since OS's thread isn't being closed and im not cool with OS's **** moves lately
heres my immediate response after hearing OS
First line and we encounter a major problem. Overswarm pretty much admits that Metaknight not falling from his throne is a problem. Him, and most pro-ban players, have a major issue with a fighting game having a dominant top character (probably because of Melee). However, as I've said time and time again, a game with a clear cut best character is perfectly fine. There have been dozens of extremely popular fighting games that have clear cut best characters. There have been dozens more where only 2 or 3 of the cast was truly tourny viable.Many predictions have been made about the possibility of Metaknight falling from his throne, but as of yet all have been incorrect.
One character (MK) having clear dominance over the rest of the cast isn't anything new. It's new if the only competitive fighting game you've touched before Brawl was Melee.
Nothing to argue here. Statistical facts and a brief interpretation that I agree with.To give you a bit of history, Ankoku's chart has had two total characters taking the #1 spot:
Snake
Metaknight
It was originally held by Snake, then quickly taken over by Metaknight. Since then, Metaknight hasn't dropped from that spot, and has had a point total that is generally around the combined points total of the 2nd and 3rd ranked characters. Even while Snake was in first, MK was in 2nd. The third place spot has been taken by Diddy, Dedede, Falco, and Wario (Wario tied with D3 at that point, technically).
Other characters have risen and fallen dramatically, but for all intents and purposes there have been a grand total of two characters that could be considered "blue chip stocks": Snake and MK.
For future reference I'll only quote statements that I have an issue with. If it isn't quoted, assume that I agree with the statement or the statement is a statistical fact.
Yes, the best character in a game will dictate which characters in the rest of the cast are tournament viable. This is common sense but it seems that Overswarm is painting this fact in a negative light.From this we can also see that one of two things are happening:
A) Metaknight has dictated which characters are viable at both high level of play (tournaments with 150+ players) and all levels of play combined (ankoku's chart)
It is not coincidental at all. I'm pretty sure Overswarm knows this so throwing in this "alternative" option is just for flavor. Again, it seems that OS has an issue with this fact in general.or
B) It's merely coincidental that the characters that do better against Metaknight have higher rankings and those that do poorly have lower rankings.
Metaknight dominates Dedede hardcore. This isn't a problem and it isn't surprising.Looking at the list, you can see several characters that could otherwise be viable that aren't nearly as high as others and it appears to be solely due to MK's influence. While it may be a coincidence, it is highly unlikely. Do we really think King Dedede is 8th best, or has Metaknight taken the wind out of his sails?
Zangief in SF4 is a powerhouse in nearly all of his match-ups. Except one. Sagat. People argue that this match-up is either 70-30 or 80-20 in Sagats favor. The point is the best character in the game, Sagat, directly counters Zangief. Let's stop here. Is that a problem? I don't think so.
So then the next argument is, "But Zangief would be so much more tourny viable if Sagat was gone!" The answer to that comment is, "You are correct,", but what does removing the best character in the game in order to cater Zangief and the rest of the cast being inferior have to do with Sagat as an individual? Nothing.
Another issue I have with Overswarm is his attempt to cater to the rest of the cast; to let more characters have more chances of winning because that's what a fun game is all about. That's scrubby mentality. The point of having a "best character" in any game is the fact that they dominate the majority of the cast; if they didn't, they probably wouldn't be the best. What is occurring, still, is a conflict of how Overswarm views the metagame and how it should exist. He simply disagrees with the nature of a game where clear dominance exist. Is he wrong in his thinking? Nah, but I think maybe due to his lack of experience with 3rd party fighting games with the added fact that he participated in the Melee metagame sways his judgement in the creation of the metagame he wants to be portrayed for Brawl.
Yes, Metaknight is still the clear winner. Putting emphasis on the fact that Metaknight is the best character in the game isn't an argument.Since Metaknight started though, he's only had one bad tournament (http://allisbrawl.com/event.aspx?id=3834, Winter Games Fest), which shows itself as a clear outlier. Snake, his #2, has beaten MK's score in only one of the 8 events with more than 150 players. If you take that one moment and then compare it to all of Metaknight's placements, Metaknight is still a clear winner. Metaknight's point placements beat Snake's best all-time point placement 5/8 times.
However, the fact is that a non-MK user has recently started to dominate MK in tournament. Not only has this Diddy dominated MK, but he has proven that Diddy can handle the rest of the cast just as well. The reason the results show a small spike with Diddy is because one player is using Diddy's potential at a much higher level calibur.Everyone's excited about Diddy, but Diddy's results are incredibly poor across the board at large tournaments. Diddy has one spike in point placement, and even then it is still overshadowed by MK.
Claiming that Diddy is the new MK counter is just as silly as it was when people said it about Snake or Ice Climbers. The data just isn't there. Diddy's massive point spike was due to one player and even that player claims it is even.
You cannot ignore the fact that a Diddy took 1st place in one of the biggest national brawl tournaments up to date.
The argument, "But it's one person," or "ADHD is special" is bologna. What ADHD did was show to the smash scene that Diddy has the potential and capabilities of wreaking absolute havoc in the game including against Metaknight himself.
Ally's Snake, taking 3rd at the same tournament, is the same example with ADHD. These players aren't special. We all picked up the disc and started from the same point; these two players simply have put the most effort in to opening and exploring a character that is more complex and harder to use than MK.
A very, very poor statement here.Diddy is not the magic pill for metaknight that some people think he is. ADHD is just really good and knows the matchup. Just like Ally didn't bring on the reign of the Snake, ADHD will not be followed by an army of monkeys.
ADHD practically climbed Mount Everest and said, "Look. I can do it. So can you." The argument you make here is just... so weak I'm not sure how to respond to it. You're pretty much saying, "ADHD is really good at the game in terms of skill and is knowledgeable in terms of the matchup" as if no one else is allowed or capable of duplicating the same attributes.
There is no army behind ADHD or Ally because it's simply harder to do. Ally and ADHD have been spending their entire Brawl career perfecting match-ups, improving, discovering, etc. Their popularity can not match the popularity of Metaknight. Thus Metaknight's metagame increased at a substantial rate thanks to his popularity and M2K's extensive usage with him. Combine that with Metaknight's ease of use and you have your perfect Metaknight army.
Mind you, the best character army is very normal in all fighting games. This character is the staple character people surround their match-ups around when they are attempting to break the high tier barrier with a lower tiered character. Nothing new here.
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Breaking here to finish talking about the rest of the post in the next post below. Try to refrain from posting anything if you can.
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This is where we massively disagree on how the metagame will be shaped.We have no data and I mean none that implies anything will change in a way that hurts MK's dominance. In fact, results show a RISE in metaknight usage AND victory. You cannot claim that the Metaknight issue can be ignored simply because Ally's Snake won one event and ADHD's Diddy won another when no one else has come even close to emulating them. Over the course of Brawl's lifespan, Metaknight gave everyone a headstart and is still smoking the entire cast. He beats Snake and Diddy's points combined on Ankoku's chart. If you combined Snake and Diddy they'd barely be out-ranking Metaknight. If you combined Snake, Wario, and Dedede's points from 150+ player tournaments, they'd barely be losing to Metaknight's ranking, and Dedede had a free tournament since MK wasn't present in the top 8!
Firstly, you state again how MK's dominance is not affected showing your dislike for a character's dominance in a fighting game period. I addressed this issue above.
The Metaknight "issue" that you refer to is very unclear at this point. Ally's Snake and ADHD's Diddy is proof that there are characters who can go toe-to-toe and beat both Metaknight and the rest of the cast. It's actually perfect example of how players can break through the Metaknight barrier. ADHD was not this dominant when the MK issue was around a year ago, however one year later, look at him. Growing. Growing = healthy.
Metaknight had a headstart because he was the best character in the game. The best character being overused and overplayed and thus outspeeding the metagame race is not surprising nor abnormal.
Red light. This is Overswarm hinting again to his true intention: attempting to create a metagame that is similar in nature of Melee's. However you cannot ignore the growth that stares us in the face. Diddy is a threat. Snake is a threat. It is up to the community to pick up and possibly expand these characters. That's already 3 characters who are "viable".But in all this data, there is something very good about all of this:
The rest of the cast is very, very close together.
Snake's 19% of the points is a decent gap between D3's 9%, but other than that there is a very, very minor gap. This hints towards a possibility of a game where MULTIPLE characters are viable in high level play, rather than just Metaknight and whoever you think does well against him.
Speaking of viable, we have players like DEHF's Falco who consistently takes 1st place in West Coast. Players like Boss' Luigi and Logic's Olimar and Chu's Kirby completely dominating their scene. Riddle's Zero Suit Samus just recently placed over Seibrik in the Florida region. Ice Climbers is a huge threat to Metaknight.
These results aren't fluke. It's growth. It's people expanding their characters without a massive army behind. Not only is it possible for people to place over MK, but it is happening on a very consistent basis and rapidly increasing as time moves forward.
This is simply Overswarm being a drama queen and trying to capture the audience's attention by showing a statistical fact that does not directly relate to MK's existence.This graph uses all of Ankoku's recorded tournaments and shows a steady decline in attendance. Statistically, winter months have less entrants than spring and summer, but this graph shows the opposite. (Graph by hotgarbage)
A more accurate description of what that chart shows is the initial boom of the game. Then slowly but surely all of the MELEE players who did not like the change in the game dropped from the scene.
Bad, Overswarm. Bad.
What does an argument changing have to do with anything if previous arguments still directly answer "new" arguments that are being made?Beyond this, go back and read the arguments for banning Metaknight and the arguments against it. Listen to the podcast. Ask yourself if the pro-ban argument has changed. Then ask if the anti-ban argument has changed.
No, Metaknight does not need to be banned.Metaknight needs to be banned. The evidence people are looking for cannot physically exist. There will ALWAYS be a "what if". This is pure dominance, and any expectations of a magical counter have been and always will be a pipe dream.
You simply want him banned based on your interpretation of how you believe the metagame of Brawl should exist. Do not impose your ideals as absolute and suggest such a need when many people will share many different and equally as important views on the subject. This has been my main quarrel with you, Overswarm. Your ideas are not superior. They are views. There are many paths of finding a solution and yours is simply one path.
Metaknight does not need a "magical counter". This emphasis on finding someone who can defeat Metaknight is, again, you being discontent with a best character existing in competitive fighting game. You disagree with its setup and wish you establish a new one.
By people, I hope you mean the SBR. The majority public does not whine about LGL's or gliding limits. At Pound 4, none of these "problems" even presented themselves. However, most pro-ban players will use what they can get as ammunition to present a case against Metaknight. In reality, these "issues" only reveal themselves once in a blue moon.We've seen people arguing for ledge grab limits, for gliding limits, for banning IDC, for making Metaknight lose if the time runs out, for having a certain amount of air time available, Metaknight not being able to counterpick his opponent, and all SORTS of ridiculous things.
All of those issues have been shown to be issues in tournament by one character ONLY: Metaknight. Oddly enough, these things considered to be balance issues are not only MK only, but haven't had nearly as good of results as MK as a whole has.
The fact that multiple characters can use the same technique is a good one. It means that it isn't character specific. The fact that Metaknight can do it the best simply reestablishes why he is #1 in the tier list.
I disagree. I don't think the character is the problem. I truly believe that the majority of the community was spoiled by Melee's metagame and wishes to have a repeat metagame with Brawl. That and the majority will have scrubby mentalities when it comes to dealing with the best character in a game just like EVERY other fighting game community.These are clear indications that the character is a problem. Don't continue to beat around the bush; ban the character. Metaknight clears expectations set by all previous bannings. Items have been banned faster, stages have been banned faster, and even D3's infinite has been banned in multiple regions and none of these have even close to the amount of negative data that MK has given us.
Again. Here we disagree. Our views differ.From a historical perspective, MK meets and exceed our banning criteria. From a realistic perspective, you can see his dominance. From an originalist perspective you can see that Metaknight is clearly a game breaker. From a contructivist perspective you can see that without Metaknight, many of the game's characters can flourish at the top level of play and create a very diverse and wonderful metagame where people can love their main again.
Now you're just appealing to emotion. I guess you've accepted at this point in your argument that you're only going to give your opinions and attempt to cheerlead the rest of your argument as a conclusion.There's no reason to keep MK other than personal reasons. Most MK mains out there will never want their MK banned. Most people making money off of MK, whether it be a Snake or Diddy that would rather keep their hours of MK experience rather than fight a D3 or the MK himself, would rather keep him around.
Way to stray from logic. Though it's a good political move if you want to attract the masses.