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Snake vs. Olimar

**Havok**

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Ok so lets break down some basic aspects of the MU:
Snake has problems in this MU because of the following reasons... Oli's:
-Pivot grab
-Upsmash
-Red Pikmin aerial
-Random thrown purple pikmin
-Forward smash used as a bait

What does Snake have in the MU?:
-Upsmash (ill explain)
-Nair
-Down Throw--> contrary to popular belief its not AS GOOD as it seems for the same reason its supposed to be “good” ill explain in a sec...
-Forward/Back throws...
-Ftilt...
-grenade placements
-the ALMIGHTY C4
-Jab
-Dash attack...
(I know this sounds like im listing all of snakes options but im not lol)

Ok let's knock off one myth that's been flying around (not only in this MU) in this MU:
1.You can camp. Yes sir, I just said you can camp. Except it's not pulling out several grenades at once while juggling with C4, it's actually 1 SH grenade and checking. It's like testing the waters with one grenade, why check? Because a lot of Olimars will come running towards you to grab you.

SOLUTION: Ftilt as soon as they run in. They seriously have no defense against this, in fact when you see a little Oli running toward you should thank the lord because it's an auto %21

One grenade helps because it keeps the pikmin throwing in check (unless there's a purple involved). If they aren't doing anything then more grenades. If they get too close to throw pikmin AKA short hop throw = Run in an dash attack.

2.Olimars landings are hella predictable and have no real solution to dash attack (as he's landing if im not being clear)... When there is horizontal space between you and an airborne Oli = dash attack in. NO MOTAR though, unless you're absolutely certain it's going to hit. Just dash attack.

3.When Oli is directly above you, Up Smash is AMAZING because it requires no physical commitment for Snake. Think about it, he has to whistle through multiple upsmashes and THEN get to you? Which BTW %90 of the time he's going to Nair/Fair anyway so put up that shield and angle it up then X punish. If Oli's above you but there is some horizontal space, you can Nair in place, HE CAN'T WHISTLE THROUGH IT. You can also do some combination of grenade drop → Upsmash, wait for them to blow up etc etc

4. People think that Down Throw messes up Oli, it does... to some degree but like I mentioned earlier, its bad for the same reasons its good. Oli has an extremely short roll, SO short in fact, that it recovers Faster than most chars. So bad roll is actually ok, maybe even pretty good. For example you can ftilt into his shield, he can roll behind you and punish your recovery. That's how fast it is. Plus Oli's getup attack is one of the ones that Snake hates (towards you then away). So let's say you hold shield to cover the getup attack option, simple getup and I guess roll forward, it doesn't cover rolling behind you (although im messing around with walking back a bit and shielding so he won't roll behind, need more testing), Oli can actually roll behind you then roll away/forward. It's hard to catch and now you're open :(

5. I'm starting to think that back throwing them towards edges is much more efficient for dmg, it's extremely hard for them to get back on with the barrage of upsmashes/floored grenades. Just be careful of the mutiple roll, remember its fast and enough to get towards the center of the stage.

6.Up close, NEVER EVER finish an ftilt (unless he's near the edge) just keep ftilting with the Knee, should he spot dodge = 2nd hit. If you feel like he's going to grab = 2nd hit. Knee pressure keeps his shield low so you can poke him if he feels like he wants to stay inside. Up close jab is actually pretty good, it always pops him up enough for a Knee/ grab if you're ballsy enough.

7.I can't stress enough that Olimars will ALWAYS aerial you as they're landing, and if they didn't one time, they will next time!

8.This is what opened up the MU for me, the ground game was solidified but I couldn't help the feeling of being cornered all the time... Olimar can't deal with a simple Up B towards the center of the stage, his upair doesn't knock you off. Keep doing this to avoid his pikmin and to C4 pressure.

9.C4 is amazing in this MU, I actually have no good habits using C4... I just don't get it, I use it too early, too late or Not all lol In this MU just keep blowing that puppy up over and over, because it gets rid of pikmin, keeps the Oli grounded and scared. I spoke to Shu for a bit about the MU (since he plays with Brood) and he told me only ONE thing. Keep the C4 at the center of the stage, why the center? Because it limits the distance he put on you, he can't get too close and throw pikmin = C4 in his face. So he stays away, if he stays away then you can CAMP! At full range Snake wins the camping game, so Oli has to move on the ground to get close where you Cypher away towards the center again. Rinse and repeat.

10.When you get upaired, SDI that **** and Bair that little POS.

11.You shouldn't be landing anywhere near him with C4 pressure + pivots so his upsmash kills will only hit on your mistakes up close. Which btw, if you manage to block one...Roll away, you can't punish it. At all. It's not even worth it.

12.In a nutshell, the game is awkward spacing game, don't over commit on your grenade pulls and you should be able to defend yourself when he decides to come in.

13.When you have a lead try to get as much out of it as possible, wait for errors. I keep trying to continue momentum only to get upsmashed at %90 and be even with Oli again.

14.If you have a Fsmash happy Oli, a backwards grenade roll helps to blow him up but not you.

15.Uptilt is always a dangerous tool but TBH it's DAMN hard to land this thing. Maybe you can do it when he runs in...

16.If you're ever behind, BE Patient. I know its hard with all the pikmin flying around but its possible.

17.To avoid the barrage of pikmin thrown at you, I jab (before they even touch me) and flash my shield to let them pass through me (spot dodge if I see a purple)

18.I used to think trying to see Oli's Lineup of pikmin was stupid because I have other things to worry about but it's actually REALLY useful because you can attempt riskier things if you know he has a yellow/white/and sometimes red.

A funny mix up you have in all of this → the Shu (grenade hold and roll behind them) Damn risky but helps sometimes.

I'm not amazing at the MU but I don't feel so lost anymore, I'm sure im missing plenty of stuff that I'll know sooner or later but after a while the MU is kinda fun. And the other day I beat Anuar (the second best oli in SoCal) and was beating Rich Brown consistently in friendlies WITH SNAKE lol I think even Neo told me that it wasn't even worth investing time in that MU. Sorry for the messy post but I have things to do etc etc

And btw I think this MU will always be close, you won't ever be 3 Stocking a good oli.
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
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Wait, who EVER advocated it to be in snakes favor? :laugh: i've only heard ridiculous sentiments like 60:40 oli, 70:30 oli...LOL.

I would like to thank you havok for that post. I learned some stuff from it that i will def. implement.

I would also like to say IF you get in on oli and land a jab...jab cancel shenanigans are AMAZING. Lol there's always sdi but that's what testing the waters are for. and even if they sdi you can get 1-3 jabs then a grab. Seriously, don't underestimate jab cancel. I've found many uses for it many times here in Fl.
 
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SOLUTION: Ftilt as soon as they run in. They seriously have no defense against this, in fact when you see a little Oli running toward you should thank the lord because it's an auto %21
lol Its like no Olimar ever does a dashing Shield, roll, or spot dodge as an approach. But, point taken. I look forward to applying some of this next time I play an Olimar.
 

**Havok**

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lol Its like no Olimar ever does a dashing Shield, roll, or spot dodge as an approach. But, point taken. I look forward to applying some of this next time I play an Olimar.
Well if they spot dodge its ok because if you already started the ftilt you can hit them out of grab with the 2nd hit. I think he can buffer upsmash though :(
But yea again, Roll is annoying.

The roll so bad that its actually pretty good.
 
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Just fits under the category of, you can punish a running grab, so you make them think twice about approaching with it all the time. Sort of like with falco vs marth in melee. Counter falco out of approaching lasers and get him to start using empty short hops to bait counters.
 

UltimateRazer

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Good post Havok, although I don't agree with a couple of things. Btw, I still havn't forgotten about your PM on AiB xD. I just havn't gotten to it.

Btw, Kuro, I've always thought that this is 55:45 snake. I played zori and denti today in tourney who have gotten a lot better. I'll have vids up of me vs them when they go online to hopefully help y'all with the MU.
 

Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
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Good post Havok, although I don't agree with a couple of things. Btw, I still havn't forgotten about your PM on AiB xD. I just havn't gotten to it.

Btw, Kuro, I've always thought that this is 55:45 snake. I played zori and denti today in tourney who have gotten a lot better. I'll have vids up of me vs them when they go online to hopefully help y'all with the MU.
:colorful::bluejump::starman: yay~
 

**Havok**

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It's not that bad! It's just like any other MU, except this one feels like you're ALWAYS moving around (while camping as well)
 

~ Gheb ~

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The problem is that "using your brain while throwing out grenades" is synonymous to "bad match-up" for too many Snake players. Snake has many tools to avoid Pikmin while holding a grenade in his hands and he's also one of the best characters to get rid of them too. But the match-up requires more than just to abuse this characters' sheer, inherent power and that's why lots of Snake players see no way around it when it's actually even at worst.

:059:
 

Denti

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Pretty much razer, and I know RC very well. But honestly I could have done a much better job on RC.. except for that first stock. After that I felt like I wanted to give up >.>
 

**Havok**

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:)

SoCal had a tournament this weekend and I lost to Rich in winners 0-2. Then I swept him 3-0 in Loser's finals with Snake. I think I have it down a little more, that MU is hella close lol
 

**Havok**

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Yea and so was my last set with Anuar, the 2nd best Olimar in SoCal (I mean there's only two but if there were others he would be it anyway).

So whenever MikeHAZE puts them up I'll show you guys.
 

**Havok**

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Yea but it's hella annoying if you don't play it often in the first place :(

Once you figure it out, it's not that bad and definitely even.
 

xDD-Master

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I think its in the range of 6:4 Olimar or 5:5. Definitely not Snakes Favor though. But definitely not worse than 6:4.
Its just, that in a near to perfect gameplay I dont see what snake should do. It's just that Olimar is hard to handle in all the chaos (Explosives, Pikmins etc), so that they will mess up some time because of human restrictions, which can lead to massive damage by snake.

So yeah, probably 5:5 at current top level, maybe 6:4 in the future. Thats what I'd say atm.

But you can of course try to prove me wrong.


@Gheb: And Brood ***** the **** out of Allys Snake. So there we go.
Americas Olimars just suck. They only got kinda good vs. MK suddenly by watching how Brood plays the MU lol.
 

~ Gheb ~

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^ That alone does not prove something is even.

Just saying.
Heh, I'm well aware. Just saying that the results are becoming more and more in Snake's favor in that match-up, Bizkit being the most recent Snake proving victorious over a competent Olimar players.

@Gheb: And Brood ***** the **** out of Allys Snake. So there we go.
Americas Olimars just suck. They only got kinda good vs. MK suddenly by watching how Brood plays the MU lol.
Yeah, Brood ***** Ally ... a year ago.

Not to mention that as good as his Snake was [and most likely still is] it's also hard to deny that it's not the way he handles the matchup of the characters well but the matchup of the players that made him **** people with Snake. If it comes to the match-ups of characters then I don't consider him the most representative Snake player - otherwise Snake would have a noticeable advantage over Falco, have a solid disadvantage to Marth and lose to Wario, whereas in actuality none of that is the case.

How does Brood beating Ally represent the match-up when the same Olimar has a losing history to Shu's Snake that goes back way to 2009? You act as if Brood beating Ally puts him beyond the match-up when he's not even particularly successfull at it against Snake players that are experienced in the Olimar match-up.

And lol @saying that US Olimars suck ... yeah they do but so do Snake players [and imo much more so], making that point pretty obsolete.

:059:
 

UltimateRazer

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I think its in the range of 6:4 Olimar or 5:5. Definitely not Snakes Favor though. But definitely not worse than 6:4.
Its just, that in a near to perfect gameplay I dont see what snake should do. It's just that Olimar is hard to handle in all the chaos (Explosives, Pikmins etc), so that they will mess up some time because of human restrictions, which can lead to massive damage by snake.

So yeah, probably 5:5 at current top level, maybe 6:4 in the future. Thats what I'd say atm.

But you can of course try to prove me wrong.


@Gheb: And Brood ***** the **** out of Allys Snake. So there we go.
Americas Olimars just suck. They only got kinda good vs. MK suddenly by watching how Brood plays the MU lol.
No. You are completely wrong. Go back and read what Havok and I said. It's 55:45 snake generally.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Okay, you went from singular and ended with plural. Which is it?
Probably a joke question but the answer is that it was meant to be singular in case you were serious. Dunno about him beating any other Olimar worth mentioning.

:059:
 

UltimateRazer

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I said PROVE me wrong, not tell me to be wrong :p
I actually dont think that Snake beats Olimar.
I've beaten every Olimar I've played and never lost to them. RB and Weroup back in 09 when he was around. Logic, Zori, and Denti. I even beat Brood in friendlies if you're still on that "brood beat all y" which is a bad argument. I've played this MU countless times. It's 55-45 snake. The only one I havn't fought is dabu z who fata1 also beat.
 

Denti

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It's probably 55:45 snake's favor yo. Once snake has the stock lead it should be game.

I have a real question for some snakes who think it's Olimar favor, how does Olimar approach snake? He doesn't, F tilt beats every approach.
 

xDD-Master

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I've beaten every Olimar I've played and never lost to them. RB and Weroup back in 09 when he was around. Logic, Zori, and Denti. I even beat Brood in friendlies if you're still on that "brood beat all y" which is a bad argument. I've played this MU countless times. It's 55-45 snake. The only one I havn't fought is dabu z who fata1 also beat.
OK, so, just because you're good in the MU, and you have experience in it, makes the MU better? Seems logical to me.
 

Fogo

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And just because Ally lost in the MU that makes the MU worse? That's a pretty logical argument too, huh?

What Razer is saying is that the matchup is easier than you think, you just have to play it correctly, and since he is doing so, he refuses to accept that the MU is not in our favor.
 

Denti

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Well what are you weighing the MU ratio as xDD-master? Are you weighing the MU ratio as how difficult it is for Snake to learn or who has it harder at a high level of play? Because it seems that you're confusing the ratio with how difficult it is to learn as oppose to who has the advantage.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Well what are you weighing the MU ratio as xDD-master? Are you weighing the MU ratio as how difficult it is for Snake to learn or who has it harder at a high level of play? Because it seems that you're confusing the ratio with how difficult it is to learn as oppose to who has the advantage.
Omfg this sooooooooo much

Olimar match-up is really damn hard to learn but it's definitely not that hard to play *once* you've learned it.

:059:
 

xDD-Master

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Says Gheb, the best Smasher in the world :) :p (No offense, I love you anyway <3)

No really, as I said, I could be wrong, but I just dont see it, how Snake shouldve the advantage over Olimar, as I see it between even and 6:4 Olimar. (I tend to say even, because I think many matchups are even in Brawl, especially the ones of snake)

I read Havoks Post, there I some good points, but its not as if Olimar cant have counters to those "options". At least I think he could :O!
Again, I may be wrong :o
Would be cool to see some high level play from that MU (:
 
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