ROM 5 - Mew2King vs Unknown522

[iRobinhoood]

Then people would just melt them down to split.

lol was this in response to the trophy suggestion? I meant something like these, I don't know if they're glass or not but they look sweet. I say cut out second or third for the trophy and just make it first place. Easier on the pockets and more is at stake as there's only ONE trophy up for grabs.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I still try when I split.

No you ****ing don't. You v s2j at NYTE and ReveLAtions were similarly despicable.

When a player is on the brink of their first national win, the last thing they want to hear from their opponent is an offer to split. It deflates them completely. Players want to win, and they want to feel like they earned it. How most players interpret an offer to split is "oh, he doesn't even want to try..."

When you pull **** like this, its disrespectful to the players, the TOs, the streamers, and the fans. I know there is a lot of pressure on you to not forfeit, but whats even worse is splitting.

For clarification, Kings of Cali had these broad guidelines listed in its "conduct rules":

Intentional forfeiting, match fixing, splitting, and any other forms of bracket manipulation are not allowed and punishable by the TO.

If I hear a thing about splitting, forfeiting, or fixing at my tournaments, I can do whatever the **** I want with you. I don't care if you just propose a split and don't go through with it. The moment I hear anything about it, expect repercussions. If you ever come to my tournaments Mew2king, know that this topic will be treated very strictly. I'd love to make an example out of someone, and I don't care if its one of my Marth idols.

If you're curious what I would have done in this case, I would have allowed you to forfeit your set with Hax, and divided your winnings among the other top 8 players. If that didn't happen, but you split in GFs, I would have DQed you before the set begun, and replaced you with Kirbykaze. Once again, any and all winnings (including teams) would be divided among the other competitors; you would not get your entry fee back.

 

[Mew2King]

Oh, you brought up a good point. Okay, you're right, I did not go sheik vs s2j at Revelations GF because I wanted to focus on brawl since it had a huge pot bonus. I can't say anything in response to that since I'm wrong there. I still wanted to win this tourney though and I tried to win GF.

edit - that reminds me, I'm still owed 923 dollars from Revelations <_<. the TO won't pay us

 

[ZoSo]

^That is the dumbest ****ing thing I've ever heard.

edit: directed at CrimsonBlur

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

^That is the dumbest ****ing thing I've ever heard.

edit: directed at CrimsonBlur

Oh, I'll be very stupid on this topic. And very stubborn.

My advice is to never push me into making that type of decision.

 

[Bones0]

How is what Crimson said dumb? He said his rules dictated that splitting would be punished, so in the case of this tournament he would have given the winnings to other players who didn't break the rules. That seems perfectly appropriate. And Crimson is like the biggest M2K fanboy ever, so if you think he's just hating on M2K you're wrong. He just hates splitting that much because he understands the effects it has on this community and the perceptions others have on this community.

 

[ZoSo]

There could be any number of reasons why somebody would want to (or even have to) forfeit a match. I forfeit my match to Swift in losers because I had to leave early and go to work. People shouldn't be penalized for these things. Bracket manipulation is a whole different matter.

I'm more than a little appalled that you think you're entitled to just arbitrarily refuse to give players their payouts.

On the other hand, I don't mean to defend what happened at RoM. I just got home and I'm pretty disappointed to learn what went down.

 

[Bones0]

There could be any number of reasons why somebody would want to (or even have to) forfeit a match. I forfeit my match to Swift in losers because I had to leave early and go to work. People shouldn't be penalized for these things. Bracket manipulation is a whole different matter.

I'm more than a little appalled that you think you're entitled to just arbitrarily refuse to give players their payouts.

I'm sure if you had a legit reason for forfeiting the TO would be okay with it. Something tells me noone in the top 3 of RoM had to go to work at midnight on Sunday...

 

[C.SDK]

I once paid a top smasher $100 to stop bugging me about throwing a match and instead leave the results of our upcoming match to our skill.

I hope most top smashers still have enough respect for themselves and the game to keep things legit on some level.

I'd trade every dollar I ever made on smash to win a national. Letting the value of competition leave your mind for a few extra dollars, at a national, is an insult to the community at large. If you want 80 extra dollars, get a job. Or f-it, make sure you win the god-damn national.

I've actually agreed to split before at tournaments, but it was only to get the idea of money out of the way, because winning was the only thing I wanted to matter. We're broke, we're smashers, sometimes money is what we need to survive.

But to mediate the risk by splitting, ONLY in order to guarantee a smaller reward, you should just get into the working world. Get into a weak-*** job at Subway where you'll never be fired. But please, stay out of smash if you're willing to sandbag in front of thousands because you already know you're getting a few extra bucks.

I've always thought you were one of the few from the Melee community that had a voice of reason.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

There could be any number of reasons why somebody would want to (or even have to) forfeit a match. I forfeit my match to Swift in losers because I had to leave early and go to work. People shouldn't be penalized for these things. Bracket manipulation is a whole different matter.

I'm more than a little appalled that you think you're entitled to just arbitrarily refuse to give players their payouts.

No no sorry the wording on that was a little weird. Forfeiting is a case by case basis; in M2K's particular case at this tournament, before his set with Hax, he would get nothing back. But like if he had a family emergency and had to leave or something I would give him the money he earned up to that point.

Splitting however would get absolutely nothing 100% of the time. Thats definitive.

 

[iRobinhoood]

But on a more serious note we need to make some upgrades to these venues.

 

[ZoSo]

I once paid a top smasher $100 to stop bugging me about throwing a match and instead leave the results of our upcoming match to our skill.

I hope most top smashers still have enough respect for themselves and the game to keep things legit on some level.

I'd trade every dollar I ever made on smash to win a national. Letting the value of competition leave your mind for a few extra dollars, at a national, is an insult to the community at large. If you want 80 extra dollars, get a job. Or f-it, make sure you win the god-damn national.

I've actually agreed to split before at tournaments, but it was only to get the idea of money out of the way, because winning was the only thing I wanted to matter. We're broke, we're smashers, sometimes money is what we need to survive.

But to mediate the risk by splitting, ONLY in order to guarantee a smaller reward, you should just get into the working world. Get into a weak-*** job at Subway where you'll never be fired. But please, stay out of smash if you're willing to sandbag in front of thousands because you already know you're getting a few extra bucks.

Just noticed this post, 100% agree with everything said here.

I'm skeptical of the idea of creating rules to punish splitters, etc. The players should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want with their winnings. But as a matter of personal dignity and respect for the community, at the very least try to make it look good.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, KK is not guilty. I ****ed up bad. Even if you guys still hate me, let it be known that I truly apologize and will never let it happen again, if it ever comes up again. It was not for money or anything. It really was to just get m2k to stop *****ing!

Honest and true. I really really ****ed up. I even offered to the TOs to run back GFs and not split after it happened. But they said it was too late, just don't worry about it. I felt so bad and mad for many hours. Super stressed.

I also didn't think that the boards would blow up like this, and I apologized way before **** blew up.

I'm also not the first/only person to do this. But it was really bad.

Word .

 

[Jebril]

Still waiting for M2K to team with ADHD so we can have team Banana Split...oh sorry wrong game.

 

[Mew2King]

run back GF after it was played out and u lost? <_<
like running back game 5 after it was played out and u lost? <____<

like i understand what you're saying but come on, you can't "run it back" after it's played out and you lose. That can only benefit you in those situations honestly.

i would have been happy for u to go all fox/falco but you seemed to want to go marth/sheik. I should have said something, but im dumb so i didn't. I just tried to fight my best using my best character (sheik, although i tried fox first game) cuz i wanted to win the tourney.

like again ill repeat, that i take full responbility for asking to split (even though if i was waiting in GF i would have agreed to it too cuz i always do and used to do that with cactuar/jman/azen/chu/pc/etc/etc all the time back in the day and it's the norm for me) but i really do not like winning and then having it not be counted. It's unfair and ruins my mindset. The risk-reward ratio there is: had i lost, then i lose and that's it, but if i win it doesn't count. So there's only something to lose, but nothing to gain. That's really really wack.

I think i regret letting alukard change the bracket, since i was originally going to fight eggm to get to WF which would have not only avoided this, but made it much easier for me. It makes me upset that people try to see me as evil when I am always doing nice things like this, and people always just ASSUMING I have some stupid malicious intent when I am honestly the opposite of that type of person. Okay, so I can be stupid at times I will admit to this but it is NEVER with a bad intention.

 

[Krynxe]

Unknown is still my favorite fox

real talk

Also, I see no problem with forfeiting as long as the player who forfeit is not gaining anything from it. I see no problem with splitting in itself, like Hugs mentioned, so long as the players are still trying their best and aiming to win.

However, since neither of these two situations can really be consistently guaranteed in any way, I'd support TheCrimsonBlur with his harsh rules in regards to larger tournaments. At that point, it's about the community.

edit: following the above logic, I don't think m2k was at wrong because he did try. He's also being calm and respectful about this, and telling the truth about the situation, so stop giving him ****.

 

[Mew2King]

edit-ignore

 

[GimR]

I've always thought that if the players play it out then it should stand regardless of the ruleset.

If the TO makes a decision you gotta man up and deal with it though. Maybe I've been in the fgc too long but smash players look soft in comparison.

Btw, this is one if the reasons Japan has a better mind set. There is no money so everyone is playing for the love of the game and to win. It's all about the love of the game. Money can flub all of this up.

 

[NintendoKing]

We have this new kid named Brian Hu who used to live in Norcal but just started going to college in the Midwest. He just got into competitive melee and has been devoting ample amounts of time to learning everything he can about the game; from its players, to all the technical aspects of the gameplay, to basically everything.

He just watched the entirety of this tournament on twitch.tv and I know he was totally stoked to watch all these amazing players duke it out. I remember in our Norcal Facebook he posted something along the lines of "Scar <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3".

Then top 3 happened.

He enjoyed watching pb&j play that sexy bowser more than he did watching finals.

He's new. He's probably going to throw money at a National one day to AT LEAST make it out of pools. Or maybe just go just to enjoy the experience.

This community is still alive and it still attracts new people all the time. This kid Brian Hu is one example of many new players that I know of that are JUST NOW getting into this game.

So just real quick, to all you top level players making money off of this game: Don't hurt the community just because you're in it to make a quick buck. You only make money off of this game BECAUSE the community exists.

Maybe everyone forgot about this saying, but I still live by it and still call people on it whenever I play:No Johns.

I hate the way Hungrybox plays with all my being, but after his post, I hope he plows through every ***** *** top money making player in every single national tournament he attends.

Mew2King: Grow a ****ing backbone.

 

[NewJerusalem]

Instead of LOOOOLing, how about you put in your two cents? Assuming of course, you were there. Otherwise, you'd be pretty hypocritical to say that.

It would be hypocritical to say that if I wasn't there. If I was speculating.

Good thing I was there. First hand.

People have already stated what I feel about what happened. It's the player's responsibility to know the rule set after it has been posted. The TO can do whatever he wants to a player who breaks the rules.

 

[Hax]

all i have to say is

battlefield only

edit: does dave's modified stupid rule even make logical sense? seems to artificially make it important which game in a set you win/lose

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

It's unfair and ruins my mindset. The risk-reward ratio there is: had i lost, then i lose and that's it, but if i win it doesn't count. So there's only something to lose, but nothing to gain. That's really really wack.

This is exactly what happens the moment you propose a split Jason. Your opponent either loses, or wins vs someone who they think (regardless of whether you say you're trying or not) doesn't care about the outcome. Its a lose-lose situation; in either scenario they don't think they've "beaten" M2K.

Proposing splits is a dangerous thing and I wish you'd stop doing it. This isn't old-school anymore. You're opponent isn't Cactuar/Chu/Azen and he doesn't know you well enough to know that you'll still try. Most people take a proposal to split very differently than they used to; it ruins their mentality and drive to win.

This tournament could have been your first Melee major win in years, and a big moment for all your fans. RoM 5 will instead be remembered for its controversy, and what it showed about the community as a whole. The thousands of new players who watched the stream, and will watch the archives/youtube videos, will get a very negative impression about Melee, all the players involved in the split, and our community in general. It was a missed opportunity for you as a player, and a sad day for all of us trying to make the scene better.

 

[Isatis]

Half-asleep Bionic here.

I think NintendoKing covered it the best. The way top 3 played out was not only disgusting but an insult to the work not only we do, but in this situation to any dedicated streamer puts into streaming an event. Streamers spend time and money going to events to broadcast top level play and grow the community, and just to end up streaming the top 3 split and sandbag to 3750 viewers was humiliating. These are the viewers that are interested in Melee and might want to start playing. There is no point in streaming the event if the players are going to do this in finals. This hasn't been the first time this type of situation happened, which is why I'm really upset.

By the way, 100% agree with what GimR said.

 

[Qual_]

Proposing splits is a dangerous thing and I wish you'd stop doing it.

First : Sorry for my english.

I dont see any problems with splitting, but please, do it after you win GFs, just don't propose it before playing all sets. It's not your money until you earn it...

And then, if you win, if want want to be cool/nice/whatever you want, you can split the money... we don't give a **** about that, if you propose it after GFs.

What is the difference ?
This:

Splitting versus getting second place actually makes no difference in the money I won.

For me it's sounds like :

"So why do i need to try the best that i can, if in all case, i'll get the same amount of bucks ?"

I've stayed up all the night ( France ) to watch the tournament... for seeing.. 2 guys that don't try the hardest they can ( Come on dudes... it's a national... not a small local tournament... ) because it's make no difference in the money they won.


M2k : I understand all what you say, i just want to say one thing : If you forfeit -> you forfeit,
forfeiting is not like a shine, or needles, you just can't cancel it like you do...

Scar, Hax, you guys, are why i play falcon, and why i love it. Thank you so much.

 

[Espy Rose]

Still waiting for M2K to team with ADHD so we can have team Banana Split...oh sorry wrong game.

Shots fired.

Hugs summed it up best so far, so I'll just support his post 110%.

 

[C.SDK]

GOOD **** HUGS.

The next big tournament is Apex, right? I'm gonna be watching that. I'm not sure if Alex already has this covered, but Alex should do what Crimson did and explicitly ban the act of splitting etc etc.

 

[King Funk]

OK, so first of all, I have nothing else to add about the whole Winners Semis debacle and the splitting because those subject has been covered in its entirety.

Two under-discussed things that annoyed me profoundly as a stream viewer and tournament organizer:

1. Changing the Winners Semis

I just don't understand how that could have gone through. It's understandable that you would want to get some more interesting matches, but this is not something you can do that late into the tournament. You have to stick to the plan. Even if it has been done before, it's completely wrong. It's detrimental to the mindset of some players who are expecting to face someone but get someone else in the last second. Also, were the players who were still in Losers bracket asked what they thought about that decision? Must be quite annoying to get M2K when you were most probably supposed to face Eggm.

If you want to see some specific players face each other in the late stages of the bracket, make sure you create the original bracket with that intent in mind. No last second changes.

2. Two-minute warmups

This really HAS to die. I was baffled by how virtually every late bracket set required warmups, and even more so by how LONG some of those were. What a massive waste of time. For whom? Not just for the stream viewers who are watching, but most importantly, for the overall progress of your tournament. There's nothing wrong with running every single late bracket set on the stream, it gives the viewers a lot more to watch and it's nice. But you can't let such long and tedious warmups happen every single time. It lowers the entertainment value for the stream and slows down your tournament heavily. It's the responsibility of the players to be fit to play their sets. It's also the responsibility of the players to make sure their controllers are working well.

If players want to warm up, they should find another setup and do so on their own/with someone.

If players really HAVE to warm up on stream, make sure it doesn't last longer than 20 seconds.

_________________________________________________________________________

TL;DR

Don't change the bracket when you're that far into it.

No more 2 minute warmups on stream.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I think NintendoKing covered it the best. The way top 3 played out was not only disgusting but an insult to the work not only we do, but in this situation to any dedicated streamer puts into streaming an event. Streamers spend time and money going to events to broadcast top level play and grow the community, and just to end up streaming the top 3 split and sandbag to 3750 viewers was humiliating. These are the viewers that are interested in Melee and might want to start playing. There is no point in streaming the event if the players are going to do this in finals. This hasn't been the first time this type of situation happened, which is why I'm really upset.

By the way, 100% agree with what GimR said.

This, there's a LOT more involved than mere winnings. These kinds of incidents are harming the community as whole in various ways. The sad thing is that splitting isn't that uncommon but in my opinion it's unacceptable and infuriating.

 

[Archangel]

1 word.

****

 

[Krynxe]

I agree with King Funk there completely

Though the change had a semi-legitimate reason, all changes to the bracket should be made initially and then finalized before being shown to the players, at which point it should remain stagnant.

And yes, overly long warm-ups are obnoxious and TOs should address them and make it a point to avoid it.

 

[the real jman]

All of ya shut the **** up u all sound like Lil *****es

Who r ya to say they can't spilt

It's a ****ing video game they can do whatever the **** they want if they got that far in brakit

I'm ****ing glad I don't play anymore u smashers now a days r lil *****es ya ***** about everything instead of trying to get good your selfs

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

All of ya shut the **** up u all sound like Lil *****es

Who r ya to say they can't spilt

It's a ****ing video game they can do whatever the **** they want if they got that far in brakit

I'm ****ing glad I don't play anymore u smashers now a days r lil *****es ya ***** about everything instead of trying to get good your selfs

real talk.

tell em jman!

*****ezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[C.SDK]

All of ya shut the **** up u all sound like Lil *****es

Who r ya to say they can't spilt

It's a ****ing video game they can do whatever the **** they want if they got that far in brakit

I'm ****ing glad I don't play anymore u smashers now a days r lil *****es ya ***** about everything instead of trying to get good your selfs

That's wsp. Tired of all these *****es *****ing about **** that don't even do.

 

[King Funk]

Is that really Jman? Isn't Jman supposed to be this guy:
http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=60622

 

[Archangel]

that is not the real Jman. It's some random dude posing as Jman.

 

[genkaku]

have you been on the fox boards? it's jman.

 

[Archangel]

I was referring too "the real Jman".

Also, I think forfeiting is fine since it happens, or sometimes you simply know you can't win and to save yourself from getting destroyed you just let them pass or you have work the next day and can't afford to stay any longer...etc. That's completely fine imo.

However, If you forfeit at any point in the top 8, 5, or 3 depending on the size of the tournament, You should also forfeit the money for that particular placing. Sandbagging or playing a 2nd/3rd string character should also count as forfeiting and therefore be subject to the same punishment. Of course this would be at the TO's digression.

 

[Jolteon]

I think forfeiting should be a case specific thing. I believe it was ZoSo who mentioned this, but he brought up an example where he had to forfeit so that he could get to work on time. I see that as a completely legitimate reason to forfeit and would not want to penalise someone for doing so, then on the other hand you have cases like we had at RoM5 with people wanting to forfeit halfway through their first game or right after they got sent into loser's bracket. Thankfully, we have TOs for this.

Also, I agree 100% with Funk about the excessive warm-ups. It's definitely the thing that killed my stream experience the most, it was so over the top and just a completely obnoxious thing to happen. I was up at 4am just watching mew2king spend 2-3 minutes warming up several times a set... for several sets. I understand that tournaments are not run for streamers, but it was really ridiculous in this case.

 

[KrIsP!]

I just checked the KoC OP and they used standard dsr no bans bo5. I dont think you can jump on alus back even if this is a weird ruleset.(which i dont think it was) what if by some strange reason corneria and brinstar was on. Does he have to go around telling everyone or does all he have to do is post it in the ruleset on the thread?

If it were something as big as that people would have talked about it. Thing is, that same day nintendude had brought up the fact that wobbling was legal, even went and asked alukard because he read the rules. I don't think anyone shoudl shoulder ALL of the blame. Unknown did question M2K's counter pick and apparently asked more people as ALukard wasn't around atm. Alukard did use a rule that's not super odd and though I don't agree with the rematch it was hype as **** lol.

Moral of the story, need a rule to limit button checks to 2 minutes before a set max.

 

[Kal]

I agree that splitting is rude and disrespectful (as I've seen it change results from the way they "should" be), but people who are suggesting it should be a rule have got to be kidding. There's virtually no way to prove that someone engaged in "bracket manipulation" if he wants to hide it, and it's not by any means ethical to decide what a person does with the money he's earned in a tournament.

I'm all for stigmatizing "bracket manipulation" (this is a ******** term), but banning it is totally unenforceable.