ROM 5 - Mew2King vs Unknown522

Mew2King · Nov 19, 2012

There was NOTHING intentional. I thought it was the rule since not only has that been what it's always been, but he went to FoD twice so why couldn't I go to FD twice?. I found out later by talking to Cactuar that that wasn't the case, since I won on FoD but he lost on FD. There was NO trickery, it was a misunderstanding, that i found out afterwords. If that will be blamed on me then I am sorry for that mistake but it was NOT intentional AT ALL. I'm not like that. Many of you people gossiping about this don't know what you're talking about.

I was also originally supposed to be on Eggm's side of the bracket to meet him in winners semis. I would fight Eggm in WS, then Unknown and Kirbykaze would fight on the other side of WS, then winner of me-and-eggm, and winner of KK-and-unknown, would fight in winners finals. alukard asked me if I was okay with them switching the bracket, where I would fight unknown (a much bigger tourney threat for me since i have always beaten eggm) and kirbykaze would fight eggm (since me and eggm fight often and unknown and kirbykaze fight often), and I said it was okay because I didn't want to be the "bad guy" and just take the easier, selfish route out, where I just beat eggm then fight kk or unknown in WF. I'm too nice and im obviously an idiot for that. I also allowed hax to have our set be a 3/5 when he asked me during our losers bracket set after I won the first two games 2-0 because he asked me and really wanted to so i allowed it (he asked me after i won first two games but i said it's fine i don't care). NONE of this helps me. In fact, both of them greatly disadvantage me, but I did it anyway because I just try to be nice. There was NOTHING bad that i intentionally did, but I will say that I was very mentally ****ed in the head after I had to redo game 5. My mindset completely screwed me and i was going to forfeit to hax anyway cuz I was too depressed to want to play anymore but hax convinced me to play it out anyway cuz he both wanted to fight me and also said he wanted me to win the tourney so i told him i would try even though i didn't want to play anymore at that point.

tl;dr - I'm too nice and i get ****ed over for it and you're accusing me of malicious intent when i had ZERO, ABSOLUTELY NONE. I actually got screwed myself by it but there was nothing i could do.

edit - as far as splitting goes, i always split but i didn't know it was against the rules. Blame me for this. This was my fault. I didn't know, cuz I'm stupid and didn't read the rules. I assumed it was okay cuz it usually is but i will take full blame for this, since i asked KK and unknown to split (kk said no, unknown said yes). Even if i was in winners finals, i would have agreed to split cuz im too nice and i do not like saying no to people. Jman can back me up on this since ive done that for him many many times before. If needed I will stop this and i apologize for that part since that's entirely on me.

edit 2 - as far as unknown using sheik and marth vs me - I would have highly preferred him to go fox/falco instead, but i didn't say anything cuz i didn't care either way since that was his decision. I just wanted to play the sets and try to win the tournament, despite splitting with unknown before our 6 matches GF matches were played out.

HyugaRicdeau · Nov 19, 2012

Juggleguy said:
3. The players were wrongly forced to replay Game 5. Yes, Standard DSR was stated as the rule in effect in the ROM 5 Smashboards thread. Yes, Mew2King and Unknown played out Game 5 on a stage that shouldn't have been allowed under the stated rules, no matter how bad those rules were. With that said, as a TO, you should NOT ask players to replay a game whose outcome has already been decided. As a player, if you fail to get TO clarification on the rules and you go ahead to play out the match, then you live with the result. Having to replay a match messes with the mindset of both players and is especially unfair to the player who won the original match, EVEN IF if that match was played under a slightly different take on the rules. The original Genesis is a great example of a tourney that did this SUCCESSFULLY with their decision to uphold the Mew2King vs Armada outcome since both players had gone ahead and played out their set under one set of assumptions. ROM 5 failed at this.ules beforehand. And that could have been avoided if the rules were properly advertised to begin with. And that could have been avoided if the rules had followed the precedent set by the first nine major Melee tournaments of 2012.

Funny story about this. After we made this decision, Boback got a whole bunch of hate texts on his phone from disgruntled EC players.

.Ðempt · Nov 19, 2012

KoRoBeNiKi said:
yeah, cursing at people for being babies helps so much.
All sarcasm aside. As the person above said, this was a national tournament with 3000 viewers.

This isn't some local where people can mess around and no one cares since everyone knows everyone.

Smash potentially could come to EVO. Do you honestly think that splitting would be "ok" then? Look what happened in MLG. We became the laughing stock after getting a chance because of a few morons who didn't understand the fact that they could not collude and influence the bracket. It was clearly defined as it should be at nationals.

I don't care what people do with their money past a tournament. Play an actual set or at least fake a good set and then people will not complain nearly as much.

I didn't mind KirbyKaze's play. The loser's finals was actually fine as KirbyKaze was also using a character that he uses well and he used Sheik. If he split, well ok. I don't give a crap as the set was actually fine.

In Grand Finals there were 6 games played out of a possible 10, the minimum for a double 3/5 set. In none of the matches did either play show that they cared (outside of maybe Mew2King in some of 'em. No courtesy fox play. No close matches and most of them were laughable which is terrible on the main stage, especially for people who were in some ways hyped.

As far as you are concerned, I'm allowed to say whatever I damn well please. But this **** pisses me off when I see "moral justifications" to such things that you have no foundation to argue.

How about you ask me what I thought of splitting as opposed to seeing a hype result for an extremely anticipated tourney? Ever consider that? Here, I'll answer it for you: I would MUCH rather see a REAL GF instead of what happened? Am I mad? Not at all. A little disappointed, but not nearly to the extent of what everyone is making this out to be.

I hate repeating myself so I'll say this one last time. They should have anticipated the possibility of a split and enforced it. By not doing so, the poor TOing results in the players' decision, causing plenty of butthurt. Blame Alukard, not the players.

@ Rob: I just think it's fairly obvious what needs to be done, and who's at fault here. That's why that branch of discussion has ceased.

Metal Reeper · Nov 19, 2012

There should be a rule such as if you are found splitting at a national/actual tournament you will be banned from the next national.

They should all be banned from Apex and if not then we should boycott or something. Something has to change here. This stuff has been going on long enough and our community will never grow or be taken seriously until this is stopped.

Twinkles · Nov 19, 2012

CanISmash said:
TO OP and anyone blaming alukard is not too bright. the tourney rules were up well in advanced.

it's like crying that you want to break a 2 year cell phone contract that you signed are you ****ing kidding me.

who cares anyway the community is already dying, chances of sparking interest in new folks get smaller and smaller with pot splits and sandbagging like we saw tonight.

i've never watched a marvel grand finals where players split publically or privately and didn't play their hardest not for the cash but for the crown. to simply be better. HBOX for president in 2013. i hope you b-air your way through everyone

don't you think he could have handled it better? even if it was against rules, unknown agreed to the game on fd, so why not just let the games stand if both players agreed to it?

and don't say **** like that, we've had great turnout at the last couple of tournaments and there are newer players getting interested in this game (i should know, i'm one of them). it sucks that this happened but for the love of god, this doesn't mean the community is just going to keel over and die.

Bob Money · Nov 19, 2012

wrong language

Anomic_Punk · Nov 19, 2012

As it should be in every tournament ruleset ever:

ALL final decisions are at the discretion of the TO.

Whether Alucard interpreted DSR or mDSR correctly or incorrectly is irrelevant.
The final decision was in HIS hands. The smash community can decide to continue to support his events or not, depending on what they think of his decision.
Other than that, Gentleman's Clause.
#dealwithit

bertbusdriver · Nov 19, 2012

Mew2King said:
There was NOTHING intentional. I thought it was the rule since not only has that been what it's always been, but he went to FoD twice so why couldn't I go to FD twice?. I found out later by talking to Cactuar that that wasn't the case, since I won on FoD but he lost on FD. There was NO trickery, it was a misunderstanding, that i found out afterwords. If that will be blamed on me then I am sorry for that mistake but it was NOT intentional AT ALL. I'm not like that. Many of you people gossiping about this don't know what you're talking about.

Fair enough. I tried to make my post sound not too accusatory, since not all the facts are out yet.

splitting at a big tourney still disappoints me though

.Ðempt · Nov 19, 2012

Mew2King said:
There was NOTHING intentional. I thought it was the rule since not only has that been what it's always been, but he went to FoD twice so why couldn't I go to FD twice?. I found out later by talking to Cactuar that that wasn't the case, since I won on FoD but he lost on FD. There was NO trickery, it was a misunderstanding, that i found out afterwords. If that will be blamed on me then I am sorry for that mistake but it was NOT intentional AT ALL. I'm not like that. Many of you people gossiping about this don't know what you're talking about.

I was also originally supposed to be on Eggm's side of the bracket to meet him in winners semis. I would fight Eggm in WS, then Unknown and Kirbykaze would fight on the other side of WS, then winner of me-and-eggm, and winner of KK-and-unknown, would fight in winners finals. alukard asked me if I was okay with them switching the bracket, where I would fight unknown (a much bigger tourney threat for me since i have always beaten eggm) and kirbykaze would fight eggm (since me and eggm fight often and unknown and kirbykaze fight often), and I said it was okay because I didn't want to be the "bad guy" and just take the easier, selfish route out, where I just beat eggm then fight kk or unknown in WF. I'm too nice and im obviously an idiot for that. I also allowed hax to have our set be a 3/5 when he asked me during our losers bracket set after I won the first two games 2-0 because he asked me and really wanted to so i allowed it (he asked me after i won first two games but i said it's fine i don't care). NONE of this helps me. In fact, both of them greatly disadvantage me, but I did it anyway because I just try to be nice. There was NOTHING bad that i intentionally did, but I will say that I was very mentally ****ed in the head after I had to redo game 5. My mindset completely screwed me and i was going to forfeit to hax anyway cuz I was too depressed to want to play anymore but hax convinced me to play it out anyway cuz he both wanted to fight me and also said he wanted me to win the tourney so i told him i would try even though i didn't want to play anymore at that point.

tl;dr - I'm too nice and i get ****ed over for it and you're accusing me of malicious intent when i had ZERO, ABSOLUTELY NONE. I actually got screwed myself by it but there was nothing i could do.

You did nothing wrong. Shush.

HyugaRicdeau · Nov 19, 2012

.Ðempt said:
@ Hyuga & Vinyl: No, they didn't need to play a "serious set". Yes, it was 100% allowed. Maybe by both your morals, it wasn't. Give me an MBR rule forbidding splitting, and I will give you a ****. Because if you want to ***** about something like that, then you have the right to get mad at Alukard or the community for not specifying such, but don't get mad at the players just because it didn't turn out the way you wanted it to. Welcome to competitive ****ing gaming.

If it's allowed at the tournament, then sure, that is their right. However the TO always has the final say in any situation where the rules are absent or unclear, and I don't think it's much of a stretch to include something like this as being up to the TO. Apparently, not everyone agrees with me, so while it is disappointing that this rule needs to be explicitly spelled out, but I guess that's what it has come to, and I'd suggest that TOs address it in their rulesets.

I argue that TOs have a responsibility to the community to implement policies designed to prevent bull**** finals. As I said, finals involve more than the people playing in them, and rules should reflect the interests of everyone involved. If you don't want to play out the whole thing, get out of my tournament. If you want to split, you're perfectly entitled to do that AFTER finals is played out in a way that respects the people that put it together and everyone else that paid money to play.

EDIT: And I for one completely believe M2K when he says he didn't know the rules =P

Anomic_Punk · Nov 19, 2012

HyugaRicdeau said:
If it's allowed at the tournament, then sure, that is their right. However the TO always has the final say in any situation where the rules are absent or unclear, and I don't think it's much of a stretch to include something like this as being up to the TO. Apparently, not everyone agrees with me, so while it is disappointing that this rule needs to be explicitly spelled out, but I guess that's what it has come to, and I'd suggest that TOs address it in their rulesets.

I argue that TOs have a responsibility to the community to implement policies designed to prevent bull**** finals. As I said, finals involve more than the people playing in them, and rules should reflect the interests of everyone involved. If you don't want to play out the whole thing, get out of my tournament. If you want to split, you're perfectly entitled to do that AFTER finals is played out in a way that respects the people that put it together and everyone else that paid money to play.

Where's my "like" button for this?

prog · Nov 19, 2012

So, I'm going to go ahead and get this off my chest.

I always say that I go to these tournaments to visit family. And in a sense, these are family reunions, we laugh, joke around, see each other for the first time in months, sometimes years. At the same time, you have to air some things out.

There was a recent viral move to have Melee go to Evo, and a lot of you voted. I was one of the few that didn't vote for SSBM, for a couple of reasons. For those of you unfamiliar with Evo, they like standardization. Sony sponsors the event, same hardware on the same system version, same patch, with Asus monitors, etc. CRT televisions are diffficult to track down nowadays, let alone enough to run a tournament of the size of an EVO with the same model. We still have different majors using different rule and stage sets. We argue of PAL vs NTSC 1.0 vs 1.1 vs 1.2. We are unorganized as a community when we have 3 different versions of a game possibly being played and no standard set. Logistically, it'd be nigh impossible to have 1.0 as a standard, copies of that are rare.

As for what happened tonight, it was callous. The Smash community in the eyes of other communities is a joke, and tonight didn't help our standings. I'm not sure how many of you dabble in other fighters, but their mecca is shoryuken.com. In my time as a member there (a few years), I've seen Smash on the front page for one of two things:
1. A side event at a tournament.
2. A red card being given.

So we have Smash being aligned with negativity or a side project. Tonight cemented these things. Any TO worth their salt that saw tonight would laugh off this community. Rules arguments. The constant warmups, this isn't Marvel but we need 3 minute button checks? And finally, the splitting.

Splitting is touchy. When you see Justin Wong and Ricky Ortiz in Grand Finals, they play each other at 100%, even if they both now they're going home with the same amount of the purse from the event. Why? Because it shows their pride as players and pride in their craft. The splitting tonight, with secondaries being played, etc. was disappointing to say the least.

And that's where my main issue with the community lies. We have a lush forest in front of us that we are capable of walking through, but we're stuck staring at the same damn two trees. This game is over a decade old...and we still don't have an agreement, we still don't have a standard. That's step one, that eliminates a lot of the rules issues, questions about game version, so on and so forth.

Who do I feel bad for tonight? Well, the community as a whole, but especially the gents at VGBC and Clash Tournaments. A smash event was front page on twitch.tv, which is still a huge deal. And in front of these viewers, first timers and long timers, the community showed that eh...left to our own devices, we're ok with not being as competitive as we can be at a tournament of such prestige as a RoM. GIMR said his thoughts on stream, but yeah.

Now, to Clash Tournaments, when you sponsor a player, you expect them to give your all. You're building a brand around players. They might wear your logo, you might be paying for their flight or entry fee. At the same, as a community, we have certain players that represent our brand. Whether they are TOs, commentators, streamers or players of any caliber, they represent our communities in various degrees. We build our brand around these players as well. I still hear people who know nothing about the game talk about True Life, or Survivor. Unfortunately, tonight, our brand, a party game with fighting elements turned competitive, was represented at the end by a couple of players who weren't giving their all. That's why I feel for Eggm and Hax who played their hearts out, as well as every other entrant. Take pride in your craft and your ability.

I really had a lot more to say, but I'm tired, and very disappointed. I might continue this at some point, but for now, this is all. However, consider this an opening salvo, my personal shots being fired to everyone in this community. We represent this brand, what can be done to push it forward? Tonight, in front of 3000+ viewers, possible sponsors, new blood, old blood, we might have taken a few steps back.

TOs, lets settle on one set of rules/stages/bracket, and maybe attempt to have a preferred version of the game.

Commentators, we're pretty good, but we can all hone our blades more. It's not the old days of just talking to Youtube for people who are part of the community, its also gaining the interest of the random wanderer on stream and explaining facets of a 10 year old game that they might not know exist, while keeping the attention of a tournament player who is at home with mono.

Players, if you're not playing with fire and with the goal of wanting to be the best, you're probably playing for the wrong reason. Splitting happens, and its fine when it is appropriate. Play it out, give your all, there's no reason not to. Sure, only 2 of you are playing, but there is a crowd behind you, youtube footage waiting, and a stream of people who are possibly getting interested in this archaic game because of you.

Sponsors, don't take tonight to heart. It does happen, but it isn't an epidemic. If you're looking to sponsor a player, look at their character as well as their placings, because they are the ones representing you as well.

[i'm tired]

rjgbadger · Nov 19, 2012

mew2king keep playing melee

you go to the tournament to win

youre mew2king

bertbusdriver · Nov 19, 2012

Mew2King said:
edit - as far as splitting goes, i always split but i didn't know it was against the rules. Blame me for this. This was my fault. I didn't know, cuz I'm stupid and didn't read the rules. I assumed it was okay cuz it usually is but i will take full blame for this, since i asked KK and unknown to split (kk said no, unknown said yes). Even if i was in winners finals, i would have agreed to split cuz im too nice and i do not like saying no to people. Jman can back me up on this since ive done that for him many many times before. If needed I will stop this and i apologize for that part since that's entirely on me.

MLG dropped brawl for a reason dude...

Mew2King · Nov 19, 2012

Okay I will comment on MLG cuz I know the truth - MLG used me as a scapegoat because they were dropping brawl anyway (because Nintendo wouldn't give them the legal rights to stream the game which is where their revenue profit comes from), so that part I refuse to take blame for. I will take the full blame on splitting here, since i am the person that asked for it since i always do that (although i would have anyway cuz i don't like saying no to people even if i was the one waiting in GF for something else), but i will not accept the blame for mlg since i know the true intentions there

also adhd still never gave me a penny yet. I've been asking him for the past 2 years, including last week, but he never responds once i bring that up. So i basically got double-screwed during mlg, for being banned for no reason but as an excuse to make mlg look more legit in dropping their game when i didn't even get anything out of it. The only reason i did that anyway is because i was too depressed from after losing to rich brown that i didn't want to play anymore, so i told adhd id just let him win cuz i didn't want to play anymore (I have really bad emotional problems that i need to fix but am unable to) so that's what i did (despite still not even getting paid for that anyway so i guess i was lied to).

prog said:
Players, if you're not playing with fire and with the goal of wanting to be the best, you're probably playing for the wrong reason. Splitting happens, and its fine when it is appropriate. Play it out, give your all, there's no reason not to. Sure, only 2 of you are playing, but there is a crowd behind you, youtube footage waiting, and a stream of people who are possibly getting interested in this archaic game because of you.
[i'm tired]

I want to comment on this part because I think you do not understand something - I play for 3 reasons.
1- I like smash
2- I'm already good at it, so I can make money from it (which i don't spend on anything except living necessities, such as food and such)
3- I do play to be the best. I still try when I split. I didn't want him to go sheik/marth, but i didn't care either way so i didn't say anything but i suppose i should have.

so while it is true that i will take the full blame for splitting w/ unknown since i suggested it, i want to say that your assumptions on the other aspects are completely wrong entirely (at least relating to me).

.Ðempt · Nov 19, 2012

HyugaRicdeau said:
If it's allowed at the tournament, then sure, that is their right. However the TO always has the final say in any situation where the rules are absent or unclear, and I don't think it's much of a stretch to include something like this as being up to the TO. Apparently, not everyone agrees with me, so while it is disappointing that this rule needs to be explicitly spelled out, but I guess that's what it has come to, and I'd suggest that TOs address it in their rulesets.

I argue that TOs have a responsibility to the community to implement policies designed to prevent bull**** finals. As I said, finals involve more than the people playing in them, and rules should reflect the interests of everyone involved. If you don't want to play out the whole thing, get out of my tournament. If you want to split, you're perfectly entitled to do that AFTER finals is played out in a way that respects the people that put it together and everyone else that paid money to play.

EDIT: And I for one completely believe M2K when he says he didn't know the rules =P

Oh believe me, I understand completely. I don't like splitting but I've gotten used to it as it's just part of the game, and when I run a tourney eventually, I would have the same mindset such as yourself. But unfortunately, yes, it has gotten to the point where it needs to be specified. But it's a learning experience. So we take it for what it is, and move on.

Mahie · Nov 19, 2012

Mew2King said:
Okay I will comment on MLG cuz I know the truth - MLG used me as a scapegoat because they were dropping brawl anyway (because Nintendo wouldn't give them the legal rights to stream the game which is where their revenue profit comes from), so that part I refuse to take blame for. I will take the full blame on splitting here, since i am the person that asked for it since i always do that (although i would have anyway cuz i don't like saying no to people even if i was the one waiting in GF for something else), but i will not accept the blame for mlg since i know the true intentions there

also adhd still never gave me a penny yet. I've been asking him for the past 2 years, including last week, but he never responds once i bring that up. So i basically got double-screwed during mlg, for being banned for no reason but as an excuse to make mlg look more legit in dropping their game when i didn't even get anything out of it. The only reason i did that anyway is because i was too depressed from after losing to rich brown that i didn't want to play anymore, so i told adhd id just let him win cuz i didn't want to play anymore (I have really bad emotional problems that i need to fix but am unable to) so that's what i did (despite still not even getting paid for that anyway so i guess i was lied to).

I thought you were sponsored and had a paycheck now, though ? No one wants to see that kind of behaviour from a pro player, regardless of your reasons.

prog · Nov 19, 2012

Actually, I feel like an exclamation point. Alukard hosted the hell out of this tournament, and in the end, the final events disrespected him. Our community did this to one of our own hosts, why the hell would any TO on a much larger stage want to possibly be disrespected by someone who has been begging for a shot over and over again?

Mew2King said:
I want to comment on this part because I think you do not understand something - I play for 3 reasons.
1- I like smash
2- I'm already good at it, so I can make money from it (which i don't spend on anything except living necessities, such as food and such)
3- I do play to be the best. I still try when I split. I didn't want him to go sheik/marth, but i didn't care either way so i didn't say anything but i suppose i should have.

so while it is true that i will take the full blame for splitting w/ unknown since i suggested it, i want to say that your assumptions on the other aspects are completely wrong entirely (at least relating to me).

When people split, its usually an excuse to not give their all. We saw that tonight. And this isn't just aimed at you, although this was a great impetus for it. We are a brand, and we keep wanting to expand, however, with things like this, we're basically scaring away potential suitors.

Mew2King · Nov 19, 2012

I used sheik the whole time and played seriously -_- don't blame me on that. I wanted to win.

edit - used sheik 5 times and fox once* But I did play seriously, because I wanted to finally win a big tourney even though this was kind of lame cuz of all the BS

FalconPS · Nov 19, 2012

To be completely honest, I feel Unknown ****ed up to most.

prog · Nov 19, 2012

Mew2King said:
I used sheik the whole time and played seriously -_- don't blame me on that. I wanted to win.

Like I said, splitting is fine with me, but play it out with pride, demand that matchup. Winners semis left everyone with a big question mark, as it ended in a bit of controversy, that was your opportunity to change it to a period and end all doubt. That's what playing for pride means to me, you lost, you fought back, you want him playing the character that beat you, controller trouble or not. He beat you with it while it was broken, see if he can do it again.

Mew2King · Nov 19, 2012

prog said:
Like I said, splitting is fine with me, but play it out with pride, demand that matchup. Winners semis left everyone with a big question mark, as it ended in a bit of controversy, that was your opportunity to change it to a period and end all doubt. That's what playing for pride means to me, you lost, you fought back, you want him playing the character that beat you, controller trouble or not. He beat you with it while it was broken, see if he can do it again.

You're right about that I should have demanded the matchup. I just didn't care so i didn't say anything. I just wanted to win, and was going to let him use and do whatever he wanted.

Sweet™ · Nov 19, 2012

Both players agreed to go to FD with a technical version of (what I think is called) a Gentleman's Clause. If Unknown felt pressured into the situation, which I'm sure he wasn't, he should've contacted a TO. The rules are posted in the thread for a reason, not just to occupy space in the OP.

Read the rules if you want to play by them, and prevent yourself from getting screwed over.

There's no johns in a situation like this. Don't agree to what you don't want to do. On the same token, having to replay a match and having a different outcome was a big no-no. I believe there could've been some sort of middle ground in the situation without having to take such measures.

Jason's obviously a nice guy and I'm sure wouldn't lie for his own personal benefit. Just play the game and know what the rules are supposed to be. It really shouldn't matter if one rule is different from this tournament than the other ones.

.Ðempt · Nov 19, 2012

prog said:
Actually, I feel like an exclamation point. Alukard hosted the hell out of this tournament, and in the end, the final events disrespected him. Our community did this to one of our own hosts, why the hell would any TO on a much larger stage want to possibly be disrespected by someone who has been begging for a shot over and over again?

With all do respect, there's plenty of aspects to your posts that don't fall into correct logic. Not all of them, but some. I'm not going to sit here because you're the homie and there has just been a lot going on, but you need to be aware that not everything you're saying is 100% fact and is more under assumption than anything. And the lack of faith you have for your community astounds me. But I'm not about to get heated anymore. I'm done for tonight; this has gone too far.

prog · Nov 19, 2012

.Ðempt said:
With all do respect, there's plenty of aspects to your posts that don't fall into correct logic. Not all of them, but some. I'm not going to sit here because you're the homie and there has just been a lot going on, but you need to be aware that not everytime you're saying is 100% fact and is more under assumption than anything. And the lack of faith you have for your community astounds me. But I'm not about to get heated anymore. I'm done for tonight; this has gone too far.

It's fine, and honestly, I'm glad that you're saying it because your intensity shows your love for the game. I agree, I'm not saying absolute facts, but these are events that have happened before. There is a past of things like this happening, we need to change it for the future if we ever want to appear on a big stage.

And lack of faith in my community, there are a ton of players, TOs, etc. I would choose to represent smash based on character as well as skill, however, unfortunately, tonight's events don't look great for us.

If I got you fired up, great, help us change and become more reputable, because tonight certainly wasn't the face we want to put on, especially after a big grassroots effort for EVO consideration.

Mew2King · Nov 19, 2012

If you want me to look more reputable, don't make me play another match after i won a set (especially when it's the normal/usual ruleset anyway). That screwed my mindset up from that point onward for the rest of the tourney VERY badly.

I'll apologize for asking to split, but nothing else was my fault. In all other aspects I got screwed very badly. I was even nice enough to agree to change the bracket TO MAKE THE BRACKET MUCH HARDER FOR MYSELF, yet the way I get treated in return is terribly unfair. I'm actually pretty mad about this myself. I'll apologize for splitting, but honestly I am still mad at all the BS that happened to me, which greatly ****ed up my mindset.

Bob Money · Nov 19, 2012

These are grown men and they can do whatever they want, but do not understand how you can be so close to winning the first national tournament and willingly throw it away. Was it worth the $ 30? Heck, even the less - 100-200 dollars or whatever? In any case I am sure that Unknown has a good reason to throw his chance to win a major tournament and cement himself as a high level player. I'm sure Mew2King has a good reason to accept less money to do its job (Play Melee) as he says. I'm sure KK has a good reason to go to Fox and do not want to win his first U.S. major.

Yep I'm confident they have solid sound reasoning behind why chose to split.
If they were tired, then SD all your stocks and do not play.
If one of them needed spending money, then just give them money after the tournament was played.
If their SD controllers are broken then four stocks. Or play a character less technically challenging.
If its emotional distress, then say it.

Yep I am confident that they have solid reasoning 2/3 of the players throw away their shot at winning a national tournament of this magnitude, especially since its thier first time to do it, it almost seems as if this was planned I mean that I know would not travel to a different country and plan to do this, but I do not have the foresight and planning or skills to do so. I like how Unknown played a rematch of Game 5 with m2K, def showed a willingness/hunger to win ... oh wait.

In the end, however, they do not owe anyone an explanation, because they were clever, had the talent and strategy to take full advantage of a community based tournament so it would be benefit the 3 of them equally. Kudus for being smart enough for the masterplan wellplayed. you are all smarter than most of the players with the same amount of skill level, as all of you.
__________________

.Ðempt · Nov 19, 2012

Juggleguy said:
Considering the number of people complaining about how the "final three sets" were split at ROM 5, I'm surprised at how little discussion there is about what I believe is the source of the mess: the Game 5 rematch in the Winners Semis set between Mew2King and Unknown. Have you considered what state of mind these guys were in after this debacle? Put yourself in Mew2King's shoes; you've just been the victim of a poor TOing decision and robbed of a victory, and now everyone is asking you to play three extra sets for the audience's entertainment. Yeah, I don't think you'd be so pumped up to do that either.

We haven't even begun to talk about how Unknown and Eggm were swapped to opposite sides of Winners Semis. I've always believed that poor TOing decisions can carry over to the players' mindsets and result in messes like these, and I think we saw an example of this at ROM 5.

I want to preface this post by saying that I was only a stream viewer this weekend, so I'm sure my understanding of the situation is not as full as someone who witnessed it in-person. If anything stated below is a grossly inaccurate report of what happened, please correct me and I will fix it. The point of this post is NOT to put immediate blame on anyone involved, though there is definitely blame to go around. The point of this post is to inform people about the controversy that went down at ROM 5 with a focus on the Winners Semis set between Mew2King and Unknown, and to discuss the lessons we need to learn from this as a community.

---

The Facts (an unbiased explanation about exactly what happened)

Mew2King vs Unknown sit down to play Winners Semis, a best-of-5 set.

Unknown wins Game 1 on Battlefield
Mew2King wins Game 2 on Final Destination
Mew2King wins Game 3 on Fountain of Dreams
Unknown wins Game 4 on Fountain of Dreams

Mew2King counterpicks FD for Game 5, under the pretense that Modified DSR is in effect. For those who don't know, Modified DSR is a rule stating that you cannot counterpick the stage you last won on in a set. Under the Modified DSR rule, Mew2King is 100% allowed to counterpick FD for Game 5.

Unknown questions the ability to counterpick FD, under the pretense that Standard DSR is in effect. For those who don't know, Standard DSR is a rule stating that you cannot counterpick any stage you have won on in a set. Under the Standard DSR rule, Mew2King is not allowed to counterpick FD for Game 5.

At this point, Mew2King assures him that Modified DSR is in effect, as it has been at virtually every major tourney in 2012, including Apex 2012, WinterGameFest VII, SMYM 13, Northwest Manifest, Zenith, Smashers Reunion, Rule 6 Regional, Big House 2, and Kings of Cali (yes, I did check each and every one of those tourneys' threads to confirm this). Without confirming the rules with the TOs, they go ahead to play out the match, and Mew2King wins Game 5 on Final Destination.

After this, it is brought up to the TO, Alukard, that Mew2King counterpicked FD for Game 5. Alukard cites the ROM 5 Smashboards thread that says Standard DSR is in effect, not Modified DSR. Based on this, he decides to force Mew2King and Unknown to go back and replay Game 5 on a different stage. Mew2King comes back to the setup and counterpicks Yoshi's Story. Unknown wins this Game 5 rematch.

---

What Went Wrong (my completely biased opinion about the mishandlings of the situation)

1. The TOs decided to use a strange rule that no other major tourney in 2012 has used. We can debate the pros and cons of Standard DSR vs Modified DSR in best-of-5 sets all we want, but the bottomline is this: ROM 5 is the only major tourney in 2012 that decided to use Standard DSR for best-of-5 sets. On the other hand, here's the list of tourneys that used Modified DSR for best-of-5 sets: Apex 2012, WinterGameFest VII, SMYM 13, Northwest Manifest, Zenith, Smashers Reunion, Rule 6 Regional, Big House 2, Kings of Cali. Although ROM 5's different take on the rule was mentioned in the Smashboards thread, it was NOT clearly communicated to the attendees. As a TO, when you go against the status quo and decide to use a rule different from one used at every other major tournament, you need to clearly communicate that to your attendees. MELEE-FC10R is a great example of a tourney that did this SUCCESSFULLY with its info packet and entire thread dedicated to ruleset discussion. ROM 5 failed at this.

2. Unknown522 did not confirm the rules with the TOs before the set. A common opinion in the stream seemed to be that Mew2King "lied" to Unknown, telling him Modified DSR was in play in order to counterpick FD for Game 5. My response to this is... really? Let's think about a hypothetical example. If I told you before a tourney set that we're supposed to play a best-of-1 set and you go ahead with it, then after the match you found out it was done wrong, who is to blame? It's not my fault, it's YOUR fault for starting the match without getting TO clarification. It is completely unfair to blame Mew2King for this. The player who objects is the one responsible for getting clarification from the TOs. It's really not that hard to understand; if you have a problem with something, it's your responsibility to step up and deal with it. Unknown522 should have gotten TO clarification before playing if he felt like a rule wasn't being followed. Mew2King should not have been responsible for this.

3. The players were wrongly forced to replay Game 5. Yes, Standard DSR was stated as the rule in effect in the ROM 5 Smashboards thread. Yes, Mew2King and Unknown played out Game 5 on a stage that shouldn't have been allowed under the stated rules, no matter how bad those rules were. With that said, as a TO, you should NOT ask players to replay a game whose outcome has already been decided. As a player, if you fail to get TO clarification on the rules and you go ahead to play out the match, then you live with the result. Having to replay a match messes with the mindset of both players and is especially unfair to the player who won the original match, EVEN IF if that match was played under a slightly different take on the rules. The original Genesis is a great example of a tourney that did this SUCCESSFULLY with their decision to uphold the Mew2King vs Armada outcome since both players had gone ahead and played out their set under one set of assumptions. ROM 5 failed at this.

---

tldr;

Mew2King got robbed in Winners Semis.

ROM 5 used a strange rule, Standard DSR for best-of-5 sets, that has not been used at ANY major tourney in 2012, and this different take on the rule was not clearly communicated to the attendees. In the future, every major tournament needs to clearly communicate its ruleset to all attendees, especially RULES THAT GO AGAINST THE STATUS QUO, in an effort to cut down on wasted time and needless confusion.

The players failed to confirm rules with the TOs before playing out their set, resulting in unnecessary confusion. In the future, we need to emphasize a simple fact: the player who objects to an understanding of a rule is the one responsible for checking with the TO! This is a pretty simple concept to understand; if you object to something, then it's your problem to solve. In this case, it's Unknown's responsibility, not Mew2King's.

And finally, the TOs subsequently failed to handle the situation properly because they wrongly asked the players to replay Game 5 of their set. After an original outcome is decided based on assumptions that both players go ahead and play with, you need to live with the result. In the future, every major tournament thread needs to include a section explaining how it will deal with a ruleset misunderstanding by its players.

So I argue that the Game 5 rematch in Winners Semis set between Mew2King and Unknown is what eventually led to the splitting mentality, and you know the unfortunate part of it all? Everything could have been avoided. If the players had easy access to Alukard for ruleset clarification during that set. If the players had simply read up on the rules beforehand. If the rules were properly advertised to begin with. If the rules had followed the precedent set by the first nine major Melee tournaments of 2012.

What other lessons can we learn from ROM 5, and what steps should we take as a community to ensure nothing like this happens again?

Once again, it is obviously Alukard who is being held responsible for this mess. Obvious to me, anyways.

prog · Nov 19, 2012

Mew2King said:
If you want me to look more reputable, don't make me play another match after i won a set. That screwed my mindset up from that point onward for the rest of the tourney VERY badly.

I'll apologize for asking to split, but nothing else was my fault. In all other aspects I got screwed very badly.

That's why I'm calling out everyone. TOs, players, commentators, streamers, viewers, everyone. It was a series of unfortunate events, but unfortunately it happened on a pretty large stage.

.Ðempt · Nov 19, 2012

prog said:
It's fine, and honestly, I'm glad that you're saying it because your intensity shows your love for the game. I agree, I'm not saying absolute facts, but these are events that have happened before. There is a past of things like this happening, we need to change it for the future if we ever want to appear on a big stage.

And lack of faith in my community, there are a ton of players, TOs, etc. I would choose to represent smash based on character as well as skill, however, unfortunately, tonight's events don't look great for us.

If I got you fired up, great, help us change and become more reputable, because tonight certainly wasn't the face we want to put on, especially after a big grassroots effort for EVO consideration.

I recommend you take a look at the few posts I had the last 2-3 pages. Sums up my entire opinion. If you're too tired to read, I'll be more than happy to multi-quote it tomorrow.

Fortune · Nov 19, 2012

edit:
I was not there, I don't know what happened. Never mind.

NewJerusalem · Nov 19, 2012

LOL at the people who weren't there speculating.

.Ðempt · Nov 19, 2012

NewJerusalem said:
LOL at the people who weren't there speculating.

Instead of LOOOOLing, how about you put in your two cents? Assuming of course, you were there. Otherwise, you'd be pretty hypocritical to say that.

iRobinhoood · Nov 19, 2012

After tonight, I feel it's my personal responsibility to help out the current melee scene. I don't post often or place well at all but I've got plans. Gordon's got plans.

*I was at the event and geographically in the middle of all the controversy that happened from start to finish.

HugS™ · Nov 19, 2012

I once paid a top smasher $100 to stop bugging me about throwing a match and instead leave the results of our upcoming match to our skill.

I hope most top smashers still have enough respect for themselves and the game to keep things legit on some level.

I'd trade every dollar I ever made on smash to win a national. Letting the value of competition leave your mind for a few extra dollars, at a national, is an insult to the community at large. If you want 80 extra dollars, get a job. Or f-it, make sure you win the god-damn national.

I've actually agreed to split before at tournaments, but it was only to get the idea of money out of the way, because winning was the only thing I wanted to matter. We're broke, we're smashers, sometimes money is what we need to survive.

But to mediate the risk by splitting, ONLY in order to guarantee a smaller reward, you should just get into the working world. Get into a weak-*** job at Subway where you'll never be fired. But please, stay out of smash if you're willing to sandbag in front of thousands because you already know you're getting a few extra bucks.

Vinylic. · Nov 19, 2012

Look, it's not that I'll hate people for what they did. I'm just as upset as everyone else and it's a cluster****.

All I'm asking for now is to avoid that outcome next time.

iRobinhoood · Nov 19, 2012

What if we had some sweet trophies to dish out? Not no party city crap but some really nice/unique trophies for top three finishes? Each trophy could be customized to fit re-occurring events. ROM trophies look similar, Zenith trophies look similar, Apex etc. etc.

Bones0 · Nov 19, 2012

It seems like this was really just a bunch of tiny issues coming together to make one cluster***.
- M2K wanted to split (sucks, but w/e)
- Alukard made them replay game 5 (as long as he realizes why TOs shouldn't do that, it's w/e; mistakes happen, especially when you're running a huge tournament)
- I didn't watch myself, but it sounds like Unknown and KK sandbagged at certain points; lame, but what are you going to do? I wish like everyone else that all the top players would give 110% all the time, but that's not within anyone's control other than the players themselves.

1000g2g3g4g800999 · Nov 19, 2012

Then people would just melt them down to split.

Pink Reaper · Nov 19, 2012

HugS™ said:
I once paid a top smasher $100 to stop bugging me about throwing a match and instead leave the results of our upcoming match to our skill.

I hope most top smashers still have enough respect for themselves and the game to keep things legit on some level.

I'd trade every dollar I ever made on smash to win a national. Letting the value of competition leave your mind for a few extra dollars, at a national, is an insult to the community at large. If you want 80 extra dollars, get a job. Or f-it, make sure you win the god-damn national.

I've actually agreed to split before at tournaments, but it was only to get the idea of money out of the way, because winning was the only thing I wanted to matter. We're broke, we're smashers, sometimes money is what we need to survive.

But to mediate the risk by splitting, ONLY in order to guarantee a smaller reward, you should just get into the working world. Get into a weak-*** job at Subway where you'll never be fired. But please, stay out of smash if you're willing to sandbag in front of thousands because you already know you're getting a few extra bucks.

See, you say all this, but the ONE time Ken comes back in 5 years and you have a chance to finally win that set you never won back in the day, you show up at the end of the tournament just to commentate.

Play2win hugo. Even if it's 5 years later, IT STILL COUNTS!

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