AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
rolling on floor laughing.
-
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Wario's Week 36 Matchup Discussion: Cpt. Falcon!
- Thread starter Padô
- Start date
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Yeah I've been reading through that with a certain sort of astonishment as well.
Falcon's shield approach against Wario is... not so good.
Falcon's shield approach against Wario is... not so good.
smashkng
Smash Lord
Lol matchups are based on equal skilled people at the very top of level play, not the low tier completely outsmarting the top tier. That's similar to Links claiming going even with Snake, if Link doesn't outsmart Snake he's going to get *****, but if he can outsmart, then it's maybe even (but already breaking the matchup rules).
So even if Ally did beat good Wario's, they just lost because how good reads Ally makes. And did those Warios actually know the Falcon matchup?
So even if Ally did beat good Wario's, they just lost because how good reads Ally makes. And did those Warios actually know the Falcon matchup?
lordhelmet
Smash Master
Here's the Wario Slayer
You guys can go with w/e ratio you want but most people are agreeing with 6-4 Wario's favor.
You guys can go with w/e ratio you want but most people are agreeing with 6-4 Wario's favor.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
And that's what I'm saying. There's not many people playing Falcon on a professional level aside from Ally. I can only think of two or three others, but I doubt they even play anymore. lmao
A lot of people think it's equal, which I think is ridiculous.
40:60 in Wario's favor seems to be the most accurate ratio, imo.
A lot of people think it's equal, which I think is ridiculous.
40:60 in Wario's favor seems to be the most accurate ratio, imo.
Dynomite
Smash Champion
Ally you are such a trooooooooooolll!
@the actual topic: I second the notion of 60:40 Wario's favor.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
"In fact, this is one of the main reasons that Captain Falcon saw a raise on the tier list. He can penetrate the zoning of many characters, and can get a grab (which has decent follow-ups) or a Uair."
Pierce on shield approaches. kthxbai
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Many chars.
But not Wario.
God, way to not be pertinent.
But not Wario.
God, way to not be pertinent.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Wario's air speed > your logic.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
Explain shpl0x, "it doesn't work" doesn't satisfy me.
It's not like we have to approach Wario akneeways..
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I can't tell the defense from falcon mains and sonic mains you guys sound the same with all this run speed non sense =/.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
It's fairly easy.
A sliding shield is a good tactic indeed, against characters who avoid shieldgrabs using their RANGE. The thing with Wario is that his shield safity is mainly because he can crossup his nair and dair even when starting the attack in front.
Your sliding shield is useless if Wario ends up behind you and your shield drop is 6 frames. <3
Lord Chair
Smash Master
7 frames. And crossups aren't even the biggest issue, Wario can easily just space away.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Right, keep forgetting that D:
stupid wrong character boards of false info
stupid wrong character boards of false info
Hmm. I would say this MU is 55-45 Falcon. Reasons for this.
1) Falcon's jab>grab which leads to his grab releases on wario
2) Falcons up air, which beats out any of wario's aerials if timed correctly
3) Falcon's ground speed which allows him to get into wario's comfort zone and be more unpredictable with his grabs.
Yeah, I know. Many people will disagree with this. The problem is that there arent enough GOOD falcon players to show how this matchup REALLY is. I will still MM any wario who thinks its worse than 50-50 for falcon.
1) Falcon's jab>grab which leads to his grab releases on wario
2) Falcons up air, which beats out any of wario's aerials if timed correctly
3) Falcon's ground speed which allows him to get into wario's comfort zone and be more unpredictable with his grabs.
Yeah, I know. Many people will disagree with this. The problem is that there arent enough GOOD falcon players to show how this matchup REALLY is. I will still MM any wario who thinks its worse than 50-50 for falcon.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
You didn't lose to captain falcon you lost to Ally there's a huge difference. Okay?
lordhelmet
Smash Master
Bassem knows what's up
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Na Ally just gave bassem the **** so bassem been screaming this non sense since then.
If we're going by Bassem's experiences, ICs beat Wario like 90:10.
Not trying to be a ****, just trying to show that extrapolation is a ridiculous thing.
Not trying to be a ****, just trying to show that extrapolation is a ridiculous thing.
Dynomite
Smash Champion
Bassem I guess ill accept that MM. I mean, what is stated above is rather true. There arent any really good falcons to shows that the matchup is in his favor. I have to ask though, Bassem, Do you have any REAL falcon experience? You cant really judge the matchup upon a set with you and ally throughly without having prior falcon experience.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Still sticking with my ratio of 40:60. Either you guys are overrating your aerial spacing or underrating Falcon's dash -> shield -> grab / dash grab because it's still extremely useful against Wario. Just because Wario can land out of grab range against most characters doesn't really apply / work nearly as well against Falcon's mobility.
It's just as Bassem said though. There's a huge controversy over this match-up on both of the boards. There's hardly any Falcon mains that know how to read/punish opponents and play logical. It's Wario's favor either way, but it seems that people are giving somewhat of a blind-eye toward Falcon's potential.
It's just as Bassem said though. There's a huge controversy over this match-up on both of the boards. There's hardly any Falcon mains that know how to read/punish opponents and play logical. It's Wario's favor either way, but it seems that people are giving somewhat of a blind-eye toward Falcon's potential.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Dynomite
Smash Champion
Fixed for accuracy.
falcon isnt gonna land in your comfort zone. He is likely to retreat and in that time he should be able to shield your nair.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
If he's retreating a nair then he's just resetting the situation. Retreating SH Nairs aren't safe for him anyway.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
I think you guys are forgetting that it is possible to space nair
Not to where Wario can't punish it, if you're using it to approach.
Damage Points
Smash Ace
When I play falcons I just bite a **** ton and it always works.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
If Falcon is approaching with the Nair, it's possible to punish him. But it has enough range to safely space Wario's options. Considering it auto-cancels, he doesn't have to worry about any cooldown time punishment if Wario's grounded.
If Falcon's Nair is spaced properly, the time it would take for Wario to use an Nair to punish him, Falcon could have an up tilt started. Not saying that Falcon should be using that in this situation, but if he has the time to use/possibly land an up tilt, then he definantly has the ability to stay out of Wario's comfort zone.
If Falcon's Nair is spaced properly, the time it would take for Wario to use an Nair to punish him, Falcon could have an up tilt started. Not saying that Falcon should be using that in this situation, but if he has the time to use/possibly land an up tilt, then he definantly has the ability to stay out of Wario's comfort zone.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I think you guys are underestimating the things that wario can punish. It's rather obnoxious the amount of things he can punish.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
No, it's obvious that Wario can punish. I've mained him long enough to know that fairly well. But punishing Falcon's Nair with his own Nair out of shield? I'm 99% sure that he can't do that. Falcon should have enough time, if he fastfalls the Nair, to pull up a shield himself.
I'm not entirely certain on the frame data, so perfect buffering? No idea. If Wario is guaranteed a hit, the timing is ridiculously strict to be able to punish a spaced Nair with that.
I'm not entirely certain on the frame data, so perfect buffering? No idea. If Wario is guaranteed a hit, the timing is ridiculously strict to be able to punish a spaced Nair with that.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
This is all bull theorycrafting.
Sorry for not elaborating, just wanted to make that clear.
Sorry for not elaborating, just wanted to make that clear.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Does your nair out range Marth's fair ?
Lord Chair
Smash Master
How is that pertinent.
B/c Wario can punish Marth's fair, so if nair doesn't have longer range, Wario can punish nair.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
Wario can punish SHFF Fair?
Really, SH fair non-fastfalled can be punished by quite a few characters, thing is like -25 on shield.
Really, SH fair non-fastfalled can be punished by quite a few characters, thing is like -25 on shield.
You can punish Marth's SHFF Fair with good spacing, either with nair or fair or bair, with the latter two being the easiest. I made a living off it, lol.
slikvik
Smash Master
you mean with bad spacing. the marth will usually space correctly and wont let that consistently happen
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
No, Marth's Fair slightly outranges Falcon's Nair. It depends on how Falcon tends to pressure Wario's shield though. A short hop first hit Nair or a normal short hop Nair. The second hit of Falcon's Nair pressures more than the first, but I don't see people using that too much against characters while they're grounded. Plus, Wario's pretty short, I don't see it being that useful against him anyway.
The thing about Marth's Fair is that it rarely hits right when he's landing. Though it's possible, I rarely see Marths using a Fair anywhere other than the peak of their short hop. Falcon can use his Nair just as he's hitting the ground and pull up a shield about 3-4 frames after. Well, that might not be accurate, but it's extremely close to that frame rate.
Wario may be able to punish it though.
The thing about Marth's Fair is that it rarely hits right when he's landing. Though it's possible, I rarely see Marths using a Fair anywhere other than the peak of their short hop. Falcon can use his Nair just as he's hitting the ground and pull up a shield about 3-4 frames after. Well, that might not be accurate, but it's extremely close to that frame rate.
Wario may be able to punish it though.