Each Ganon's personal MU-ratio 2010 - (Finished)

Wario approaches in the Air, so Space with uair's and pivot grabs. And we do have a chain grab on him. you can grab release >Regrab him all the way across FD to the edge for a gauranteed spike kill. I did it to Lee martin lol. And don't let Wario's air dodge into you they always try to do it, just pivot grab and Dair. lol. Stay under platforms on like Battlefield and other stages that have them. then Wario can't approach with his Dair, I could go into more detail but I dont feel like it. and DLA wario has good air movement but it doesnt mean you can't hit him and just dont get sucked in by the aerial mindgames. Wario sucks at gimping us btw. Uair *****. Watch the timer, avoid the fart.

50:50 IMO

U-air comes out reasonably fast and has good range, and none of Wario's aerials bar N-air is spectacularly fast (basically the speed of Marth's F-air or something). At the very least I fail to see how Wario gets in on reverse U-air before Ganon is allowed to block (and potentially U-air out of shield against a cheeky Wario who tries to get too fancy in close range). Even accounting his insane aerial mobility, I don't think he can feasibly punish the ending lag of reverse U-air before Ganon can block. It's not like he teleports right as Ganon's longer-ranged move ends.

And as this implies Wario must airdodge a lot, I'm with Fonz on not letting Wario airdodge. =)

A2ZOMG said:

U-air comes out reasonably fast and has good range, and none of Wario's aerials bar N-air is spectacularly fast (read Marth's F-air). At the very least I fail to see how Wario gets in on reverse U-air before Ganon is allowed to block (and potentially U-air out of shield against a cheeky Wario who tries to get too fancy in close range).

Click to expand...

Yes. Above that, Wario has no other approach which Ganon doesn't have an option against.

btw the Platform into forced getup thing i posted earlier....camp under the platform grab wario when he releases he lands on the platform and most likely will shield. easy way to set this up.

Ray_Kalm said:

If Wario DIs away first, Ganon can also DI away to avoid the contact with his aerials.

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Well you'd think so, since that's basic spacing right there. It's much easier said than done when Wario moves 2x faster than Ganon though.


I'm not saying Ganon can't hit Wario because of Wario's aerial movement. I'm saying that it's exceedingly easy for Wario to hit Ganon. Also, you guys seem to have forgotten about Wario's 0-90% chaingrab on Ganon. Just because most Wario's aren't gay enough to do it to you, doesn't mean that you should exclude it from the matchup.

Whatevs though, I'm done defending myself on this lol. I have extensive experience in this matchup... I'm just giving you guys my take on it. You don't have to listen to me if you don't want to, but I know what I'm talking about.

DLA said:

Well you'd think so, since that's basic spacing right there. It's much easier said than done when Wario moves 2x faster than Ganon though.


I'm not saying Ganon can't hit Wario because of Wario's aerial movement. I'm saying that it's exceedingly easy for Wario to hit Ganon. Also, you guys seem to have forgotten about Wario's 0-90% chaingrab on Ganon. Just because most Wario's aren't gay enough to do it to you, doesn't mean that you should exclude it from the matchup.

Whatevs though, I'm done defending myself on this lol. I have extensive experience in this matchup... I'm just giving you guys my take on it. You don't have to listen to me if you don't want to, but I know what I'm talking about.

Click to expand...

Aerial speed doesn't matter much when you have a move(s) that can beat an approach. You're not utilizing it correctly.

I'm listening DLA trust me, Chaingrab sucks yes, but truly Wario doesn't have a lot of approach options Ganon can space him pretty well. And I also have played Kryst, and hunger, and tons of other wario's.

Also on the chaingrab, Wario is going to be sketchy about coming in for a grab since we get a lot of BS out of our grabs as well.

It's easy for Wario to hit Ganon. If Ganon is approaching.

Which is why I specifically stated that Ganon gets punished hard for losing the lead, which is pretty much the main reason why I still believe Wario wins vs Ganon, since Ganon's ability to comeback after losing the lead is by far more limited since it's not like he automatically gets grabs when Wario approaches (while Wario can get a grab more easily on a Ganon who needs to approach). But if you have the percent lead in this matchup (which honestly is pretty easy for Ganon to get from the start of the match), Wario actually has to work to get back the lead. He has no simple way of approaching Ganon, and the wrong move can be punished severely. All of his grabs are generally speaking risky for him to do provided you know the ways he sets them up.

At any rate the advantage goes to whoever gets the lead, but Wario punishes significantly harder when he gets the lead.

Z1GMA: 25-75
Comment: Both characters have grab-shenanigans on the other.
However, Wario is more likely to grab you than vice versa.
Ganon is more dangerous when actually getting the grab, though.
We don't have any garantueed Gerudo Follow-ups on him except the Quake.
Wario can position himself for garantueed bites after like every other attack he lands upon us.
His aerial mobility makes it really hard to punish him.

Ray Kalm: 40-60
Comment: Full hop NAir can break many of his approaches (video example), Ganon should dodge and stall more often than be aggressive, it'll be very hard for Wario to hit us. While it is hard to grab him, it still is possible, and once we do, it'll usually result in heavy damage or a kill. Also, a grab at 0 % combos into a UAir > regrab > something else. I honestly don't find this match-up that bad at all. Ganon just has to play highly defensive in this MU.

Bahamut: 35-65
Comment: Kalm summed up almost everything. The worst thing in this MU is the annoying DAir shield pokes -> UAirs. It's a pain in the *** and I think it's almost unavoidable if your shield isn't at maximum.

A2ZOMG: 40-60
This is entirely a winnable matchup for Ganon, and I wish I had replays of my offline attempts at this matchup. Ganondorf actually has the tools to wall the hell out of Wario, and there is almost nothing Wario can do that will significantly punish N-air or U-air walls. Hell, you can spam reverse U-air all day and Wario actually has trouble approaching past it since it beats ALL his approaches, air or ground. By already removing most of Wario's advantages in reliably getting in for free with clever vertical spacing, he has to work a lot in order to kill you, while you getting the kill is only a matter of him getting grabbed at 80%, which isn't as unrealistic as it sounds as Ganon actually stands a good chance of getting the lead in the matchup due to Wario's lack of ways to safely approach him. Furthermore a well-placed F-tilt at high percents can put Wario in a position where Ganon can gimp him easily due to Wario's bad vertical recovery options.

Honestly this matchup could be closer, except you get punished HARD for losing the lead, since approaching Wario on the other hand is anything but fun and easy. And his chaingrab, while not necessarily the most important factor in this matchup (by far much less important than your grab release kill on him), is still a threat that you can't ignore.

DLA: 20-80

TBH, it sounds to me like you guys just don't fight enough good Warios offline. If I'm not mistaken, Wario has the fastest horizontal air speed in the game. You really think good Warios can't punish whiffed Nairs or Uairs? It may require some good timing, but once Wario gets inside, Ganon gets destroyed. Bite wrecks Ganon in this matchup, since you're going to be depending on your shield so much in this matchup just to try to shield Wario's ******** multi-hit moves.

Also, I'm not sure why you guys are underestimating Wario's chaingrab. It's 0-90%, if I remember correctly. That's almost as ******** as Pika's CG on spacies. Ganon's grab release Fsmash only does 26-30%, and it's a hell of a lot harder for Ganon to land a grab.

The only things Ganon has going for him in this matchup is the grab release shenanigans, and the fact that Wario doesn't have anything that directly shuts down Ganon's game. Other than that, Wario completely dominates Ganon in every aspect of the matchup... including killing power. So yeah, this is a pretty ridiculously bad matchup for Ganon, but not among his worst.

holy crap these are going so fast :/

thexsunrosered said:

holy crap these are going so fast :/

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Yeah, I change character after one or two days.

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: 0 - 100
Comment: Lasers, lasers and more lasers - They lock us down completely.
Falco can chaingrab us + additional attack for like 70% damage.
His Jab Game is also a pain for Ganon.
There's really no way to consistantly punish his Phantazm on stage.

Moving on:

Vs

Z1GMA: 0 - 100
Comment: Lasers, lasers and more lasers - They lock us down completely.
Falco can chaingrab us + additional attack for like 70% damage.
His Jab Game is also a pain for Ganon.
There's really no way to consistantly punish his Phantazm on stage

Exalted: 5 - 95
Comment: As Z1GMA said, lasers are our biggest enemy in this matchup as we have no way of getting through them. His speed and good grab and jab game against Ganon makes him a ***** to KO. We have a slight chance of getting something going if we land a Gerudo, and his fast falling speed makes him somewhat susceptible to strings.

Z1GMA: 0 - 100
Comment: Lasers, lasers and more lasers - They lock us down completely.
Falco can chaingrab us + additional attack for like 70% damage.
His Jab Game is also a pain for Ganon.
There's really no way to consistantly punish his Phantazm on stage

Exalted: 5 - 95
Comment: As Z1GMA said, lasers are our biggest enemy in this matchup as we have no way of getting through them. His speed and good grab and jab game against Ganon makes him a ***** to KO. We have a slight chance of getting something going if we land a Gerudo, and his fast falling speed makes him somewhat susceptible to strings.

the king of murder: 5-95
Comment: If it wasn't for his lasers, this MU wouldn't be so gay for Ganon since his camping game wouldn't be as good. He has an annoying chaingrab, his tilt game can lead to combos and his ability to pressure us is incredibly high. But there is a chance of winning this. Falco has a poor recovery and can be gimped by Ganon. Once the oppurtunity shows we have to use it. Our best move in this MU is Uair since it's our fastest and best gimp move. So we have to predict, punish and get him offstage.

Z1GMA: 0 - 100
Comment: Lasers, lasers and more lasers - They lock us down completely.
Falco can chaingrab us + additional attack for like 70% damage.
His Jab Game is also a pain for Ganon.
There's really no way to consistantly punish his Phantazm on stage

Exalted: 5 - 95
Comment: As Z1GMA said, lasers are our biggest enemy in this matchup as we have no way of getting through them. His speed and good grab and jab game against Ganon makes him a ***** to KO. We have a slight chance of getting something going if we land a Gerudo, and his fast falling speed makes him somewhat susceptible to strings.

the king of murder: 5-95
Comment: If it wasn't for his lasers, this MU wouldn't be so gay for Ganon since his camping game wouldn't be as good. He has an annoying chaingrab, his tilt game can lead to combos and his ability to pressure us is incredibly high. But there is a chance of winning this. Falco has a poor recovery and can be gimped by Ganon. Once the oppurtunity shows we have to use it. Our best move in this MU is Uair since it's our fastest and best gimp move. So we have to predict, punish and get him offstage.

Supreme Dirt: 0-100
Lazors of death. Sure he has no kill power, but that ceases to be a problem at 200%.

SMASHKNG 10-90
Comment: Lasers and jabs destroys us in this MU, it's annoying that Wizard Kick doesn't beat them, even if you can PS consistently we have nothing fast enough to punish it, you can only predict his follow-ups with it, but if you make amazing reads it's not over, but they have to be really, really, really precise with predicting Illusions. Also chain spike can kill us. Anyway this MU sucks and is definitely at least our 2nd worst MU after IC.

Comment: Lasers, lasers and more lasers - They lock us down completely.
Falco can chaingrab us + additional attack for like 70% damage.
His Jab Game is also a pain for Ganon.
There's really no way to consistantly punish his Phantazm on stage

Exalted: 5 - 95
Comment: As Z1GMA said, lasers are our biggest enemy in this matchup as we have no way of getting through them. His speed and good grab and jab game against Ganon makes him a ***** to KO. We have a slight chance of getting something going if we land a Gerudo, and his fast falling speed makes him somewhat susceptible to strings.

the king of murder: 5-95
Comment: If it wasn't for his lasers, this MU wouldn't be so gay for Ganon since his camping game wouldn't be as good. He has an annoying chaingrab, his tilt game can lead to combos and his ability to pressure us is incredibly high. But there is a chance of winning this. Falco has a poor recovery and can be gimped by Ganon. Once the oppurtunity shows we have to use it. Our best move in this MU is Uair since it's our fastest and best gimp move. So we have to predict, punish and get him offstage.

Supreme Dirt: 0-100
Lazors of death. Sure he has no kill power, but that ceases to be a problem at 200%.

SMASHKNG 10-90
Comment: Lasers and jabs destroys us in this MU, it's annoying that Wizard Kick doesn't beat them, even if you can PS consistently we have nothing fast enough to punish it, you can only predict his follow-ups with it, but if you make amazing reads it's not over, but they have to be really, really, really precise with predicting Illusions. Also chain spike can kill us. Anyway this MU sucks and is definitely at least our 2nd worst MU after IC.

Vermanubis: 5-95
Comment: Falco can force a lot of bad habits out of a Ganon. A lot like Snake, or any character with jabs, Falco can force rolls out of you and follow-up on them because your only option is to roll, and due to Ganon's speed, he's left pretty much helpless. Then we have lasers; tied with chainspike for his best tool against Ganon. Lasers destroy every one of our approaches and makes it so Falco can easily follow-up for kills and make set-ups in general. Then he can just phantasm away when you're close. Then we have the chainspike. Unless you let Falco laser you to 45%, you run a high risk of getting grab and killed. I've tested DIing and meteor cancel/teching, and they only work when the Falco does a spike close to the stage.

Then another problem arises with Falco being smart and just not lasering you at all so you're within grab percents. Overall, his priority and range shut down most tools we have and out speed really shows how it hurts us in this one. The part is that his recovery is pretty easy to gimp and he's not very hard to kill.

Comment: Lasers, lasers and more lasers - They lock us down completely.
Falco can chaingrab us + additional attack for like 70% damage.
His Jab Game is also a pain for Ganon.
There's really no way to consistantly punish his Phantazm on stage

Exalted: 5 - 95
Comment: As Z1GMA said, lasers are our biggest enemy in this matchup as we have no way of getting through them. His speed and good grab and jab game against Ganon makes him a ***** to KO. We have a slight chance of getting something going if we land a Gerudo, and his fast falling speed makes him somewhat susceptible to strings.

the king of murder: 5-95
Comment: If it wasn't for his lasers, this MU wouldn't be so gay for Ganon since his camping game wouldn't be as good. He has an annoying chaingrab, his tilt game can lead to combos and his ability to pressure us is incredibly high. But there is a chance of winning this. Falco has a poor recovery and can be gimped by Ganon. Once the oppurtunity shows we have to use it. Our best move in this MU is Uair since it's our fastest and best gimp move. So we have to predict, punish and get him offstage.

Supreme Dirt: 0-100
Lazors of death. Sure he has no kill power, but that ceases to be a problem at 200%.

SMASHKNG 10-90
Comment: Lasers and jabs destroys us in this MU, it's annoying that Wizard Kick doesn't beat them, even if you can PS consistently we have nothing fast enough to punish it, you can only predict his follow-ups with it, but if you make amazing reads it's not over, but they have to be really, really, really precise with predicting Illusions. Also chain spike can kill us. Anyway this MU sucks and is definitely at least our 2nd worst MU after IC.

Vermanubis: 5-95
Comment: Falco can force a lot of bad habits out of a Ganon. A lot like Snake, or any character with jabs, Falco can force rolls out of you and follow-up on them because your only option is to roll, and due to Ganon's speed, he's left pretty much helpless. Then we have lasers; tied with chainspike for his best tool against Ganon. Lasers destroy every one of our approaches and makes it so Falco can easily follow-up for kills and make set-ups in general. Then he can just phantasm away when you're close. Then we have the chainspike. Unless you let Falco laser you to 45%, you run a high risk of getting grab and killed. I've tested DIing and meteor cancel/teching, and they only work when the Falco does a spike close to the stage.

Then another problem arises with Falco being smart and just not lasering you at all so you're within grab percents. Overall, his priority and range shut down most tools we have and out speed really shows how it hurts us in this one. The part is that his recovery is pretty easy to gimp and he's not very hard to kill.

Terodactyl Yelnats: 10-90
Comment: Falco is horrible. You can't even touch him without a good read or prediction. Falco's speed is amazing, he has the fastest spotdodge and a 2 frame jab, his lasers autocancel at any time, his sideB is reliably fast against Ganon and his best aerials have little start up and landing lag.

Against the chainspike, try to SDI onto the stage and tech it. If Falco goes offstage from the dair then you can go for tipmans for a cool gimp. Offstage when he's recovering with SideB, our lingering nair ***** him and sets up for a uair. If he tries to airdodge then you can simply edgehog. Good luck getting him offstage though.

Comment: Lasers, lasers and more lasers - They lock us down completely.
Falco can chaingrab us + additional attack for like 70% damage.
His Jab Game is also a pain for Ganon.
There's really no way to consistantly punish his Phantazm on stage

Exalted: 5 - 95
Comment: As Z1GMA said, lasers are our biggest enemy in this matchup as we have no way of getting through them. His speed and good grab and jab game against Ganon makes him a ***** to KO. We have a slight chance of getting something going if we land a Gerudo, and his fast falling speed makes him somewhat susceptible to strings.

the king of murder: 5-95
Comment: If it wasn't for his lasers, this MU wouldn't be so gay for Ganon since his camping game wouldn't be as good. He has an annoying chaingrab, his tilt game can lead to combos and his ability to pressure us is incredibly high. But there is a chance of winning this. Falco has a poor recovery and can be gimped by Ganon. Once the oppurtunity shows we have to use it. Our best move in this MU is Uair since it's our fastest and best gimp move. So we have to predict, punish and get him offstage.

Supreme Dirt: 0-100
Lazors of death. Sure he has no kill power, but that ceases to be a problem at 200%.

SMASHKNG 10-90
Comment: Lasers and jabs destroys us in this MU, it's annoying that Wizard Kick doesn't beat them, even if you can PS consistently we have nothing fast enough to punish it, you can only predict his follow-ups with it, but if you make amazing reads it's not over, but they have to be really, really, really precise with predicting Illusions. Also chain spike can kill us. Anyway this MU sucks and is definitely at least our 2nd worst MU after IC.

Vermanubis: 5-95
Comment: Falco can force a lot of bad habits out of a Ganon. A lot like Snake, or any character with jabs, Falco can force rolls out of you and follow-up on them because your only option is to roll, and due to Ganon's speed, he's left pretty much helpless. Then we have lasers; tied with chainspike for his best tool against Ganon. Lasers destroy every one of our approaches and makes it so Falco can easily follow-up for kills and make set-ups in general. Then he can just phantasm away when you're close. Then we have the chainspike. Unless you let Falco laser you to 45%, you run a high risk of getting grab and killed. I've tested DIing and meteor cancel/teching, and they only work when the Falco does a spike close to the stage.

Then another problem arises with Falco being smart and just not lasering you at all so you're within grab percents. Overall, his priority and range shut down most tools we have and out speed really shows how it hurts us in this one. The part is that his recovery is pretty easy to gimp and he's not very hard to kill.

Terodactyl Yelnats: 10-90
Comment: Falco is horrible. You can't even touch him without a good read or prediction. Falco's speed is amazing, he has the fastest spotdodge and a 2 frame jab, his lasers autocancel at any time, his sideB is reliably fast against Ganon and his best aerials have little start up and landing lag.

Against the chainspike, try to SDI onto the stage and tech it. If Falco goes offstage from the dair then you can go for tipmans for a cool gimp. Offstage when he's recovering with SideB, our lingering nair ***** him and sets up for a uair. If he tries to airdodge then you can simply edgehog. Good luck getting him offstage though.

Ray Kalm: 05:95
Comment: Lazers block all Ganon's approaches, slow jumps, and even shield and rolls. There's nothing you can do about them. Your best bet would be to constantly slowly shield your way towards him with no rolls or jump WHATSOEVER. This way you can't be punished for mistakes (Falco's predicaments), and suffer low lazer damage. Just know when he will phantom and react accordingly. But, a Falco who knows what he/she is doing will never lose to a Ganon.

Fonz :
Falco (I dunno really) 25:75?

certain things before detail. but if he tries to Jab >Grab you can spot dodge the grab everytime. THE CHAINGRAB TO SPIKE WILL NEVER KILL YOU EVER EVER EVER. You can simply jump and Up+B on the stage everytime. Lasers are easily PS'ed, if you can't PS them then you need to learn to. Bad falco's will laser a lot, and that's what gets them punished. Ask Larry he says Falco's laser to much. You need to JAB A LOT in this MU. Use the grounded Wizkick offstage to knock falco out of his Side-B to gimp him. especially if they like to do the drop below the stage jump side-B stupidness that ='s easy Wizkicks or ledgegrab edgeguards. Just WALK at Falco and PS his lasers until you get to that Sweep Distance.

When Falco's are SH Lasering (Not double):
Move in to about sweep distance (To the point where they have to DASH to grab you) This leaves them with only a few options. The most basic and safe one for them is to side-B and run away to the other side. This can be shielded, don't really try to hit him cause your too slow. His other ones are DA or Dash grab. both can be beaten by Dair (If you PS the laser) If you don't roll away instantly. You can also Jab to stop his Approaches after the laser, if he shields the jab then you need to GTFO, but since your at sweep distance he can't shield very quickly due to Dash startup lag. The last thing he can do is Roll or just keep Lasering. if he lasers keep waiting or you can be risky and try to jab his landing lag it's risky because Lasers shut down most attacks. If he rolls well Punish his stupidity with Ganons Thunderstomp.

Where you want Falco:
In the AIR, Uair *****...his Dair is awesome but our UAir *****. you want to be diagnolly below and to his FRONT. his Bair ***** don't contest it. Falco's Air dodge sucks, Punish it. Get him offstage as much as possible. Like I said use the Wizkick to gimp. It knocks him straight out of the Phantasm unless he is straight up in your face. IF FALCO EVER uses his UP+B and he doesnt DIE. you need to work on your edge game because you absolutely choked. Tipmans and grab the ledge, simple stuff.

Things to avoid:
Jab > Grab setup....Spot dodge it then roll away. Yes you can spot dodge it.
Nair > Grab.....Don't let falco Fall ontop of you where this can happen.
Dair's you into the ground Walk away F-smash. Falco's do this all the time be careful look for it.
He can also jab after the dair to a grab. DI away to avoid the jab after the Dair.
At high %'s avoid Getup attacks on the ledge if they shield it they can Usmash.

If you shield their smash attacks depending on spacing you can try to punish with Jab or DA. Doesn't have to be a perfect shield. If he Dair's your shield and is DI'ing to your front JAB HIM. if the back just move away.

Ways they look for kills:
Laser to Usmash, Fsmash on the ledge. Or Bair. If you are at the sweep distance your jab will come out before their Usmash if you perfect shield the Laser. If you didn't PS then stay in shield or roll away. Bair is easy to see coming. Fsmash will hit you on the ledge be careful.

Falco SUCKS off the map, DO NOT be afraid about recovering you **** EVERYTHING he can do to you offstage. (getting back on stage is different lol)...Smarter Falco's will walk and Jab, and Ftilt a lot these are dangerous to us it's hard pressure, Control the center of the stage so you have somewhere to retreat. I.E. platforms. Watch your DI on his Ftilt it can put us into bad situations.

ALSO TRY TO FSMASH the Phantasm every once in a while YOU CAN GET LUCKY! This is a very frustrating and difficult MU, but it's not impossible. Play patient and don't lose your cool. Your rarely going to have percent lead. Just get the first kill and then he has to approach. His Throws CANNOT kill so if you have to play Shieldy when at high percents if your up a stock.

Don't gerudo it's worthless in this MU, Falco's Love to Spotdodge Punish it with Dair. Unless they PS the dair its pretty safe if you space it correctly.

This is all I can think of now Sorry I didn't go into extreme Detail, but I'm tired lol. And btw this isn't even half of what I have written down for Falco in my Notebook lolz.

Fonz and his magic notebook...ahhhhhh.

The main thing is to WALK against Falco, just Walk. This is just basic stuff but I hope it helps. remember reading won't win you the MU you gotta play people to understand basic habits and mind-games of the character.

And Sorry I didn't really post for MK, Snake, and Wario, but I might soon lol

fonzi21 said:

The main thing is to WALK against Falco, just Walk. This is just basic stuff but I hope it helps. remember reading won't win you the MU you gotta play people to understand basic habits and mind-games of the character.

And Sorry I didn't really post for MK, Snake, and Wario, but I might soon lol

Click to expand...

Hm, you may actually know what you're talking about.

But, yeah, as I said so myself, don't approach with jumps/rolls/run or power shield. Walk the entire match with your fingers lying on the shield button and react accordingly.

That was a long-*** post. I don't know if I feel like writing an analysis anymore, because it will probably be worthless in comparison. Oh well.

A2ZOMG: 20/80

Falco is gay. His safe camp game ensures it. Basically all you can do in this match is hope he makes a dumb mistake when you get into midrange and make sure he suffers each time he makes a mistake. Gimping him is fun when applicable. For the most part though he can just sit back and camp you into oblivion and there is nothing you can do to punish it unless he tries unnecessarily hard to kill you.

Man Fonz is ****** this thread. I don't even want to post anymore because I'll sound like a whiny ***** in comparison.

Every post he makes, the more I realize that my Ganon is mediocre in tournaments because I don't put ANY effort into learning a lot of these matchups. At least, not beyond "wait for them to make a mistake and punish it".

I mean, think of how many moves that Ganon has that other characters would absolutely KILL for. We have by far the best dash attack in the game (imagine MK with Ganon's dash attack), as well as one of the best Uairs, Dairs, and probably Fair's if the developers weren't ******** and broke it.

So yeah, unless I actually have something of substance to add, I won't be posting in this thread until I stop feeling sorry for myself and actually learn how good Ganon can be at these matchups.

And Fonz, your notebook of Ganonic wisdom sounds incredible and you'd probably single-handedly advance the metagame more than it has advanced within the past year if you typed it all out for us. It's one thing to just jot down a few tips on the matchup... but it really seems like you put an incredible emphasis on Ganon's options in specific situations in each matchup. The amount of effort you put in is mind-blowing to me. And I'm sure every single Ganon would benefit from it, because it doesn't seem like any other Ganon has gone into nearly the amount of detail as you have in learning these matchups.

It sounds like you've been busy, but I'm sure we'd all really appreciate it if we were able to see the contents of this notebook. In the meantime, I'll start one of my own and see what I can come up with.

ya my bad i forgot this is a short comment thing, lol

DLA and everyone else here is smart enough to figure out what I wrote down, when you go into match-ups just watch for patterns and think about what can someone do in this situation. You dont need to know what you can do you need to know what THEY can do.

If I do move A, they have these options so what can I do to cover the most options or to LOOK like im covering the safest option but expecting the mix-up. Your all smart enough for it. I just wrote it down to remember it.

The funniest part is i have it all for Ganon but im still doing it for lucario hahaha i did Ganon before my main.

DLA said:

We have by far the best dash attack in the game

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2'nd best after ZSS' imo.

I'm not gonna lie, I think if fonz made his own matchup thread it would really benefit all of us. Yeah we're all smart enough but you already know it all

How bout I just post in the regular ones when I get the time lol.

thexsunrosered said:

I'm not gonna lie, I think if fonz made his own matchup thread it would really benefit all of us. Yeah we're all smart enough but you already know it all

Click to expand...

Haha this XD

Posting in the regular threads would help too if you're busy though. Maybe you can just type it all in a word document or something so you don't have to pound it all out at once. Then just copy and paste it into a post once it's finished.

Either way, the help is appreciated though

DLA said:

Haha this XD

Posting in the regular threads would help too if you're busy though. Maybe you can just type it all in a word document or something so you don't have to pound it all out at once. Then just copy and paste it into a post once it's finished.

Either way, the help is appreciated though

Click to expand...

I'll see what I can do. and I'm happy to help.

Vs (Dedede)

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: If it weren't for D3's Chaingrab, this match would be more like 40:60.
We have a lot going for us against him.
His Waddle Dees are very easy to powershield -> iDA.
Same goes for his Ftilt: Powershield -> iDA.

A D3-player who's good with Inhale is annoying.
Inhale is the only tool D3 has that can stop our momentum when we're juggling him.

D3 also kill us earlier than vice versa, for the most part.

Vs (Dedede)

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: If it weren't for D3's Chaingrab, this match would be more like 40:60.
We have a lot going for us against him.
His Waddle Dees are very easy to powershield -> iDA.
Same goes for his Ftilt: Powershield -> iDA.

A D3-player who's good with Inhale is annoying.
Inhale is the only tool D3 has that can stop our momentum when we're juggling him.

D3 also kill us earlier than vice versa, for the most part.

Ray Kalm: 25:75
Comment: Disagreeing with Z1gma, Dedede's waddle dees are easy to powershield, but very unpredictable due to how Ganon is suppose to play in this match-up. You'll have the threat of being grabbed repeatedly, so waddle dees become more of a menace when you try to avoid them.

If it weren't for his waddle dees, Ganon would be able to lure Dedede into a lot of stuff.

Anyways, your best bet in this match-up would be staying in the air for the most part, and using your second jump to avoid AND punish any attempts Dedede makes against you in the air. In the ground, stay away from him, and NEVER approach him; try your very best to force him to waddle dee you and use his lag time to walk closer to him or punish him with dash attack if you're in range. Never try punishing him with anything else since it'll most likely result in you getting attacked.

Some other things you should keep in mind is, once you're in a chain grab, ALWAYS repeatedly spam the "A" button (Jab). This way if he tries dash attacking or FSmashing, you won't get hit. It'll also help if he messes up his chain grab (trip, missclick etc.)

Once again, to summarize; Never approach Dedede, force him to waddle dee you and strike according to that. Remember to never dash towards him, unless you plan on rolling backwards and forcing that waddle dee. ALWAYS punish his waddle dee lag with dash attack. And if you're smart enough, you should predict the move/air dodge he will do after he gets hit by that dash attack and punish accordingly.

Other than that, if he puts more pressure on by approaching you aggressively. Jump too the air, and then play smart by SECOND JUMPING away from the direction he tries to punish you. If he doesn't punish you and stays at the ground, then GET AWAY from him and repeat the process(es) I mentioned above. As simple as that.

Out of gerudo, always go for a DTilt.

Vs (Dedede)

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: If it weren't for D3's Chaingrab, this match would be more like 40:60.
We have a lot going for us against him.
His Waddle Dees are very easy to powershield -> iDA.
Same goes for his Ftilt: Powershield -> iDA.

A D3-player who's good with Inhale is annoying.
Inhale is the only tool D3 has that can stop our momentum when we're juggling him.

D3 also kill us earlier than vice versa, for the most part.

Ray Kalm: 25:75
Comment: Disagreeing with Z1gma, Dedede's waddle dees are easy to powershield, but very unpredictable due to how Ganon is suppose to play in this match-up. You'll have the threat of being grabbed repeatedly, so waddle dees become more of a menace when you try to avoid them.

If it weren't for his waddle dees, Ganon would be able to lure Dedede into a lot of stuff.

Anyways, your best bet in this match-up would be staying in the air for the most part, and using your second jump to avoid AND punish any attempts Dedede makes against you in the air. In the ground, stay away from him, and NEVER approach him; try your very best to force him to waddle dee you and use his lag time to walk closer to him or punish him with dash attack if you're in range. Never try punishing him with anything else since it'll most likely result in you getting attacked.

Some other things you should keep in mind is, once you're in a chain grab, ALWAYS repeatedly spam the "A" button (Jab). This way if he tries dash attacking or FSmashing, you won't get hit. It'll also help if he messes up his chain grab (trip, missclick etc.)

Once again, to summarize; Never approach Dedede, force him to waddle dee you and strike according to that. Remember to never dash towards him, unless you plan on rolling backwards and forcing that waddle dee. ALWAYS punish his waddle dee lag with dash attack. And if you're smart enough, you should predict the move/air dodge he will do after he gets hit by that dash attack and punish accordingly.

Other than that, if he puts more pressure on by approaching you aggressively. Jump too the air, and then play smart by SECOND JUMPING away from the direction he tries to punish you. If he doesn't punish you and stays at the ground, then GET AWAY from him and repeat the process(es) I mentioned above. As simple as that.

Out of gerudo, always go for a DTilt.

A2ZOMG: 35/65
Comment: A gay and bad matchup, but Ganon has more tools in this matchup than others.

Getting chaingrabbed sucks, that's not new for Ganon. After you get chaingrabbed chances are you're in a 50/50 situation that determines whether or not you get gimped, so being able to read how DDD will edgeguard you is important.

A lot of DDD's strategy is shield camping, so Flame Choke is very valuable in this matchup for that reason alone, and more valuable if you have mastered all three of your 10 frame followups on him (D-tilt, F-tilt, DA). Just be wary of his spotdodge.

His F-tilt and Waddle Dees can be powershielded and punished when powershielded. If you have a lead, there is no reason for you to approach DDD and the situation is in your favor by far. His grabs can be baited and punished too, and well-spaced F-airs are good when that situation arises.

Buffered Fullhop U-air and Buffered Fullhop N-air both can hit a standing DDD on the ground and the advantage to this especially on a stage with platforms is being able to use an attack on DDD that he cannot shieldgrab. On BF, buffered fullhop U-air autocancels on platforms keep in mind.

Juggling and edgeguarding DDD is both good obviously.

Guys, I won't add all your hint/tips to the OP.
I just want personal ratios and a couple of comments.

You know the stuff that normally isn't shown in the OP of MU-threads.

I appritiate your write-ups, but save 'em for the character-specific match-ups.

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: If it weren't for D3's Chaingrab, this match would be more like 40:60.
We have a lot going for us against him.
His Waddle Dees are very easy to powershield -> iDA.
Same goes for his Ftilt: Powershield -> iDA.

A D3-player who's good with Inhale is annoying.
Inhale is the only tool D3 has that can stop our momentum when we're juggling him.

D3 also kill us earlier than vice versa, for the most part.

Ray Kalm: 25:75
Comment: Disagreeing with Z1gma, Dedede's waddle dees are easy to powershield, but very unpredictable due to how Ganon is suppose to play in this match-up. You'll have the threat of being grabbed repeatedly, so waddle dees become more of a menace when you try to avoid them.

If it weren't for his waddle dees, Ganon would be able to lure Dedede into a lot of stuff.

Anyways, your best bet in this match-up would be staying in the air for the most part, and using your second jump to avoid AND punish any attempts Dedede makes against you in the air. In the ground, stay away from him, and NEVER approach him; try your very best to force him to waddle dee you and use his lag time to walk closer to him or punish him with dash attack if you're in range. Never try punishing him with anything else since it'll most likely result in you getting attacked.

Some other things you should keep in mind is, once you're in a chain grab, ALWAYS repeatedly spam the "A" button (Jab). This way if he tries dash attacking or FSmashing, you won't get hit. It'll also help if he messes up his chain grab (trip, missclick etc.)

Once again, to summarize; Never approach Dedede, force him to waddle dee you and strike according to that. Remember to never dash towards him, unless you plan on rolling backwards and forcing that waddle dee. ALWAYS punish his waddle dee lag with dash attack. And if you're smart enough, you should predict the move/air dodge he will do after he gets hit by that dash attack and punish accordingly.

Other than that, if he puts more pressure on by approaching you aggressively. Jump too the air, and then play smart by SECOND JUMPING away from the direction he tries to punish you. If he doesn't punish you and stays at the ground, then GET AWAY from him and repeat the process(es) I mentioned above. As simple as that.

Out of gerudo, always go for a DTilt.

A2ZOMG: 35/65
Comment: A gay and bad matchup, but Ganon has more tools in this matchup than others.

Getting chaingrabbed sucks, that's not new for Ganon. After you get chaingrabbed chances are you're in a 50/50 situation that determines whether or not you get gimped, so being able to read how DDD will edgeguard you is important.

A lot of DDD's strategy is shield camping, so Flame Choke is very valuable in this matchup for that reason alone, and more valuable if you have mastered all three of your 10 frame followups on him (D-tilt, F-tilt, DA). Just be wary of his spotdodge.

His F-tilt and Waddle Dees can be powershielded and punished when powershielded. If you have a lead, there is no reason for you to approach DDD and the situation is in your favor by far. His grabs can be baited and punished too, and well-spaced F-airs are good when that situation arises.

Buffered Fullhop U-air and Buffered Fullhop N-air both can hit a standing DDD on the ground and the advantage to this especially on a stage with platforms is being able to use an attack on DDD that he cannot shieldgrab. On BF, buffered fullhop U-air autocancels on platforms keep in mind.

Juggling and edgeguarding DDD is both good obviously.

Vermanubis: 10:90
Comment: I'm confused as to where some people are getting such good MU ratios. D3 literally has to nothing but shield and grab to win this MU. Even if you're careful as hell, one mistake spells getting CGed and/or gimped. He can kill you about 50x easier than you can kill him, and virtually nothing Ganon does is safe at all. The only good thing about this MU is that D3 can't overwhelm Ganon with speed. But he can wall, camp, gimp, kill and stall with ease. We can juggle him, sure, but that's about it.

Though, a lot like Snake, it is true that the MU becomes much easier when Ganon has a lead. But he needs a very, very strong lead. Like a full stock.

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: If it weren't for D3's Chaingrab, this match would be more like 40:60.
We have a lot going for us against him.
His Waddle Dees are very easy to powershield -> iDA.
Same goes for his Ftilt: Powershield -> iDA.

A D3-player who's good with Inhale is annoying.
Inhale is the only tool D3 has that can stop our momentum when we're juggling him.

D3 also kill us earlier than vice versa, for the most part.

Ray Kalm: 25:75
Comment: Disagreeing with Z1gma, Dedede's waddle dees are easy to powershield, but very unpredictable due to how Ganon is suppose to play in this match-up. You'll have the threat of being grabbed repeatedly, so waddle dees become more of a menace when you try to avoid them.

If it weren't for his waddle dees, Ganon would be able to lure Dedede into a lot of stuff.

Anyways, your best bet in this match-up would be staying in the air for the most part, and using your second jump to avoid AND punish any attempts Dedede makes against you in the air. In the ground, stay away from him, and NEVER approach him; try your very best to force him to waddle dee you and use his lag time to walk closer to him or punish him with dash attack if you're in range. Never try punishing him with anything else since it'll most likely result in you getting attacked.

Some other things you should keep in mind is, once you're in a chain grab, ALWAYS repeatedly spam the "A" button (Jab). This way if he tries dash attacking or FSmashing, you won't get hit. It'll also help if he messes up his chain grab (trip, missclick etc.)

Once again, to summarize; Never approach Dedede, force him to waddle dee you and strike according to that. Remember to never dash towards him, unless you plan on rolling backwards and forcing that waddle dee. ALWAYS punish his waddle dee lag with dash attack. And if you're smart enough, you should predict the move/air dodge he will do after he gets hit by that dash attack and punish accordingly.

Other than that, if he puts more pressure on by approaching you aggressively. Jump too the air, and then play smart by SECOND JUMPING away from the direction he tries to punish you. If he doesn't punish you and stays at the ground, then GET AWAY from him and repeat the process(es) I mentioned above. As simple as that.

Out of gerudo, always go for a DTilt.

A2ZOMG: 35/65
Comment: A gay and bad matchup, but Ganon has more tools in this matchup than others.

Getting chaingrabbed sucks, that's not new for Ganon. After you get chaingrabbed chances are you're in a 50/50 situation that determines whether or not you get gimped, so being able to read how DDD will edgeguard you is important.

A lot of DDD's strategy is shield camping, so Flame Choke is very valuable in this matchup for that reason alone, and more valuable if you have mastered all three of your 10 frame followups on him (D-tilt, F-tilt, DA). Just be wary of his spotdodge.

His F-tilt and Waddle Dees can be powershielded and punished when powershielded. If you have a lead, there is no reason for you to approach DDD and the situation is in your favor by far. His grabs can be baited and punished too, and well-spaced F-airs are good when that situation arises.

Buffered Fullhop U-air and Buffered Fullhop N-air both can hit a standing DDD on the ground and the advantage to this especially on a stage with platforms is being able to use an attack on DDD that he cannot shieldgrab. On BF, buffered fullhop U-air autocancels on platforms keep in mind.

Juggling and edgeguarding DDD is both good obviously.

Vermanubis: 10:90
Comment: I'm confused as to where some people are getting such good MU ratios. D3 literally has to nothing but shield and grab to win this MU. Even if you're careful as hell, one mistake spells getting CGed and/or gimped. He can kill you about 50x easier than you can kill him, and virtually nothing Ganon does is safe at all. The only good thing about this MU is that D3 can't overwhelm Ganon with speed. But he can wall, camp, gimp, kill and stall with ease. We can juggle him, sure, but that's about it.

Though, a lot like Snake, it is true that the MU becomes much easier when Ganon has a lead. But he needs a very, very strong lead. Like a full stock.

Tonsana: 20 -80
Bairs and cahingrabs will kill you. Good luck.

Z1GMA: 20 - 80
Comment: If it weren't for D3's Chaingrab, this match would be more like 40:60.
We have a lot going for us against him.
His Waddle Dees are very easy to powershield -> iDA.
Same goes for his Ftilt: Powershield -> iDA.

A D3-player who's good with Inhale is annoying.
Inhale is the only tool D3 has that can stop our momentum when we're juggling him.

D3 also kill us earlier than vice versa, for the most part.

Ray Kalm: 25:75
Comment: Disagreeing with Z1gma, Dedede's waddle dees are easy to powershield, but very unpredictable due to how Ganon is suppose to play in this match-up. You'll have the threat of being grabbed repeatedly, so waddle dees become more of a menace when you try to avoid them.

If it weren't for his waddle dees, Ganon would be able to lure Dedede into a lot of stuff.

Anyways, your best bet in this match-up would be staying in the air for the most part, and using your second jump to avoid AND punish any attempts Dedede makes against you in the air. In the ground, stay away from him, and NEVER approach him; try your very best to force him to waddle dee you and use his lag time to walk closer to him or punish him with dash attack if you're in range. Never try punishing him with anything else since it'll most likely result in you getting attacked.

Some other things you should keep in mind is, once you're in a chain grab, ALWAYS repeatedly spam the "A" button (Jab). This way if he tries dash attacking or FSmashing, you won't get hit. It'll also help if he messes up his chain grab (trip, missclick etc.)

Once again, to summarize; Never approach Dedede, force him to waddle dee you and strike according to that. Remember to never dash towards him, unless you plan on rolling backwards and forcing that waddle dee. ALWAYS punish his waddle dee lag with dash attack. And if you're smart enough, you should predict the move/air dodge he will do after he gets hit by that dash attack and punish accordingly.

Other than that, if he puts more pressure on by approaching you aggressively. Jump too the air, and then play smart by SECOND JUMPING away from the direction he tries to punish you. If he doesn't punish you and stays at the ground, then GET AWAY from him and repeat the process(es) I mentioned above. As simple as that.

Out of gerudo, always go for a DTilt.

A2ZOMG: 35/65
Comment: A gay and bad matchup, but Ganon has more tools in this matchup than others.

Getting chaingrabbed sucks, that's not new for Ganon. After you get chaingrabbed chances are you're in a 50/50 situation that determines whether or not you get gimped, so being able to read how DDD will edgeguard you is important.

A lot of DDD's strategy is shield camping, so Flame Choke is very valuable in this matchup for that reason alone, and more valuable if you have mastered all three of your 10 frame followups on him (D-tilt, F-tilt, DA). Just be wary of his spotdodge.

His F-tilt and Waddle Dees can be powershielded and punished when powershielded. If you have a lead, there is no reason for you to approach DDD and the situation is in your favor by far. His grabs can be baited and punished too, and well-spaced F-airs are good when that situation arises.

Buffered Fullhop U-air and Buffered Fullhop N-air both can hit a standing DDD on the ground and the advantage to this especially on a stage with platforms is being able to use an attack on DDD that he cannot shieldgrab. On BF, buffered fullhop U-air autocancels on platforms keep in mind.

Juggling and edgeguarding DDD is both good obviously.

Vermanubis: 10:90
Comment: I'm confused as to where some people are getting such good MU ratios. D3 literally has to nothing but shield and grab to win this MU. Even if you're careful as hell, one mistake spells getting CGed and/or gimped. He can kill you about 50x easier than you can kill him, and virtually nothing Ganon does is safe at all. The only good thing about this MU is that D3 can't overwhelm Ganon with speed. But he can wall, camp, gimp, kill and stall with ease. We can juggle him, sure, but that's about it.

Though, a lot like Snake, it is true that the MU becomes much easier when Ganon has a lead. But he needs a very, very strong lead. Like a full stock.

Tonsana: 20 -80
Bairs and cahingrabs will kill you. Good luck.

DLA: 10 - 90
Don't get grabbed. If you do, don't get gimped. I agree with Kalm on the idea of only spamming A once you get grabbed, because it covers all of the options when DDD does a mix-up/trip/misses the CG. Also, try to wizkick spike their recovery from on the stage, Albert L (aka Vex Kasrani) style. Even if they DI the right way and survive, it sets up a nice tech chase opportunity. Though I think they might punish you if they tech the stage straight up--not sure.

I didn't do too bad against Junk's DDD, and he's a legit CenCal player.

That's probably why I don't think the matchup is that terrible. =/