Snake vs. Olimar

Underload · Feb 5, 2010

Discuss the Olimar matchup in here. Discussion is open indefinitely. Don't be afraid to post.

Bulletpoints:

Unfortunately, this matchup comes down to camping. The majority of the match will be spent trying to gain an edge via Pikmin / grenades.
At low percents, DO NOT GET GRABBED. A half-decent Olimar will get 30% off of one grab, the only advice that we can give is to not let yourself get into that situation.
At low percents, you also want to worry about Pikmin, especially whites. If you can, take a second to jab them off of you, since it's important that you preserve the first 60% or so as long as possible.
After about 120%, however, just ignore the Pikmanz. You're well within kill range, and taking time to jab them off would only leave you susceptible to a kill move.
On the plus side, you can get tons of damage off of dthrow techchases. Olimar has pathetic rolls, so if you have good reactions you can get an easy 30% per grab yourself.
Try to avoid approaching. In some matchups it's tolerable, but Olimar will only feed off of it. Stand your ground, and don't ever get greedy for the kill.
Punish Olimar's landings, especially whistle spammers. Pivot grabs (and grabs in general) are your best friend, since Olimar sucks at landing just as much as Snake does.
Stay on the ground. Using your aerials will only serve to get you punished. They really are useless.
To edgeguard Olimar, you need to be tight on timing. The obvious answer to edgeguarding is to grab the ledge and gimp his recovery, but Olimar can usually wait out your invincibility, and at the very least stage spike you. Mortars are your best friends if you aren't going for the gimp, and surprisingly nikitas also. Watch for purples, smart Olimars will throw them at you to force you off the ledge. Finally, bair if you get the opportunity. It works wonders.
Stay away from Halberd in this matchup. Olimar is just as good on it as you are. Counterpicking Frigate Orpheon might not be a bad choice.
The consensus on this matchup is about 55:45 in Olimar's favor. Have a problem with it? Please tell us your thoughts, I can change this at any time.

Notable Posts:

SuSa said:
Go to the DDD boards, read their matchup on Olimar, copy it. Apply it to Snake, **** harder because we're Snake and not DDD.

<_<

Can't believe I used to think this was near unwinnable hard. >.<

EDIT:
Specifically what CPU had to say.

The Approach:
The number one reason Dedede is believed to lose this matchup is the amount of damage you take and level of difficulty it is to approach olimar. Me and fiction have derived a solid way to approach olimar. First and most importantly, you need to establish the mindset that the pikmin are not real(except purple). Ignore all pikmin that are thrown at you. Don't shield them, don't try to get them off of you, not even the whites. Run right through them and go to olimar. Take note of how many purples he has and where they are in the lineup! This is absolutely essential. You need to powershield the purples like you would falco's laser.
Now that you've gotten to olimar, you can notice that he has 2 or less pikmin because they are all on your body. Stop JUST outside of olimar's grab range. Most olimars will either dash grab or pivot grab at this point. When you get into the range I mentioned, throw out an ftilt. This will stop a dash grab or a standing grab and even an fsmash. If olimar pivot grabs take a few steps forward and start spamming that ftilt. At this point olimar is in a very difficult situation. He can either roll around you or try to jump over you. The best thing to do is expect the roll because it's harder to react to than the jump. If he rolls turn around and grab him and then backthrow him, you are now in a gimping opportunity. If he jumps, he's either going to try to jump all the way over you or he's going to attack your shield. If he attacks your shield with anything but nair, ftilt out of shield and repeat the process I just described. If he jumps clear over you follow him and wait for him to land. Try to grab or begin spacing your ftilt again. Olimar has absolutely NO safe options when you're close to him, and this makes the match very fun.

Dedede's advantage over Olimar's grab:
Olimar's grab is flawed and I completely credit fiction for figuring it out. As of now, the only dedede's that know this are me fiction and teba, and now you. TURN YOUR VOLUME UP WHEN YOU FIGHT OLIMAR!. You know that little sound olimar makes when he grabs? You need instant tech skill reaction time to it, start practicing your reaction to that sound. You either need to spot dodge on reaction or roll around olimar on reaction. If you're closer to olimar you roll if you're farther you spot dodge. If you do it on reaction, dedede's roll is faster than the grab and his spot dodge lasts longer than the grab. This is an amazing flaw in Olimar's gameplay against dedede because it takes out his only close quarters advantage. If you elect to spot dodge, ftilt immediately! If you roll around him, grab him and throw him off, another gimping opportunity.

Where we win the matchup, offstage:
Now is the most important part and I'm sure you're already good at it so i'll just throw out some advice. If oli recovers low your only choice it to try to bair his jump, but what we're actually hoping for is that olimar recovers high, which most do. Jump BELOW olimar and uair! Olimar CANNOT whistle the whole uair and the last hit will send him further offstage allowing you to grab the edge and end the stock. Practice spacing the up air right so you can send him in the correct direction, you obviously don't want to send him back to the stage. Just takes some practice, you'll get it.

Summary:
Ignore the pikmin, let them grab your body so that olimar doesn't have his weapons. Powershield the purple throw. Ftilt ftilt ftilt. The whole matchup is ftilt, it's the best move you have and it outranges every single one of olimar's moves and it kills any pikmin he tries to throw
55:45 Dedede

Click to expand...

Bizkit047 said:
K fine. For once I'll give my input, since the only two offline Olimars that beat me are Dabuz and IcyLight, and I go back and forth with Icy. Let's see...

Matchup Pros:
Can camp fairly evenly with Olimar
Dthrow can **** Olimar
Olimar is light

Matchup Cons:
Olimar greatly reduces approach options
Olimar has 0 to 30%-50% grab combos on Snake
Pikmin Toss can stop nade camping

When at 0%, don't get grabbed. One grab and you take at least 30% damage if the Olimar knows what they're doing. If you do get grabbed, I believe the best option is to Nade (buffer it). If the Olimar catches on, it's baited though. So mix it up. Double jump helps too. DO NOT air dodge land from a throw, that's just asking for a re-grab or smash. According to Icy, Olimar has to react to how you DI the 0% throw to effectively combo Snake.

Camping Olimar is really tricky. Pikmin Toss can stop your nade tossing and cause you to get blowm up instead. Tricky use of nade cooking will be required here, and being prepared to deal with if the nade fails to go far away from you. Dsmash helps grabby Olimars from grabbing you a little. If you see Olimar having any whites, be prepared to get them off immediately. White pikmin do an insane amount of damage to you if latched on. You can jab them off most of the time. Utilting works too, however, it stales utilt, so use sparingly. A few other moves get them off, but they are very not safe as far as I know. Maybe Dtitlt? Also keep in mind Olimar's pikmin toss from a jump has lag, so that's a "safe" point to go in for a grab if you're not too far away.

Approaching Olimar is really tricky and I wouldn't recommend it if you don't need to. If you must, you're going to want to never approach with any kind of aerial move. That's grabbing material. If you know Olimar is going for a grab and it'll miss, go for a dash attack. It punishes whiffed grabs really well. If you have any other plans of approaching (such as with ftilts) I would strongly recommend having a nade in front of you near Olimar as to prevent easy grabbing. Do not DACUS too much either, that's easily grabbable and baited.

The greatest chance for damage against Olimar is when you Dthrow him. His roll goes absolutely nowhere. However, some Olimars mix it up really well, so be on guard. A method of beating tech chasing is to just get up (not get up attack) and do a Utilt. So be prepared for that, as well as his other options. Dthrowing near an edge can spell death for Olimar.

Which leads to edge guarding Olimar. The simplistic way if you know you're not going to gimp Olimar is to force him to Up B on stage so you can re-grab and throw off, or go for a utilt KO if he's at kill %. Beware of smart Olimars that use their purple Pikmin to throw at you while recovering. You can also put a Dsmash on the stage near the ledge while edge guarding and let Olimar Up B into it. Note that if the Olimar pikmin tosses any Pikmin on stage while recovering the Pikmin will walk back and detonate it anyway. I would strongly recommend not jumping aerials off the stage towards Olimar, as that could just lead to missing and getting spiked. An occasionally well timed Bair off stage can work though. Side B is pretty useful here too IMO. Nades on the ledge also help. Basically, do what you can to limit Olimars already limited recovery options.

I think something worth noting is Olimar in the air. Olimar, like Snake, sucks at landing. I strongly recommend going for a grab every time, it's pretty safe, especially against whistle landing spammers. Only be careful of Nair landings, which I'll discuss why soon. Other than that, Olimars air dodge is easily punishable with a grab, as is his Bair/Fair/Dair if he tries to land with those. Likewise, for landing with Snake, you're definitely going to want to be tricky and mix it up. Olimars LOVE to charge smashes while you land or go for the grab. A Bair will beat Olimars Usmash, if you can't avoid it. Pivot Nade landing helps a lot. However DO NOT air dodge land next to Olimar. That's a free Dsmash/Usmash/grab for them.

Olimar has a very gay combo where he can short hop a whistle (invincibility) then Nair the landing to a lagless smash attack (most likely Usmash). This is a very idiotic combo that leads to free KOs if you get caught in it. If you do get hit with the Nair, try to DI out of it as fast as you can so that the Usmash can't get you. If it's Dsmash then GL. If you DI it right you can grab Olimar before the smash. But do be aware of this combo, as it's very sneaky.

When Olimar is finally at kill %, don't be too anxious. Rushing in for a predictable utilt just means you're going to take 100% damage out of nowhere and die first. Be patient and wait for a mistake or set up a KO that doesn't involve slowly walking up to Olimar and going for a utilt.

One last bit of advice is to pay attention to Olimars Pikmin. It will give you an idea of what the Olimar player may do next. For example, what if you are at high % and the Olimar player has 1-3 blues lined up? It means the Olimar is going to try to grab you for a Bthrow/Fthrow KO. What if a purple is next at high %? Usmash or grab to uthrow/dthrow. Yellows and Reds belong to smashes/aerials. Whites will be tossed at you everytime. If you know what the Olimar is going to do next due to Pikmin, you can survive a very long time against them.

Summary:

Don't get grabbed as much as possible
Don't approach if you don't have to
Get white pikmin off immediately
Dthrow can **** Olimar
Learn the best ways to edge guard Olimar
Mix up landings
Pay attention to next Pikmin in line to predict Olimar better
Punish Olimars landings
Approach carefully with nades and well timed dashes
Do not use aerials often

K done. Probably forgot some stuff, but oh well. Take it or leave it.

professor mgw said:
Bizkit pretty much summerized the importance of this match up, good job.

As he said take advantage of olimar's recovery,its obvious and terrible...period. DO NOT GET GRABBED! if you get grabbed at 0% a good olimar will **** with from30-50% damage, depending on where at on the stage this is occuring. It is quite possible for olimar to combo into a d-air and spike you if yourt at a low% by the edge. Mortar slides are easily punished, a f-air, grab, up-smash f-smash, so watch out. It's fairly easy to **** snake off the stage, so never become predictable with your recovery, b-reversal nades are a good choice.

dabuz said:
50-50, both characters have about the same ability to punish each other badly if either one gets in the air, but olimar has twice as easy time getting snake in the air...but needs twice the damage to kill him compared to snake killing oli, they also have stupid **** they can do with their grabs to each other, and when it comes to close, mid, and long range combat on the ground it is only slightly tipped games of rock, paper, scissors with all their moves and options, it would be olimar's advantage 60-40 without snakes amazing survivability compared to olimar's, they also have good ways to gimp the other character

-NaPPy said:
uh. Olimar can out camp snake way too easily to make this an even matchup. Snake has to get close and he takes a bunch of damage in the process where olimar can most likely shut down whatever he tries to do with a pivot grab or well spaced attack.

And its not like its hard to kill snake, its just as hard to kill olimar. Not because of his weight or anything, but because of how hard it is to tilt a smart one for the kill. He's too small and hard to hit when he's camping correctly.

shmot said:
60:40 imo. mostly because oli should manage to force an approach out of snake (pikmin>nades from a distance), and snake really sucks at approaching.

pikmin stop nades, diminish moves, and do damage. freakin annoying. most annoying thing is keeping your cool though, and remembering they arent doing much to you (cept the whites, get them off asap). rush in and do something obvious and youll get grabbed/comboed, and then he'll run away and continue the process.

when approaching (and chances are you WILL approach) do so carefully, and make sure you know his grab range. standing outside it and baiting a grab can work. otherwise, time your spotdodge to dodge his grabs and you can punish (you must spotdodge right before the pikmin grabs you, the time window is quite small). dash attack and MORTAR SLIDE are actually surprisingly good here; namely because theyre much quicker than olis grabs and have moving hitboxes, that will get pulled to oli if he tries to grab you. remember this and use it; just dont get predictable.

grabbing oli is pretty ****, but ive never seen anything close to the '0-death' grab that has been claimed. whatever. you get a guaranteed ftilt no matter what happens.

never recover into him, wavebounce and stuffs to get to ground. mines near the edge, ledgehopping and GRABBING are great for making his life difficult when recovering. when hes up in the air dont let him get down. ever.

oli has very little priority on most moves. yellow/purple pikmin are the exception here. dont try and go through them, cause most of the time you wont. keep an eye on his pikmin and abuse this where possible. and pikmin are INVULNERABLE while grabbing. if you cant reach oli, dont try to beat it (he doesnt have grab armour).

on FD the snake can try and camp, but dont bother on anything smaller. bf is suicide. youll get camped and comboed to hell and back. id cp fd myself, purely cause of the size and lack of landing options, but stages like frigate can work well. halberd is always good for us, but its small size and high ration of purple pikmin (from memory) work well for him too. pretty sure lylat works the same way. keep this stuff in mind when cping; youll die earlier also.

but yeah, camping and approaching are just too hard in the mu. i mean, they can be done, but the snake player has too work much harder than the oli if the oli chooses to be gay. when hes up in the air, make sure he dies. otherwise youre screwed.

60:40 oli.

-Hilt- said:
Every single time I come in the snake boards

there's a new thread about the Olimar matchup

About what was said about stages, yeah Frigate is probably your best pick against us. Force to the right side but don't immediately try to get us off. Just pressure us closer and closer to the ledge with ftilt since we have to get away from there as fast as possible. The second phase isn't the greatest for us against snake as well, however the mercy platforms do help us more than they do against other characters.

FD is an okay choice I suppose for you.

Halberd is probably your second pick against us if we ban frigate, maybe lylat. But halberd does not give an increase in any pikmin, although a lot of people do get that mixed up. Brinstar is good against us too but not many people know about it.

Delfino and (if it's legal) pictochat are my cps against snake. Maybe battlefield.

Bizkit047 · Feb 5, 2010

K fine. For once I'll give my input, since the only two offline Olimars that beat me are Dabuz and IcyLight, and I go back and forth with Icy. Let's see...

Matchup Pros:
Can camp fairly evenly with Olimar
Dthrow can **** Olimar
Olimar is light

Matchup Cons:
Olimar greatly reduces approach options
Olimar has 0 to 30%-50% grab combos on Snake
Pikmin Toss can stop nade camping

When at 0%, don't get grabbed. One grab and you take at least 30% damage if the Olimar knows what they're doing. If you do get grabbed, I believe the best option is to Nade (buffer it). If the Olimar catches on, it's baited though. So mix it up. Double jump helps too. DO NOT air dodge land from a throw, that's just asking for a re-grab or smash. According to Icy, Olimar has to react to how you DI the 0% throw to effectively combo Snake.

Camping Olimar is really tricky. Pikmin Toss can stop your nade tossing and cause you to get blowm up instead. Tricky use of nade cooking will be required here, and being prepared to deal with if the nade fails to go far away from you. Dsmash helps grabby Olimars from grabbing you a little. If you see Olimar having any whites, be prepared to get them off immediately. White pikmin do an insane amount of damage to you if latched on. You can jab them off most of the time. Utilting works too, however, it stales utilt, so use sparingly. A few other moves get them off, but they are very not safe as far as I know. Maybe Dtitlt? Also keep in mind Olimar's pikmin toss from a jump has lag, so that's a "safe" point to go in for a grab if you're not too far away.

Approaching Olimar is really tricky and I wouldn't recommend it if you don't need to. If you must, you're going to want to never approach with any kind of aerial move. That's grabbing material. If you know Olimar is going for a grab and it'll miss, go for a dash attack. It punishes whiffed grabs really well. If you have any other plans of approaching (such as with ftilts) I would strongly recommend having a nade in front of you near Olimar as to prevent easy grabbing. Do not DACUS too much either, that's easily grabbable and baited.

The greatest chance for damage against Olimar is when you Dthrow him. His roll goes absolutely nowhere. However, some Olimars mix it up really well, so be on guard. A method of beating tech chasing is to just get up (not get up attack) and do a Utilt. So be prepared for that, as well as his other options. Dthrowing near an edge can spell death for Olimar.

Which leads to edge guarding Olimar. The simplistic way if you know you're not going to gimp Olimar is to force him to Up B on stage so you can re-grab and throw off, or go for a utilt KO if he's at kill %. Beware of smart Olimars that use their purple Pikmin to throw at you while recovering. You can also put a Dsmash on the stage near the ledge while edge guarding and let Olimar Up B into it. Note that if the Olimar pikmin tosses any Pikmin on stage while recovering the Pikmin will walk back and detonate it anyway. I would strongly recommend not jumping aerials off the stage towards Olimar, as that could just lead to missing and getting spiked. An occasionally well timed Bair off stage can work though. Side B is pretty useful here too IMO. Nades on the ledge also help. Basically, do what you can to limit Olimars already limited recovery options.

I think something worth noting is Olimar in the air. Olimar, like Snake, sucks at landing. I strongly recommend going for a grab every time, it's pretty safe, especially against whistle landing spammers. Only be careful of Nair landings, which I'll discuss why soon. Other than that, Olimars air dodge is easily punishable with a grab, as is his Bair/Fair/Dair if he tries to land with those. Likewise, for landing with Snake, you're definitely going to want to be tricky and mix it up. Olimars LOVE to charge smashes while you land or go for the grab. A Bair will beat Olimars Usmash, if you can't avoid it. Pivot Nade landing helps a lot. However DO NOT air dodge land next to Olimar. That's a free Dsmash/Usmash/grab for them.

Olimar has a very gay combo where he can short hop a whistle (invincibility) then Nair the landing to a lagless smash attack (most likely Usmash). This is a very idiotic combo that leads to free KOs if you get caught in it. If you do get hit with the Nair, try to DI out of it as fast as you can so that the Usmash can't get you. If it's Dsmash then GL. If you DI it right you can grab Olimar before the smash. But do be aware of this combo, as it's very sneaky.

When Olimar is finally at kill %, don't be too anxious. Rushing in for a predictable utilt just means you're going to take 100% damage out of nowhere and die first. Be patient and wait for a mistake or set up a KO that doesn't involve slowly walking up to Olimar and going for a utilt.

One last bit of advice is to pay attention to Olimars Pikmin. It will give you an idea of what the Olimar player may do next. For example, what if you are at high % and the Olimar player has 1-3 blues lined up? It means the Olimar is going to try to grab you for a Bthrow/Fthrow KO. What if a purple is next at high %? Usmash or grab to uthrow/dthrow. Yellows and Reds belong to smashes/aerials. Whites will be tossed at you everytime. If you know what the Olimar is going to do next due to Pikmin, you can survive a very long time against them.

Summary:

Don't get grabbed as much as possible
Don't approach if you don't have to
Get white pikmin off immediately
Dthrow can **** Olimar
Learn the best ways to edge guard Olimar
Mix up landings
Pay attention to next Pikmin in line to predict Olimar better
Punish Olimars landings
Approach carefully with nades and well timed dashes
Do not use aerials often

K done. Probably forgot some stuff, but oh well. Take it or leave it.

Underload · Feb 5, 2010

You are amazing, Bizkit. I mean it. Thank you.

Turazrok · Feb 5, 2010

I had a post in the Social a while back of a bunch of stuff Olimar will do.

Underload · Feb 5, 2010

Turazrok, I was kidding about not knowing you in the MK thingy. I just wanted to look cool.

You remind me of this one post SuSa had back in the day about Oli. I gots to goes gets its!

Bizkit047 · Feb 5, 2010

So when are we gunna have a Diddy or DDD matchup discussion? Those are more important IMO. Especially since we seem to be wasting time on joke matchups like Sheik and Link.

Underload · Feb 5, 2010

It's going from the bottom of A tier, climbing up to Metaknight. After that, it'll go from the top of B tier all the way to the bottom.

professor mgw · Feb 6, 2010

Bizkit pretty much summerized the importance of this match up, good job.

As he said take advantage of olimar's recovery,its obvious and terrible...period. DO NOT GET GRABBED! if you get grabbed at 0% a good olimar will **** with from30-50% damage, depending on where at on the stage this is occuring. It is quite possible for olimar to combo into a d-air and spike you if yourt at a low% by the edge. Mortar slides are easily punished, a f-air, grab, up-smash f-smash, so watch out. It's fairly easy to **** snake off the stage, so never become predictable with your recovery, b-reversal nades are a good choice.

Berserker. · Feb 6, 2010

Yay Olimar!

I think approaching Olimar is risky. I don't wanna get grabbed especially by the blue pikmin:

Camping:
You can camp at your own risk but have a VERY SAFE distance away from Olimar. Olimar is fairly slow but he's faster than Snake BUT Snake has a DACUS but again Olimar might punish it. Olimar's long reaching Pikmins (Yellow, white pikmin) are big trouble for Snake. As for the part when the pikmins are on Snake's body, use n-air AT a safe distance. Be careful on pulling out your nades against Olimar.

Apporaching:
Use nades CAREFULLY to approach Olimar. Don't get grabbed or you'll get ***** easily. Nothing much to say. Most of it was mentioned.

Edgeguarding:
Both Olimar and Snake can do it well so let us go over each character:

Snake:
Since Olimar's recovery is terrible, edgeguarding him could be fairly easy. Use nades, mortars, mines and C4s to edgeguard Olimar. Don't think of using b-air or you might risk yourself to get meteor smashed by d-air.

Olimar:
Olimar can edgeguard Snake easily. Snake's recovery is very easy to edgeguard so Olimar can spike Snake with D-air or f-air

To solve this problem:

professor_mgw said:
never become predictable with your recovery, b-reversal nades are a good choice.

40:60 olimar, I think I agree with Bizkit about Snake and Olimar camping evenly but I'm not sure about it.

professor mgw · Feb 7, 2010

Yeah. i think 40:60 is a bit much though. maybe 45:55 oli favor. Actually all pikmin have the same grab length (exceot for purple of course) But yellow does have good range with attacks and priority.

napZzz · Feb 7, 2010

6:4 oli's favor

bizkits summary=fantastic

Yumewomiteru · Feb 7, 2010

I also think 6:4 is too much. It's most likely even, if not then 55:45 Oli imo.

Bizkit047 · Feb 7, 2010

It's definitely around 55:45 Olimar. Both characters can do stupid **** to each other. But Olimar changes Snakes game way wayyyy too much for it to be an even matchup.

Dabuz · Feb 7, 2010

50-50, both characters have about the same ability to punish each other badly if either one gets in the air, but olimar has twice as easy time getting snake in the air...but needs twice the damage to kill him compared to snake killing oli, they also have stupid **** they can do with their grabs to each other, and when it comes to close, mid, and long range combat on the ground it is only slightly tipped games of rock, paper, scissors with all their moves and options, it would be olimar's advantage 60-40 without snakes amazing survivability compared to olimar's, they also have good ways to gimp the other character

napZzz · Feb 7, 2010

uh. Olimar can out camp snake way too easily to make this an even matchup. Snake has to get close and he takes a bunch of damage in the process where olimar can most likely shut down whatever he tries to do with a pivot grab or well spaced attack.

And its not like its hard to kill snake, its just as hard to kill olimar. Not because of his weight or anything, but because of how hard it is to tilt a smart one for the kill. He's too small and hard to hit when he's camping correctly.

Zori · Feb 7, 2010

wtf its not olimars favor..... ally has beat every olimar he has played in touney only time he lost to an olimar was to dabuz and it was on WIFI even razer never loses to an olimar in tounament how can it be our favor.......come on now

demonictoonlink · Feb 7, 2010

^
This

If it was actually Olimar's favor, we would see Olimar's beating Snakes >__>

Zori · Feb 7, 2010

^

This

*waits for the biggest john i ever heard in my life*

napZzz · Feb 7, 2010

so because ally is better than every olimar out there currently it means the matchup is in snakes favor somehow? I see how that makes sense.

Zori · Feb 7, 2010

-NaPPy said:
so because ally is better than every olimar out there currently it means the matchup is in snakes favor somehow? I see how that makes sense.

ummm....yes thats excatly what this means, aren't match ups supposed to be baised on the pinnical of gameplay????? so the top oli vs the top snake would be a prime example why would you base match up ratios on average players????

Dabuz · Feb 7, 2010

pretty much, top players show the top strategies and utilize them the best, until olimars can beat snakes more often than snake beats oli its even if not slightly snake's advantage

*plays devil's advocate* but also, most matchups are only based on the slightly above average level of play if you really look at the ratios, because you have to consider that it will be very very rarely be a top oli vs top snake playing

also, razer fights none of the top 3 olis (richbrown, logic/ pyronic star, and weruop if he still plays, ever) so using him as an example is bad

Zori · Feb 7, 2010

razer beat rich and wer :/ and ally beat ps

like seriously you cant even debate this...

etecoon · Feb 7, 2010

that only shows that ally and razer are superior players, there are no olimar players on their level.

Dabuz · Feb 7, 2010

Zori said:
razer beat rich and wer :/ and ally beat ps

like seriously you cant even debate this...

:O i knew about PS and ally, it was a last match last hit game though

but never heard something about razer beating those two

oh well, all oli mains don't abuse their character enough anyway V_V

Zori · Feb 7, 2010

etecoon said:
that only shows that ally and razer are superior players, there are no olimar players on their level.

o-o alright im done. i dont even like to argue about ratios

olimars favor 60-40

Dabuz · Feb 7, 2010

ratios don't even truly exist IMO

its either even, noticeable advatange/ disadvantage, stupidly easy/ hard matchup

Zori · Feb 7, 2010

no dabuz olimar CLEARLY has an advantage over snake it shows well in tournament results how can you even think otherwise

etecoon · Feb 7, 2010

I didn't give a ratio or any opinion of the matchup, I'm just saying that you can't look at two players and say "____ beats ____ this matchup is clearly in _____'s favor!", c'mon son, don't be inui

Zori · Feb 7, 2010

so if a don't base match ups on wins and loses in tounament sets/mm's where money is on the line ,what do i base a opinion on?

etecoon · Feb 7, 2010

experience and knowledge mostly, anecdotal evidence can be supplemental but if we only based MU's on what happens between the best players of each character, we wouldn't be having the ban discussion again because diddy clearly beats MK mirite

you can use a lot of things you SEE in high level games to give you an idea of MU's, but I don't believe you can just look at the wins and losses and act as if the players had nothing to do with it...

Zori · Feb 7, 2010

your right its olimars favor

Dabuz · Feb 7, 2010

Zori said:
your right its olimars favor

agreed, obviously what all the good experienced olimars and snakes, along with all the data on what counters what in this matchup is completely ignorable

Underload · Feb 7, 2010

In the current metagame (as in, top players vs. top players), Snake has the advantage easily.

However, when you break down movesets, analyze data, and the intangibles, it looks more even.

I think it's 50:50, personally, however I don't have enough personal experience to have a respectable opinion.

OP updated.

UltimateRazer · Feb 7, 2010

I beat both Richbrown and Weurop at Genesis. Never played pyronic though.

Bizkit047 · Feb 7, 2010

It's a 55-45ish or 50-50ish matchup, which means it can go either way pretty easily, no matter who has the very slight advantage. Just like MK/Snake is "supposed" to be 55-45 MK but it can go both ways easily. I think the real problem is the massive lack of top Olimars, so the argument of why you don't see Olimars being used to attempt to counter Snake doesn't really work. But using two very top players in the country as an example of a matchup against two slightly lesser players makes no sense.

Attila_ · Feb 7, 2010

60:40 imo. mostly because oli should manage to force an approach out of snake (pikmin>nades from a distance), and snake really sucks at approaching.

pikmin stop nades, diminish moves, and do damage. freakin annoying. most annoying thing is keeping your cool though, and remembering they arent doing much to you (cept the whites, get them off asap). rush in and do something obvious and youll get grabbed/comboed, and then he'll run away and continue the process.

when approaching (and chances are you WILL approach) do so carefully, and make sure you know his grab range. standing outside it and baiting a grab can work. otherwise, time your spotdodge to dodge his grabs and you can punish (you must spotdodge right before the pikmin grabs you, the time window is quite small). dash attack and MORTAR SLIDE are actually surprisingly good here; namely because theyre much quicker than olis grabs and have moving hitboxes, that will get pulled to oli if he tries to grab you. remember this and use it; just dont get predictable.

grabbing oli is pretty ****, but ive never seen anything close to the '0-death' grab that has been claimed. whatever. you get a guaranteed ftilt no matter what happens.

never recover into him, wavebounce and stuffs to get to ground. mines near the edge, ledgehopping and GRABBING are great for making his life difficult when recovering. when hes up in the air dont let him get down. ever.

oli has very little priority on most moves. yellow/purple pikmin are the exception here. dont try and go through them, cause most of the time you wont. keep an eye on his pikmin and abuse this where possible. and pikmin are INVULNERABLE while grabbing. if you cant reach oli, dont try to beat it (he doesnt have grab armour).

on FD the snake can try and camp, but dont bother on anything smaller. bf is suicide. youll get camped and comboed to hell and back. id cp fd myself, purely cause of the size and lack of landing options, but stages like frigate can work well. halberd is always good for us, but its small size and high ration of purple pikmin (from memory) work well for him too. pretty sure lylat works the same way. keep this stuff in mind when cping; youll die earlier also.

but yeah, camping and approaching are just too hard in the mu. i mean, they can be done, but the snake player has too work much harder than the oli if the oli chooses to be gay. when hes up in the air, make sure he dies. otherwise youre screwed.

60:40 oli.

Turazrok · Feb 7, 2010

No one put my post in here :O. I was too lazy to get off my case.

gallax · Feb 8, 2010

this matchup is even. try to camp oli and you will be screwed. but fight oli up close and you have an even matchup. oli cannot throw pikmin up close since he will have huge lag and will get ftilted or or grabbed. he can fair/pivot grab/grab/etc... but baiscally as long as you keep pressuring oli you can win.

OverLade · Feb 8, 2010

When you factor in how much damage Olimar does keep in mind that Snake lives up to 180% vs Olimar living up to 110%. Olimar is easy to tech chase, so once you get in, damaging him isn't hard at all, just getting in is the problem. Imo it's prolly 55-45 one side though I can't say which.

iFudge · Feb 8, 2010

online that crap is 60:40 on a good connection. on a bad connection its 70:30.

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