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*NEW* matchup discussion week #5: Ice Climbers!

Denzi

Denzi

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Kickin' off round 5 with the Climbers.




Okay, the Ice Climbers. On of the few characters considered to truly counter Falco. Do we have anything on these guys, or is it really their game?

I'll post some match-up info later when I have more time.

Discuss!
 
GunmasterLombardi

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My ego...It's OVER 9000!
tbh I haven't play the ICs matchup in a long time. Last I checked this was our worse, but ppl have taken ICs to the last stock w/ Falco b4. I think we can handle this one better but it's still a counter against us.
 
J

J4pu

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DEHF said:
This match up is 55-45 ICs
Click to expand...
translation: GG we lose
lol DEHF with your match-up ratios.

Anyways, I picked up IC's and what I have a really hard time dealing with is staying in a desync pattern when I'm being constantly pelted with projectiles. So, my advice is use lots of lasers and punish when this causes them to screw up.
and don't get grabbed
 
Bloodcross

Bloodcross

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I just use MK for this MU. But for Falco...

Avoid FD at all costs. You need platforms in this MU. I like BF the most in this MU, as what I do is simply Phantasm spam on the platforms and then drop down Bair when given the opportunity. Eliminating Nana as fast as possible should be your ultimate goal. After eliminating Nana, I DON'T eliminate Solo-Popo. Just keep rinse and repeating via Lazers + Phantasm and with Jab Cancel to Grabs in the process. Haha
 
MetalMusicMan

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I play against Future's Ice Climbers quite a bit (about once a week), and I can't really see this being better than 40:60 for us, personally. I think that's probably too generous though... It's probably more like 30:70. Of course, I CP Metaknight for the matchup in tournament because it just doesn't seem like you have a fighting chance as Falco, so I'm open to discussion since I haven't played it recently.

Their grab range is terrible and they have no grab setups, but they have very good tools for forcing Falco into awkward positions, and that can make it easy for them to predict and punish with a grab.

Admitedly, Falco has more utility in this match than some give him credit for; he can laser / phantasm to stay away, and the phantasm can pop them up for combos / separation. You also have the ability to chain throw them, so long as you wait for Nana to run back and then d-throw her so that your lasers in the throw push her away again.

But, even with that... blizzard still ***** a lot of our approach options / phantasm, and you are constantly going to be under pressure because without a good air camping game; you don't have many safe options. The IC's also don't really have that big of an issue with approaching you, since they can blizzard / force you into eating up-airs fairly easily.

Even if you kill Nana, Popo can CG you to the ledge / f-smash you by himself up to what, like 50%?


Somewhere between 40:60 and 30:70... it just doesn't at all seem like we have that great of a shot at winning in most scenarios. It's like our best chance is generally "almost winning"... I still feel like 40:60 is probably to generous for us though...


I will test some more with him next week though, since I haven't played it in a while because, as I said, it was always much more practical for me to use Metaknight in this matchup in tournament.

Any tips for testing are appreciated.
 
Typ_Ex

Typ_Ex

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I would agree with dehf, if not say its even. ill say why later to increase my post count.
 
Typ_Ex

Typ_Ex

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i dont camp at all. i shoot maybe less than <5 lasers a game against them and use side-b only to recover.
 
G

gunterrsmash01

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Falco is quite good at seperating ICs and can never get grabbed if he justs camps right. So he can make up for stocks if he gets grabbed. Unfortunaly falco doesnt have many things safe on block vs ICs so he gets grabbed alot. and blizzard gives falco a lot of trouble sometimes. However all it really takes is to get nana gimped and then their stock is gone.

Coupled with the fact that Falco can sort of CG ICs with the lasers hitting nana, i think this matchup is 45-55 ICs favor or even.
 
00-Zero

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MetalMusicMan said:
I play against Future's Ice Climbers quite a bit (about once a week), and I can't really see this being better than 40:60 for us, personally.
Click to expand...
Lol then he's doing something wrong. This is the guy that trolls the IC boards that you're talking about. If played right, I hardly see it as 30:70 to be honest.
Their grab range is terrible and they have no grab setups, but they have very good tools for forcing Falco into awkward positions, and that can make it easy for them to predict and punish with a grab.
Click to expand...
Our standing grab range is bad. There are numerous things we can do to get around this. Pivot grabbing for one, works wonders against a forward/up B happy Falco. Also, we have a few things we can do that can pretty much guarantee a grab. Don't forget Falco, being one of our easiest to chain grab. Staying desynced isn't too much of a problem either because our ice blocks eat your lasers, and alternating between ib's and shielding, your laser doesn't really do you any justice. Your reflector probably works the best in this MU. I'd advise using it sparingly though as it's not very hard to shield grab or just avoid and get a grab.

Admitedly, Falco has more utility in this match than some give him credit for; he can laser / phantasm to stay away, and the phantasm can pop them up for combos / separation. You also have the ability to chain throw them, so long as you wait for Nana to run back and then d-throw her so that your lasers in the throw push her away again.
Click to expand...
Play a better IC main and you'll find out that these moves aren't as handy as you'd like to think. We could easily stay desynced under a platform and block your lasers with powershielding, ice blocks, and short hopped ice blocks. All the while being able to keep the platform above us open with up tilts.

But, even with that... blizzard still ***** a lot of our approach options / phantasm, and you are constantly going to be under pressure because without a good air camping game; you don't have many safe options. The IC's also don't really have that big of an issue with approaching you, since they can blizzard / force you into eating up-airs fairly easily.
Click to expand...
This is true. Also, most Falcos don't really know what to do when nana shoots an IB and popo follows behind it. It usually leads to a grab or an up air. Falco has a hard time stopping us if we're constantly pressuring him.

Even if you kill Nana, Popo can CG you to the ledge / f-smash you by himself up to what, like 50%?
Click to expand...
Actually, this isn't quite true. From 0%, and with a more stale down throw, we can sopo dthrow you all the way up to "Falco - 87% [27 Times thrown]"
 
MetalMusicMan

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00-Zero, epic misunderstanding?... lmfao. Somehow you misunderstood my post to think that I was saying we ***** IC's? I don't know how you managed that... :\

MetalMusicMan said:
...it just doesn't seem like you have a fighting chance as Falco...
Click to expand...
I was saying I don't think it's better than 40:60 for Falco, meaning that I think it's at least 60:40 Ice Climber's favor.

And regarding Future, he trolls all day but he is VERY good and has no problem chain throwing the crap out of anything in his path.
 
00-Zero

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Oh no, I understood that. I was just clearing a few misunderstandings up. I didn't mean any offensiveness in my post at all.
Cg's are only part of IC game play though. You have to be good with desyncing and using the rest of their general and advanced tactics to actually get the grab.
However, about the trolling. It's generally frowned upon for being irritating and immature instead of smiled upon.
Trolls belong at aib or something lol.
 
DEHF

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Do the Falco players that think the match up is so horrible know how to break out of grabs? If you can break out of grabs it's makes it much more difficult for them to chain grab you even if they actually get a grab on you.

F tilt is very good in this match up it racks damage and can't be punished with a normal shield. In order to punish it they have to power shield it which is difficult since it's pretty fast or grab the f tilt hit box with grab armor which will probably never happen.
 
MetalMusicMan

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Bloodcross said:
This is not even people.
Click to expand...
I agree :\ It's not at all even, I just don't think there's any way that it is better than 40:60 for us. It would take some very hard evidence to prove otherwise...


00-Zero said:
Oh no, I understood that. I was just clearing a few misunderstandings up. I didn't mean any offensiveness in my post at all.
Cg's are only part of IC game play though. You have to be good with desyncing and using the rest of their general and advanced tactics to actually get the grab.
However, about the trolling. It's generally frowned upon for being irritating and immature instead of smiled upon.
Trolls belong at aib or something lol.
Click to expand...


Yeah he can DC and he uses up air to punish air camp attempts and all that. He's definitely legit. Future plays a lot of other characters too.

You'd probably have to meet him in real life to understand how hilarious he is / not be offended by his trolling. Most things he says are so dumb and meant to be ********, but that might not come through online :p

Anyway yeah, I've had conversations with Future and Lain about how the IC's aren't good because of the CG, they're good because of the threat of it. A lot of their damage comes from the rest of their move set though.

I would say I have just about as much info about the IC's as I can without learning how to play them myself to learn every detail.


DEHF said:
Do the Falco players that think the match up is so horrible know how to break out of grabs? If you can break out of grabs it's makes it much more difficult for them to chain grab you even if they actually get a grab on you.
Click to expand...

You can't break out of the grab if they don't give you any time to break out... sure at really low %'s you can, but you can't break out when they are in the middle of a throw animation. You can only break out when you are being held / pummeled. People like Lain and Future CG very fast so breaking out is literally impossible most of the time.
 
DEHF

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Zero Falco should never be grabbed out of side b when he's on the stage. The only way that could happen is if they side bed into ICs from nearly the full length of the side b, which would be the Falco playing the match up incorrectly.

The thing you said about Popo chain grabbing falco from 0-87 will never happen. Even if they get the grab from 0 they wouldn't be able to finish it since it is a running chain grab and will probably only get about 30% if you somehow manage to get a grab at the very edge of the stage.

Metal most ICs grab you when they're de synced, meaning they have to wait for nana to sync back with them in order to chain grab. That should give you a good amount of time to break out as long as you're not near kill % already. You almost never get grabbed by synced ICs
 
Z'zgashi

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I've always thought this MU to be 35:65 or 40:60 Ice imo
 
J

J4pu

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DEHF said:
Zero Falco should never be grabbed out of side b when he's on the stage. The only way that could happen is if they side bed into ICs from nearly the full length of the side b, which would be the Falco playing the match up incorrectly.
Click to expand...
True, but that doesn't mean IC's will let phantasm go unpunished, a simple blizzard > Uair/Usmash will see to that

DEHF said:
The thing you said about Popo chain grabbing falco from 0-87 will never happen. Even if they get the grab from 0 they wouldn't be able to finish it since it is a running chain grab and will probably only get about 30% if you somehow manage to get a grab at the very edge of the stage.

Metal most ICs grab you when they're de synced, meaning they have to wait for nana to sync back with them in order to chain grab. That should give you a good amount of time to break out as long as you're not near kill % already. You almost never get grabbed by synced ICs
Click to expand...
IC's can walk their SoPo CG same as we can walk ours, will it reach 87%? no, but you won't be hitting the end of the stage as quickly as you'd like to.
If the first grab is gotten at low percent IC player just does SoPo CG until Nana is ready to do the normal one, if not then you're at a high percent, I hope you have God fingers to mash out before Nana catches up, I don't know about you, but I'm not Boss or DMG. Anyways just because you release before Nana can be prepared to get the grab doesn't mean Nana won't be there in time to punish your grab release lag.
 
MetalMusicMan

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DEHF said:
Metal most ICs grab you when they're de synced, meaning they have to wait for nana to sync back with them in order to chain grab. That should give you a good amount of time to break out as long as you're not near kill % already. You almost never get grabbed by synced ICs
Click to expand...
Perhaps my mashing techniques need to be honed further-- I will test this. However, I would like to know your thoughts on the following as well:

What about at lower percents when they can grab with Popo, single chain grab to 40-ish while Nana catches up, then string it into a normal chain grab?

I'm pretty sure that there is no way out of that, right?... if there is then I'm doing something very wrong and would like to know about it :D
 
DEHF

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J4pu Falco is invincible for about the beginning 1/3 of his side b. If you're playing ICs you would only side b if they're close to you, if Falco gets grabbed out of side b that means that they did it into ICs when they were far away from him.

I might be wrong, but after a certain % they have to do running chain grab on Falco or else he'll jump out

Metal Popo has to stop doing the d throw chain grab in order for nana to sync with him which means you still have enough time to break out.
 
00-Zero

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DEHF said:
Zero Falco should never be grabbed out of side b when he's on the stage. The only way that could happen is if they side bed into ICs from nearly the full length of the side b, which would be the Falco playing the match up incorrectly.
Click to expand...
Any good Ice Climber main can pivot grab a Falco at any point of his phantasm after that 1/3 if it's used to hit them. If it's being used to get away from above, it can be hit by an up tilt, up air, upb, and can be blocked if it's used towards us with blizzard and previously mentioned, pivot grab.


The thing you said about Popo chain grabbing falco from 0-87 will never happen. Even if they get the grab from 0 they wouldn't be able to finish it since it is a running chain grab and will probably only get about 30% if you somehow manage to get a grab at the very edge of the stage.
Click to expand...
First off, we can cg you to 25% without even having to run once. Just by taking a slight step forward after the d throw. After 25%, we have to dash after the d throw, which can be done up to 87%, or until you run out of stage. That add up to a much greater damage than your proclaimed 50%.

Metal most ICs grab you when they're de synced, meaning they have to wait for nana to sync back with them in order to chain grab. That should give you a good amount of time to break out as long as you're not near kill % already. You almost never get grabbed by synced ICs
Click to expand...
If we're grabbing you while we're desynced, and you're not at killing percent, you're more than likely below 87% and can be down thrown until nana has a chance to catch up, because she shouldn't be to far away. Don't forget, if we grab you at a low percent, we can choose to either down throw you, or we can buffer our throws leaving just about no possibility of breaking out if they are done consistently.
 
MetalMusicMan

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DEHF said:
Metal Popo has to stop doing the d throw chain grab in order for nana to sync with him which means you still have enough time to break out.
Click to expand...
Enough time to mash out above 40%? Maybe I have overestimated the amount of time it takes for her to resync. One more thing I need to test further :p


Thanks for the info :)
 
G

gunterrsmash01

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Zero: Now your just theory crafting, i have never seen someone pivot grab falco's phantasm during the middle of it and not the end, and even if one can master it, falco would be doing many different things and not just spamming phantasm, so the ICs wouldnt be able to pivot grab falco so easily, its called conditioning, falco's actually got a decent amount of options vs IC so he doesn't have to commit to phantasm, its very easy to condition IC players and then throw out a phantasm that hits them. Blizzard is the most practical way to punish phantasm anyways

also if ICs are grabbing the edge, wait for the frames to go and start jabbing, it should hit them and possibly gimp nana. ICs are really bad on the edge.
 
DEHF

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If falco player is grabbed out of his side b on stage then he is doing something wrong. If he's that far away from ICs he's other options than to just side b into him.

What you said about grabbing falco when you're desynced is very dependent. If falco is at like 30 and you're able to down throw chain grab him, it would mean that your down throw is very stale.
 
Teh Future

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LOL this matchup is stupid.

And ya will you are bad at mashing ive only met a couple people that can mash corectly but when you do you will almost always get out if you are grabbed before around 40.
 
O

omega zero

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I'm not very knowledgable about this Matchup, but wouldn't it be a good idea to forgo the dash-attack? It's too easy to shield grab.
 
Vlade

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I think people are underrating falco's sideb, ice climber players claim that it's so easy to predict but it's not when you're versing a good player.

The fact that ice blocks cancel lasers is redundant because falco can aim his lasers just above the ice blocks and they'll still hit the ice climbers screwing up their desyncs.

Gattling combo into shield ***** them. Normal characters can grab the dash attack, but not ice climbers since nana lags by like 6 frames I think which means the usmash is guaranteed to hit if they try and grab, and if they shield the whole thing then I'm pretty sure can't be punished, at least with a grab.
 
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