Why y'all aren't getting much better

DMoogle · Nov 26, 2009

Garuda said something interesting to me the other day, and I've given it a bit of thought:

<Garuda> You just do so well and you don't even have to try.

A lot of people have said that they try and try, but just don't seem to get better (Garuda did not say that specifically, and I'm not in a place to judge other specific people). I think the main problem is that they aren't trying to get better; they are just trying to win every match. This is the wrong way to improve their game. 99% of the matches I play, I'm not "trying to win," I'm trying to do different stuff to see what works and what doesn't work, and I let winning come naturally. Most of the time, I have a specific concept or move in mind (e.g. trying to work in x-air into a specific situation at different %s in the **** tent).

This leads to two things: learning when the best times to use certain moves are (i.e. improving one's game), and more interesting (albeit often longer) matches. The end result is a better player, and a more fun game. And it's not just a random theory I have, because I feel like I see the players that improve the most are the ones who aren't just trying to hit their opponents as hard as they can and get them off the ledge as fast as possible.

So next time, instead of grabbing your recovering opponent and throwing him back off and trying to rinse and repeat, try something else, then try to see what you can follow it up with. And it's OK to "play to win" too, particularly when you really want to win a match, such as in a tournament. Hopefully, by the time that comes, you'll be able to know exactly what to do when your default grab or smash or whatever WON'T work.

-A$

Disclaimer: Many of you ARE getting better. This post is primarily for those who feel they aren't, so don't take my "y'all" too literally. Also, I'm a bit sleep deprived, so I apologize if I wasn't crystal clear in some parts.

killa k · Nov 26, 2009

I feel like I'm stuck right now, but I know I'll get past it since this happened before and I got a lot better afterwards. I think my main problem is not using the right attacks at the right time and reading my opponents consistantly.

dch111 · Nov 26, 2009

The thing you mentioned: trying to focus on one new thing each time works wonders. Of course, it means you have to play many games, and it's a lengthy process, but many people's mistakes are to try to improve too much at once. Unfortunately since I don't play online my list of tactics to test is growing faster than I can check them off.

Deleted member · Nov 26, 2009

It is shocking how bad 95% of the ssb64 STILL is

what is more annoying though is that 3% of the top 5% are humongous campers and with the exception of a few campers, playing them simply isn't fun because they are too scared too approach and would rather play 20 minute long matches in order to get the prestige of winning in an online friendly (or that's just the style they play)

so to save myself time I simply ram myself into them and get a high percentage 1 stock victory. This game is terrible sometimes but it's a lot of fun when you and your opponents aren't scared, homo, timid players

--

anyways, its my belief that EVERYBODY (as long as you aren't handicapped) has the potential to become great its just that some don't know the right way to get better or realize what they are doing wrong. You could figure it out yourself like many have but its way faster if you have someone who guides you.

Sensei · Nov 26, 2009

In my personal opinion, I enjoy this game no matter what the gameplay style the player has, as long as they don't do annoying things like pause every 10 seconds or every taunt. Even if they are camping or playing very "homo" like (which there is purely subjective and shouldn't really be categorized as if the player is trying to win) Of course I like to have a fun sometimes and fool around in this game as well and do whatever xP. Anyway, I'm a little drunk right now as well as stuffed from Thanksiving dinner, I think the point I'm trying to make is that every one of you is special and don't forget that.

dch111 · Nov 26, 2009

s2j said:
what is more annoying though is that 3% of the top 5% are humongous campers and with the exception of a few campers, playing them simply isn't fun because they are too scared too approach and would rather play 20 minute long matches in order to get the prestige of winning in an online friendly (or that's just the style they play)

so to save myself time I simply ram myself into them and get a high percentage 1 stock victory. This game is terrible sometimes but it's a lot of fun when you and your opponents aren't scared, homo, timid players

I cannot agree more with this. It's shocking sometimes how effective camping can be in this game. Hardly any fun at all...I hope for attacks clashing with attacks and BIFF and BAM and all that on the box art but really among the friends I know the best who are in 3B really just camp and make this game unenjoyable in their desperation to win. And I can't really openly call them out since there's an implicit "play to win" agreement among us.

Blue Yoshi · Nov 26, 2009

s2j said:
You could figure it out yourself like many have but its way faster if you have someone who guides you.

Then again, one thing I realized while teaching people in person is that although you can teach someone alot of stuff, there's a huge amount that you cannot teach, and that they must figure out themselves. You can't make them think of the game the same way you do... they have to slowly adapt to that level of thinking.

Back to the OP, I do exactly what DMoogle said all the time... even sometimes in serious matches and even tourney matches. I've discovered so much stuff just by doing random stuff that I would never expect to work. Basically, DMoogle is completely right in his post. And if I ever told you I'm not playing seriously or I'm fooling around in the match (or you notice me instantly acting like a noob or do something I never did before), it's because I was doing exactly this. It works.

†¹Ãgøn¥¹† · Nov 26, 2009

Oh wow, actually someone else thinks like me.

Where's Legendary now to see this, rofl.

NixxxoN · Nov 26, 2009

The thing is, play to win AND to have fun. Some players enjoy attacking and some players enjoy being defensive.
The players who work harder and who play well, will end up getting better, and the lame *** players who always go for the easiest stuff will get stuck.

Kefit · Nov 26, 2009

I've been trying to help my friends get better lately, but nothing I do seems to have any effect. They are already relatively good, and I see them try new stuff all the time, but I just can't instill into their heads the mechanics and concepts they need to understand in order to break through the plateau they are on and start rising up to my level. Then again, maybe you are talking about people below this level of skill altogether.

And yeah, campers suck. It's only really effective against my if I have been playing really aggressively for a while, and then my opponent starts camping. I don't think too much when i play most of the time, so it can take me a while to notice things like that. If I start getting too frustrated though then I sometimes just put the controller down and wait to see how long it takes for my opponent to actually approach me. Sometimes it can take an amusingly long amount of time.

Daedatheus · Nov 27, 2009

Dmoogle, I thank you.

I had those exact concepts in my head not long ago, and it's always nice to be reminded.

While I try to implement new stuff where I can, I still focus 100% on the win and in the end of the match might avoid the new thing just because I know I can't do it consistently yet.

Also online makes things harder to do in real matches

Kefit said:
I've been trying to help my friends get better lately, but nothing I do seems to have any effect.

They need to play varying good players, not just yourself

Also, we've never p2p'd, so at some point let's do so and you can "instill" into my head some new "mechanics and concepts"!

JaimeHR · Nov 27, 2009

how do you get better at Smash? I need to know plzzzzzzzz.

SSBPete · Nov 27, 2009

DMoogle your 100% correct and i'm a perfect example. when i first started smash, i started online and i was really noob compared to the rest of the aussie players. i slowly improved and over time i was winning 1 in 4 matchs against most of them. i peaked at this level for ages because i didnt know what to improve. i couldnt 0 to death with any char. i then gave my controller to my friend and started playing consol. because i only play consol with friends and my brother, i dont quite have the same desire to win so i mucked around and did random attacks and stratergies that rarely payed off. after 1 month on consol trying random stuff for laughs i can now 0 to death quite easily with yoshi, falcon and jiggs and i now 3-4 life all my friends who play consol with me. i do play quite a lot now though

Nintendude · Nov 27, 2009

I know some people label me as a camper (looking at you, s2j), especially when I use Samus, but in my defense, I really suck at approaching and properly applying pressure. Every match I play I try to improve my approach and I've been paying such close attention to it recently that I do think I'm making an improvement, but I do wish I was much better. I think I was a better player in the past but went through some long periods where I played too many noobs (in other SSB games) and developed bad habits.

Peek~ · Nov 27, 2009

DMoogle said:
Garuda said something interesting to me the other day, and I've given it a bit of thought:

<Garuda> You just do so well and you don't even have to try.

A lot of people have said that they try and try, but just don't seem to get better (Garuda did not say that specifically, and I'm not in a place to judge). I think the main problem is that they aren't trying to get better; they are just trying to win every match. This is the wrong way to improve their game. 99% of the matches I play, I'm not "trying to win," I'm trying to do different stuff to see what works and what doesn't work, and I let winning come naturally. Most of the time, I have a specific concept or move in mind (e.g. trying to work in x-air into a specific situation at different %s in the **** tent).

This leads to two things: learning when the best times to use certain moves are (i.e. improving one's game), and more interesting (albeit often longer) matches. The end result is a better player, and a more fun game. And it's not just a random theory I have, because I feel like I see the players that improve the most are the ones who aren't just trying to hit their opponents are hard as they can and get them off the ledge as fast as possible.

So next time, instead of grabbing your recovering opponent and throwing him back off and trying to rinse and repeat, try something else, then try to see what you can follow it up with. And it's OK to "play to win" too, particularly when you really want to win a match, such as in a tournament. Hopefully, by the time that comes, you'll be able to know exactly what to do when your default grab or smash or whatever WON'T work.

-A$

Disclaimer: Many of you ARE getting better. This post is primarily for those who feel they aren't, so don't take my "y'all" too literally. Also, I'm a bit sleep deprived, so I apologize if I wasn't crystal clear in some parts.

s2j said:
It is shocking how bad 95% of the ssb64 STILL is

what is more annoying though is that 3% of the top 5% are humongous campers and with the exception of a few campers, playing them simply isn't fun because they are too scared too approach and would rather play 20 minute long matches in order to get the prestige of winning in an online friendly (or that's just the style they play)

so to save myself time I simply ram myself into them and get a high percentage 1 stock victory. This game is terrible sometimes but it's a lot of fun when you and your opponents aren't scared, homo, timid players

--

anyways, its my belief that EVERYBODY (as long as you aren't handicapped) has the potential to become great its just that some don't know the right way to get better or realize what they are doing wrong. You could figure it out yourself like many have but its way faster if you have someone who guides you.

Get out of my head

ciaza · Nov 27, 2009

I generally practise alot of techniques to better myself offline in training mode, and then put them in practise in online matches, if they don't work out against real players I go back to the drawing board and try again. I don't practise random stuff against real players because I also play for the win

.

Lawrencelot · Nov 27, 2009

The main way to improve is just to play against good (better) players. From the Europeans, there are like 3 people or so that are about as good as me, and the rest are just worse than me, of which I can 5-stock the worst (newest) players. Then some weeks ago I played Jaime for the first time and he 5-stocked my Pikachu, with Samus, on Dreamland. !. Others would say Jaime plays a campy Samus, he just waits until I approach and then smashes, I say he teaches me not to approach recklessly and to be careful of the good attacks of a weak character. It just improves my spacing and my play overall, and it makes me improve way faster than when I play people below my skill level.

Although I have to say, when I play people below my skill level I often do random stuff with random characters, and that does make me improve with that character, but yeah in a tourney or something I would only use my main or secondary anyway.

Blue Yoshi · Nov 27, 2009

Probably one of the most important things to learn at high level play is the ability to adapt to different strategies and play styles, as well as being able to read, and predict your opponent's moves (noticing patterns goes here as well). However, this is something that cannot be taught. You must learn this on your own. This is probably the thing that separates the really good players from the good players.

WOTG · Nov 27, 2009

Talent has a lot to do with it. The reason why so many players have been trying to improve their game(even for years), and simply just can not, or keep consistence with it, is simply because they lack the talent(not saying they completely don't have talent).
Any player can improve on their own pace if they dedicate themselves(in ways that was described), doesn't mean they'll all pace at a much higher level. There will always be major skill gaps because of how complex the human anatomy works, that differentiates us as people.

My problem is my consistency. I mess up a lot.
Sometimes I'm randomly doing amazing comboes, while then others I for some reason can't connect comboes for crap. Or, I can do excessive teleports, then next time I can't do it at all, same with other things like Mario's SH Dair Uair, or Fox's SHDL. Or I suddenly become bad with z-canceling, edgeguarding, mindgames, consistently reading my opponant...etc...
Then there's always those random moments of the day where I'm "In the Zone" and barely mess up at all.

I have improved a lot since I started in january, but I can't break this barrier I'm at now, no matter how much I try. It may be possible for me to improve eventually, over time, but I doubt I'd be able to reach anything of a really high or top level, because I lack that talent to do so.

Daedatheus · Nov 27, 2009

I find it helps to take note of all the good habits and consistent tricksy stuff that better players do, and then aim to implement it yourself.

I know that I often write down in a text file some new habits and tricks to learn just so that I don't forget everything I saw in a certain night's matches of p2p or something. Then I can always reference it next time I'm about to play, and plan to use some new stuff.

Also while I've said before that I practice combos here and there to improve character control, I also sometimes practice simple character movement to make my character faster. Every now and then I'll see a manuever in a high-level match on Youtube and just wonder "Hey, how'd he move like that?" Then go practice it in training mode. Helps me perfect getting around in the fastest possible ways or tricking opponents or continuing combos or surviving recoveries. Always useful.

WOTG said:
Talent has a lot to do with it. The reason why so many players have been trying to improve their game(even for years), and simply just can not, or keep consistence with it, is simply because they lack the talent(not saying they completely don't have talent)

WOTG said:
I have improved a lot since I started in january, but I can't break this barrier I'm at now, no matter how much I try. It may be possible for me to improve eventually, over time, but I doubt I'd be able to reach anything of a really high or top level, because I lack that talent to do so.

This is a terrible attitude to have and is exactly the reason why you're not getting any better.

You haven't tried everything yet. Perhaps you're just trying hard in the WRONG way, since simply trying hard isn't enough if you're pushing in a hopeless direction.
Sure a natural aptitude might come into play, but that's just a combo of attitude and the way in which their mind organizes info about the game. You can always come closer to that.

WOTG · Nov 27, 2009

It may be a pessimistic attitude, but it's a realistic one. People are stuck, not only because they're just not dedicated or haven't found the right ways in improving, it's because they literally reached their peak in potential.
Many people really just can't hack it; You're not going to be great(est) at everything you like to do. Either you have the talent or you don't

Nephiros · Nov 27, 2009

Seems to me like ssb favor campers a bit too much; no time limit and running away is usually easy depending on your character. I'm an aggressive player and campers just bore me to death as well as people who are way too scared to do anything but safe baits until they see an easy opening...takes forever and isn't too exciting. It's fine in tourneys obviously, but always playing like this in friendlies is imo not very fun and limits your knowledge and skills growth.

NixxxoN · Nov 27, 2009

WOTG said:
It may be a pessimistic attitude, but it's a realistic one. People are stuck, not only because they're just not dedicated or haven't found the right ways in improving, it's because they literally reached their peak in potential.
Many people really just can't hack it; You're not going to be great(est) at everything you like to do. Either you have the talent or you don't

M2K says hes not so naturally talented for smash. So it suggests that lots of players can reach a very good level if they work insanely hard and practice advanced stuff.
Also, experience is key. Playing for many years gives you a HUGE advantage over other newer players.

SilentSlayers · Nov 27, 2009

Nephiros:

Really does depend on characters. I think the game is too advanced and has too many options to fully support camping. I find it's so easy to approach Link these days. They seem to think they're invincable when they run and use a boomerang, when I simply upsmash them with CF before they get it off.

You are right in some ways though.

DMoogle · Nov 27, 2009

SilentSlayers said:
Nephiros:

Really does depend on characters. I think the game is too advanced and has too many options to fully support camping. I find it's so easy to approach Link these days. They seem to think they're invincable when they run and use a boomerang, when I simply upsmash them with CF before they get it off.

You are right in some ways though.

Playing as Link vs. CF requires a much different strategy than all of Link's other matchups. Fortunately, once I came to realize that a few weeks ago and started to figure out the correct strategy, I've been doing much better vs. CF (although it's still a tough match-up).

WOTG: I think you're underestimating natural ability, and how much "hard work" contributes to skill level. But it's impossible for either of us to know exactly where the line is drawn.

Gammelnorsk · Nov 27, 2009

im bad so idk

just shouting out im bad

so u all know

all of u

Zen Yore · Nov 27, 2009

the only people i hate playing against are people who just do the same stuff over and over, thinking their tactics will work forever. Such as Mario fireball spammers or noob falcons who just do upsmash uair to up+b, etc.

i think the key to getting better is to play for fun, not care what other think and try new stuff. watching videos is both entertaining and helps you get better.

talking about videos, subscribe to my yt channel if you havent yet (lolwut)

ciaza · Nov 27, 2009

Blue Yoshi said:
Probably one of the most important things to learn at high level play is the ability to adapt to different strategies and play styles, as well as being able to read, and predict your opponent's moves (noticing patterns goes here as well). However, this is something that cannot be taught. You must learn this on your own. This is probably the thing that separates the really good players from the good players.

This!

The ability to adapt during any situation and out think your opponents moves and strategies is the most important thing that will more than likely lead to victory if mastered, and can greatly close the gap between character advantages.

Lawrencelot · Nov 27, 2009

Zen Yore said:
the only people i hate playing against are people who just do the same stuff over and over, thinking their tactics will work forever. Such as Mario fireball spammers or noob falcons who just do upsmash uair to up+b, etc.

i think the key to getting better is to play for fun, not care what other think and try new stuff. watching videos is both entertaining and helps you get better.

talking about videos, subscribe to my yt channel if you havent yet (lolwut)

Spamming fireballs and uairing with falcon works, so if you master every aspect of that (making the uair chain as long as possible and guarantee the death of your opponent) you can become a very good player. In a tournament it doesn't matter if you are boring or not.

otg · Nov 27, 2009

I'm just posting here because Zen Yore's sig is sooo ****

Zen Yore · Nov 27, 2009

Lawrencelot said:
Spamming fireballs and uairing with falcon works, so if you master every aspect of that (making the uair chain as long as possible and guarantee the death of your opponent) you can become a very good player. In a tournament it doesn't matter if you are boring or not.

tournaments and friendlies aren't the same. i think you know that too. in a tournament you would want to get as far as possible into the bracket (in general), so you try to win and pretty much dont care if your moves are cheap or not. but in friendlies, doing boring stuff is just stupid, i prefer playing for fun, and being entertaining to play.

and both you and me know there's a lot more stuff that works than just boring combos/tactics. I am the human proof of it, me being one of the sexiest comboers on Kaillera, and still winning most of my games.

no brag

Deleted member · Nov 27, 2009

WOTG said:
Talent has a lot to do with it. The reason why so many players have been trying to improve their game(even for years), and simply just can not, or keep consistence with it, is simply because they lack the talent(not saying they completely don't have talent).
Any player can improve on their own pace if they dedicate themselves(in ways that was described), doesn't mean they'll all pace at a much higher level. There will always be major skill gaps because of how complex the human anatomy works, that differentiates us as people.

My problem is my consistency. I mess up a lot.
Sometimes I'm randomly doing amazing comboes, while then others I for some reason can't connect comboes for crap. Or, I can do excessive teleports, then next time I can't do it at all, same with other things like Mario's SH Dair Uair, or Fox's SHDL. Or I suddenly become bad with z-canceling, edgeguarding, mindgames, consistently reading my opponant...etc...
Then there's always those random moments of the day where I'm "In the Zone" and barely mess up at all.

I have improved a lot since I started in january, but I can't break this barrier I'm at now, no matter how much I try. It may be possible for me to improve eventually, over time, but I doubt I'd be able to reach anything of a really high or top level, because I lack that talent to do so.

with that mindset nobody will get past their "peak"

like my previous argument if you have a teacher that points out what you do wrong and smacks/*****es at you everytime you **** up you will eventually learn not to do a bad habit.

Or you can learn the harder way and think about why you are messing up. I prefer the easier way

So many people have this dumb idea that they are stuck and just give up. Smash 64 is a fairly slow game that benefits from sheer memorization and knowing what to do in a given situation. Execution comes from practice/knowing what to do. This is not a game where you have to have 0.4 second reflexes to shoot in a basketball shot

---

and by guiding i simply mean pointing something better to do in a situation or something that would otherwise take a long time to figure out, like doing a standing FULL jump n-air out of the **** tent with fox to do the up-smash on the middle platform (not a moving jump)

--

link vs falcon isn't that bad. part of the reason is that 50% of the 95% that suck don't know how to use such a simple character (falcon)

asianaussie · Nov 27, 2009

I play Link, and against Fox, I'd rather be comboed into oblivion in the **** tent than suffer some guy laser camping at an edge than edgehoggging after a B-throw, but I know that the latter is probably a more guaranteed strategy, and I would consider it in a tournament/money match.

As such...I don't really mind about getting better - I just play for fun.

WOTG · Nov 27, 2009

I won't post anything else about that, might lead to some dumb argument.

I try to adapt to people's play styles. Versus a camper, I play campy. Versus an aggressive player, I play aggressive. Versus a grab spammer, I spam aerials, projectiles, and try my best not to get grabbed; especially when they're grab spamming me when I'm Link, which I see lots of players do.
I'm not sure if I'm doing the right thing against projectile spammers, especially coming from Foxes and Marios; can't seem to dodge the projectiles too well, usually.
As far as the matches go, I don't care much about winning or losing, I just prefer people try to be creative.... and not brag about winning.

otg said:
I'm just posting here because Zen Yore's sig is sooo ****

Poor Firo.

SSBPete · Nov 27, 2009

even if u dont think ur not improving cause ur still losing by 2 lives to a player who has beaten u by 2 lives for 2 months, u still are improving, but THEY ARE TOO!
also 1 player mode helps me improve. it's helped me learn creative combos and has gotten my z-cancle rate to about 95%+. watching videos helps, for example, i watch alot of prince, sossi and sheer on yt and i've learnt moves that link with yoshi, that i wouldnt even dream of executing, and after sevral games of trying, it works. sorry but i belive ur always improving, even if its not much.

KoRoBeNiKi · Nov 27, 2009

The main thing for smash 64 is that friendlies in some ways are just as important as tournament matches due to there not being a large offline tournament scene. So people play like tournament games...outside of going for more interesting combos and such.

DemonicInfluence · Nov 28, 2009

I feel like most people in Smash improve at a similar rate with some slight variations (that can make a difference over a bit of time). This makes the whole peak thing seem more apparent when it isn't quite real. So even though I continue to get pounded by Superboom and A$, it doesn't mean I haven't improved. I can see my improvement when I play just some random dude and realize I'm ****** him.

~ImNotPro

DMoogle · Nov 28, 2009

As far as the Link vs. Falcon discussion goes, Legendary plays the epitome of a Falcon that goes straight for exploiting Link's slowness, so he's a very good person to practice evolving your Link vs. Falcon strategy with.

Zen Yore said:
I am the human proof of it, me being one of the sexiest comboers on Kaillera, and still winning most of my games.

Yeah, I was actually thinking about using you as an example in the OP but wasn't able to work it in. I don't remember playing you before you were really good, but a lot of people have posted that you've improved to a higher level more quickly than nearly everyone else in recent history, and you're definitely one of the best now.

DemonicInfluence said:
I feel like most people in Smash improve at a similar rate with some slight variations (that can make a difference over a bit of time). This makes the whole peak thing seem more apparent when it isn't quite real. So even though I continue to get pounded by Superboom and A$, it doesn't mean I haven't improved. I can see my improvement when I play just some random dude and realize I'm ****** him.

~ImNotPro

You've improved a ton, I can't just do whatever and beat you anymore.

The Star King · Nov 28, 2009

I remember Garuda saying almost the exact same thing to me lol =/

About talent peaking, I think talent determines how easily you reach your "peak"; the moment when improving becomes very difficult. However, I think anyone can break past their peak, with the right mindset.

I still haven't reached my "peak", and I think I'm getting kind of good. I want to show my moves at tournaments now. My schedule is still too shaky to sign up for any, though. >_>

Fireblaster · Nov 28, 2009

what the fack are you all talking about

just play some games and get good

Why y'all aren't getting much better

A$

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