since OS's thread isn't being closed and im not cool with OS's **** moves lately
heres my immediate response after hearing OS
First line and we encounter a major problem. Overswarm pretty much admits that Metaknight not falling from his throne is a problem. Him, and most pro-ban players, have a major issue with a fighting game having a dominant top character (probably because of Melee). However, as I've said time and time again, a game with a clear cut best character is perfectly fine. There have been dozens of extremely popular fighting games that have clear cut best characters. There have been dozens more where only 2 or 3 of the cast was truly tourny viable.
One character (MK) having clear dominance over the rest of the cast isn't anything new. It's new if the only competitive fighting game you've touched before Brawl was Melee.
Nothing to argue here. Statistical facts and a brief interpretation that I agree with.
For future reference I'll only quote statements that I have an issue with. If it isn't quoted, assume that I agree with the statement or the statement is a statistical fact.
Yes, the best character in a game will dictate which characters in the rest of the cast are tournament viable. This is common sense but it seems that Overswarm is painting this fact in a negative light.
It is not coincidental at all. I'm pretty sure Overswarm knows this so throwing in this "alternative" option is just for flavor. Again, it seems that OS has an issue with this fact in general.
Metaknight dominates Dedede hardcore. This isn't a problem and it isn't surprising.
Zangief in SF4 is a powerhouse in nearly all of his match-ups. Except one. Sagat. People argue that this match-up is either 70-30 or 80-20 in Sagats favor. The point is the best character in the game, Sagat, directly counters Zangief. Let's stop here. Is that a problem? I don't think so.
So then the next argument is, "But Zangief would be so much more tourny viable if Sagat was gone!" The answer to that comment is, "You are correct,", but what does removing the best character in the game in order to cater Zangief and the rest of the cast being inferior have to do with Sagat as an individual? Nothing.
Another issue I have with Overswarm is his attempt to cater to the rest of the cast; to let more characters have more chances of winning because that's what a fun game is all about. That's scrubby mentality. The point of having a "best character" in any game is the fact that they dominate the majority of the cast; if they didn't, they probably wouldn't be the best. What is occurring, still, is a conflict of how Overswarm views the metagame and how it should exist. He simply disagrees with the nature of a game where clear dominance exist. Is he wrong in his thinking? Nah, but I think maybe due to his lack of experience with 3rd party fighting games with the added fact that he participated in the Melee metagame sways his judgement in the creation of the metagame he wants to be portrayed for Brawl.
Yes, Metaknight is still the clear winner. Putting emphasis on the fact that Metaknight is the best character in the game isn't an argument.
However, the fact is that a non-MK user has recently started to dominate MK in tournament. Not only has this Diddy dominated MK, but he has proven that Diddy can handle the rest of the cast just as well. The reason the results show a small spike with Diddy is because one player is using Diddy's potential at a much higher level calibur.
You cannot ignore the fact that a Diddy took 1st place in one of the biggest national brawl tournaments up to date.
The argument, "But it's one person," or "ADHD is special" is bologna. What ADHD did was show to the smash scene that Diddy has the potential and capabilities of wreaking absolute havoc in the game including against Metaknight himself.
Ally's Snake, taking 3rd at the same tournament, is the same example with ADHD. These players aren't special. We all picked up the disc and started from the same point; these two players simply have put the most effort in to opening and exploring a character that is more complex and harder to use than MK.
A very, very poor statement here.
ADHD practically climbed Mount Everest and said, "Look. I can do it. So can you." The argument you make here is just... so weak I'm not sure how to respond to it. You're pretty much saying, "ADHD is really good at the game in terms of skill and is knowledgeable in terms of the matchup" as if no one else is allowed or capable of duplicating the same attributes.
There is no army behind ADHD or Ally because it's simply harder to do. Ally and ADHD have been spending their entire Brawl career perfecting match-ups, improving, discovering, etc. Their popularity can not match the popularity of Metaknight. Thus Metaknight's metagame increased at a substantial rate thanks to his popularity and M2K's extensive usage with him. Combine that with Metaknight's ease of use and you have your perfect Metaknight army.
Mind you, the best character army is very normal in all fighting games. This character is the staple character people surround their match-ups around when they are attempting to break the high tier barrier with a lower tiered character. Nothing new here.
--------
Breaking here to finish talking about the rest of the post in the next post below. Try to refrain from posting anything if you can.
--------
This is where we massively disagree on how the metagame will be shaped.
Firstly, you state again how MK's dominance is not affected showing your dislike for a character's dominance in a fighting game period. I addressed this issue above.
The Metaknight "issue" that you refer to is very unclear at this point. Ally's Snake and ADHD's Diddy is proof that there are characters who can go toe-to-toe and beat both Metaknight and the rest of the cast. It's actually perfect example of how players can break through the Metaknight barrier. ADHD was not this dominant when the MK issue was around a year ago, however one year later, look at him. Growing. Growing = healthy.
Metaknight had a headstart because he was the best character in the game. The best character being overused and overplayed and thus outspeeding the metagame race is not surprising nor abnormal.
Red light. This is Overswarm hinting again to his true intention: attempting to create a metagame that is similar in nature of Melee's. However you cannot ignore the growth that stares us in the face. Diddy is a threat. Snake is a threat. It is up to the community to pick up and possibly expand these characters. That's already 3 characters who are "viable".
Speaking of viable, we have players like DEHF's Falco who consistently takes 1st place in West Coast. Players like Boss' Luigi and Logic's Olimar and Chu's Kirby completely dominating their scene. Riddle's Zero Suit Samus just recently placed over Seibrik in the Florida region. Ice Climbers is a huge threat to Metaknight.
These results aren't fluke. It's growth. It's people expanding their characters without a massive army behind. Not only is it possible for people to place over MK, but it is happening on a very consistent basis and rapidly increasing as time moves forward.
This is simply Overswarm being a drama queen and trying to capture the audience's attention by showing a statistical fact that does not directly relate to MK's existence.
A more accurate description of what that chart shows is the initial boom of the game. Then slowly but surely all of the MELEE players who did not like the change in the game dropped from the scene.
Bad, Overswarm. Bad.
What does an argument changing have to do with anything if previous arguments still directly answer "new" arguments that are being made?
No, Metaknight does not need to be banned.
You simply want him banned based on your interpretation of how you believe the metagame of Brawl should exist. Do not impose your ideals as absolute and suggest such a need when many people will share many different and equally as important views on the subject. This has been my main quarrel with you, Overswarm. Your ideas are not superior. They are views. There are many paths of finding a solution and yours is simply one path.
Metaknight does not need a "magical counter". This emphasis on finding someone who can defeat Metaknight is, again, you being discontent with a best character existing in competitive fighting game. You disagree with its setup and wish you establish a new one.
By people, I hope you mean the SBR. The majority public does not whine about LGL's or gliding limits. At Pound 4, none of these "problems" even presented themselves. However, most pro-ban players will use what they can get as ammunition to present a case against Metaknight. In reality, these "issues" only reveal themselves once in a blue moon.
The fact that multiple characters can use the same technique is a good one. It means that it isn't character specific. The fact that Metaknight can do it the best simply reestablishes why he is #1 in the tier list.
I disagree. I don't think the character is the problem. I truly believe that the majority of the community was spoiled by Melee's metagame and wishes to have a repeat metagame with Brawl. That and the majority will have scrubby mentalities when it comes to dealing with the best character in a game just like EVERY other fighting game community.
Again. Here we disagree. Our views differ.
Now you're just appealing to emotion. I guess you've accepted at this point in your argument that you're only going to give your opinions and attempt to cheerlead the rest of your argument as a conclusion.
Way to stray from logic. Though it's a good political move if you want to attract the masses.
