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Why we can't wait to ban Metaknight

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Overswarm

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Many predictions have been made about the possibility of Metaknight falling from his throne, but as of yet all have been incorrect.

To give you a bit of history, Ankoku's chart has had two total characters taking the #1 spot:

Snake
Metaknight

It was originally held by Snake, then quickly taken over by Metaknight. Since then, Metaknight hasn't dropped from that spot, and has had a point total that is generally around the combined points total of the 2nd and 3rd ranked characters. Even while Snake was in first, MK was in 2nd. The third place spot has been taken by Diddy, Dedede, Falco, and Wario (Wario tied with D3 at that point, technically).

Other characters have risen and fallen dramatically, but for all intents and purposes there have been a grand total of two characters that could be considered "blue chip stocks": Snake and MK.

Some people have said that Metaknight is really easy to use and popular; that's why he's done so well. This could be true; it certainly had a bit of truth to Snake and Dedede's early performance.

So I took it upon myself to collect data on every single tournament that has 150 players or more.



Code:
MK	96.6	36%
Snake	50.3	19%
Dedede	24.3	9%
Wario	21.3	8%
Falco	19.8	7%
Diddy	14	5%
Ice C	9.1	3%
Lucario	5.5	2%
ZSS	5.5	2%
G&W	4	1.50%
Marth	3.3	1.20%
ROB	3	1.10%
Fox	2	0.70%
Pikachu	1	0.30%
Kirby	1	0.30%
Olimar	1	0.30%
Using Ankoku's point system, but ignoring the number of players attending and entry fee amount, I got the above data. 1 point for top 8, 4 points for top 4, 7 points for 2nd, 10 points for 1st. Very simple, and shows every character who made the top 8 without making one "first place" count more than another.



You'll find this, more or less, goes with Ankoku's chart.

Ankoku's chart said:
1 Meta Knight (168 top8, 117 top4, 67 top2, 67 wins, 419 total) - 3699.1
2 Snake (128 top8, 67 top4, 44 top2, 52 wins, 291 total) - 2503.1

A Rank «Overused» 24.28%
3 Diddy Kong (80 top8, 33 top4, 22 top2, 21 wins, 156 total) - 1126.6
4 Marth (41 top8, 40 top4, 17 top2, 13 wins, 111 total) - 919.8
5 Falco (56 top8, 34 top4, 20 top2, 10 wins, 120 total) - 803.9
6 Ice Climbers (47 top8, 22 top4, 21 top2, 15 wins, 105 total) - 659.9

B Rank «Standard» 11.92%
7 Wario (47 top8, 26 top4, 8 top2, 12 wins, 93 total) - 528.2
8 King Dedede (43 top8, 26 top4, 17 top2, 13 wins, 99 total) - 517.3
9 Olimar (31 top8, 22 top4, 10 top2, 10 wins, 73 total) - 367.4
10 Lucario (36 top8, 21 top4, 5 top2, 6 wins, 68 total) - 310.6

C Rank «Borderline» 11.07%
11 Kirby (29 top8, 18 top4, 5 top2, 6 wins, 58 total) - 260.8 - 12
12 ROB (29 top8, 17 top4, 10 top2, 7 wins, 63 total) - 246.2 - 11
13 Zero Suit Samus (27 top8, 14 top4, 3 top2, 4 wins, 48 total) - 242.5
14 Pikachu (21 top8, 10 top4, 4 top2, 4 wins, 39 total) - 237.2
15 Mr. Game & Watch (42 top8, 13 top4, 7 top2, 3 wins, 65 total) - 230.0
16 Toon Link (19 top8, 10 top4, 2 top2, 4 wins, 35 total) - 205.2
Ankoku's chart has toon link, My 150+ player chart has Fox. Other than that, no difference in character choice. Just a few changes in placement here and there.

From this we can also see that one of two things are happening:

A) Metaknight has dictated which characters are viable at both high level of play (tournaments with 150+ players) and all levels of play combined (ankoku's chart)

or

B) It's merely coincidental that the characters that do better against Metaknight have higher rankings and those that do poorly have lower rankings.


Looking at the list, you can see several characters that could otherwise be viable that aren't nearly as high as others and it appears to be solely due to MK's influence. While it may be a coincidence, it is highly unlikely. Do we really think King Dedede is 8th best, or has Metaknight taken the wind out of his sails?


To put it in perspective how much better MK has done at large scale tournaments than other characters:



That is a very, very large gap.

For those of you that like pie:




And one last way to explain how much better Metaknight has done is to show the combined point rankings of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th ranked characters from 150+ player tournaments since the beginning of Brawl:



They almost beat Metaknight.




But one could say that things have changed since the beginning of Brawl, and that things are much better now. Adding tournaments from so long doesn't make sense, since obviously MK could have destroyed everyone when no one knew waht they were doing, and since then he has fallen since the harder to learn characters have come up.

And you'd be right, if you were talking about Dedede.




Snake is the only character that has had a showing in every tournament with 150+ players. Metaknight is actually at a numerical disadvantage here, since he didn't show up at all at the first "big" tournament.

Since Metaknight started though, he's only had one bad tournament (http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=3834, Winter Games Fest), which shows itself as a clear outlier. Snake, his #2, has beaten MK's score in only one of the 8 events with more than 150 players. If you take that one moment and then compare it to all of Metaknight's placements, Metaknight is still a clear winner. Metaknight's point placements beat Snake's best all-time point placement 5/8 times.

The funny thing is, as time goes on, you first see Metaknight and Snake rising together followed by a steep drop off of every character BUT Metaknight. In fact, the last tournament on the graph doesn't even show any other character that was in the top 5 of my list.



Everyone's excited about Diddy, but Diddy's results are incredibly poor across the board at large tournaments. Diddy has one spike in point placement, and even then it is still overshadowed by MK.

Claiming that Diddy is the new MK counter is just as silly as it was when people said it about Snake or Ice Climbers. The data just isn't there. Diddy's massive point spike was due to one player and even that player claims it is even.

For those of you that don't play Diddy but still have an opinion:

MK boards said:
Metaknight's favor overall 33 31.13%
Diddy Kong's favor overall 29 27.36%
Even matchup overall 44 41.51%
diddy boards said:
Metaknight's favor overall 51 41.13%
Diddy Kong's favor overall 23 18.55%
Even matchup overall 50 40.32%
Public perception is on the Diddy boards is that it is in MK's favor. On the MK boards it is that it is an event matchup. A grand total of 52 votes think the matchup is in Diddy Kong's favor, and these are the people that play the character. ADHD has proclaimed it to be even on the boards, Alpha Zealot's vote is for even, and both Dekar and Gness have voted for it to be in Metaknight's favor.

Diddy is not the magic pill for metaknight that some people think he is. ADHD is just really good and knows the matchup. Just like Ally didn't bring on the reign of the Snake, ADHD will not be followed by an army of monkeys.



We have no data and I mean none that implies anything will change in a way that hurts MK's dominance. In fact, results show a RISE in metaknight usage AND victory. You cannot claim that the Metaknight issue can be ignored simply because Ally's Snake won one event and ADHD's Diddy won another when no one else has come even close to emulating them. Over the course of Brawl's lifespan, Metaknight gave everyone a headstart and is still smoking the entire cast. He beats Snake and Diddy's points combined on Ankoku's chart. If you combined Snake and Diddy they'd barely be out-ranking Metaknight. If you combined Snake, Wario, and Dedede's points from 150+ player tournaments, they'd barely be losing to Metaknight's ranking, and Dedede had a free tournament since MK wasn't present in the top 8!

36% of all points at these 150+ tournaments have gone to Metaknight. Snake has been shown to be a clear underdog in all of this.

But in all this data, there is something very good about all of this:

The rest of the cast is very, very close together.

Snake's 19% of the points is a decent gap between D3's 9%, but other than that there is a very, very minor gap. This hints towards a possibility of a game where MULTIPLE characters are viable in high level play, rather than just Metaknight and whoever you think does well against him.

Knowing what we know about Snake now, it is very unlikely that Snake would dominate as Metaknight has. Snake has multiple bad stages and several even and bad matchups that can be statistically shown, and most of those bad matchups are taken out of the tournament by MK. In other words, Snake's results are inflated and will drop.



On top of all this, I bring the worst news of all. This goes beyond the Metaknight issue, and is something I believe the entire community can attack voraciously:



This graph uses all of Ankoku's recorded tournaments and shows a steady decline in attendance. Statistically, winter months have less entrants than spring and summer, but this graph shows the opposite. (Graph by hotgarbage)


Beyond this, go back and read the arguments for banning Metaknight and the arguments against it. Listen to the podcast. Ask yourself if the pro-ban argument has changed. Then ask if the anti-ban argument has changed.


Metaknight needs to be banned. The evidence people are looking for cannot physically exist. This is pure dominance, and any expectations of a magical counter have been and always will be a pipe dream.

We've seen people arguing for ledge grab limits, for gliding limits, for banning IDC, for making Metaknight lose if the time runs out, for having a certain amount of air time available, Metaknight not being able to counterpick his opponent, and all SORTS of ridiculous things.

These are clear indications that the character is a problem. Don't continue to beat around the bush; ban the character. Metaknight clears expectations set by all previous bannings. Items have been banned faster, stages have been banned faster, and even D3's infinite has been banned in multiple regions and none of these have even close to the amount of negative data that MK has given us.

From a historical perspective, MK meets and exceed our banning criteria. From a realistic perspective, you can see his dominance. From an originalist perspective you can see that Metaknight is clearly a game breaker. From a contructivist perspective you can see that without Metaknight, many of the game's characters can flourish at the top level of play and create a very diverse and wonderful metagame where people can love their main again.

There's no reason to keep MK other than personal reasons. Most MK mains out there will never want their MK banned. Most people making money off of MK, whether it be a Snake or Diddy that would rather keep their hours of MK experience rather than fight a D3 or the MK himself, would rather keep him around.

We have plenty of time to ban Metaknight now, before summer nationals and another year of Metaknight infestation. Take action now, ban him from local events, and get him banned officially by the SBR.




Edit:

All of my numbers are from Ankoku's data. He has links to each of them; my point system is described both in my thread and his said:
 

Overswarm

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I find it hard to believe you read all this in 3 minutes, Jumpman.

The thing is, we don't have solid banning criteria at the moment.
There will never be a universally agreed upon banning criteria. It was hard enough for me to write what constitutes a starter/counter/banned stage!
 

Renegade TX2000

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lol adhd isn't "Q" from 3rd strike that just appears to every tourney there is. mk has 1 even match up and that's himself and also has stage advantage striking and can mask his weakness by striking fd/and banning fd or any other stage the player doesn't feel confident in
 

CRASHiC

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also has stage advantage striking and can mask his weakness by striking fd/and banning fd or any other stage the player doesn't feel confident in
I was going to say this applies to every character, but if we are talking about Diddy Vs. Metaknight, Diddy is in a disadvantage against Metaknight in a 3/5 set.
 
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And FD isn't even a bad stage for MK. It's actually a pretty solid stage. For example, it is the very best stage for MK against G&W, AFAIK.

EDIT: Also, that image is ****ing HUGE. Makes the post very hard to read at times. Just FYI.
 

DtJ XeroXen

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No more MK, I had to pick up the character JUST TO DEAL WITH THAT CHARACTER. I used to be Anti-ban, but if I can't even use my main for fear of having to deal with MK then it's just too ridiculous for me.

He's just too ridiculous.
 

Nanaki

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I think it's commendable that you've gone to the extent that you have to prove your point. The data is clear, it shows an overwhelming trend of dominance. You've laid out your terms and arguments well, and it's plain to see that your arguments are rational.

That said, your title reveals the true problem: we've waited too long already.

The longer we wait, the more ridiculous the "criteria" for banning will become. Pro-ban needs to stay 3 steps ahead of the curve, but it will just never be enough. Many of the best players are MK mains, and their opinion carries tremendous weight in this community (and likely in the SBR, though I can't speak for that and won't try to assume I know anything about the goings-on in there).

People like to win, people like to make money, and Meta Knight makes it easy. Your plight is doomed from the start, no matter how well it's backed.
 

Eddie G

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The thing is, we don't have solid banning criteria at the moment.
I know what you mean, but how long are people planning to lean on this!?

The evidence of dominance is RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES! Lord knows how long this picky community would even take to establish a clear ban criteria, and by then...I don't even want to think what could have happened to the size and activity of the community. This is not about criteria anymore, this is about a problem that is clearly present and must be dealt with in a proactive and timely manner.

We've pussyfooted around the issue long enough, decisions need to be made NOW.
 

-Jumpman-

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Meta Knight is dominant is the US, but other than that there's no good reason he should be banned. In fact, dominance seems to be your only argument. I can only agree that Meta Knight is dominant. Pound 4's results show how dominant Meta Knight can be without competition. Even the best Snake player, Ally, took the risk of playing Meta Knight (however, failed miserably).

Personally, I don't think Meta Knight should be banned. There's one simple problem that needs to be overcome: the SBR doesn't have criteria for a ban.

Meta Knight causes dominance, dropping attendance numbers, an arguably less enjoyable game and more passive playstyles. In the US it seems banning Meta Knight would definitely make the game more interesting. And looking at Pound 4's results I honestly don't think it would be a bad idea. Maybe it's a good idea to look what happens in the next 4 months, if Meta Knight really stays dominant. Maybe I have to reconsider my view on this. I voted anti ban (when I still was in the sbr > : ( lol ) last time, maybe I won't this time.

Europe, unlike the US, doesn't have multiple dominant Meta Knights (:( ). So I guess we're cool here.
 

Renegade TX2000

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I see Nanaki that's worse then sakurai, "talking about being biased". SBR only cares about how much money they will make. the majority of the SBR don't give a flying **** about what's good for the community they just try to comprehend on how much money they will get or what's in it for them...

I like how Nanaki clearly presents that in his post... LoL community fail
 

Flayl

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Couldn't you just save this for the SBR, WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER GOD**** MK THREAD.
 

.AC.

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its not like TOs will ban mk just because the sbr ruleset says so, of course it will influence a lot but in the end its always optional. if TOs wanted to ban mk in their tournament so badly, they would already have done so. meanwhile there are only mk banned tourneys occasionally.
 

Eddie G

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Couldn't you just save this for the SBR, WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER GOD**** MK THREAD.
Get the **** out of here if if bothers you so much then!

This is a clear issue in the community. There will be an abundance of MK threads whether you like it or not. Now either post something relevant and/or contributing to what the OP addresses, or leave. Your whiny commentary isn't needed.
 

718_ROOKI3

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Just ban the muthaf*cka already. For those who don't wanna over think anything and put it in lamest terms, the guy has 4 recoveries, 6 jumps, no cooldown on attacks, frame 2 Uair, shuttle loop canceling, drillrush platform canceling, nado spamming, invincibility frames, transending hit boxes, do I need to keep going. Get real ppl, plz just ban him. And don't get it twisted. I main fox and have no prob fighting a bracket of MKs. Its cool with me. BUT I don't wanna see smash as a whole become MetaKnightBoards.com
 

gallax

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ive got to say to OS very well written. i very much believe what u say and would like to see a ban on MK. even if it is a temporary ban.

its sad when theres 30+ chars and when i go to a smash fest 75ish% of the ppl main or second mk. i wouldnt mind playing a jiggs or bowser or luigi more often.
 

Flayl

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you're Right. I Haven't Contributed Any New Information. My Bad.
It's Clearly Impossible To Use Any Of The Other Fifty Mk Threads To Convey New Info.

hey guys maybe if we flood the board with threads about mk people will have no choice but to think MK is this new and urgent issue that clearly has never been adressed before!
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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I know what you mean, but how long are people planning to lean on this!?

The evidence of dominance is RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES! Lord knows how long this picky community would even take to establish a clear ban criteria, and by then...I don't even want to think what could have happened to the size and activity of the community. This is not about criteria anymore, this is about a problem that is clearly present and must be dealt with in a proactive and timely manner.

We've pussyfooted around the issue long enough, decisions need to be made NOW.
I understand that. Personally, I don't care. I don't play Brawl competitively, so it doesn't matter to me. I just like debating and arguing.

Anyway, I understand that there is a problem that must be solved. But in order to ban a character, you must know why you're banning them. All of this information is great, and kudos to OS for putting it all together, but just this information is not enough to ban a character. We have to at least present a criteria for a ban, not just say "he's won considerably more than any other character."

Trust me, I know that it would be extremely difficult to get a real ban criteria together, but one has to be at least presented before a ban can seriously be discussed so we are able to compare the character, MK in this case, to the criteria for the ban.

EDIT: @ Flayl: If you don't like it, don't read it. Don't spam the thread. It serves no purpose whatsoever.
 

Eddie G

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It's Clearly Impossible To Use Any Of The Other Fifty Mk Threads To Convey New Info.

hey guys maybe if we flood the board with threads about mk people will have no choice but to think MK is this new and urgent issue that clearly has never been adressed before!
Right, let's just search through endless pages of garbage to salvage anything remotely useful instead of having a clearly informative new thread with all of the necessary information conveniently located in the OP. Stop whining.
 

CR4SH

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We've seen people arguing for ledge grab limits, for gliding limits, for banning IDC, for making Metaknight lose if the time runs out, for having a certain amount of air time available, Metaknight not being able to counterpick his opponent, and all SORTS of ridiculous things.

These are clear indications that the character is a problem.
^^That^^

10ofthose
 

DanGR

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A lot of your "data" in the OP just shows that he's a really popular character.

While I am pro-ban, I think you gotta do better than that to convince the masses. ;/
 

Flayl

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It's just a concidence that does that think this thread is necessary are pro-ban?

Guys, remember the time OS was pro-ban and his arguments at the time had nothing to do with planking/stalling, but just on how MK had a really good moveset?
 

Remzi

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Very good thread... I think I'm starting to lean off my neutral stance a bit... afterall, this is the evidence anti-ban has been requesting all this time isn't it?
 

Eddie G

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I understand that. Personally, I don't care. I don't play Brawl competitively, so it doesn't matter to me. I just like debating and arguing.

Anyway, I understand that there is a problem that must be solved. But in order to ban a character, you must know why you're banning them. All of this information is great, and kudos to OS for putting it all together, but just this information is not enough to ban a character. We have to at least present a criteria for a ban, not just say "he's won considerably more than any other character."

Trust me, I know that it would be extremely difficult to get a real ban criteria together, but one has to be at least presented before a ban can seriously be discussed so we are able to compare the character, MK in this case, to the criteria for the ban.

EDIT: @ Flayl: If you don't like it, don't read it. Don't spam the thread. It serves no purpose whatsoever.
It's easy to predict what will happen if we fall back on that though. People (particularly some anti-ban and MK mains) will use that issue to prolong any sort of decision whatsoever for as long as they can. Then, if and when it comes time to make a decision regarding criteria, it is highly likely that an unattainable requirement for ban criteria will be presented and all of the previously relevant data on MK and his dominance/character use influence will be bumped to moot. It'll all be one giant process designed for us to fail, that's all it is at this point since criteria had not been established early and without so much personal gain or possible anterior motives involved like it should have been.

I believe it is time to ditch formality and take action already.
 

gallax

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Guys, remember the time OS was pro-ban and his arguments at the time had nothing to do with planking/stalling, but just on how MK had a really good moveset?
well now he has even more data to back his stance up on top of his really good moveset.
 

MarKO X

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These are clear indications that the character is a problem. Don't continue to beat around the bush; ban the character. Metaknight clears expectations set by all previous bannings. Items have been banned faster, stages have been banned faster, and even D3's infinite has been banned in multiple regions and none of these have even close to the amount of negative data that MK has given us.
THIS THIS THIS

If you are soooo willing to ban items because you feel they aren't good for competition, if you are soooo willing to ban stages because you feel they aren't good for competition, and you're willing to ban standing infinites because it's not good for competition, why are you not willing to ban a character that isn't good for competition?

They say that MK is the best character in the game. No sh*t. Every game where you can choose different characters that have different statistics will have a best character. But few games have a single character that is so dominant to the point people are coming up with rules that "limit" that character (I use limit loosely because MK is still beasting around the rules used to try and keep him in check). Coming up with numerous rules for a single character is practically unheard of.

They say learn the matchup. What you thought, people haven't been trying to learn the matchup for the 2 years the game's been out? As many MKs that enter tourneys, you'd be foolish to not learn the matchup... unless for the 2 years the game's been out, no one has actually been trying to learn the matchup... which would be weird considering how MK is the first character discussed in matchup discussions, the many, many threads in the BTD about how to defeat MK, etc.

They say get better. Not everyone will have the capacity to get better, but even still, if they feel as though they want to play the game competitively, they will come out and play the game competitively. You can't "have fun" "playing to win" (play for fun and play to win at the same time) unless you have fun playing to win (you truly enjoy all the encompasses playing to win), and if no one is having fun while they're playing to win, then no one is going to come to your tournaments.

But whatever. Do what you feel is best for the community, because in the end, that's probably what matters most... amirite?
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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I see Nanaki that's worse then sakurai, "talking about being biased". SBR only cares about how much money they will make. the majority of the SBR don't give a flying **** about what's good for the community they just try to comprehend on how much money they will get or what's in it for them...
Are you stupid? A lot of the SBR members aren't even that good of players, they're just knowledgeable (for the most part).

While some members are clearly biased, I don't see how you can think that as a group they're just corrupt, self-centered idiots.
 
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