European Brawl Tier List?

[Anaky]

Now that I think about it my post made no sense, what M2K said is completly true, a 10minute timer would prevent camping.

 

[xDD-Master]

Yeah 10 Minutes da bess!
M2K da Bess! You should come to Europe =D

@Greward: Yeah BF, SV, YI, LC, PS1 is pretty good and seems better than both, 7 starters Method or 5 Starters with FD and without YI, LC or PS1.

 

[Lord Chair]

10 minutes should've been staple ages ago.

 

[xDD-Master]

Yaah true.

lets change it in the future ^^

 

[Marc]

In germany we dont ban match up specific stuff.
That said, all infinits are legal (Which imo is correct).

Same here. Never see the matchups where it applies in the first place though (wonder why ). We could consider a 10 minute timer, but I'm still a little doubtful about the time it takes and then timeouts aren't a major issue here anyway. Not really the scope of the topic though.

I'm gonna double post to say WOW YOUR STAGE LIST IS WAY BETTER THAN OURS

I've been trying to get rid of Brinstar and RC forever but the BBR kept voting it down (the SAME BBR members that voted to ban MK, then complained it was about his stages or ability to time people out, ALSO voted against changing the timer or changing/reducing the stages) so the ruleset change I've been trying to have happen for past 2 years never came into effect

so good job on that part

Glad you like it. I have to say about the BBR though that they/we only wanted to advise against stages that are absolutely broken. I'm a BBR leader and I've personally always ran with limited stage lists, but it's somehow hard to get a consensus on that when Americans are involved.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If we change the timer to 10 minutes I'd agree with that, even though knowing that in our case it's just cosmetics.

 

[King Funk]

Imo, dutch or german stage list, 10 minute timer and a new tier list for Europe overall. We could also do a vote on the LGL count.

 

[AtneyB]

Marth for Super God Tier

 

[Luigi player]

ps1 sucks .

 

[Orion*]

lol please put ps1 for neutral.

I think FD is balanced but I don't mind not facing good characters game 1 on sv/bf.

 

[Marc]

Considering an overwhelming majority is in favour of doing this, I'll try to have a proposal up for this at the end of the week (though I also have the new BBR matchup chart to worry about).

I'm likely going to assign a representative to each European country who is tasked with collecting lists of a given number (roughly based on the country's strength) of people at their discretion. AKA I'm delegating the **** out of this and need people to collect lists for me, so please speak up if you want to do this for your country. Likely won't be more than 10 for even the biggest countries.

 

[xDD-Master]

I would do it / help ypu (At least for the german part), but idk how much time I will have next week, because my study will start.
Maybe I'll still have enough, but maybe I wont D:

But I think, Germany wont be a problem anyway.
We are actually 11 people in the German BBR. You probably should orientate to that people, I will send you a list per PM.

 

[Anaky]

Il do it for the UK. Atm I have infinite time unless I get a reply from this job, which is probably unlikely.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I can help for austria :]

 

[Marcbri]

We are kinda doing that for NSTV atm, we were undecided. I can help with it.

 

[xDD-Master]

We are kinda doing that for NSTV atm

A tier list XD?

 

[Marcbri]

no lol, I was thinking of another thing dunno why (stages and stuff), I can still help for the tier list

 

[Orion*]

Atm I have infinite time.

Making a 6 hour per day tech skill regiment

 

[-Jumpman-]

What's the point of having a 10 minute timer when there are no timeouts? Tbh, timeouts aren't a problem by definition. And consider the low number of matches that do result in timeouts, making tourneys longer by getting ourselves a 10 min timer is p dumb.

 

[Lord Chair]

Every tournament has two or three timeouts and in Europe those aren't strictly caused by planking.

Increasing the timer does 2 things:
- It allows those matches to finish up properly, perhaps slowing the tournament down 5 minutes boohoo.

- It discourages camping the last minute after 6.5 minutes because you're predicting a timeout to happen. If there's still 3.5 minutes on the clock and both players start a fresh stock, people will be less tempted to actually go for the timeout as opposed to 1.5 being left in the same situation.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Why let these matches finish "properly"? And why is finishing without timeouts considered to be the proper way to finish?

 

[Lord Chair]

Because I say so

If you say it's arbitrary to make 'proper' endings the preferred ones, I think you're forgetting one important fact:

Adding the timeout rulings was the first arbitrary thing.

No way you're convincing anyone the main purpose of the game is to time your opponent out. We invented the timeout ruling to make tournaments run more smoothly, that doesn't mean it should be stimulated to end matches this way.

 

[xDD-Master]

^ Agreed ^-^

 

[-Jumpman-]

Because I say so

If you say it's arbitrary to make 'proper' endings the preferred ones, I think you're forgetting one important fact:

Adding the timeout rulings was the first arbitrary thing.

No way you're convincing anyone the main purpose of the game is to time your opponent out. We invented the timeout ruling to make tournaments run more smoothly, that doesn't mean it should be stimulated to end matches this way.

No one is stimulated to end the matches by timeouts. And the whole ruleset is arbitrary, that's definitely not an argument.

 

[Flayl]

That was his point...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What's the point of having a 10 minute timer when there are no timeouts? Tbh, timeouts aren't a problem by definition. And consider the low number of matches that do result in timeouts, making tourneys longer by getting ourselves a 10 min timer is p dumb.

Tournaments do not take longer just because you increase the timer.

 

[Marc]

I could see that happen though, as people take 10 minutes as a new anchor. In some matchups neither player wants to approach the other and having more time just moves the point where someone feels pressured because he's behind in damage. I also wonder how big of a problem timeouts really are in Europe, but I guess people could experiment and actually back all this up with results.

EDIT: More of an ontopic thing, how do people feel about Sheilda? This is the optimal combination of Sheik and Zelda and can therefore never be lower than the highest of the other two (Sheik usually). It's better in a few matchups to use both, but in practice it's rare and Sheilda and Sheik are usually very close on the tier list. Do we want to have the entry or not?

 

[Marcbri]

Although I originally supported that character I feel its a bit stupid to have both shek and sheilda because they are kinda the same. I would just take on account the ability to change to the other character thus there would only be sheilda. Since Zelda alone is a low tier and needs to be represented as allowed for low tier tournaments. I would like to have sheilda (sheik thinking of the ability to transform) and just zelda. but no just sheik.

My 2 cents.

 

[-Jumpman-]

That was his point...

You don't get my point, gtfo, you don't even play this game.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I wonder what the euro tier list would look like. Sounds interesting

/USApost

 

[Flayl]

You don't get my point, gtfo, you don't even play this game.

Somehow you getting mad makes me feel better. Cheers.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Somehow you getting mad makes me feel better. Cheers.

typing gtfo = mad

 

[xDD-Master]

EDIT: More of an ontopic thing, how do people feel about Sheilda? This is the optimal combination of Sheik and Zelda and can therefore never be lower than the highest of the other two (Sheik usually). It's better in a few matchups to use both, but in practice it's rare and Sheilda and Sheik are usually very close on the tier list. Do we want to have the entry or not?

Well I think we should either not include Sheilda but Zelda & Sheik, OR Sheilda only.
Having 3 spots is kinda stupid. It all depends on the view, if you see Zelda/Sheik as 1 or 3 Characters.
As in fact, Zelda/Sheik are WORSE than Sheilda, and in a competitive Community we aim for the best, and therefore every Sheik should use Zelda if its better, and every Zelda should use Sheik.
When you decide to include Sheilda AND stil have Zelda/Sheik alone, you could as well include individuel Pokemons, or Solo Climber, or Solimar. Or even Diddy Kong without Bananas...
Getting my point?

 

[Marc]

Zelda needs to be on her own for low tier and in practice most people use Sheik on her own, save for a few matchups. Personally I think we should have Sheik and Zelda separately at the very least. Sheilda is more of a consideration for consistency with the American tier list, but I personally don't care much for the entry. Perhaps Light and/or Biggad begs to differ?

As for other considerations: individual Pokémon can't really be mained due to fatigue and ZSS/Samus can't keep changing freely. Examples like Diddy without bananas make this a slippery slope when there isn't really one.

 

[Meru.]

Now if there were a big difference between Sheik/Zelda and Sheik only, I wouldn't have mind a seperate tier ranking for Sheik/Zelda. Sadly, Zelda barely makes a difference because she's just not a good character (and she's not getting any better either).

There is simply so little Zelda can do for Sheik, I don't think adding Sheik/Zelda will do any good. Likely Sheik/Zelda and Sheik would end up right next to each other anyway, Sheik/Zelda being one spot higher, so what's the point?

imo

 

[-Jumpman-]

Why list 'em? Chars with two options can't possibly be lower than the highest of the two, meaning it has no relevance for tourneys.

 

[Lord Chair]

Well, if one character covers a MU the other one is bad at it matters. Why would you say Sheik is bad at fighting X character if Zelda actually counters it?

 

[-Jumpman-]

Well, if one character covers a MU the other one is bad at it matters. Why would you say Sheik is bad at fighting X character if Zelda actually counters it?

Yes, because the person wouldn't be playing Sheik in the first place.

 

[Marc]

There are a few matchups where transforming to Zelda makes a difference for Sheik's killing power, but as Yaaay said, Sheilda and Sheik tend to be almost next to each other on the tier list. I'm currently of the mind to not have the Sheilda entry, if only because I already know that more than half the voters will have no idea what to do with it. =X

 

[Yikarur]

9 minutes pls.
3 minutes per Stock
is this concept so hard to understand?
it's not even like a timer increase is necessary but increasing it THAT much?
8 to 9 is better than 8 to 10, the raise is to huge and because it's not even NEEDED there is no justification for such a huge jump.