Can VS CPU Teach You Anything?

Hey folks, seems nobody replied to the other thread regarding trying to find people to play with on Dolphin, so this brings up another question.

Anytime I boot up Brawl all I can really do is play CPU, so I typically pick 2 Characters (Other than me) set them to Lv.9, turn all items OFF and pit my Bowser against them - Obviously this will never EVER even come close to playing real people but does playing CPU give anyone else any sense of fun, practice or learning at all?

Let's face it, I think I already know the answer given every game that has AI always causes characters to react via scripts and they don't use the characters to max-effect (Such as not based on matchups, predictable, patterned play) but seeing as I know next to nothing about Brawl I could be wrong.

Until I'm in a position to play actual people though, I'm stuck - It's still a hell of a lot of fun but anyone will know this won't improve your skill too much.

Thoughts?

The OP was self-explanatory. Of course you won't learn a lot from it. It also creates bad habits like excessive rolling.

Well when im learning a new character I like to face off against CPU's to practice with them, I usually start off in training mode to practice combos and AT, then move on to CPU to practice what i just learned. So i suppose they still serve a teaching purpose.... err... well atleast training.

Points taken and noted.

I already roll excessively, mostly because the CPU has a habit of shield-grabbing anything I do all day or just charging in with crazy moves excessively, or locking me into seemingly permanant moves - I try to DI (That the word? My knowledge of Brawl Slang is 0%) but it never seems to influence me that much and push me out of it.

Example, I usually play CPU mid or heavyweights as I find them easier to learn against as I can practice punishes and aren't just being steamrolled by quick/fast hitting nonsense, but even if you have, say, DK / D3, or my latest attempt vs ROB & Wario, they just seem to love ganging up on the non-CPU together and get stuck in some nonsense.

You're right, I knew the answer before I even posted, but it's still worth asking to get other perspectives - Until I find myself in a position to be able to play actual people, this is as good as it'll get for me, so no harm trying to get other opinions on what I should at least try to learn vs CPU's.

I upload the occasional match to my channel purely to show something different to the subscribers - I know I'm playing like an idiot, mostly because the CPU kinda encourages you to do so and when you expect them to just throw out random moves or know they'll happily lock you down, shield-grab you when you use a move or do dodge your attacks, you end up rolling like crazy.

There's no point asking people to critique my play because if it works vs CPU and it's all I'm ever going to play then it shouldn't matter, but if people have any idea what I *should* be practicing feel free to give some tips.

*I fail at grabs when my character and a target character overlap - I put a lot of it down to me being on Keyboard but truthfully that shouldn't matter. In short, if a character rolls, say, a pixel behind me, or I roll a pixel infront of them, and press grab, I find myself grabbing the wrong direction 50% of the time. This sometimes happen even if I'm holding the direction I want to grab.

*Terrible at teching.

*Roll too much.

*No knowledge of any real combos and overuse of double-jab.

*Don't Whirling Fortress (Ground) enough as I see it used quite commonly as a GET OFF ME ability on the ground by actual players.

*5/10 times I'm going for an up-swipe, I end up doing that jumping-shell attack instead (On the ground, anyway).



There's a whole lot of things that could be a keyboard / config issue (I've a feeling a few controls may be overlapping) and the rest is down to me only knowing CPU.

If you want to laugh at how terrible I am, feel free to do so here, though bare in mind that it's futile bashing me in my current state - I'd understand if I was this bad and only playing people


Every game always takes me a while to get into, mostly because every CPU game starts with them ganging up on me, feel free to critique though it may be somewhat pointless:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CppdZNA213w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMJ2XNDfRxY

If you can't stomach a full match vs CPU I do like to occasionally make some random fun moment clips, like me failing Bowser Edge-cancels thanks to CPU grabbing it while I've already done the move, or just me sucking in general, some other stuff like colliding with a thrown Gordo and it not doing anything, or me trying out D3 for the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuhQqKAXQwU

I suppose even if I can't learn anything worthwhile, it can still be fun - Or is it? Do people who play other players primarily get any fun from CPU at all or is it a dead mode to them?

Either way, thanks for the replies and any further posts in advance.

When it comes to fighting games I always start off by training with the CPU on the hardest difficulty. Once I've mastered it I try to face as many real life opponents as I can to see how good I am and what I should do differently against a human. In other words I do not find the CPU useless as others have said. It serves it's purpose IMO.

Oh I'm sure it does but up to a certain point/limit.

It's not like the CPU takes into account matchups, or uses their best attacks and holds back on bad attacks etc etc

Unfortunately it's the same with most games - AI // CPU will always react by script. I've no idea if it shows in the above movies but I've tried to get better, even if it's just CPU. I've been watching WarriorKnight (Very entertaining Bowser), KingKong (Straight up Bowser), NinjaLink (Very entertaining) and various others, even one or two games from names listed on these Forums and I try to use that as a means of at least SEEING what they do versus other players, even if that can't be put to good practice against Bots.

I'll keep on trying but I suppose without players to play it's a lost cause but at least I find CPU matches fun... Well, why wouldn't I, it's all I know so far >.<

Actually, CPUs help me a lot when I try to improve my gameplay.
They can help you to improve your spacing, for example. Or find new combos (and not combos that worked because they airdodged).

However, it creates bad habits if you haven't got any experience in the game. If you have already a good experience of the game, then you realize that rolling is bad (most of the time), so even if it works against computers, you don't do it. Same thing goes for punishing their airdodges each time they're hit ; you should act like you don't know what they'll be doing and don't try unsafe things (that would work because they dodged, but it won't work against real players).

When you can't play offline, it's actually difficult not to have bad habits. Of course the best way to improve is offline. CPUs will help you to improve your level, but they can't help you to create your level. Wifi can actually help you, but it's the same thing than CPUs : you'll have bad habits if you don't realize that what you do is wrong and won't work offline. I think you should keep watching videos, and try to mimic the actions of your favorite player. Also, Spotdodge > Roll (but don't spam it ).

Well that was my point of view. I hope I helped you a bit ; good luck!

It did, but it also presents a specific problem

Most if not all Bowser players I watch actually avoid spot-dodging because Bowser seems to have the worst one (Slowest, I assume) so even if spot-dodging is better than rolls, as bowser I think SD's aren't very helpful, at least thats what I gather from every player avoiding using it.

I'm sure it's fine for avoiding projectiles like waddle-dee's and other stuff but for up-close I rarely ever see a top Bowser really use SD that often.

I just re-watched an older CPU match of mine and noticed just how much I used to spam roll-dodge but then compared to my movies in the previous post I actually didn't use it all that much at all so I guess I'm learning afterall.

If I was to claim I had a main it'd be Bowser hands down. Naturally people should always try to play everyone to get some experience of each character but with such a huge cast and no chance to play other people I wouldn't want to extend bad CPU-borne habits when trying to learn everyone, so I'll stick to Bowser and the occasional D3 - Heavyweight is my style anyways and I find Bowser just too much fun NOT to play him, even against CPU.

Yeah his spotdodge is quite slow, but it still helps to avoid getting grabbed (most Up Throws lead to a juggle, which is bad for Bowser). I think Bowser has many invincibility frames though, but your opponent will punish you after your spotdodge. Maybe consider doing immediatly an UpB after your spotdodge? It has invincibility frames during the startup. Also, I think you already know it, but UpB OoS is really really good with Bowser.

CPUs aren't good for much other than gaining control of your character.

^I totally agree.

Also Up-b OoS is a better option than spot-dodge for bowser, it has invincibility on start-up and hits all around him.
(If you don't know to do it you just do the regular inputs while in shield if you have tap jump on).

Thanks for further tips - I assume UpB refers to Whirling Fortress (As in the move you use when you try to reach the ledge when you've no double jump).

Yep, as said in one of my earlier posts, I realised quite a while ago that I just don't use it enough - The reason being that CPU doesn't seem to be able to handle it and spamming it felt cheap, but against players it's definately required as a defensive move.

I've no idea what OoS means, is that a term for an Option Select? I play StreetFighter IV as well (SRK Forums pointed me in this direction afterall) so that would be my assumption seeing as OS is the common term for Option Select and I assume Brawl has it just like most fighting games.

I have to press UP to jump, as opposed to actually pressing a designated JUMP button - I'm using a keyboard so having to have another button would be awkward, just to jump, and it feels natural that actually pressing up would do it.

I basically use Z, X, C, V for Attack, Smash, Shield and Grab (Hope thats the right terminology - Z for basic attacks, X for specials, C for Shields [C+Direction for dodges] and V to Throw) - Arrow Keys to move. I've no idea if it's normal but pressing throws during jumps or movements will also cause you to shield - This could be an overlapping issue or it could be completely normal, I've no idea - I'll have to review the controls again sometime to be certain.

So, if my understanding of the above is correct, I'd hold Shield (C) and press UP+X to perform this UpB OoS?

I'll give it a try ^^ Also, it's a bit depressing how combo's are not listed per character, so I'd have to hunt down combo lists and also practice those.

I'm aware of certain matchup specifics with Bowser, but only a few - Like how he can chaingrab (Ground) IvySaur and I've seen Dias' Bowser loop a Charizard into an unavoidable chain of Bowser Slams when the Charizard wasn't damaged enough to fly far enough away on impact to avoid them, heard he can also be chain grabbed as well. Certain things like that, mostly from browsing an old-tier list and seeing it in action - It's a bit ironic how Bowser is apparrently one of the few characters who has a good matchup versus the recently banned MetaKnight

If someone could maybe offer links to Bowsers Matchup Advice and/or a Combo list that'd be huge - Or if not I can skim the forum myself as I'm sure there here somewhere. I'm about to head to sleep so I'd be grateful if someone offers the info for me but you don't have to, I'm not trying to be lazy

Any/All further help with tips, or just posts about your opinion on CPU practice is all welcome and appreciated in advance. I'll check back in a couple of hours after a long-deserved sleep!

OoS = Out of Shield.
When you're shielding, you can jump to cancel your shield.
I assume your tap jump is ON, you just have to shield an attack, and then immediatly press Up + B.

Also, MK ***** him, even if it's not that bad for a low tier.

RopeDrink said:

It did, but it also presents a specific problem

Most if not all Bowser players I watch actually avoid spot-dodging because Bowser seems to have the worst one (Slowest, I assume) so even if spot-dodging is better than rolls, as bowser I think SD's aren't very helpful, at least thats what I gather from every player avoiding using it.

I'm sure it's fine for avoiding projectiles like waddle-dee's and other stuff but for up-close I rarely ever see a top Bowser really use SD that often.

I just re-watched an older CPU match of mine and noticed just how much I used to spam roll-dodge but then compared to my movies in the previous post I actually didn't use it all that much at all so I guess I'm learning afterall.

If I was to claim I had a main it'd be Bowser hands down. Naturally people should always try to play everyone to get some experience of each character but with such a huge cast and no chance to play other people I wouldn't want to extend bad CPU-borne habits when trying to learn everyone, so I'll stick to Bowser and the occasional D3 - Heavyweight is my style anyways and I find Bowser just too much fun NOT to play him, even against CPU.

Click to expand...

Yeah, in most situations where you could spotdodge, Fortress is a better option. It's invincible first 4 frames.

As for particular Bowser tips and videos, you should visit the Brawl Bowser boards. We have a video thread with current videos. You can also post your own videos for critique. The Bowsers in general are VERY helpful when it comes to critiquing.

Figures - I'll definately start using it more.

Thing is I have used it on occasion but it collided with some move or other and got cancelled out leaving both of us at neutral state - And because a CPU doesn't need time to notice this / react to it (ie. it'll instantly attack after this has happened) this left me at a disadvantage often enough. Another reason why CPU is bad to play against I guess.

Obviously it'd be so much different against players. Can't even create devious mindgames because a CPU just reacts to everything.

The first thing you should practice is Fortressing everything that hits your shield. Then you should learn what moments are best to Klaw OoS instead of Fortress OoS.

Hmmm, CPU wouldn't give much chance to practice that except maybe the heavyweights with slow attacks, at least you can react to that. I've not really played many different characters other than the ones that you eventually have to beat to unlock (I play CPU Brawls primarily, not even cleared subspace emmisary yet).

I should probably clear it before I continue practicing, least it forces you to play as most of the cast. Just a shame my favourite character isn't playable until the end.

Ok, taken it on board, started using it more - I always knew I never used it enough but as said, against CPU it felt a bit cheap because it can't really handle overuse of it - Hell you could use Fortress alone to grind on that mode, whatever it was, where you have to face 150 Bots (Can't remember the name of it) as it was an instant KO on them and they can't really punish it, or are scripted to react in a way that just makes them eat it.

Either way, as said, I know I'm only playing CPU but I'd like to think I'm getting better anyways.

Just had my first attempt at Pokemon Trainer (I know Bowser has a massive advantage in this match) and Lucario - Just watch - Even the CPU had a brainfart - God knows why it KO'd itself within the first 30seconds. Even managed a few chaingrabs to boot - Still, a lot to learn and have yet to actually play a living person I'm not all that great versus characters with projectiles and certainly not lightweights in general with Bowsers general slowness so it was a bit of a challenge anyways and good practice I think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qEAlItXki8

Judging by your videos, CPUs teach you how to be predictable.

I just came to say no.
Either way, what a CPU can teach you, a human player can teach it better.

Yes I'm playing predictable, mostly because there's not much need to vary how you come up off the ledge, or general tactics as you can see the bot casually ate the same ledge attack countless times, only shielded or punished it about twice. I also always Bowser Bomb the edge because CPU is scripted to always try a smash attack when you're approaching it from the void - Naturally this would have to change versus players.

I spam a lot of Slams, mostly because that move was what got me to love bowser, and one of the few aspects that made me want to play the game when I first started seeing matches on YouTube, odd I know, I'm weird like that, can be sold on the simplest of things. It's basically my favourite move in the whole game, just looks ridiculously painful and that old-school smash sound when you mash someone into the ground is just <3

And to Dyclone, nobody would argue that fighting other players is definately where the fun is at, nevermind the learning (Goes without saying) but the question is can playing CPU teach you anything at all.

I don't see why it couldn't be a decent place to practice tactics or moves etc but for someone like me who can only play CPU, it's a bit different to someone who HAS player experience but wants to test some new ideas.

RopeDrink said:

Yes I'm playing predictable, mostly because there's not much need to vary how you come up off the ledge, or general tactics as you can see the bot casually ate the same ledge attack countless times,

Click to expand...

The bot isn't a person. Getting into the habit of judging by how the bot plays will **** up the way you play the real MU.

I understand that - Point still stands - It's a CPU, the CPU pretty much ate 90% of the same thing. A player wouldn't stand on the immediate edge spamming the same attack, or eat the exact same thing over and over as they would adapt - CPU doesn't, so I was free to do the same thing knowing it was a 70/30 chance it would just simply work, because it's a CPU that doesn't adapt.

Difference is I know and understand that and would automatically approach it differently if I knew the opponent was a live player, don't think me foolish to believe what I learn in a crummy CPU match would ever be enough vs people who adapt

Thing is, you also can't play vs CPU like you would a player - They simply do not act the same, never hold back, scripted to react to X with Y - This is the problem. There's no mindgames, no holding back when you know you can, no going aggressive when you know you have to - They could be on 300% damage and stillr recklessly zerg you.

That's what you keep saying - the cpu is ********. The best ways to learn are with a good player over Wifi or a good player in real life. Your reaction time will improve, you'll be much better at mindgaming, your bad defensive habits are broken, you'll improve at DI ( the CPU is too damn unpredictable ), and you'll be a better player overall.

I know - And I'd love nothing more than to play real people... But I don't really fancy forking out for a Wii or GC specifically for that one game - Unless I change that mentality, I'll be stuck with nothing but an Emulator and a copy of said game. Unless they somehow work out a more stable method of multiplayer with it, or I find people who DO play on Dolphin, then I'm, sadly, stuck with CPU's.

While stuck I'm just looking for things to learn - I know CPU isn't going to be great at that but I'm sure there's some aspects that even a CPU match can be used to train, I just don't know them.

I feel like it was great for testing the waters with new characters in SSBB. Plus, I'm sure playing vs. CPU may have pissed a fair few Jiggly mains off.

no if anything you unlearn things from the CPU

Heh, well considering I've learned little to begin with (Going by reactions to my lolsome videos) I guess there's no great loss

Either way, thanks all for further input, I know it's not exactly the most interesting topic but feedback is always appreciated.

I think the CPU can be good for getting your basics down (think learning curve), and some combo/strat practice but that's about it.

Human players vary in skill/playstyle. But, it can at least help you get familiar with certain characters when it comes to seeing what they have/can do. Basically a training session with something that fights back.

As a newer person to Smash, it has helped me with timing, recovery considerations, etc. But, the CPU commonly seems to lack that "unpredictable" approach that you find with your friends or other human players.

Thats pretty much it - Hell I've only faced 1/5 of the cast... Infact I've not even unlocked half of them, trying to take it in small chunks. I started out with my favourites, obviously me as Bowser and using other Heavyweights to learn from as there's a bigger window for punishes and seemingly easier time to get into the game.

Been moving on and on just trying to improve my play in general and get a grip on the cast. I've seen videos but watching people play is never the same as playing, yourself.

I know I'm horrible at the game but I try to give myself some saving grace, even just a little. I watched a lot of Bowser players, tried to adopt at least some of the tricks into how I play.

I look at the above vid of mine (first real fight against Lucario & PTrainer) and inexperience aside, I can at least say it's milestones better than my first few attempts, even if I do resort to repeated tactics due to CPU inability to 'suprise' or mix it up.

I'll keep plodding away anyways and take from it what I can, as little as that may be.

RopeDrink said:

Thats pretty much it - Hell I've only faced 1/5 of the cast... Infact I've not even unlocked half of them, trying to take it in small chunks. I started out with my favourites, obviously me as Bowser and using other Heavyweights to learn from as there's a bigger window for punishes and seemingly easier time to get into the game.

Click to expand...

Ever since Melee came out I've found that newer players tend to gravitate towards using Bowser; I suppose it makes sense why they tend to choose Bowser as he seems like he'd be a pretty good character to use. Honestly, though, I feel like being a Bowser main has a fairly steep learning curve so unless you had some sort of attachment to Bowser before you started playing I would at least recommend testing the waters with DDD or even Donkey Kong, both heavyweights that are vastly superior.

Although good luck to you if you ever decide to get into competitive brawling with Bowser; I'd of course recommend finding ways to practice against human characters if you are going to do so, though.

I play DDD on the side - Personally I can't adapt well to him, I enjoy him but I simply can't grasp him as well as Bowser, though he's my second favourite of the lot and I'll be sure to practice him next.

I assure you the reason I've gravitated towards him is purely cosmetic, as well as always having favoured a) The Bad Guy and b) The Underdog so he's just a natural choice - I know well he's scraping the bottom of mid'ish tier, or top of the low tier, but I've seen so many videos of Bowsers played exceptionally well and he's handsdown the most fun to play as for me.

Good luck learning purely from the CPU for the moment. I think its possible, but it requires a high level of study and conscious control of one's self to fine tune yourself on your own.

All I can stress is looking at videos and trying to get a feeling for whats possible with the character.

Tbh what you need to do right now is find people who are mediocre at this game but know what they're doing and play them on wifi ASAP.

Again I wish I could, but I'm playing on a PC Emulator, so it's not like I've the luxury of regular multiplayer

Oh.

In that case get a Wii + the game (Y)