European Brawl Tier List?

Marc · Oct 4, 2011

The question is simple: would you be interested in seeing a Brawl tier list for Europe? If enough people are in favour of this, I can run it in a similar fashion as the PAL Melee tier list, which involved a select group of people from each country voting.

How many is enough? Not sure, but deciding on cutoff points after the data gets in seems to be in fashion these days. :troll:

Spam this poll on your boards and in the chat(s).

Flayl · Oct 4, 2011

No other europeans on the boards I frequent, but yeah I'd like to see it. I have a question though, is this going to ignore all outside results like KTAR 6?

xDD-Master · Oct 4, 2011

+1

Idea is good.

Anaky · Oct 4, 2011

Yeah we shud definatly do it, and maybe agree on a ruleset as well?

Marc · Oct 4, 2011

Flayl said:
No other europeans on the boards I frequent, but yeah I'd like to see it. I have a question though, is this going to ignore all outside results like KTAR 6?

It will be an average of the opinions provided. You don't have to ignore American results, but I'm imagining European results are mostly colored by European experiences.

xDD-Master · Oct 4, 2011

Posted it in the german board (http://forum.germansmash.de/showthread.php?17201-Europ%E4ische-Tier-List)

We have a different metagame, so I think a Tier List to represent this is a good idea

Marcbri · Oct 5, 2011

http://smashbrosspain.com/posting.p...a090a035deaab4dc762201ce3f9d7&t=4926&p=108993

posted

Slice~ · Oct 5, 2011

do it.. do it!

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 5, 2011

By now our metagame has evolved in a way unique enough to warrant its own tier list. We've had [inter-]national tournaments, some sort of consistency in character usage and our own character rankings. The time is definitely right to start discussing a tier list if people want to. I'd be down to help :]

FailX · Oct 5, 2011

Of cause we need an own tier list!

borjantonio · Oct 5, 2011

yes da tac si, etc

Lord Chair · Oct 5, 2011

borjantonio said:
yes da tac si, etc

wat

real dude

Greward · Oct 5, 2011

that marth real strong

yeah lets do this

Redrix · Oct 5, 2011

Yep, would be nice to have our own tier list.

Yikarur · Oct 5, 2011

doesn't make sense

Slyon · Oct 5, 2011

da

borjantonio gayyy

Legend Vermillion · Oct 5, 2011

Yes, I think nowadays its necesary to have our own list.

Talvi · Oct 6, 2011

Would this imply using the same ruleset? Since some countries use different rules.

Lord Chair · Oct 6, 2011

Sudden influx of random Europeans wat is dis.

Rulesets don't differ in praxis, the biggest difference you'll see between rulesets is PS2 being legal or the amount of ledge grabs allowed.

Unless Spain still has Brinstar legal?

crifer · Oct 6, 2011

I don´t like the idea of an european tier list or at least think it´s unnecassary.
We just don´t have enough representation of some characters which is a big factor for atier list. Characters that are highly underrepresented in EU: Olimar (there´s only greward, who travels not OOC), pika (I know there are some french, which are pretty good(ok), Lucario, D3.

How do we want to explain a high position of some Characters when there is like no one who represents the character not only in their state but in the EU? Like I know we have to take in the potential of the characters and we still can see that mk is clearly the best character, but you get what I mean...

Marc · Oct 6, 2011

Talvi said:
Would this imply using the same ruleset? Since some countries use different rules.

I don't think one or two stages make a huge difference, though I might ask everyone to assume 10 stages as I believe that's becoming the standard. I'll show you the current Dutch stage list:

Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Story

Counterpicks:
Castle Siege
Delfino
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1

Does any country have a drastically different stage list? I believe we also all have a LGL and I don't really know what other rules we differ on. Finland will probably have to be excluded though, no MK means their metagame is different.

crifer said:
I don´t like the idea of an european tier list or at least think it´s unnecassary.
We just don´t have enough representation of some characters which is a big factor for atier list. Characters that are highly underrepresented in EU: Olimar (there´s only greward, who travels not OOC), pika (I know there are some french, which are pretty good(ok), Lucario, D3.

How do we want to explain a high position of some Characters when there is like no one who represents the character not only in their state but in the EU? Like I know we have to take in the potential of the characters and we still can see that mk is clearly the best character, but you get what I mean...

It's not so much a tier list just for the European metagame as it is the European opinion. The game is the same, but we have a different outlook, a different rulesets and different experiences with it. In broad lines it will probably be the same as the "regular" tier list and my personal vote for it will be the exact same most likely. For characters we don't really have here, look at the US. Even people in the US sometimes have to look at other regions, as characters like Pikachu aren't that common there either.

Yikarur · Oct 6, 2011

+Pokemon Stadium 2 in germany
and we have a 30/60 LGL (MK/Non MK)
and a lot of people tend to use 9 minutes (didn't use that yet, just discussions about it)

Marc · Oct 6, 2011

PS2 is the most neutral CP you can have matchupwise as far as I know, so I don't think that's a huge factor. In the Netherlands we have a LGL of 40 for the entire cast and I'm not too concerned with changes to the timer not universally implemented (yet?).

Laem · Oct 6, 2011

Not enough players per character here in the EU seems like a quite a problem to me, but one that can be worked around i guess.
EU tierlist is pretty cool, but if Marth ended up in 2nd place (need I even explain why?) I'd be mad salty, for real.

On the other hand, differences like 8 or 9 min timer, an extra stage like PS2 and differences in LGL seem pretty negligible to me.

Yikarur · Oct 6, 2011

Marc said:
PS2 is the most neutral CP you can have matchupwise as far as I know, so I don't think that's a huge factor. In the Netherlands we have a LGL of 40 for the entire cast and I'm not too concerned with changes to the timer not universally implemented (yet?).

I hoped it will be standard to rise the timer to 9 in US but that'll be probably not the case =(
and Ps2 is cool, really.
I hate how people are against stages just because it's not like SV/BF/FD :/

Anaky · Oct 6, 2011

Yeah Marc we use those exact stages. Also we do a 40 ledge grab limit for all characters and Metaknight we use 30.

xDD-Master · Oct 6, 2011

PS2 is fine.
LGL is fine.
10 min timer please.
Every stage as starter (Striking from all 11).
And probably this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=301373 (But without Bans)

That would be like my "dream ruleset", even though there are many differences to the standard xP

And yeah the Character Thing is kinda a problem, but as Tonie already said, that can be worked around, and Marth 2... i dont think so, I think MK/Diddy will still be 2. But Marth/Wario will get more "attention", thats for sure.

Anaky · Oct 6, 2011

I dont like that idea of every stage as a starter, and the 10 minute timer is too much, its best to keep it as less campy as possible imo. Also we use a 8min timer.

Now im here i also wanna ask what you guys have done abotu standing infinites? Like Dedede's small step infinite on donkey kong and also his standing infinite on Luigi etc etc. Also Marth's standing infinite on Ness and Lucas, plus any more character that have infinites, please remind me.

Marcbri · Oct 6, 2011

Lord Chair said:
Sudden influx of random Europeans wat is dis.

Rulesets don't differ in praxis, the biggest difference you'll see between rulesets is PS2 being legal or the amount of ledge grabs allowed.

Unless Spain still has Brinstar legal?

We removed Brinstar for NSTV

xDD-Master · Oct 6, 2011

In germany we dont ban match up specific stuff.
That said, all infinits are legal (Which imo is correct).

Luigi player · Oct 6, 2011

xDD-Master · Oct 6, 2011

^ good point

Flayl · Oct 6, 2011

Infinites legal is fine, just remember that it creates a double standard if you have a MK specific LGL (you're fixing certain character's matchups with MK but not matchup specific infinites)

~ Gheb ~ · Oct 6, 2011

Anaky said:
10 minute timer is too much, its best to keep it as less campy as possible imo.

One thing has nothing to do with the other.

Edit: And your opinion hardly matters in this case. Why should it be important how campy *you* think the game is supposed to be?

xDD-Master · Oct 6, 2011

^ 2 good points

Yikarur · Oct 6, 2011

Flayl said:
Infinites legal is fine, just remember that it creates a double standard if you have a MK specific LGL (you're fixing certain character's matchups with MK but not matchup specific infinites)

lol ledge grab limit is not to fix MK match-ups, it's more to fix exzessive stalling, don't mix that together, there is no double standard of that kind here.

Flayl · Oct 6, 2011

Read again, I said a MK-specific LGL. As in you have 60 LGL for all characters and 30 for MK.

Mew2King · Oct 6, 2011

Europe, be smarter than USA, make the timer 10 minutes instead of 8, to DISCOURAGE timeouts

(if there's 1 min left for example, you would probably try to time them out; If there's 3 min left, you'd realize it's not a likely to be smart/feasible idea in a close game). I'd argue it shortens tourneys rather than extending them, but more importantly makes it harder to "gay" people out (I quote gay because many people see things as "gay" if there is ledge scenanigans or timeouts involved).

That's my 2 cents. If you guys are smart you'll listen to me and help save your community at least. ally agrees with me on this timer thing too btw

Mew2King · Oct 6, 2011

I'm gonna double post to say WOW YOUR STAGE LIST IS WAY BETTER THAN OURS

I've been trying to get rid of Brinstar and RC forever but the BBR kept voting it down (the SAME BBR members that voted to ban MK, then complained it was about his stages or ability to time people out, ALSO voted against changing the timer or changing/reducing the stages) so the ruleset change I've been trying to have happen for past 2 years never came into effect

so good job on that part

Greward · Oct 6, 2011

I'm thinking that maybe we should change FD for PS1 on starters. inal Destination is too much of a stage focused on certain characters while it's the best stage for a lot of them. The matchup difference that this stage offers is so large it shouldn't be a starter imo.
Anyways i don't think it's a great issue and i'll try to host a tourney here with this little change (the next one in october's 29-30).
LGL should be about 5 grabs per minute for all chars

+1 to M2K on the 10 minutes timer

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