Why we can't wait to ban Metaknight

[Dabuz]

While I'm anti-ban I need to address something.

There are three main reasons that come up when banning a character can be considered.

1. Over-centralization - This is debatable if he is doing this. IS MK dominating because he is shutting down most of the cast or is he dominating because people are choosing to play him? People CP MK for Snake while Olimar and debatably DDD are much better CP choices for Snake. MK has no bad MU's so people just pick him.

2. Attendance - This may be a legit point. While attendance does go down during winter it doesn't change the fact that attendance in some areas is still declining. Is MK responsible for this? Well if we ask people who quit it would shed some light on the debate.

3. The game is better without him - This is a very hard point to prove, would the game be much better without MK around? Yes, but how much is the real question. To ban a character it has to justify the metagame to improve to astronomical levels to warrant this. Does banning MK make the metagame much better, dunno.

over centralization: look at any boards, what matchup does everyone care about? MK, what matchup is constantly rediscussed? MK


attendance: look at xyro's MK banned tournaments, more attendence

the game being better: most people, including MK mains, say yes

 

[Eddie G]

There should be MK tournies.

At this point there already are.

 

[demonictoonlink]

the game being better: most people, including MK mains, say yes

You made this up.

 

[Katana_koden]

I'm probably anti ban, but due to too many people playing with metaknight, I think his metagame is too far. His meta game is easily seen and makes it harder for other characters to progress because their metagame take a bit longer.

You can have alot of matchup experience against the guy, but overall there are too many metaknight mains to really change whats really happening in brawl.

I wouldn't want him permanently banned, just until many people start using other characters more.

Though I main pit... He isn't played competitively enough to actually find out his meta game. On the pit boards, we are still considering whats good and whats bad. Metaknight has already been through this phase long ago.

His metagame far more advanced than ours and we only wonder why is pit so good in other countries.

If metaknight continues to be played now, meta mains will find new ways to counter other characters metagame (which will be simple due the numerous amount of people playing him). Ban him till the rosters change.

 

[UltiMario]

Okay, 6 pokemon on a team, only 1 can be Garchomp.
2 Characters per Smash Player, only one can be MK.

To make it a fair comparison, take Garchomp's usage and divide it by 3.

I GUARANTEE you, MK usage will be much high.

Theres one problem in that theory.
"Match ups"

MK actually has quite a lot of nearly-even match-ups, and just a handful of matchups against decent characers that are significant enough in his favor for him to be called a true counter.

Garchomp on the other hand, was completely invincible against all but 3 Pokemon that had to be used as revenge killers, and couldn't actually come in on Chomp.

If MK was as broken as Chomp, then you literally wouldn't be able to beat him because he would ALWAYS tack off the first stock, and then you'd have to come in and take care of him with your second one, the MK would finish the stock at 130%-ish at that logic, but it still means all the same.

Also, unlike Meta Knight, Garchomp can have 5 things to counter anything that can possibly give it trouble. Its like MK getting 2 more stocks in a tourney for every match.

Also, if you want to get technical, I used ALL characters in brawl vs ALL OU viable Pokemon, for something more realistic, you can either go compare:
42% 1/240-ish w/ 3 reliable checks to 36% 1/39 with no significant checks or counters, but serveral characters who are even.
Pretty much all fully evolved Pokemon vs All characters.
OR
42% 1/50-ish w/ 3 reliable checks to 36% 1/6 with some rather even matchups for most of it.
aka about as many OU viable Pokemon there were vs S Tier.


Yeah. Garchomp > Meta Knight by a long shot, so I want to see Meta Knight hit that 43% mark and then you can ban him.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

over centralization: look at any boards, what matchup does everyone care about? MK, what matchup is constantly rediscussed? MK

That is centralization not over centralization. The discussion part is false.

attendance: look at xyro's MK banned tournaments, more attendence

Support pro ban argument if this is true.

the game being better: most people, including MK mains, say yes

Don't speak for others.

 

[Eddie G]

Ban him till the rosters change.

And then what? Do you honestly believe that people would not go straight back to him? People like to win, MK alleviates some of the effort required to do so. Add those together and we're right back where we started. The last thing we need right now is any method that would be a waste of time.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

"Maybe" planking and stalling are primarily Meta Knight problems.

 

[Inui]

I can't wait until people give up on trying to ban a character that didn't take 1st at Apex, Genesis, or Pound 4.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Enough data, not enough caring.
Anti Ban.
Meta is basically Fox from Melee. He's good, but he can be beaten.

Final Melee Tier List

Fox beats Marth out by .03 points.

Most Recent Brawl Tier List

I know that that doesn't have the point rankings, but we all know that there is a larger gap between MK and Snake than there are between Melee Fox and Marth.

Just look at the Character Rankings List.



EDIT: @Inui:

I was waiting for you to get here.

The thing about that argument is that

1) 1st place is not all that matters. Did you not read the OP?

2) Ally and ADHD have found ways to beat MK. Just because they have doesn't mean he's any worse, it just means that arguably two of the three best players in the world have found ways to beat the best character in the game. At that point it comes down to the skill of the player.

 

[Eddie G]

I can't wait until people give up on trying to ban a character that didn't take 1st at Apex, Genesis, or Pound 4.

I think it's hilarious that people still want to lean on those as crutches to their argument. Pound 4 results were still infested, to say the least.

10drunkenDQs

 

[UltiMario]

Edit: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF Ignore this post.

 

[ETWIST51294]

From what I remember the number is higher than MK's dominance rating has been thus far.

While it's probably because the three best players all mained Marth at the time.

Enough data, not enough caring.
Anti Ban.
Meta is basically Fox from Melee. He's good, but he can be beaten.

............you two know nothing about my game. Please stop spreading this untrue nonsense.

Marth didn't run melee, and DEFINITLY didn't get top 8 as much as MK. I guess you don't know who PC, Chu, Isai, and Wes are. I will say that Ken ran melee, but there wasn't four or five marths in top 8. It was only Ken and Azen most of the time.

Fox, please, I don't even have to explain this.

Worry about YOUR game. Melee never had balance issues like this.

edit: OMFG^^ MARTH ISN'T EVEN CONSIDERED SECOND ANYMORE. ALL MELEE PLAYERS AGREE THE FALCO, SHEIK, AND JIGGS ARE BETTER THAN HIM. YOU GUYS KNOW NOTHING ABOUT MELEE STFU. FOX IS ONLY THE BEST BY THEORY NOT TOURNY RESULTS.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I can't wait until people give up on trying to ban a character that didn't take 1st at Apex, Genesis, or Pound 4.

The winners of national tournaments is too small a sample to draw any rational conclusions, especially when you consider that they're all the same 2-4 guys. Sorry.

It's the same when M2k says that Diddy beats MK at the top end; that's nice, but until there are multiple players at the top end, there's no way of actually proving that, it's just a gut feeling that M2k himself has about the match-up, no matter how good he is.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

............you two know nothing about my game. Please stop spreading this untrue nonsense.

Marth didn't run melee, and DEFINITLY didn't get top 8 as much as MK. I guess you don't know who PC, Chu, Isai, and Wes are. I will say that Ken ran melee, but there wasn't four or five marths in top 8. I was only Ken and Azen most of the time.

Fox, please, I don't even have to explain this.

Worry about YOUR game. Melee never had balance issues like this.

edit: OMFG^^ MARTH ISN'T EVEN CONSIDERED SECOND ANYMORE. ALL MELEE PLAYERS AGREE THE FALCO, SHEIK, AND JIGGS ARE BETTER THAN HIM. YOU GUYS KNOW NOTHING ABOUT MELEE STFU. FOX IS ONLY THE BEST BY THEORY NOT TOURNY RESULTS.

The data of his dominance came from actual results, not theory.

I think it was AlphaZealot who said this but I'm not 100% sure on this.

edit: also you can quit your elitist attitude.

 

[ETWIST51294]

When? WHEN!?! WHEN THE **** DID FOX EVER RUN MELEE!?! WHEN!?!

Once again, Marth didn't run melee, KEN DID.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I never said Fox did.

 

[gallax]

i will say that tourney's in CFL have dwindled down to the same 15ish people going to the same tourney. the only exception being that we host state tournies in CFL quite often but many choose to go to play and not enter. those who enter think they have a chance at beating a PR or placing top 8. mk would b a factor in that.

i also wanna say that we have <3(less than three) here in CFL who is probably the best sheik(if not the best hes top 3) in the country. ive played against light(who people say is the best sheik) and i can say they are both really close. at tournies hes beaten ranked marths. hes beaten pretty much everyone hes played against WHO ISNT MK. he loses 95% of his matches to MK's. not that he doesnt know the MU cuz i know hes trained hard with many different mk's, but that mu is so ridiculous for sheik that he loses everytime a mk comes around(good ones). its ridiculous to think that his sheik cant ever win cuz of MK, even though hes da best at his char(or second best XD). this holds true for other chars as well and banning mk would be extremely beneficial to them.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I said FOX is the best only by theory, not Marth. You said it was not based off theory, it was based off of tourny results. So I thought you were talking about Fox.

I'm sorry, but if you think Marth ran melee you really know nothing about melee. Ken beat everyone because he was simply better than everyone. It wasn't Marth. There has only been 4 successful Marths, Ken, Azen, Neo, and M2K.

 

[Katana_koden]

And then what? Do you honestly believe that people would not go straight back to him? People like to win, MK alleviates some of the effort required to do so. Add those together and we're right back where we started. The last thing we need right now is any method that would be a waste of time.

I believe some will, but as for the rest of the cast, they will be far higher I believe.
Even some meta mains will test the waters and bring someone else up.
Since snake has bad matchups, even pit obviously dominates him but that will lead to flames because no one else is confident about it.

Diddy may be the next one because he is very hard to get by such as gimps, speed, and them nannerz. But jiggly puff has a good chance against him. If so alot will also play jiggly puff and jiggly puff meta will hugely increase.

When meta comes back it will be like meta is trying to learn how to pass falco's lazors for the first time. < Thats a comparison to the casts improved meta game.

 

[Magus-Cie]

Very well done Overswarm.

Stepping away from my originalist philosophy for a moment, this is a problem we should nip now, before the damage gets more apparent.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I said FOX is the best only by theory, not Marth. You said it was not based off theory, it was based off of tourny results. So I thought you were talking about Fox.

I'm sorry, but if you think Marth ran melee you really know nothing about melee. Ken beat everyone because he was simply better than everyone. It wasn't Marth. There has only been 4 successful Marths, Ken, Azen, Neo, and M2K.

If you even read anything I posted before you would have notice I addressed the high win ratio by the bolded above.

I even stated that it was info posted by another forumer and asked if anyone had listing of the win ranking from those years to verify anything that could be simular to this problem. Of course I could be wrong that he didn't post this, but we could always jump the gun and tell other to shut the hell up and act elitist about how Melee doesn't have these problems. You know just a thought.

And yes Fox is only best be theory, because you need inhuman reflexes to tap into his potential and his learning curve his higher than most other top tiers.

 

[Eddie G]

I believe some will, but as for the rest of the cast, they will be far higher I believe.
Even some meta mains will test the waters and bring someone else up.
Since snake has bad matchups, even pit obviously dominates him but that will lead to flames because no one else is confident about it.

Diddy may be the next one because he is very hard to get by such as gimps, speed, and them nannerz. But jiggly puff has a good chance against him. If so alot will also play jiggly puff and jiggly puff meta will hugely increase.

When meta comes back it will be like meta is trying to learn how to pass falco's lazors for the first time. < Thats a comparison to the casts improved meta game.

...I'm sorry but I don't see that happening in any way, shape, or form even if that suggestion were to be carried out.

 

[ETWIST51294]

If you even read anything I posted before you would have notice I addressed the high win ratio by the bolded above.

I even stated that it was info posted by another forumer and asked if anyone had listing of the win ranking from those years to verify anything that could be simular to this problem. Of course I could be wrong that he didn't post this, but we could always jump the gun and tell other to shut the hell up and act elitist about how Melee doesn't have these problems. You know just a thought.

And yes Fox is only best be theory, because you need inhuman reflexes to tap into his potential and his learning curve his higher than most other top tiers.

I read all of the rest lf your posts before I posted. I will just say Marth didn't **** melee into banning him like MK did to brawl. It's funny how Marth wasn't even top tier till 2008. THATS SEVEN WHOLE YEARS! Sheik did very well from 2001-2004, Marth(well ken really) did it from 2005-2007, now it's Jiggs and Falco.

 

[황미영]

10drunkenDQs

/thread.

But to be honest I think the whole ban could hurt the community a lot. >:

If MK were to be banned because of dominance, then shouldn't Jiggs be part of it as well, since she dominates every national tourney.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I really don't see how discussing which Melee characters were dominant at different times pertains to whether or not MK should be banned. Take it to VMs.

 

[Katakiri]

/thread.

But to be honest I think the whole ban could hurt the community a lot. >:

If MK were to be banned because of dominance, then shouldn't Jiggs be part of it as well, since she dominates every national tourney.

Are you really bringing up melee here? A game that has had almost 9 years to mature.

I'm not going to even explain how many kinds of ignorant comparing MK & Jiggs is.

 

[ETWIST51294]

For 2 years >_>

I can't see MK every going lower on the tier list. We just don't really know how to play Jiggs yet. I can't see Jiggs running it for another year.

edit: Can people just stop comparing melee characters to MK? It never happened in melee, it never will.

 

[6Mizu]

"Maybe" planking and stalling are primarily Meta Knight problems.

Supermodel your right IMO. But even if we change the rules it'll only be this......
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262943
yes, a surgical change.


Guys I have a question.....and no one get "smart w/ me" or angry.
What if we have a ledge grab rule only fur MKs?
How would that work?

I can't wait until people give up on trying to ban a character that didn't take 1st at Apex, Genesis, or Pound 4.

I think Inui is drunk again.
lol

 

[gallax]

would the limit exist regardless of timeouts?

 

[황미영]

Are you really bringing up melee here? A game that has had almost 9 years to mature.

I'm not going to even explain how many kinds of ignorant comparing MK & Jiggs is.

Lol, I'm still using the same argument as everyone. ;D Psh, I'm not THAT ignorant. ;DDDD

 

[Omni]

what in the world?

since when can BBR discussions be brought out into the public like this? and who the heck is we?

overswarm, your actions are extremely shady.

for the rest of you the BBR is currently discussing this issue as you may have found out by OS. given a certain amount of time, Marc, Hylian or AZ may or may not post the entire argument in its entirety

 

[6Mizu]

Supermodel your right IMO. But even if we change the rules it'll only be this......
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262943
yes, a surgical change.


Guys I have a question.....and no one get "smart w/ me" or angry.
What if we have a ledge grab rule only fur MKs?
How would that work?





I think Inui is drunk again.
lol

would the limit exist regardless of timeouts?

Wait, are you talking to me?
cause I don't understand what you mean.

 

[gallax]

well right now we have a ledge grab limit that is un use only when there is a timeout. would we put a ledgegrab limit on mk that would only be used if he timed us out or used regardless of any other factor?

for example- mk wins but grabbed the edge 55 times. there was no time out cuz the mk won. would your ledge grab limit against mk mean that he would b disqualified?

 

[Magus-Cie]

what in the world?

since when can BBR discussions be brought out into the public like this? and who the heck is we?

overswarm, your actions are extremely shady.

for the rest of you the BBR is currently discussing this issue as you may have found out by OS. given a certain amount of time, Marc, Hylian or AZ may or may not post the entire argument in its entirety

Regardless of the shadiness of OS's actions, I do not see why we should not be allowed to discuss it as well. The BRoomers are the best of smash boards, but are by no means infallible. As unlikely as it is, something might be stated in a thread like this by one of us "white texts" that no BRoomer had thought about.

 

[Omni]

i guess it's not a problem @ Magus

however, i'm sure OS isn't going to post the responses and arguments that are being made to his topic. so to keep you guys updated:

Many predictions have been made about the possibility of Metaknight falling from his throne, but as of yet all have been incorrect.

First line and we encounter a major problem. Overswarm pretty much admits that Metaknight not falling from his throne is a problem. Him, and most pro-ban players, have a major issue with a fighting game having a dominant top character (probably because of Melee). However, as I've said time and time again, a game with a clear cut best character perfectly fine. There have been dozens of extremely popular fighting games that have clear cut best characters. There have been dozens more where only 2 or 3 of the cast was truly tourny viable.

One character (MK) having clear dominance over the rest of the cast isn't anything new. It's new if the only competitive fighting game you've touched before Brawl was Melee.

To give you a bit of history, Ankoku's chart has had two total characters taking the #1 spot:

Snake
Metaknight

It was originally held by Snake, then quickly taken over by Metaknight. Since then, Metaknight hasn't dropped from that spot, and has had a point total that is generally around the combined points total of the 2nd and 3rd ranked characters. Even while Snake was in first, MK was in 2nd. The third place spot has been taken by Diddy, Dedede, Falco, and Wario (Wario tied with D3 at that point, technically).

Other characters have risen and fallen dramatically, but for all intents and purposes there have been a grand total of two characters that could be considered "blue chip stocks": Snake and MK.

Nothing to argue here. Statistical facts and a brief interpretation that I agree with.

For future reference I'll only quote statements that I have an issue with. If it isn't quoted, assume that I agree with the statement or the statement is a statistical fact.

From this we can also see that one of two things are happening:

A) Metaknight has dictated which characters are viable at both high level of play (tournaments with 150+ players) and all levels of play combined (ankoku's chart)

Yes, the best character in a game will dictate which characters in the rest of the cast are tournament viable. This is common sense but it seems that Overswarm is painting this fact in a negative light.

or

B) It's merely coincidental that the characters that do better against Metaknight have higher rankings and those that do poorly have lower rankings.

It is not coincidental at all. I'm pretty sure Overswarm knows this so throwing in this "alternative" option is just for flavor. Again, it seems that OS has an issue with this fact in general.

Looking at the list, you can see several characters that could otherwise be viable that aren't nearly as high as others and it appears to be solely due to MK's influence. While it may be a coincidence, it is highly unlikely. Do we really think King Dedede is 8th best, or has Metaknight taken the wind out of his sails?

Metaknight dominates Dedede hardcore. This isn't a problem and it isn't surprising.

Zangief in SF4 is a powerhouse in nearly all of his match-ups. Except one. Sagat. People argue that this match-up is either 70-30 or 80-20 in Sagats favor. The point is the best character in the game, Sagat, directly counters Zangief. Let's stop here. Is that a problem? I don't think so.

So then the next argument is, "But Zangief would be so much more tourny viable if Sagat was gone!" The answer to that comment is, "You are correct,", but what does removing the best character in the game in order to cater Zangief and the rest of the cast being inferior have to do with Sagat as an individual? Nothing.

Another issue I have with Overswarm is his attempt to cater to the rest of the cast; to let more characters have more chances of winning because that's what a fun game is all about. That's scrubby mentality. The point of having a "best character" in any game is the fact that they dominate the majority of the cast; if they didn't, they probably wouldn't be the best. What is occurring, still, is a conflict of how Overswarm views the metagame and how it should exist. He simply disagrees with the nature of a game where clear dominance exist. Is he wrong in his thinking? Nah, but I think maybe due to his lack of experience with 3rd party fighting games with the added fact that he participated in the Melee metagame sways his judgement in the creation of the metagame he wants to be portrayed for Brawl.

Since Metaknight started though, he's only had one bad tournament (http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=3834, Winter Games Fest), which shows itself as a clear outlier. Snake, his #2, has beaten MK's score in only one of the 8 events with more than 150 players. If you take that one moment and then compare it to all of Metaknight's placements, Metaknight is still a clear winner. Metaknight's point placements beat Snake's best all-time point placement 5/8 times.

Yes, Metaknight is still the clear winner. Putting emphasis on the fact that Metaknight is the best character in the game isn't an argument.

Everyone's excited about Diddy, but Diddy's results are incredibly poor across the board at large tournaments. Diddy has one spike in point placement, and even then it is still overshadowed by MK.

Claiming that Diddy is the new MK counter is just as silly as it was when people said it about Snake or Ice Climbers. The data just isn't there. Diddy's massive point spike was due to one player and even that player claims it is even.

However, the fact is that a non-MK user has recently started to dominate MK in tournament. Not only has this Diddy dominated MK, but he has proven that Diddy can handle the rest of the cast just as well. The reason the results show a small spike with Diddy is because one player is using Diddy's potential at a much higher level calibur.

You cannot ignore the fact that a Diddy took 1st place in one of the biggest national brawl tournaments up to date.

The argument, "But it's one person," or "ADHD is special" is bologna. What ADHD did was show to the smash scene that Diddy has the potential and capabilities of wreaking absolute havoc in the game including against Metaknight himself.

Ally's Snake, taking 3rd at the same tournament, is the same example with ADHD. These players aren't special. We all picked up the disc and started from the same point; these two players simply have put the most effort in to opening and exploring a character that is more complex and harder to use than MK.

Diddy is not the magic pill for metaknight that some people think he is. ADHD is just really good and knows the matchup. Just like Ally didn't bring on the reign of the Snake, ADHD will not be followed by an army of monkeys.

A very, very poor statement here.

ADHD practically climbed Mount Everest and said, "Look. I can do it. So can you." The argument you make here is just... so weak I'm not sure how to respond to it. You're pretty much saying, "ADHD is really good at the game in terms of skill and is knowledgeable in terms of the matchup" as if no one else is allowed or capable of duplicating the same attributes.

There is no army behind ADHD or Ally because it's simply harder to do. Ally and ADHD have been spending their entire Brawl career perfecting match-ups, improving, discovering, etc. Their popularity can not match the popularity of Metaknight. Thus Metaknight's metagame increased at a substantial rate thanks to his popularity and M2K's extensive usage with him. Combine that with Metaknight's ease of use and you have your perfect Metaknight army.

Mind you, the best character army is very normal in all fighting games. This character is the staple character people surround their match-ups around when they are attempting to break the high tier barrier with a lower tiered character. Nothing new here.

--------

Breaking here to finish talking about the rest of the post in the next post below. Try to refrain from posting anything if you can.

 

[Omni]

We have no data and I mean none that implies anything will change in a way that hurts MK's dominance. In fact, results show a RISE in metaknight usage AND victory. You cannot claim that the Metaknight issue can be ignored simply because Ally's Snake won one event and ADHD's Diddy won another when no one else has come even close to emulating them. Over the course of Brawl's lifespan, Metaknight gave everyone a headstart and is still smoking the entire cast. He beats Snake and Diddy's points combined on Ankoku's chart. If you combined Snake and Diddy they'd barely be out-ranking Metaknight. If you combined Snake, Wario, and Dedede's points from 150+ player tournaments, they'd barely be losing to Metaknight's ranking, and Dedede had a free tournament since MK wasn't present in the top 8!

This is where we massively disagree on how the metagame will be shaped.

Firstly, you state again how MK's dominance is not affected showing your dislike for a character's dominance in a fighting game period. I addressed this issue above.

The Metaknight "issue" that you refer to is very unclear at this point. Ally's Snake and ADHD's Diddy is proof that there are characters who can go toe-to-toe and beat both Metaknight and the rest of the cast. It's actually perfect example of how players can break through the Metaknight barrier. ADHD was not this dominant when the MK issue was around a year ago, however one year later, look at him. Growing. Growing = healthy.

Metaknight had a headstart because he was the best character in the game. The best character being overused and overplayed and thus outspeeding the metagame race is not surprising nor abnormal.

But in all this data, there is something very good about all of this:

The rest of the cast is very, very close together.

Snake's 19% of the points is a decent gap between D3's 9%, but other than that there is a very, very minor gap. This hints towards a possibility of a game where MULTIPLE characters are viable in high level play, rather than just Metaknight and whoever you think does well against him.

Red light. This is Overswarm hinting again to his true intention: attempting to create a metagame that is similar in nature of Melee's. However you cannot ignore the growth that stares us in the face. Diddy is a threat. Snake is a threat. It is up to the community to pick up and possibly expand these characters. That's already 3 characters who are "viable".

Speaking of viable, we have players like DEHF's Falco who consistently takes 1st place in East Coast. Players like Boss' Luigi and Logic's Olimar and Chu's Kirby completely dominating their scene. Riddle's Zero Suit Samus just recently placed over Seibrik in the Florida region. Ice Climbers is a huge threat to Metaknight.

These results aren't fluke. It's growth. It's people expanding their characters without a massive army behind. Not only is it possible for people to place over MK, but it is happening on a very consistent basis and rapidly increasing as time moves forward.

This graph uses all of Ankoku's recorded tournaments and shows a steady decline in attendance. Statistically, winter months have less entrants than spring and summer, but this graph shows the opposite. (Graph by hotgarbage)

This is simply Overswarm being a drama queen and trying to capture the audience's attention by showing a statistical fact that does not directly relate to MK's existence.

A more accurate description of what that chart shows is the initial boom of the game. Then slowly but surely all of the MELEE players who did not like the change in the game dropped from the scene.

Bad, Overswarm. Bad.

Beyond this, go back and read the arguments for banning Metaknight and the arguments against it. Listen to the podcast. Ask yourself if the pro-ban argument has changed. Then ask if the anti-ban argument has changed.

What does an argument changing have to do with anything if previous arguments still directly answer "new" arguments that are being made?

Metaknight needs to be banned. The evidence people are looking for cannot physically exist. There will ALWAYS be a "what if". This is pure dominance, and any expectations of a magical counter have been and always will be a pipe dream.

No, Metaknight does not need to be banned.

You simply want him banned based on your interpretation of how you believe the metagame of Brawl should exist. Do not impose your ideals as absolute and suggest such a need when many people will share many different and equally as important views on the subject. This has been my main quarrel with you, Overswarm. Your ideas are not superior. They are views. There are many paths of finding a solution and yours is simply one path.

Metaknight does not need a "magical counter". This emphasis on finding someone who can defeat Metaknight is, again, you being discontent with a best character existing in competitive fighting game. You disagree with its setup and wish you establish a new one.

We've seen people arguing for ledge grab limits, for gliding limits, for banning IDC, for making Metaknight lose if the time runs out, for having a certain amount of air time available, Metaknight not being able to counterpick his opponent, and all SORTS of ridiculous things.

All of those issues have been shown to be issues in tournament by one character ONLY: Metaknight. Oddly enough, these things considered to be balance issues are not only MK only, but haven't had nearly as good of results as MK as a whole has.

By people, I hope you mean the SBR. The majority public does not whine about LGL's or gliding limits. At Pound 4, none of these "problems" even presented themselves. However, most pro-ban players will use what they can get as ammunition to present a case against Metaknight. In reality, these "issues" only reveal themselves once in a blue moon.

The fact that multiple characters can use the same technique is a good one. It means that it isn't character specific. The fact that Metaknight can do it the best simply reestablishes why he is #1 in the tier list.

These are clear indications that the character is a problem. Don't continue to beat around the bush; ban the character. Metaknight clears expectations set by all previous bannings. Items have been banned faster, stages have been banned faster, and even D3's infinite has been banned in multiple regions and none of these have even close to the amount of negative data that MK has given us.

I disagree. I don't think the character is the problem. I truly believe that the majority of the community was spoiled by Melee's metagame and wishes to have a repeat metagame with Brawl. That and the majority will have scrubby mentalities when it comes to dealing with the best character in a game just like EVERY other fighting game community.

From a historical perspective, MK meets and exceed our banning criteria. From a realistic perspective, you can see his dominance. From an originalist perspective you can see that Metaknight is clearly a game breaker. From a contructivist perspective you can see that without Metaknight, many of the game's characters can flourish at the top level of play and create a very diverse and wonderful metagame where people can love their main again.

Again. Here we disagree. Our views differ.

There's no reason to keep MK other than personal reasons. Most MK mains out there will never want their MK banned. Most people making money off of MK, whether it be a Snake or Diddy that would rather keep their hours of MK experience rather than fight a D3 or the MK himself, would rather keep him around.

Now you're just appealing to emotion. I guess you've accepted at this point in your argument that you're only going to give your opinions and attempt to cheerlead the rest of your argument as a conclusion.

Way to stray from logic. Though it's a good political move if you want to attract the masses.

 

[Dabuz]

what in the world?

since when can BBR discussions be brought out into the public like this? and who the heck is we?

they can be brought out since they affect the entire community largely




also, logic's olimar and chu's kirby are no where near dominating their scene

 

[Omni]

the argument is obviously on going and there obviously more points and cases that i haven't posted here since it will increase substantially

also, "we" does not refer to the BBR for those of you who were curious.

it would just be a shame to hear one side of the story and let everyone harp on OS's point without knowing that discussion with good points from both sides are being made

 

[6Mizu]

Supermodel your right IMO. But even if we change the rules it'll only be this......
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262943
yes, a surgical change.


Guys I have a question.....and no one get "smart w/ me" or angry.
What if we have a ledge grab rule only fur MKs?
How would that work?





I think Inui is drunk again.
lol

would the limit exist regardless of timeouts?

well right now we have a ledge grab limit that is un use only when there is a timeout. would we put a ledgegrab limit on mk that would only be used if he timed us out or used regardless of any other factor?

for example- mk wins but grabbed the edge 55 times. there was no time out cuz the mk won. would your ledge grab limit against mk mean that he would b disqualified?

Well, I'm not sure about that....which would be better?