Wario's Week 36 Matchup Discussion: Cpt. Falcon!

Padô · May 25, 2010

YESZ!

This week we got the 2nd sexiest character in Brawl to discuss. (ofc Wario is first!)

Captain Falcon!

We got a CG that from 23% to 80ish%. He's got an annoying jab > Grab and stupid grab release kill potential, can we overcome those? His Uair is bringing us problems? GR > Knee how powerful is this?

Good Discussion!!

Lord Chair · May 25, 2010

This matchup is just plain weird. Even though I never lose against Falcons, I often tend to panic because of the silly situations I get into.

Bite beats pretty much everything he has, but he is fast enough to capitalize on whiffed Bites, so I don't suggest just spamming it. However, if you expect any kind of approach you can generally Bite it.

Don't commit to FH dair too much, that's pretty much giving him the chance to use one of his only decent moves (uair durrr). Any SH approach is pretty much safe, with a rather large margin of error. I don't really know what to say about this MU, so long as you don't go around being overly offensive you'll probably be fine, even if you never played it before.

It's probably something like 70-30, my experience is 'limited' to Red-Blue, who is currently probably the best Falcon in Europe. I may play him again in 2 weeks, but by that time this discussion is already over (if it's going to be taken seriously at all) and the MU will probably be covered by that time ^^

toobusytocare · May 25, 2010

oh it starts at 23%? no wonder he keeps falling out for me lmao!

what happened to the thread with all the CG percentages? because michael hey's blog on AiB has some wrong data, also wolf needs another look at.

also bite>falcon, but if you get punished then you get *****.
his airspeed and ground speed are also really freaking good.

60:40

Humpy Thrashabout · May 25, 2010

I can't wait for Bassem to get in on this. Ally went to GROAT and I planned on playing his Falcon, but my ride wanted to leave and I had college johns the next day.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · May 25, 2010

Humpy Thrashabout said:
I can't wait for Bassem to get in on this. Ally went to GROAT and I planned on playing his Falcon, but my ride wanted to leave and I had college johns the next day.

I don't understand College johns it's not as though you have to go to class... I'm pretty sure one day out of the semester wouldn't equate to a F.

Dynomite · May 26, 2010

*camping this thread until bassem shows up*

PhantomX · May 26, 2010

10:90 obviously

inbeforecanada

teluoborg · May 27, 2010

About CGs Falcon has one too, from 0 to 50-60%.

Grab release to knee can kill from 110% depending on where you get grabbed.

This matchup is clearly Wario's advantage, but Falcon still has the tools to not get *****.

Zeallyx · May 27, 2010

You guys **** us.

We have some grab release shenanigans, but not enough to even come close to an advantage, heck, not even nearly enough to this MU even beeing close to 50-50.

Wario vs falcon: 70-30, Wario.

lordhelmet · May 27, 2010

Lol @ 2Knee. Wario is my easiest match-up, Wario's CG on Falcon isn't really legit, it only goes to 40% tops. Sure Wario can aircamp, but Falcon's utilt disjoint stops that from completely ****** us. Also, lots of Warios think that Falcon has no way outta bite. Utilt, usmash, and up-b all beat Wario's bite.

We have a ton of grab release shenanigans, but the only truly reliable ones are release>up-b and release>knee. Any smart Falcon will rack you with up-b (does an average of 17% including staleness). A fresh Knee can kill Wario as low as 80% (stage position obv).

55-45 or 60-40 Wario's favor. I can post/edit this later.

PS: Even Judge thinks it's in Falcon's favor after he got manhandled by Ally

Zeallyx · May 27, 2010

lordhelmet said:
Lol @ 2Knee. Wario is my easiest match-up, Wario's CG on Falcon isn't really legit, it only goes to 40% tops. Sure Wario can aircamp, but Falcon's utilt disjoint stops that from completely ****** us. Also, lots of Warios think that Falcon has no way outta bite. Utilt, usmash, and up-b all beat Wario's bite.

We have a ton of grab release shenanigans, but the only truly reliable ones are release>up-b and release>knee. Any smart Falcon will rack you with up-b (does an average of 17% including staleness). A fresh Knee can kill Wario as low as 80% (stage position obv).

55-45 or 60-40 Wario's favor. I can post/edit this later.

PS: Even Judge thinks it's in Falcon's favor after he got manhandled by Ally

..Not even mentioning bite, nor wario's arials, which can shut falcon down almost completely, doesnt give you the right to 'lol@me' at all.

lordhelmet · May 27, 2010

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
..Not even mentioning bite, nor wario's arials, which can shut falcon down almost completely, doesnt give you the right to 'lol@me' at all.

Wario's aircamping really doesn't kill us, properly-spaced uairs beat out all his aerials (IIRC) as well as utilt. We kill Wario as easy if not easier than Wario can kill us. I've survived a fresh Wario uair at 150% and Wario's fsmash is pretty punishable if you don't fall for stupid tricks.

Until I get wrecked by a Wario, I'll reserve my right to lol@u.

Zeallyx · May 27, 2010

lordhelmet said:
Wario's aircamping really doesn't kill us, properly-spaced uairs beat out all his aerials (IIRC) as well as utilt. We kill Wario as easy if not easier than Wario can kill us. I've survived a fresh Wario uair at 150% and Wario's fsmash is pretty punishable if you don't fall for stupid tricks.

Until I get wrecked by a Wario, I'll reserve my right to lol@u.

>_>

I'll just let you think that.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · May 27, 2010

lordhelmet said:
Wario's aircamping really doesn't kill us, properly-spaced uairs beat out all his aerials (IIRC) as well as utilt. We kill Wario as easy if not easier than Wario can kill us. I've survived a fresh Wario uair at 150% and Wario's fsmash is pretty punishable if you don't fall for stupid tricks.

Until I get wrecked by a Wario, I'll reserve my right to lol@u.

What's you're super easy way to kill wario?

Lord Chair · May 27, 2010

I think he believes that Falcon has an easy time grabbing Wario.

Dynomite · May 27, 2010

many people have been talking about falcon beating wario off one player (ally) but i mean you cant really say that the matchup is in falcons favor just because of him. Falcon does have the tools to take down a wario but honestly, i dont think it gives him the advantage.

Wario's air moves do tend to beat falcon up and can put him in really bad positions. Juggle juggle juggle once falcon is in the air. Bite chains a lot % racks up damage and can lead to a grab. Wario should also be able to gimp falcon off stage with fairs & nairs. The whole ledge gaurding game is in warios favor. Ground game, we do get out spaced.
Falcon can rack up some quick damage with upairs and can juggle us easily. uptilt can block a dair and fair but if not timed right or baited, it will leave falcon open for punishment.

Overall: they both have tools to take down the other. This matchup reminds me of the DK matchup and seeing how DK v. Wario is 65:35, and reviewing that matchup in my mind, i think that falcon v wario is rather similar but falcon doesnt have it quite as bad.

60:40 Wario's favor.

Darky-Sama · May 27, 2010

40:60.

Even though Falcon has a hard time grabbing a {good} Wario, that isn't all Falcon has to make this match-up relatively easy. Falcon's jab can demolish a lot that Wario throws at him and offers a chance to grab afterward. In the air, although Wario has some of the best spacing potential in the game, Falcon can still abuse his uair to outrange most of Wario's air game.

When it comes to grab releases, obvious results.
Beneath kill percentage: Grab Release -> Up+B = approximately 20% average.
Above kill percentage: Grab Release -> Unstale Knee = Wario loses stock.

Wario still has the advantage. Even if he doesn't use the chaingrab that he has on Falcon {which I'm not 100% sure on the percentage Falcon needs for it to work}, he can still pressure Falcon to the point where he can't do much. Also, Falcon is subject to a LOT of ridiculous attack strings because he's a fastfalling character.

Wario just has to avoid getting grabbed. Falcon can make that difficult for him, but a good Wario shouldn't find it too much of a problem.

Lord Chair · May 27, 2010

What makes me think that pretty much everyone who thinks it's doable for Falcon thinks that, at a high level of play, Falcon will somehow get grabs off?

Falcon doesn't grab Wario, that should only happen if the Falcon player is a lot better than the Wario player in the first place, or because the Wario player thinks he should go all out aggressive 'n shiz because hell, it's Falcon.

teluoborg · May 27, 2010

Lord Chair said:
What makes me think that pretty much everyone who thinks it's doable for Falcon thinks that, at a high level of play, Falcon will somehow get grabs off?

Falcon doesn't shieldgrab Wario, that should only happen if the Falcon player is a lot better than the Wario player in the first place, or because the Wario player thinks he should go all out aggressive 'n shiz because hell, it's Falcon.

Fixed for you.
Yes shield grabbing is stupid (Falcon's OOS options are stupid) but Falcon's running speed + the fact that Wario can't stay forever in the air makes grabbing very likely to happen.
It shouldn't be more than 2 or 3 times in a match, but it means 2 or 3 knees/Fsmash.

IMO the thing that makes this matchup not 7-3 for Wario is Falcon's mobility.
Else it's pretty much in Wario's favor,
Your Dair, Uair and bite will be your best tools.
Falcon's Uair, Bair, jab and dash attack will be your worst ennemies. Avoid those (and being grabbed, but if you play Wario I'm not gonna teach you that) and you're safe.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · May 27, 2010

what about offstage shenanigans ? How does falcon prevent gimps or taking lots of damage?

Lord Chair · May 27, 2010

I don't really think he has to fear a lot if he properly recovers low.

Am I mistaken at that?

Zatchiel · May 27, 2010

Lord Chair said:
I think he believes that Falcon has an easy time grabbing Wario.

Edit: Nvm.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
what about offstage shenanigans ? How does falcon prevent gimps or taking lots of damage?

I think as long as Wario has his recovery options, he's about as good offstage as he is onstage.
Falcon has a tough time getting back when it comes to horizontals, but he has fairly good offstage defense, he can still Uair, or if you lucky enough or time it well, the Dive's priority can comepletely scratch off Wario's gimp attempt if Wario has enough damage.
But other than that, Falcon is basically gone offstage if you land the gimp.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · May 27, 2010

Lord Chair said:
I don't really think he has to fear a lot if he properly recovers low.

Am I mistaken at that?

Can't wario just nair **** him off stagE?

Lord Chair · May 27, 2010

Nair doesn't work on low recoveries really, invincible nairs won't do the trick either since they don't have the range to cope with Dive's silly ledgesnap range.

lordhelmet · May 27, 2010

I barely ever get gimped by Wario, as long as Falcon DIs he should be fine... not to mention anything Wario does offstage is easy to up-b.

Also, most people forget that Falcon has jab>grab, though it's not a 100% true combo it's very hard to escape and very reliable.

And I never said it was Falcon's favor guys, I said Judge thinks that. lrn2read

Lord Chair · May 27, 2010

You probably won't get to jab a lot in this MU.

lordhelmet · May 27, 2010

Lord Chair said:
You probably won't get to jab a lot in this MU.

Keyword: probably

But yeah, really depends on how the Wario plays. Forgot to mention FH nair>grab but that's even less probable lol

Zatchiel · May 27, 2010

I thought it was FH Nair > Jab> Jab(Optional)> Grab.
That's what i do, and i can never seem to get them with FH Nair> Grab.

Dynomite · May 27, 2010

Dont count captain falcon out peoples. he easily win if not taken seriously..

some random stuff i found. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTg5qta87Fk

Zatchiel · May 27, 2010

That's cruel your displaying, so unfair

Darky-Sama · May 27, 2010

Falcon really isn't bad in this match-up, but I wouldn't consider it in his favor or 'even'. 45:55 or 40:60 seems logical, in Wario's favor. Grab releases are the main thing Wario has to watch out for and it's been stated, at a professional level, that's not going to happen but so much. Good Wario's know what to watch out for.

Falcon's speed makes his grab punishing game beyond exceptional, but Wario still has more potential over Falcon in this MU than the other way around. However... compared to most characters vs. Wario, Falcon definantly does better than most.

Zeallyx · May 28, 2010

Darky-Sama said:
Falcon really isn't bad in this match-up, but I wouldn't consider it in his favor or 'even'. 45:55 or 40:60 seems logical, in Wario's favor. Grab releases are the main thing Wario has to watch out for and it's been stated, at a professional level, that's not going to happen but so much. Good Wario's know what to watch out for.

Falcon's speed makes his grab punishing game beyond exceptional, but Wario still has more potential over Falcon in this MU than the other way around. However... compared to most characters vs. Wario, Falcon definantly does better than most.

45:55 is plain idiotic. Heck, even 40:60 is.

it's at least 65-35, wario. And if you think it's any better for falcon, you havent done your homework on wario. ~~or you overrate falcon.~~

KAB1 · May 28, 2010

So that new "Wario slayer" you guys just found isn't enough to take the matchup away from Wario? ( http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=276005 for those who don't know)

I'm new so I'm just trying to learn.

lordhelmet · May 28, 2010

I don't know if that's even a true combo, 2Knee found a few other funny things we can do though..

I'll try to find someone to test if the Wario can DI out, if he can't then the Wario Slayer will be something I'm going to work on.

Darky-Sama · May 28, 2010

When Wario gets to a high enough percent where he bounces on the ground after the Dair, it's techable, I'm sure. A normal tech can be punished with a grab just as easily, but if they tech-roll, who knows.

Either way, it seems useful from what I've seen.

lordhelmet · May 28, 2010

Darky-Sama said:
When Wario gets to a high enough percent where he bounces on the ground after the Dair, it's techable, I'm sure. A normal tech can be punished with a grab just as easily, but if they tech-roll, who knows.

Either way, it seems useful from what I've seen.

Wario can't tech the Slayer, you're thinking of something else

Darky-Sama · May 28, 2010

He can't tech the Dair? Below uhh... I guess we'll say 50%, I know he can't because he lands on the ground. But higher percents though? He HITS the ground. A character can tech Falcon's Dair any other time when they hit the ground like that.

EDIT; Nevermind, I see what you're talking about. This isn't the same combo as the one discovered about a year ago. This one involves a footstool. Interesting though, get that video uploaded so I can see exactly how it's performed.

Zatchiel · May 28, 2010

I'm pretty sure Lordy meant he can't tech the Footstool in the slayer.
The Dair should be techable, but i'm uncertain from what i'm hearing.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · May 28, 2010

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
45:55 is plain idiotic. Heck, even 40:60 is.

it's at least 65-35, wario. And if you think it's any better for falcon, you havent done your homework on wario. ~~or you overrate falcon.~~

A falcon main with some sense. /thread

Darky-Sama · May 28, 2010

I'm still leaning toward 40:60, Wario's favor. 35:65 isn't a bad assumption either now that I think about it, but I dunno.

It's definantly in Wario's favor, but at a professional level, there's very few Falcons who know what the hell they're doing to even give a decent basis for this match-up {or any match-up, for that matter}. We know a good Wario wouldn't get grabbed, but Falcon has some of the best grab potential in the game thanks to his ******** dash -> shield -> shield grab approach. So if a good/professional Falcon {lol, if that exists other than Ally} played in this match-up, who knows? It takes a skilled, smart player to get anywhere against a character like Wario, especially with a character as poor as Captain Falcon. Ally's the only one that's been proving that Falcon even has potential in this match-up, but hey, it's Ally. The Warios could have just been poor players compared to him.

Just stating that from the posts on our boards about it. lol

Wario's Week 36 Matchup Discussion: Cpt. Falcon!

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Journeyman

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

WarioMan

Smash Otter

Fox mains get all the girlz

Smash Master

Fox mains get all the girlz

Smash Master

Fox mains get all the girlz

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Otter

Smash Hero

Smash Master

a little slice of heaven 🍰

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Master

Smash Master

a little slice of heaven 🍰

Smash Champion

a little slice of heaven 🍰

Smash Lord

Fox mains get all the girlz

Smash Apprentice

Smash Master

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Lord

a little slice of heaven 🍰

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Information

Network