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Brinstar's Acid Is (Mostly) Not Random

Raziek

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Some people probably already knew this, but I'll cross-post my findings on it anyway.

Comes directly from my Marth guide to Brinstar.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278807

Raziek said:
Hazards

The Acid

Brinstar's one and only hazard is the Acid that rises and falls as the match progresses. This section has a lot of numbers and explanation, so I WILL be including a TL;DR section at the end.

The acid deals 14% each hit, and it cannot be power-shielded, countered, or otherwise avoided at all. If it touches you, you WILL take the hit. It is survivable to around 180% from the bottom section of the stage, and can be DI'd. These numbers may vary, but the acid will not often kill you.
First off, after some testing, I have concluded that Brinstar's acid is NOT random. The pattern of rising and falling is the same every time, though it appears that it occasionally becomes de-synchronized by a few seconds. As such, take the warning times I provide with a grain of salt, as they will not be 100% exact, but if you see it rising around that time, you can be sure the level is correct.

I've divided my Acid Level Classifications into 9 levels, but only 4 or 5 are actually important.

Level 1 / The Bottom: This is the state the stage starts in. The acid is down as far as it can go, far below the chain in the lower right. (I use this as one of my primary visual cues for the level.)



Level 2: Up a bit higher than level 1, with most of the chain submerged, but NOT the right corner where it attaches to the wall. This is important, because you will not be saved from the blastzone at this point.



Level 3: Only slightly higher than Level 2, ALL of the chain is now submerged, and this is the first level at which the Acid WILL save you, you will contact it upon entering the magnifying glass. Alternate visual cue: Comes up to slightly below the "x" in the crossed cables.



Level 4: This one is the first where the acid is actually visible from a direct vertical perspective. It comes up to the "X" in the crossed cables in the mid-left section of the stage. Covers the blastzone and nothing else.



Level 5: Comes up to the bottom of the stage, causing it to steam. This will hit Marth if he is hanging on the ledge, since he is a tall character. Smaller characters are not affected.



Level 6: This can vary slightly, but I classify it as when the acid covers sections of the main stage. This is SOMETIMES safe, since patches do not get covered, however, this appears to be slightly inconsistent. The safest spots are directly under the main platform, and of course, on top of the platforms.



Level 7: Covers everything but the platforms. Self-explanatory.



Level 8: Covers the right platform, and patches of the left.



Level 9: Covers everything but the top platform.

What all this boils down to is that the acid has to be at LEAST level 3 to cover the blastzone, level 6 to hurt you on the main stage, and level 8 to hurt you on the platforms.

I did a couple sample runs to test the pattern and timing. This is one of the more accurate ones:

Bottom (8:00), 1 (7:44), 4 (7:34), 2 (7:26), 5, (7:20), 1 (7:13), 8 (7:08), 4 (7:03), Bottom (6:52), 3 (6:45), 1 (6:36), 5 (6:27), 6 (6:18), 1 (6:10), 6 (6:05), 5 (5:58), Gradual decline to Bottom (5:44), 1 (5:27), 4 (5:19), 3 (5:12), 6 (5:05), 1 (4:57), 8 (4:51), 4 (4:42), Bottom (4:38), 3 (4:30), 1 (4:19) 5 (4:11), 1 (3:56), 6 (3:51), 5 (3:46), 4 (3:39), Bottom (3:30), 1 (3:20), 4 (3:10), 6 (2:56), 1 (2:48), 6 (2:43), 4 (2:36), Bottom (2:27), 3(2:18), 1 (2:06), 5 (1:58), 1 (1:43), 6 (1:37), Gradual decline to 4 (1:25), Bottom (1:16), 1 (1:05), 4 (0:52), 2 (0:44), 6 (0:39), 1 (0:32), 9 (0:26), 4 (0:19), Bottom (0:11), 3 (0:06), 1 (0:03)
Complicated and hard to read, so I'll highlight the important stuff.

8 (~7:08) - Only parts of the left platform, and the top, are safe.
6 (~6:18) - Will cover the bottom part briefly, then recede.
6 (~6:05) - See Above.
6 (~5:05) - See Above.
8 (~4:51) - See Previous 8.
6 (~3:51) - See 6.
6 (~2:56) - See 6.
6 (~2:43) - ...
6 (~1:37) - ...
6 (~0:39) - ...
9 (~0:26) - This one is volatile and dangerous. Sometimes it's an 8, sometimes it doesn't happen. Be aware of it, especially if the match is down to the wire.

TL;DR version: Watch out for lava at 7:08, 4:51 and 0:26 ESPECIALLY. Read just above for more times.

Important disclaimer again: THESE TIMES MAY VARY SLIGHTLY. PAY ATTENTION.
I think it is important to note that if the left platform is broken, it can also be safe from the highest level of acid. Also the right, if broken, is safe at level 7

Also kirbys rock is the only move that isn't hit by the acid
 

Pierce7d

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Very nicely done. I would hope that anyone who practices for tournament would have played on this stage some, and realized the "pattern" of the acid by now, but having a detailed time table, even if it's just a guideline, is still a useful resource.
 

#HBC | J

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I love Brinstar and I was got the pattern down a bit but I never had a concrete data chart to go off on.

This is very nicely done ^_^
 

PieDisliker

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This is very helpful. Maybe now I can figure out when I should try to get my opponent into a bad position around these times. :D
 

Krystedez

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Its rediculous how random Norfair is though. Once, about SEVEN LAVA SPURTS came from the background and hit my opponent twice, killing him! I NEVER SAW ANYTHING LIKE IT! HE COULDNT DO ANYTHING!

God I love Norfair <3 Anyone know if there's ANY kind of pattern to it?

btw nice guideline, nice to know.
 

clowsui

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Its rediculous how random Norfair is though. Once, about SEVEN LAVA SPURTS came from the background and hit my opponent twice, killing him! I NEVER SAW ANYTHING LIKE IT! HE COULDNT DO ANYTHING!

God I love Norfair <3 Anyone know if there's ANY kind of pattern to it?

btw nice guideline, nice to know.
and by his opponent, he means ally
 

-LzR-

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Brinstar is by far my favorite stage, I had never noticed the acid has a predictable pattern. Good read.
 

Raziek

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Are you sure the schedule is not affected by the timer itself?
I have not yet been able to discern any reason why the schedule shifts slightly, but the pattern IS always the same, and I tested it several times on the standard 8 minute timer.
 

PK-ow!

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I have not yet been able to discern any reason why the schedule shifts slightly, but the pattern IS always the same, and I tested it several times on the standard 8 minute timer.
I'm not impressed by how you deflected the question.


Considering our 8 minute timer is entirely an invention, if there is a legit stage that interacts with the timer, it suddenly becomes important to know the relationship. In turn, it may be a way to ground the timer setting in something from the game.
 

Raziek

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I did not intend to deflect the question, I guess I misunderstood. If I'm understanding you correctly now, are you saying we should experiment with different timers to see if it changes the pattern? I'm not at all convinced that it will, since when I tested the pattern TIMERLESS initially, it was still the same. I'll give it a try on like, 9, or 7, but I have a feeling we'll see similar results, and I certainly don't think you'll get anywhere arguing to change the timer because of Brinstar's acid.
 

Raziek

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Bumping this for relevance, because a shocking number of people still aren't aware of it.
 

SuSa

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Few questions:

"Important disclaimer again: THESE TIMES MAY VARY SLIGHTLY. PAY ATTENTION."

Meaning?

Also I only see one runs data there. Even if it's approximated to the nearest second - why is more data not present?

As far as your "Important" information goes - it only seems to cover when the lava effects the stage. Not so much as when the lava is in levels 1-5. Why is that?

Bottom (8:00), 1 (7:44), 4 (7:34), 2 (7:26), 5, (7:20), 1 (7:13), 8 (7:08), 4 (7:03), Bottom (6:52), 3 (6:45), 1 (6:36), 5 (6:27), 6 (6:18), 1 (6:10), 6 (6:05), 5 (5:58), Gradual decline to Bottom (5:44), 1 (5:27), 4 (5:19), 3 (5:12), 6 (5:05), 1 (4:57), 8 (4:51), 4 (4:42), Bottom (4:38), 3 (4:30), 1 (4:19) 5 (4:11), 1 (3:56), 6 (3:51), 5 (3:46), 4 (3:39), Bottom (3:30), 1 (3:20), 4 (3:10), 6 (2:56), 1 (2:48), 6 (2:43), 4 (2:36), Bottom (2:27), 3(2:18), 1 (2:06), 5 (1:58), 1 (1:43), 6 (1:37), Gradual decline to 4 (1:25), Bottom (1:16), 1 (1:05), 4 (0:52), 2 (0:44), 6 (0:39), 1 (0:32), 9 (0:26), 4 (0:19), Bottom (0:11), 3 (0:06), 1 (0:03)

Bottom : 00
One : 16 ------- 16 seconds
Four : 26 ------- 10 seconds
Two : 34 -------- 8 seconds
Five : 40 ------ 6 seconds
One : 47 ------- 7 seconds
Eight: 52 ------- 5 seconds
Four: 57 -------- 5 seconds
Bottom: 68 -------11 seconds
Three: 75 --------7 seconds
One : 84 --------- 9 seconds
Five: 93 ---------- 9 seconds
Six: 102 -------- 9 seconds
One: 110 -------- 8 seconds
Six: 115 ---------5 seconds
Five: 122 --------- 7 seconds


Sorry if I'm not seeing a pattern at all here. Unless these times (and the heights) are always consistent with eachother. I'm failing to see your argument.
 

Raziek

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To clarify here, as well as our AIM convo, what that means is that the time that the schedule begins can shift slightly, altering the schedule by the same amount on each level. Meaning, if it starts one second late, the lava rises to the same level one second later for each following stage.

More data is not present because I verified the pattern within 3 runs, only one of which I recorded every time for. As soon as I realized that the pattern was present, I confirmed my results by comparing the pattern to matches that were recorded months ago.

I didn't list the levels below in important info, because I decided to focus only when the acid covers the stage.
 

Xebenkeck

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I think it is important to note that if the left platform is broken, it can also be safe from the highest level of acid. Also the right, if broken, is safe at level 8

Also kirbys rock is the only move that isn't hit by the acid
 

xDD-Master

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Brinstar's Acid Is Not Random

"This is SOMETIMES safe, since patches do not get covered, however, this appears to be slightly inconsistent."

"9 (~0:26) - This one is volatile and dangerous. Sometimes it's an 8, sometimes it doesn't happen. Be aware of it, especially if the match is down to the wire."

"THESE TIMES MAY VARY SLIGHTLY. PAY ATTENTION."

Brinstar's Acid Is Not Random
 

Raziek

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Thank you for mentioning that, note added to the OP.

Edit: at xDD - I like how you guys love to nitpick, even though I've never seen a match go to time on Brinstar (besides DMG), and the fact that you STILL NEED TO BE AWARE OF IT, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT IT HAPPENS.

This game is unavoidably random. If we can explain it to a 90% degree of accuracy, we will, and should.
 

Xebenkeck

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My bad, i meant at level 8 the right platform is safe when its broken, i read the OP wrong
 

xDD-Master

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Edit: at xDD - I like how you guys love to nitpick, even though I've never seen a match go to time on Brinstar (besides DMG), and the fact that you STILL NEED TO BE AWARE OF IT, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT IT HAPPENS.

This game is unavoidably random. If we can explain it to a 90% degree of accuracy, we will, and should.
k thx ^^

Just wanted to know what you define as random, since it still IS random nevertheless it can be predicted or not xD!
 

PMC66

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Brinstar needs to be banned there is still a random chance of the acid comming randomly at some point regardless of how consistant it may be. If Japes gets banned then this should be banned.
 
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PMC, you're not only completely missing why Japes is banned (it shouldn't be), you're wanting to ban a stage for a random event which is truly less consequential than the starting location and direction of the platform on smashville. I'll say with confidence that if you'd ban Brinstar due to randomness, you would have to ban virtually every stage except JJ, RC, FD, and BF.
 

-LzR-

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Klap Trap seems to vary it's timing very slightly sometimes. It's not 100% constant. BAN!
 

Raziek

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It actually varies by a couple frames, gradually shifting over the course of several minutes, but not enough to make a difference. You guys really need to get off the "slightly random = ban" idea. I'll point you to tripping, G&W, Peach, Luigi, and all the other random factors in this game as reference material.
 

xDD-Master

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I'll point you to tripping, G&W, Peach, Luigi, and all the other random factors in this game as reference material.
I wonder why you didn't mention Olimar since he is the most random character in the game x3

But well, his randomness appears to be less "random" then the randomness of other characters since his randomness is omnipresent :3

E: Duhble Pozte
 
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Yeah, randomness should only truly matter when it affects results considerably. Will the starting position/movement direction of the SV platform lead to you losing matches? What about the player's start position on CS? What about the order on PS1/PS2? No, such randomness will not only not cost you games, it won't even create an incosistency worth MENTIONING.
 

Raziek

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tru question a bit off topic...

if cs is legal we need very clean discs/usb loader as ive played on that level on bad wiis and the load times can be like 10 seconds more than usual
This is a fair point to note, however, rather impractical to standardize in tournaments.

Solution? Don't get grabbed. :awesome:
 

xDD-Master

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M2K vs. Ally - GENESIS2 GF1 - Match 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nub3kIq-8E#t=19m45s

"Important details"
7:30 - 6
7:16 - 8 or 9 (Cant tell)

6:30 - 5
6:10 - 6 (Fully covered Main Stage) -> 5
5:15 - 6
5:05 - 9

4:28 to 4:12 - 5
4:02 to 3:45 - 6 -> 5 -> 4
3:07 - 6
2:55 - 8 or 9 (Cant tell) -> 5 (For some more seconds)

2:10 to 2:00 - 5 (But so high that you couldnt grab edges)
1:50 - 7 -> 5 (For about 15 more seconds)
0:48 - 6
0:34 - 8 -> 5 (For about 10-15 more seconds)

Red part only (6,7,8,9):
7:30 - 6
7:16 - 8 or 9

6:10 - 6
5:15 - 6
5:05 - 9

4:02 - 6
3:07 - 6
2:55 - 8 or 9

1:50 - 7
0:48 - 6
0:34 - 8

Now what stands in the thread:
8 (~7:08) - Only parts of the left platform, and the top, are safe.
6 (~6:18) - Will cover the bottom part briefly, then recede.
6 (~6:05) - See Above.
6 (~5:05) - See Above.
8 (~4:51) - See Previous 8.
6 (~3:51) - See 6.
6 (~2:56) - See 6.
6 (~2:43) - ...
6 (~1:37) - ...
6 (~0:39) - ...
9 (~0:26) - This one is volatile and dangerous. Sometimes it's an 8, sometimes it doesn't happen. Be aware of it, especially if the match is down to the wire.


Now lets compare:
7:30 - 6 ||| ---------
7:16 - 8 ||| 8 - 7:08
6:10 - 6 ||| 6 - 6:18
--------- ||| 6 - 6:05
5:15 - 6 ||| 6 - 5:05
5:05 - 9 ||| 8 - 4:51
4:02 - 6 ||| 6 - 3:51
3:07 - 6 ||| 6 - 2:56
2:55 - 8 ||| 6 - 2:43
1:50 - 7 ||| 6 - 1:37
0:48 - 6 ||| 6 - 0:39
0:34 - 8 ||| 9 - 0:26
 

xDD-Master

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M2K vs. Ally - CoT5 GF1 - Match 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjGbszw_Rxg#t=5m27s

"Important details"
7:26 - 7
7:16 - 8

6:32 to 6:20 - 5
6:11 - 6 -> 5

Red part only (6,7,8,9):
7:26 - 7
7:16 - 8

6:11 - 6

Now lets compare:
7:26 - 7 ||| ---------
7:16 - 8 ||| 8 - 7:08
6:11 - 6 ||| 6 - 6:18
--------- ||| 6 - 6:05
---- MATCH ENDS ----



And now a quote:
Brinstar's acid is NOT random
You decide.
 
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