Let's Talk About Being Good: A Rant

What is skill? How do you define being "good" at a game?

I've got a pretty simple definition of what it means to be good at something. How good you are is determined by how often and to what degree you succeed at it. That's it. I think it's a nice, universally applicable definition that can apply to pretty much any game.

Let's say you've got some guy, a professional bowler. This guy can bowl a perfect game every time he goes into an alley. You'd agree with me that this guy is pretty good at bowling, yeah?

Let's get peculiar. Let's say this guy bowls by throwing the ball over his head with both arms at the pins. He just chucks the ball as hard as he can down the lane. Every game he scores a 300, perfect consistency. His methods are unorthodox, yes, but wouldn't you agree that he's still technically bowling well? In fact, no bowler in the world--that I know of, which isn't saying much--can get those scores so consistently, so he'd arguably be the best in the world.

Now let's say that it's illegal in the sport of bowling to throw the ball that way (maybe it already is? I don't know). You have to use an underhanded roll, and any other kind is against the rules. This guy is no longer good at bowling, because what he does is not technically bowling anymore. He's good at throwing a giant sphere of plastic polymer with deadly accuracy, but he's not good at bowling. This is important, because games are defined by their rules, and if he isn't playing the game anymore, how can we say he's good at it?

Or let's take a look at the movie Happy Gilmore. Wouldn't you agree that the eponymous main character is good at golf? Sure, he swings the club like a maniac and has a hockey-stick-shaped putter, but at the end, his score is better than everybody else's. He also--during the movie--becomes consistent enough to beat a bunch of golf pros who are significantly more orthodox than he is. So he's consistent and he wins. By my definition (which I don't think is very terrible) he's a good golfer.

I bring this up because there's a mentality in the Smash community--and a lot of other gaming communities that I've experienced--that there's a "right" way to play. There exists some weird kind of skill, called "real skill." Some players win, but they don't have "real skill." Doesn't this seem silly to you? Somebody plays by all the rules of the game, has access to the same tools, beats other people, but somehow he's actually worse. He doesn't have "real skill."

In Smash, what is this mythical "real skill?" Is it the ability to hit all your L-cancels? I don't think so. There's a stigma attached to being a technical player who doesn't adapt well; we say things like, "they're technical but they still aren't good." Is it the ability to read people? Well, not really. You can't really say that's "real skill" if you can't back it up. You can't prove you knew what the other guy was going to do if you walk into it on accident anyhow, can you?

So "real skill" probably exists, but it's really tough to define. We know it when we see it. Certain players have it, some don't. Hungrybox, for instance, does not have "real skill." I'm not sure what he has, but that's not it. He wins tournaments, takes top 3 at just about every national, beats almost every character with his Jigglypuff, but let's be clear, he does not have "real skill."

Why not? Well, he doesn't SHFFL. He clearly doesn't have any mindgames. He just spams one move and waits to rest you. Admittedly, the many other Jigglypuffs that can't SHFFL, have no mindgames and tried to spam b-air and rest haven't had nearly the same level of success as HBox, but that's not the point. He's not ACTUALLY good. No "real skill," remember?

I'm not sure how he beats people who have more "real skill" than him, actually. I guess he has a lot of fake skill? So much of it that it overwhelms all the "real skill." Which, as we've established, Hungrybox does not have. Someday we'll find the real secret behind why he wins so much, and we'll be happy because it will give us something to add to the list of what real skill is not. (I think this is something that separates SSBM from crappy games like golf. We have "real skill.")

Let's talk about skill! Being good means having skill. So what is it? (Not "real skill," we can't really define that. But we know it when we see it!)

Well, there are lots of different kinds of skills, so I like to think that your overall skill is determined by combining the individual skills you possess.

Some skills work together synergistically. They are good skills to practice together because they complement each other. I could practice shield-grabbing and SHFFL'ing b-air, or I could practice shield-grabbing and then chaingrabbing. I think that overall I would get more milage out the second combination than the other, because better shield-grabs would help me land chaingrabs, and better chaingrabs would make my shield-grabs worth more.

I also have no qualms in saying some skills are worth more than others. Some people will practice things like pivoted jab and moonwalk b-air with Fox, then be awful at sweetspotting. Usually, these kinds of people do not win a whole lot. They spend their time on skills that lack solid value and it costs them in tournament. SHDL is great, but finding ways not to get gimped four stocks per match is better. Being good at gimping them for all four stocks before they can gimp you is pretty good too.

Speaking of gimps, I just remembered something about HBox. He plays "gay," which trumps "real skill." I forgot. Silly me.

Back to skill. You can agree that some skills are worth more than others. You may also agree that your overall skill as a player is the combination of the things you have chosen to master. I think it is then logically sound to say that picking different things to master will lead to different levels of overall skill. Now, if you factor in that some skills are good against others, and it actually becomes rather difficult to tell who is "better" than somebody else. Even if somebody wins one particular matchup, they might not be more solid all-around and lose a larger number of matches than the other guy. (It probably doesn't matter much to you if you're the guy who gets eliminated, though. Then again, if you don't want the internet to make fun of you, you have to make sure everybody knows the other guy isn't actually as good you, so make sure to post about it a LOT).

But being good at certain things is worth more than being good at others, particularly if your skill choices synergize. That leads to you being better, which helps you win, which is good.

Unless, of course, you play gay. What's interesting is that even though--for instance--HBox plays gay, he doesn't camp (apparently you can be offensively gay, which isn't the same as finding gayness offensive). It's the fact that he only uses a few moves and somehow beats all these other people.

Let's get serious. There's a reason I am coming back to HBox so much. It's because people have an idea that there is a right way to play this game, and a wrong way. For whatever reason, certain players rarely receive the credit they deserve. HBox is my case study because no other player has had so much success met with so much communal ambivalence. There are other players like him though, who don't get credit because they don't play the "right way." They don't have "real skill."

Pardon me for being so emphatically vulgar, but what the **** does that mean? They aren't winning? Clearly they are, or we wouldn't even bring them up. They aren't playing the game that you want them to? Who the **** cares? In fact, if doing things you don't expect and want them to do helps them win, who's going to blame them for doing it? You? Of course you would, you lost. They're not entertaining? If we wanted the winner to be more entertaining, we would play bonus mode. They used the same move too many times? Put the abacus down, pointdexter, because you don't lose stocks for getting Stale Moves.

We do not have rules regarding entertainment. We do not have rules regarding proportionality in your moveset. You have 4 stocks and 8 minutes to put more hurt on the other guy than he can put on you and that's most of it. Nobody says you have to find every playstyle fun. I thought HBox's combo video was boring as hell. But the moment you start talking about "real skill," I start questioning your sanity. This applies to every last player in every last community. It's up to each person to master skills they believe will win, and when they DON'T win, to figure out what they lacked and then adapt. HBox can b-air like a champ, rest like a champ, avoids dying four times in a majority of his games, he rests more than most other Puffs and he gimps better than most other Puffs. Those are his skills and they help him win. Unless you're Mango, it probably means he wins more than you.

Here's my take on it. You pick the skills you want to master. You try and get them to synergize and you try and get them to give you the largest probability of winning against the largest number of people possible. After that, it's just execution (which is a skill of its own). If the skills work out and you win, fantastic. If they don't, get back to training mode and learn from your mistakes.

And don't ****ing john about it.

HBox is underrated. Awesome post Wobbles.

Wobbles the Phoenix said:

...people have an idea that there is a right way to play this game, and a wrong way. For whatever reason, certain players rarely receive the credit they deserve. HBox is my case study because no other player has had so much success met with so much communal ambivalence. There are other players like him though, who don't get credit because they don't play the "right way." They don't have "real skill."

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THANK YOU so much for saying this!!! I feel like way too many players have the mindset that there is only a good way and a bad way to play this game.

Melee is special, because you can choose ANY STYLE OF PLAY that you want to and still be successful. There is no book of rules that you have to follow in order to be good.

I hate when people say things like "don't do this; it's a bad move". Every move in this game can be useful if you choose to use it in an effective way (note how I didn't say the RIGHT way because there is no "right" way to use any move, there are only degrees of which they can be effective).

This was an excellent read Wobbles. BTW I laughed when you said "offensively gay" lol! That's such a perfect explanation for a few players that I can think of. Anyways, thanks for posting Wobbles =)

legitimate post filled with great points.

but what about gambling? you cant be good at gambling (you can be good at guessing or just lucky though), but you can still make money off it.

in the short run

in the long run when probability evens out, you won't make money playing against the house

excellent read.

Btw, you don't have real skill because you wobble lol.
/un ban

the synergies = ****. that will probably help me practice more useful things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5u39LxgyuI

i guess pink shinobi was just more skilled than mango this match.

Kels is still not good.

We should just play bonus to see who played sexier instead of, you know, stocks and all.

great read.

I said before that hbox doesnt play gay. play soft(puff main)then come back and talk to me. i played both players for hours at a time. Hbox wins tournies( big ones) and soft barely wins locals in ga or gets 2-5th

there is not a right way to play this game and i understood that after reading "playing to win" by david serlin.

if people want to be more entertained there are tons of players to watch. but im entertained when i watch hbox(unless hes playing colbol or shiz) most likely i would root for him.

the mentality of the community of people hating on hbox is ********. Dumbest thing i heard was " its not hbox , its jiggs, shes so broken" REALLY..IS SHE THAT GOOD OF A CHARACTER THAT SOMEONE WITH LESS SKILL OF YOURS BEAT YOU THAT BAD. Great thread man . Ihope people understand the points you made

http://shoryuken.com/f176/cheapness-221148/ <---topic on cheapness.

learn2link to og source

i think what's most interesting is that players such as wobbles feel the need to get the plebeians' approval. haters gon hate.

<3 Hbox

<3 Wobbles.

Good read, was sayin this about Hbox ages ago.

Beautiful post but why so long of a post full of implications and beating around the bush. Just say I think Wobbling should be unbanned because it takes "Real Skill" To do it. The end.. Nobody can define what is gay or skillful because it is to subjective. However the difference is to mad obvious. It is human nature for people to gravitate towards other humans that are great at something. You mentioned a bowler randomly throwing a ball and getting perfect. If anything it seems more like Silentspectre Sticky-walking and kneeing people and Moonwalk-grabbing. There are players that do random-ish **** and have great success. As for Hungrybox I would say he is more or less like Floyd Mayweather(Boxer) One of the most talented guys in history but his safe and defensive style got him unappreciated overall but there's still a large number of people that recognize his talent. Then you have players like yourself. Good players that would probably beat a pretty good portion of the Smash community in a set any day. However not good enough to take first in a tournament. With the exception of Chu Dat(<3 Chu) This seems to be the case with everyone that plays IC's. So you post rants about it in the melee discussions thread. I'm not coming at you negatively though. If I was you I would probably be doing the same things. However arguing in favor of Wobbling is alot like arguing in favor or Steroids to me. It doesn't change the game completely but it gives someone an unneeded enhancement that can turn ordinary men into Top players and good players in to favorites to win first. On the POE3 Livestream as soon as everyone found wobbling was legal everyone picked you to win...you won. You played well enough during the sets that you may have won without it but with it it seemed to tip things just enough in your favor. The same thing usually happens with Steroids. I wont however say that playing safe with Puff, Timing out, Planking, or Wobbling is gay though because I don't have too. People have an internal response to things such as those. Same way people have an internal response to amazing things such as Wombo Combo. However looking at the vid posted of PS vs Mango you can't possibly look at it and say well played because it wasn't well played. Now you can look at Mango vs Armada(Same Characters) and say Well played because those matches were actually greatness in Video form. They played with Real Skill. It is true that I cannot dictate what is real skill no more then I can say what is real love. Nobody can say when you have real love or not but you know it for yourself because you can feel it on the inside and gayness/******ry is no different. I mean Timing out, Planking, Wobbling(when Unbanned)....does it take real skill idk. Is it gay....yes.



@ Siglemic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k&feature=related
much worse.

Yeah, Spam_arrows, I don't think anyone's going to want to read your block of text, lol. The sheer lack of formatting makes me not want to read it.

In any case, good read. @Vro: I guess MLK should just have never given his famous "I Have a Dream" speech to get the support of the general public because haters are still going to hate/still hate, lol.

The following is a serious post:

Props for having a very well written post, Wobbles.


Denying and mocking the notion that a "right way to play" exists is utter bull****. How can anyone be ignorant to the single rudimentary principle of playing games? People play games to have fun! Therein lies the right way to play, to have fun. Players who prevent others from having fun are doing a disservice to their community and to their game. Camping isn't fun, Chaingrabbing isn't fun, Wobbling isn't fun, Planking isn't fun. If employing these so-called tactics disturbs the fun-loving environment that we play in, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

But what about "real skill?" Real skill is when your opponent happily and sincerely congratulates you for making their gaming expereince enjoyable, even if the outcome for them is defeat. And if you think that anyone's "skill" results in making others feel down after they play, I suggest you reconsider.

Finally, I must say that nothing is set in stone, and that things change. At one point or another, there surely exists players who don't think that edge guarding is fun. However, its ubiquity in gameplay has led to it becoming an acceptable practice.


Summary:
-People play for fun, and you are not allowed to take that from them.
-The best players have happy enemies.
-The acceptability and commonality of techniques is dynamic.

I considered mentioning that people play the game for fun in the Wobbling Compromise thread, but I figured it wouldn't be worth it. Good post RockCrock

mastermoo420 said:

Yeah, Spam_arrows, I don't think anyone's going to want to read your block of text, lol. The sheer lack of formatting makes me not want to read it.

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I just woke up at that point from a fun night of heavy drinking and fireworks. The last thing on my mind was formatting a post for smashboards. I am sure you read enough and...judging from your main you probably responded to my post in an attempt to deter those from seeing my logic. My logic is undeniable! I love you though...the none homo way.

RockCrock said:

The following is a serious post:

Props for having a very well written post, Wobbles.


Denying and mocking the notion that a "right way to play" exists is utter bull****. How can anyone be ignorant to the single rudimentary principle of playing games? People play games to have fun! Therein lies the right way to play, to have fun. Players who prevent others from having fun are doing a disservice to their community and to their game. Camping isn't fun, Chaingrabbing isn't fun, Wobbling isn't fun, Planking isn't fun. If employing these so-called tactics disturbs the fun-loving environment that we play in, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

But what about "real skill?" Real skill is when your opponent happily and sincerely congratulates you for making their gaming expereince enjoyable, even if the outcome for them is defeat. And if you think that anyone's "skill" results in making others feel down after they play, I suggest you reconsider.

Finally, I must say that nothing is set in stone, and that things change. At one point or another, there surely exists players who don't think that edge guarding is fun. However, its ubiquity in gameplay has led to it becoming an acceptable practice.


Summary:
-People play for fun, and you are not allowed to take that from them.
-The best players have happy enemies.
-The acceptability and commonality of techniques is dynamic.

Click to expand...

I agree 100%. You should be a Mod or something.

I've beaten people I felt were better than me then it was proven because my sheik lost to his samus.

really I think this is how it is you have a style I have one you aren't better i'm not better just different. from rollout.


really I like teh spammer's matches I could see how care some of his traps were even if that is the worse stage ever and I wanted it banned. teh spammer is amaing from the videos i've seen.

I dunno, Hbox has always been really entertaining for me to watch. Probably one of my favorite players out there, maybe it would be different if I was good enough to even go to a tournament and then get ***** by him.

I think the notion that people are playing this game for fun gets thrown out the window when you are trying to win.

Or at least, having fun becomes secondary to winning.

You can have fun, and win, but you can also win and not have fun, or you can lose and have fun, or lose and not have fun. It really depends on you, and your mindset, and how you choose to respond to actions and situations that may come up in a tourney set.

Personally, I try not to dwell to hard on my opinions of a player if I cannot beat them. In Hbox's case, I hear constantly that he plays gay, that jiggs is the reason he wins, that all he does is bair, I ignore this **** because he wins and the people I hear it from don't beat him either so what they have to say about his style of play matters very little to me.

My group of smashers struggles with this mindset. If I'm losing to a playstyle that I think is unintelligent/lucky/un-deserving of success I don't say ****, I may be unhappy at the time, but I keep my mouth shut till I find a way around it. Because if you cannot beat a playstyle, you have no right to talk down about it, and you're only holding yourself back from overcoming it by making excuses for why it doesn't need to be overcome. 'That wouldn't work against a better player' - Become that better player, and show that person that it doesn't work, then you can talk.

People are too busy making excuses for losing to find ways to win.

knihT said:

I think the notion that people are playing this game for fun gets thrown out the window when you are trying to win.

Or at least, having fun becomes secondary to winning.

You can have fun, and win, but you can also win and not have fun, or you can lose and have fun, or lose and not have fun. It really depends on you, and your mindset, and how you choose to respond to actions and situations that may come up in a tourney set.

Personally, I try not to dwell to hard on my opinions of a player if I cannot beat them. In Hbox's case, I hear constantly that he plays gay, that jiggs is the reason he wins, that all he does is bair, I ignore this **** because he wins and the people I hear it from don't beat him either so what they have to say about his style of play matters very little to me.

My group of smashers struggles with this mindset. If I'm losing to a playstyle that I think is unintelligent/lucky/un-deserving of success I don't say ****, I may be unhappy at the time, but I keep my mouth shut till I find a way around it. Because if you cannot beat a playstyle, you have no right to talk down about it, and you're only holding yourself back from overcoming it by making excuses for why it doesn't need to be overcome. 'That wouldn't work against a better player' - Become that better player, and show that person that it doesn't work, then you can talk.

People are too busy making excuses for losing to find ways to win.

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I think Mango often calls Hbox's style gay, and he can beat Hbox, so? Also, I don't know if I agree that if you lose to someone you can't form an opinion of their playstyle (for the record, I have nothing against Hbox)

Also, I think the "that wouldn't work vs a better player" is almost good advice. You could be preventing people in your crew from developing bad habits and such. Just a thought, though.

@Rock Crock, while I agree that people generally play for fun, since people have different opinions of what is "fun," it's kind of a moot point.

I personally find Chain grabbing quite fun. After I finally catch a Fox or Falco after chasing them around the map for 2 minutes, I really want to kill them. I LIKE gimping people. Heck, I even somewhat enjoy breaking through a camping player, which would not happen if not for them camping in the first place. Predicting when they're going to move to a platform and punishing them for it is a good feeling. Gimping someone in the middle of their planking is hella fun to me.


And with that in mind, it's not unreasonable to believe that some players enjoy camping, planking, or wobbling too (maybe not wobbling, since it's simple to maintain once it's started, but actually GETTING the wobble seems like a fun process to me). And in their minds, it's likely not even labeled by such words (as we've given them very negative connotations). Camping or Planking could just be "walling" or "baiting" to them, as their goal is to get you to make a mistake and punish you for it.


Heck, maybe it's not even that they find such tactics fun, merely that they hate losing. Nobody honestly likes to be knocked out of the bracket. They're going to use the best tools available to them to win the match. If the strategy is truly broken, then IT SHOULD BE BANNED. If they're playing by the rules then they're playing fair. If they're playing fair and win then their winning fairly. When I see a Sheik chaingrab Pichu from zero to death for 4 stocks, I don't blame the Sheik player. I blame the developers for making Pichu bad and for making Sheik's d-throw too good, and I blame the Pichu player for choosing to play that matchup in spite of this. It's not like they didn't know this could happen.



When I fight HBox, I don't really feel like he's trying to play gay. He's actively pressuring me with one of his character's best moves, and simply playing a very good spacing game. He ducks to eliminate options, he edgeguards flawlessly, he goes for rests off of prediction alone (since Marth is kinda hard to rest outside of recovering <_<), he's just a good player. Heck I congratulate him when I lose too, even if I'm not always happy about it (hey, I'm just a sore loser in general, I'm just courteous)



There are countless examples I could give, but the main point is that if a player is utilizing things within the rules and winning, then he is skilled. "Real skill," is just a concept made by players to undermine victories coming from strategies that they personally don't like. If their style of play keeps you from having fun, then simply say that. Their style is gay, their style is boring, their style is unsportsmanlike, but their style is NOT "unskilled" because they're obviously winning with it.

love threads like these

lol

reminds me of something mew2king said after he started planking us with Jigglypuff and timing us out (in friendlies)

"Playing gay like this brings a giant smile to my face"

Play to win, not to do fancy moves..This is if you want to do good in tournaments.Playing for fun is the mantra of a scrub.Its an excuse they use to explain why they suck so bad.People who take the game more serious and push for the next level not only play a deeper game but have more fun doing it also.

RockCrock: I do not play this game *in tournament* to have fun. I play this game with friends to have fun. I bought it because I believed I would have fun. I went to tournaments because I wanted to beat strangers.

When it comes to winning, I do not believe in right and wrong ways to play or "real skill." I think timing people out in friendlies when you're playing to relax and and chill is a lame thing to do because it destroys the environment. I think camping the *** off your friends while PRACTICING is completely and utterly legit. The goal of a tournament is to determine "who is the best?" We determine the best player by who wins. Any legal strategy that leads to that victory is fair game and should be encouraged. You owe it to yourself and your friends to give them experience against as many strategies as possible during your important practice time.

Your friend doesn't do it because it's lame. You don't do it because it's lame. Some guy goes up against you in tournament, doesn't care about being lame, and since you don't have practice fighting it or doing it back, he wins. You can console yourself regarding its lameness later, but you're still *out.* And you can't rightfully kick somebody out for being lame if they play by the rules. That Pink Shinobi match? I think if he could *actually* beat Mango that way then he absolutely 100% should, especially if it's the only way he's going to win. I don't go into matches intentionally picking strats that I think will cause me to lose, I pick ones that I believe at the time will lead to victory.

Do I have fun with this game? Absolutely. There is a reason that, when I play friendlies, I don't infinite or even execute my chaingrabs until death because that is not the purpose of the friendly. The purpose of the friendly is recreational fun. However, when me and my friends say, "let's practice for this tournament," I go full-bore, both-barrels ******* because they deserve no less from me as a training partner, and I will be doing no less in tournament.

Again, when I play this game to win, I do not play to have fun. Fun is an occasional by-product. I play for the satisfaction of solid execution and defeating my opponent, and for the exhilaration that comes from a close match. When I play this game to have fun, I don't camp, I play Puff and go for off-the-stage rests, I'll be ICs and try complicated edgeguards that are incredibly inefficient. I attack aggressively and sometimes mindlessly, because hitting them lets me do silly combos and getting hit lets THEM do silly combos. It's win-win, typically. For fun, I want awesome things to happen.

In tournament? I want awesome things to happen for *me*, specifically my victory. I never, ever hold it against my opponent for trying to do the same. Otherwise, what's the point? Let's just all play friendlies. Let's unban all the levels with broken strategies because we're all great sports and won't ever play "gay" to win. None of us will camp the side cloud on Yoshi's Island, none of us will run circles around Hyrule Temple after landing a laser, and none of us will play Peach and camp a Venom wing by throwing turnips straight into the air.

I love having fun with this game, and I love playing it to win, and I love it when both of these miraculously coincide. But I don't go out of my way to make that happen, because though they aren't mutually exclusive objectives, they are different.

Uck said:

Play to win, not to do fancy moves..This is if you want to do good in tournaments.Playing for fun is the mantra of a scrub.Its an excuse they use to explain why they suck so bad.People who take the game more serious and push for the next level not only play a deeper game but have more fun doing it also.

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Not everybody with that mentality is actually bad, by the way. RockCrock is absurdly good and a great guy also. I disagree with him but don't delude yourself into thinking he's not a terrific player.

Vro said:

learn2link to og source

i think what's most interesting is that players such as wobbles feel the need to get the plebeians' approval. haters gon hate.

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Please like me.

YOU HAVE NO SKILL

PLAY FOR HONOR

STUFF

WOBBLING SHOULD BE BANNED

JIGGLYPUFF SHOULD BE BANNED

FINAL DESTINATION

POLYMERIZATION

why is I.B in this thread

Not everybody with that mentality is actually bad, by the way. RockCrock is absurdly good and a great guy also. I disagree with him but don't delude yourself into thinking he's not a terrific player.[/QUOTE]


Thats not what I mean.Terrific players mess around all the time.Playing to win and fun do coincide.It his self propaganda to think you only have fun when your doing friendlies and not in the actual tournament.Your letting the scrubs incorrectly define the word fun.

Uck said:

Thats not what I mean.Terrific players mess around all the time.Playing to win and fun do coincide.It his self propaganda to think you only have fun when your doing friendlies and not in the actual tournament.Your letting the scrubs incorrectly define the word fun.

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Well, I can't tell people what they should or shouldn't find fun or not. Some people don't think it's fun to get shine spiked four times in a game. I think it's fun to get shine spiked four times, then spend time finding ways around it and succeeding. I also think Falcon dittos are tremendous fun even though when I try t o play them with Darkrain he four-stocks me. Funnily enough, I think I enjoy those games more than he does.

Point is, you can't incorrectly define "fun" because it's incredibly subjective. Hence my premise that the two can coincide, but making "fun" the primary goal of tournament play causes you to exclude people with different playstyles and attitudes. Which I heavily dislike.

I know, I know- "But aren't these games supposed to be about fun!?" Remember where you first heard that sentiment? When you were on a little-league team that sucked. It was the coach's pre-game "pep talk" to soften the impact of the beating you all knew you were about to take. There's nothing wrong with having fun- my concern is to point out the way in which so many scrubs use the idea of "having fun" as an excuse to never really get any good; to hide their inability to really play. They can pretend to laugh off their losses because they were "just having fun". So why bother? It's another of those cheap devices for soothing their own damaged egos. Not only will these guys will not only never be real competitors (they like to take a pathetic "moral high-ground" on this one, claiming: "Well if that's what it takes, then I don't want to win! I'll never give up having fun!"), but they actually miss out on the best kind of reward these games have to offer.There's something deeply satisfying about seeing these games played truly well. It has a kind of beauty all it's own. A well-played match has a flow like nothing else- that you'll never see just screwing around, no matter how big the combos, or how wacky the tactics. "Fun" is used not only as an excuse for lazy slop play, it's also (of course) used against certain tactics. Usually those same tactics that make you work to get around them. This is a new kind of sadness all it's own, as in the vast majority of cases, counter tactics exist. Finding these, and the back and forth of complex tactics is one of the greatest pleasures these games offer. But no- we should give that up for the "fun" of being able to slap our buttons the same ways we used to. Scrubs.

Finally, the idea that you can't win and have fun at the same time needs to be exposed as the mysterious scrub propaganda that it is.There are a lot of aspects to "fun", not least of which is the special joy of winning a serious competition. Look at the faces of everyone in the Olympics (the ones that aren't already sitting on fat million dollar "I don't have to care what happens" contracts, anyway)- is anyone having fun? You ever see anything other than those scary "for the judges" smiles? No. The only time you see these hardcore competitors really smile is following... what? A dominating performance. One where they know they've just done exactly what they needed to do- for themselves, team, country. Fortunately, SF tournaments (and SF generally) have a lot more opportunities for fun than this. Most every top player I know has a ton of fun playing these games- and unquestionably more than the losing, button slapping scrubs who console themselves by thinking the winner must have "given up his humanity" or some nonsense to get that good. In fact, groups of top players have more fun playing these games, hanging out at the arcade, than any other group I've ever seen playing, and I've seen a lot. The idea that fun can't go together with winning isn't just confused, it's exactly wrong. These guys are playing the game better, more satisfyingly, seeing more in it, and getting to beat everyone down at the same time. Fun.
--Seth Killian-- Some more insight from domination 101 website.

<3 of course

You could have thrown in wobbling someone all 4 stocks as what people call "not real skill" yet they managed at least 4 synced grabs over 40% and pulled off the wobble every time.

i actually disagree with "playing to have fun =/= playing to win"

whenever i'm playing my best, it's motivated almost entirely by positive emotions
learning to have fun whenever you play, in the gayest of situations, will make your mindset better, resulting in more wins later down the line

-joeplicate

god **** it, im sure u think ur smart wobbles, but your post just shows how stupid you are.

Not because of the content (i actually agree with most of it), but because you have yet to realize this community wont change. I play jiggs so i get **** talked every time i beat someone, even though i dont play "gay", but because im not insecure and im a realist, i dont try to convince others i dont play gay, i just **** them so hard that they never want to play this game again, and then mabye some day all the idiots that play this game will quit.

The Idea of a tournament is for everyone to compete and the best man should win. I think that when something is absurdly broken it stands in the way of that. no disrespect to PinkShinobi but he placed much higher then he probably should have at genesis. People way better got bracket gayed, Controller gayed, or timed out. Don't get me wrong but If I lose a match to bowser and I have to switch to Falco and Laser spam him I won't hesitate. I may not find it fun but I will try my best to win and move on. However Laser spam is not broken. You can jump around it with most characters, Duck them, or Shield reflect. To me when something leads to a victory without the other player having any options of stopping them then it is gay. If you get gimped by Fox, Sheik, Falco, Marth, Doc, Ganon.....pretty much anyone then it is your fault. If you get you are counter picked and someone times you out it is not your fault. If you are at 0% and a IC's player is at 100+% and grabs you and wobbles you....there is nothing you can do about it. If someone gets sheik and planks you there is nothing you can do about it.

Back throw>Gimp with Marth is ****ing gay but it is avoidable. Even Puff's Rest is avoidable in many situations people just get read>*****. I feel there should be nothing of the "I can't do anything about it" Nature allowed because it takes away from what it means to compete. I mean I can beat Usain Bolt in a Race if I put super glue on his shoes and 50 pound weights on him but that will never make me better than him.


Armada is not just good but he is hella good. I have never once seen him rest on a lead or time someone out. He is an example of a Skilled peach that plays to win and gets it done with no bull****.

KK is too good <3

Great post wobbles. Addressing rockcrock: if they want to play soley for fun they have no business at tournaments.

if you get timed out or wobbled, that most definitely is a result of your inability to stop it from happening.

Spam_arrows said:

To me when something leads to a victory without the other player having any options of stopping them then it is gay.

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If such a situation exists then it should simply be banned, it's not the player's fault for utilizing it.

Spam_arrows said:

If you are at 0% and a IC's player is at 100+% and grabs you and wobbles you....there is nothing you can do about it.

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You could uh...not get grabbed WHILE Nana is standing right next to Popo. You could MASH OUT (considering you were at 0% and any decent masher should be able to break out in time since he knows the grab is coming).

Wobbling is MUCH easier to avoid than say, Sheik's chaingrab.

Deal with it <_<.

Spam_arrows said:

If someone gets sheik and planks you there is nothing you can do about it.

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You can grab the ledge and force Sheik onto the stage and punish her horrendous up B lag. People do this all the time <_<

Spam_arrows said:

I feel there should be nothing of the "I can't do anything about it" Nature allowed

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There isn't.

Spam_arrows said:

Armada is not just good but he is hella good. I have never once seen him rest on a lead or time someone out. He is an example of a Skilled peach that plays to win and gets it done with no bull****.

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Maybe because Peach as a character is not that good at timing people out? Try running away from a Fox, Falco, Marth, or Sheik for an entire match WITH PEACH. He's using the most effective strategies with Peach, which are COINCIDENTALLY entertaining to watch.

this thread is dumb

awesome read wobbles. i agree with everything. and i can feel the sarcasm seeping out of my poures