Pokémon Trainer

I don't think he's going to make it into Smash 4.
If he does, he'll probably have more modern Pokemon.

NO STAMINA. GET RID OF IT. caps

Needs ability to adjust size of team like CvS2 and Skullgirls.

If he makes it, I support no stamina and no forced switching.

I say keep him exactly how is and low key he & Mewtwo could replace Purin.

Purin my jiggly I hate it had to be her

Nah, the stamina and forced switching really cripple him.

The stamina needs to go at the least.

I feel he's going to get cut as well, but I'm not going to bet on it

BSP said:

Nah, the stamina and forced switching really cripple him.

The stamina needs to go at the least.

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Only in the sense that you are vulnerable when you switch, which could be modified. I think it'd be lame for people to just be running around as only Charizard for example and never using the other two. Then Pokemon Trainer just becomes an excuse to have three characters for the price of one.

Yeah, there really is no point to the trainer unless they can find the right balance to have to switch between all 3 of the pokemon.

Stamina also causes your attacks lose damage and knockback when the PKMN is tired.

I see where you're coming from...if they made PKMN change less vulnerable, it'd work.

All the PKMN need to be good too for the team thing to work.

PT was an amazing idea with downright abysmal execution. Seriously, incredibly disappointing character.

I still say he's probably gonna make it back, but for gods sake, get rid of the Stamina BS and allow switching to make yourself less blatantly open. That's all I require at the very least.

BSP said:

Stamina also causes your attacks lose damage and knockback when the PKMN is tired.

I see where you're coming from...if they made PKMN change less vulnerable, it'd work.

All the PKMN need to be good too for the team thing to work.

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All the Pokemon are good

Shortiecanbrawl said:

I would honestly prefer to cut PT over Lucario and Jigglypuff. I think his execution in Brawl was awful, and the idea at its core was incredibly flawed.

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How was it awful?

tirkaro said:

PT was an amazing idea with downright abysmal execution. Seriously, incredibly disappointing character.

I still say he's probably gonna make it back, but for gods sake, get rid of the Stamina BS and allow switching to make yourself less blatantly open. That's all I require at the very least.

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Was actually pleasently surprised with this character. I was pretty against pkmn trainer when he was revealed on the dojo and it wasn't till two years after Brawl was released that I began to main him.

The only thing truly awful about Pkmn Trainer is how open you are when you change Pokemon. Its not a big deal for Zelda/Shiek because (while they are the same person) they are different characters so transforming isn't necessary (same for Samus/ZSS). But transforming is necessary for Pkmn Trainer or else he just becomes an excuse to have 3 characters for the price of one. The uniqueness that Pkmn Trainer has is the ability but also the need to use three different fighters. Take away stamina and Pokemon Trainer is useless, there would just be a bunch of Charizards running around.

In order to keep the team spirit of the character, stamina should stay but transforming vulnerability should be drastically reduced (since it is necessary).

Sunnysunny said:

Whats wrong with the character? The stamina mechanic completely destroys the character competitively.

The idea of PT is too be able to take on any opponent as a team. You have a big bruiser like charizard, a nimble character like squirtle, and an inbetween like ivysaur, right? The stamina system just totally throws that out the window. Lets say you start with a pokemon that has a good MU against your opponent. There is absolutely nothing stopping them from abusing the stamina system and running away to the point wear the current pokemon is so tuckered out its near useless. You are either forced to switch out and eat whatever attack the opponent has coming or stick it out with your current weakened pokemon.

It also doesn't help that the whole group dynamic is pretty bad considering squirtle is almost always a superior choice to the other 2. Charizards ok, but ivysaur was done really horribly. He's more of a nuisance then anything.

Isn't forced switching upon death enough? Unless you 3 stock your opponent everytime your gonna have to switch. Meaning you have to cycle threw all your pokemon atleast once.

Remove the stamina system, let each pokemon thrive at something, and make sure they're equally balanced. Sounds like a hard task, but thats the only way this character could be balanced while still keeping the team theme.

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I understand now. I guess the purist in me was thinking "if I can win with stamina then its fine" but you explained it well and it would only benefit me as a Pkmn Trainer main.

How was Ivysaur done poorly? Aside from recovery.

Remove the stamina and I'm happy.

Sunnysunny said:

Oh wow~ Thats really understanding of ya~ First part to learning your main is excepting there weaknesses~

I don't main PT or use him competitively but heres what I know.

Ivysaur is a good character in theory but is hampered by her mobility, recovery, and weight/size/fallspeed combination.

Her moves are downright amazing! She has good killpower, pretty dang good range, and amazing damage wracking potential. So on paper, she's godlike. But mobility plays a big part in this game, and ivysaur has neither good air or ground mobility making it easier for opponents to get in on her, and harder for her to approach. Razor leaf is too slow and clunky to outcamp or force an approach for the most part. Her shape/size/weight combination is pretty bad too. It makes her very easy to chaingrab and combo like a heavy weight, but without the weight of a heavy weight.

And of course, yea her recovery pretty bad.

She'd be pretty decent if she just got that lil boost in mobility.

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Foolish pride is not for me. And yea I see what you are saying. Giving Razor Leaf more speed and slightly more knock back would be great for distancing as well.

Sidebar: what do you think of making a thread for the less likely Pokemon reps? Such as Plusle & Minun, Genosect, May, Meowth, etc. I ask because I am new here and I feel that I don't have the authority to do such a thing.

Ivysaur... female?

Woah.

Either have something offset the stamina or get rid of it.

Giving the Pokemon a proper D-Special and moving switching to the taunt button would also be nice.

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Giving the Pokemon a proper D-Special and moving switching to the taunt button would also be nice.

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I'd like to see a system where each Pokemon is tied to a specific stock and racks up percentage separately, almost like in a tag team fighter. Obviously some things would have to be worked out with more than three stocks/time battles.

I'd also like for Stamina to go away. Other than that, I'm perfectly happy with Pokemon Trainer as he is.

He was by far my favorite inclusion (excluding Sonic) in Brawl. So I hope he stays for good!

JordantheGiant said:

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Can't tell if you like the idea or if you're shaking your head in shame...

shinhed-echi said:

He was by far my favorite inclusion (excluding Sonic) in Brawl. So I hope he stays for good!

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He was definitely the most unexpected character to get in Brawl along side Snake and ROB. It really makes sense to the MAIN CHARACTER of the Pokemon series playable, especially when we get not 1, but 3 extra playable Pokemon.

Back in Pre-Brawl, all I cared about was the Pokemon newcomers, didn't even care who. Definitely a big surprise when Red was revealed.

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Can't tell if you like the idea or if you're shaking your head in shame...

He was definitely the most unexpected character to get in Brawl along side Snake and ROB. It really makes sense to the MAIN CHARACTER of the Pokemon series playable, especially when we get not 1, but 3 extra playable Pokemon.

Back in Pre-Brawl, all I cared about was the Pokemon newcomers, didn't even care who. Definitely a big surprise when Red was revealed.

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Hopefully this will clear things up

And I share the surprised/happy sentiment that you have about Pokemon Trainer's exclusion, although at first I didn't like him because I too cared the most about Pokemon newcomers and Pokemon Trainer was not one of the ones I considered. Took me two years of playing the game before I realized that he is one of the more enjoyable characters.

Stamina and forced switching are fine in theory, but are massively hampered by how easy they are to exploit with the defensive mechanics in Brawl. All three Pokémon have large weaknesses to similar character types, so the idea of switching for counterpicking on the fly does not play out in practice.

Ivysaur needs a much more threatening ground game (strong moves don't mean anything if you can't keep most characters out effectively or approach them well), and Charizard shouldn't be so slow and awkward in the air.

PT is an excellent concept. With some tweaking, he could an awesome, balanced, totally viable character in the new game.

^^^ That is a great post on the matter on how the tbrawl:'s Pokémon are too similar in strengths and weaknesses, and what having the tbrawl: can do add to smash my smash brothahs.

I think we can all agree the stamina needs to go. It would be much easier to balance the tbrawl: without it. From there, each Pokémon needs more strength. All of them alone would be quite underpowered. In the future I would love to see all kinds of tbrawl: players. tbrawl: players who use just 1 or 2 Pokémon (as specialists), and tbrawl: players who use all 3!

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Giving the Pokemon a proper D-Special and moving switching to the taunt button would also be nice.

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Maybe make the switch operate as button commands when they die. Like, for example, once you get KO'd, up on the control pad is :squirtlebrawl:, left on the control pad is :ivysaurbrawl:, and right on the control pad is harizardbrawl:. As for when you aren't KO'd, you could change between them with the same commands, or maybe with the select button.

Edit: I'm surprised nobody mentioned the concept of giving the tbrawl: new Pokémon!

Stamina is fine. Switching can be fine as a necessary tactic. The trouble is that it shouldn't be so easy to exploit, and matchups should be more balanced than "I want to use solo Squirtle for 90% of matchups because he's the least limited."

People don't want the Pokémon to switch because they make a good trifecta, and they're much more iconic than any of the other trios.

TheReflexWonder said:

People don't want the Pokémon to switch because they make a good trifecta, and they're much more iconic than any of the other trios.

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Charizard alone is enough reason not to make Red change. lol

There is also some evidence that Sakurai had planned for a PT (most likely Gold) for Melee, as well as Ash, Squirtle, Bulbasaur who all ranked high on the Melee poll. Sakurai even said that Charizard would make for an interesting character back on the Melee dojo.


@Johnknight: Don't forget that if you press the switch button for the Pokemon that is already out, they do a taunt.

The problem with stamina is it makes it harder to balance. Literally if 2 of the Pokémon are terrible, the other Pokémon is not as valuable. Even if 1 of the Pokémon are terrible, with the current team-switching mechanic, that makes the team a lot weaker, especially given how long it takes to switch between Pokémon.

It also hampers on the ability of players who wish to just rely on 1 or 2 Pokémon, which leaves less ways for people to play the tbrawl:

By the way, the time needed to switch Pokémon should be at least halved. It takes way too long in Brawl. Literally, I could read a book about the complex social issues of Libya in the 1980's, watch half a season of Lost, figure out what the word "cryptanalyst" means (its' a job where a mathematician figures out how to decode secret systems), and still manage to Warlock Punch the person who is changing Pokémon.

Personally, I think having Squirtle and Ivysaur as part of Pokemon Trainer's team is kind of...extremely underwhelming. When I think of Red, I think of him as one of Nintendo's coolest video game characters. Then I see him in Brawl and all I can think of is: wow, this character is really messed up. This is going to be a little rant about how laughable Pokemon Trainer is...

1.) Charizard has a bad recovery. This is just unforgivable. You're telling me that a flying type Pokemon can't make it back to the stage? Haha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Like, how dumb can you get? It's not even just that he's easily gimpable. It goes a short distance. Why?

2.) Ivysaur's powder attacks have no special effects. Grass types are known for status ailments, but I guess that would just be too difficult. It's not like status effects like sleep, stun, and poison are already in the game or anything!

3.) Squirtle is fast.

4.) Ivysaur can only use up b once before falling.

5.) Stamina is stupid. Yeah, this gives us a pretty good reason to switch. Switch characters, that is.

6.) The super effective system. I guess it would be pretty cool if it was done right, and the attempt is cute, but it wasn't done right. Basically all it does is say **** Ivysaur. It should be increased damage, not knockback. Because of the increased knockback, it can either work well or not at all. With not at all being the character that takes increased knockback only finds it easier to DI certain moves because the knockback is not enough to kill them...ever. I'm looking at you, flame thrower, fire breath, fireballs, PK Fire, ect. I mean, it's fine if Ivysaur got the bad side of the super effective system, but Ivysaur already sucks horribly.

7.) Pokemon Trainer would be so much cooler if he actually had fully evolved Pokemon. Maybe everyone is just so used to seeing Squirtle and Ivysaur that they don't question it, but imagine if you saw Red show up on the Smash Dojo with Venusaur, Blastoise, and Charizard behind him. Maybe even Espeon and Snorlax. I don't know about you guys, but I would **** bricks.

Three other things I wanted to talk about: First of all, the taunting to change Pokemon is a baller idea. I love it. Second, I don't understand why people think having a character that switches between three Pokemon with good weight would be bad. Other than their weight, they would be outrageously different. Remember that heavy does not mean slow.

The last thing is pretty out there, but I think it would add a lot of diversity and depth to the character as well as provide a reason to switch more often. What if Blastoise's new down b was Rain Dance, which would increase the power of water type moves and change the background accordingly (to my knowlege, every stage is outside or mostly outside.) Then Venusaur's would be Sunny Day, which would speed up its Solar Beam as well as increase the strength of fire moves. It sounds pretty crazy, but I think it would be awesome.

Three other things I wanted to talk about: First of all, the taunting to change Pokemon is a baller idea. I love it. Second, I don't understand why people think having a character that switches between three Pokemon with good weight would be bad. Other than their weight, they would be outrageously different. Remember that heavy does not mean slow.

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But it mean bulk. It's harder too Knock a heavyweight off due to their massive bulk. And they majority cannot jump high and well. Venusaur's anonymity would be TERRIBLE for Super Smash Bros.

Though if it were me, I would axe them all(except for Number Six) in favor on the third generation traners with a Treecko/Combusken/Swampert group.

all this hate on the stamina mechanic o.o

the stamina mechanic actually does its job really well. the problems with PT (apart from the obvious imbalance between the three pokemon) are that the fact that fatigue increases just with time hurt PT far more than i think the developers intended, with how defensively natured the game turned out to be. then, forced switching is completely redundant.

if i were to redesign the character from a switching perspective, i would remove the increase of fatigue with time. make each move increase fatigue twice as fast if needed, but remove the time dependency. then, remove forced switching on death, and let stamina be the sole motivator. i would let fatigue drop power down to as low as 30% too (much lower than the current 70%) to compensate for the lost switching motivation.

each pokemon would ideally have a high base low growth knockback move as well that's not unreasonable to land, to allow for safer switching when the opponent is at 0%.

asia_catdog_blue said:

But it mean bulk. It's harder too Knock a heavyweight off due to their massive bulk. And they majority cannot jump high and well. Venusaur's anonymity would be TERRIBLE for Super Smash Bros.

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Huh? Snake is difficult to KO because of his weight. DK can jump high and has high aerial mobility. Also, Venusaur is known very well. Better than Ivysaur. Plus, even if he wasn't well known, there are still characters that were put into Smash without being extremely popular. For example, Captain Falcon, Marth, Ike, Roy, Ness, and Lucas.

Changes I'd like to see on Pokemon Trainer.


Squirtle: Same, he was perfectly alright.

Ivysaur:
-Melee tether (because edge-hoggers suck) to be able to latch to any wall (Z-button)
-Powder effects (Lip's stick effect might suffice)

Charizard:
-FIVE JUMPS, him having 3 jumps is inconceivable.
-Faster glide.
-Easier cancelling from glide to UP+B

Trainer:
-To be able to recall Pokemon out of the air.
-Switch pokemon FASTER.
That's just it. I really love Pokemon Trainer, but Charizard and Ivy's limitations are sometimes too hard to overcome.

What's needed for both PKM Trainer and Zelda is for the Swap/Transform to be at Melee's speed than Brawl's load time malarky.

Guybrush20X6 said:

What's needed for both PKM Trainer and Zelda is for the Swap/Transform to be at Melee's speed than Brawl's load time malarky.

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Can't really blame Brawl for that, as it's mostly due to software limitation as most Wii games in general have longer loading times than the Gamecube. Still it's something that can always be improved on and will most likely always be a problem.


So I might as well ask, what moves does everyone think would be good as a D-Special if switching is moved to the taunt buttons?

They need to keep him (3rd fav character) but they need to change his name to what it actually is, "Red".