ChomP · Nov 15, 2009

Wario's bike can go stop the tornado, but I would only do it if you have your bike out on stage already instead of just auto wiping and throwing it at the tornado.

BMX · Nov 15, 2009

How about shielding it?

Ftilt, Fsmash, and Dair beat the nado, except you have to hit MK at the very middle with Dair.

I try to remain unpredictable with my jumps because MKs like to punish jumps with nado.

Dynomite · Nov 15, 2009

ChomP said:
Wario's bike can go stop the tornado, but I would only do it if you have your bike out on stage already instead of just auto wiping and throwing it at the tornado.

to specify, you must THROW the bike. but yes you are right. riding it doesnt do anything. (just to clarify)

rockguy1234 said:
How about shielding it?

Ftilt, Fsmash, and Dair beat the nado, except you have to hit MK at the very middle with Dair.

I try to remain unpredictable with my jumps because MKs like to punish jumps with nado.

fsmash is too risky ide rather go with the Ftilt or dair

BMX · Nov 16, 2009

idk, maybe it's just me, but I can land a perfectly timed fsmash, but it is very situational.

**** nado. -_-

ChomP · Nov 16, 2009

I can never land a fsmash on the nado >.>

toobusytocare · Nov 16, 2009

ftilt has a longish startup so it's only good if you see the tornado coming from a while away

fsmash is superior once you get it down

Dynomite · Nov 16, 2009

toobusytocare said:
ftilt has a longish startup so it's only good if you see the tornado coming from a while away

fsmash is superior once you get it down

usually Ftilt is fresh while most warios find it easier to punish with Fsmash. also, if you are ftilting most mks will try to punish it seeing that the tornado is faster than the winded back punch.

Padô · Nov 16, 2009

Ftilt is the best option IMO after shielding and grabbing.
MK's that get hit by the Ftilt on the nado just make the wrong DI and die because they never expect it.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Nov 16, 2009

First post update now on falco's lasers.

How to deal with/punish Discussing MK's Shuttleloop

Smash Hero

WarioMan

Smash Hero

WarioMan

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Hero

WarioMan

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

WarioMan

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

WarioMan

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

I think 56 nights crazy

Smash Lord

Smash Cadet

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Cadet

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Information

Network