Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Scrubtorights]

Yay most of my mains are bottom teir! :3

Serriously though, do tiers really matter all that much? From what I've heard, they're all based on how well the characters do in tournament matches, and I've seen lower tiers give quite a beating to higher ones. So what's even the purpose of them? Why are there tier lists, and why do people take them so serriously (not putting labels on anyone here)?

I love competitive Smash, and from the amount of times I destroy people with bottom tier Ganondorf or low tier Kirby/Bowser (pr when I get horribly rekt by Lucina when I used Cloud), it just comes to show that the knowledge and skill of the players is what really puts an advantage at play. So are tier lists just there for show? Are they there for bias? Are they there to help players decide who's "easier" to use and who might be a little more difficult?

I'd just like to know the purpose of making lists just as these. No offense intended, just a question.

I will just leave this here for starters before we go any further. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Tier_list

 

[my_T]

Mario766

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

People acting like diddy not being able to kill under a hundred is a huge deal when he has very safe kill confirms. It's not like he's sheik or sonic who have to fish alot harder for there kills. The only clear weakness he has is his recovery

What's funny is that despite getting hit by the Mjolnir of nerf hammers he's still kinda ridiculous.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Yay most of my mains are bottom teir! :3

Serriously though, do tiers really matter all that much? From what I've heard, they're all based on how well the characters do in tournament matches, and I've seen lower tiers give quite a beating to higher ones. So what's even the purpose of them? Why are there tier lists, and why do people take them so serriously (not putting labels on anyone here)?

I love competitive Smash, and from the amount of times I destroy people with bottom tier Ganondorf or low tier Kirby/Bowser (pr when I get horribly rekt by Lucina when I used Cloud), it just comes to show that the knowledge and skill of the players is what really puts an advantage at play. So are tier lists just there for show? Are they there for bias? Are they there to help players decide who's "easier" to use and who might be a little more difficult?

I'd just like to know the purpose of making lists just as these. No offense intended, just a question.

Please read the entire first page of the discussion group before pitching in your two cents nonchalantly. This group has been having a much needed discussion about a prominent metagame force for two pages now, and your uninformed musings about how competitive smash works is strictly against the rules of this thread. If you want to know why tier lists exist and why all your mains are relatively garbage, you should try playing in a setting where skilled players are actually trying to win instead of playing against low level players online.

 

[Mario766]

Diddy's strengths are well known but also often exaggerated because it's the current flavor, the whole point was that after acknowledging these strengths Diddy still needs to win neutral from scratch so many times each stock that it's not really particularly scary unless you're at very high percents. I'm just as scared of Ryu in neutral and his is bad in comparison, but he literally only needs to win it 3 times and then once more for the kill. ~Triple that for Diddy.

Diddy needs to win neutral from scratch?


With the best neutral in the game?

That's a tall order, clearly. He wins neutral so consistently, with his damage racking, it doesn't take long to hit death percents, even if they are higher than say Ryu. Ryu has a low kill percent, but BECAUSE his neutral is lacking it means he wins less often.

Not to mention, it won't take upwards to 12 neutral wins for Diddy to get to kill percent with d-tilt grab b-airs doing upwards to 20, banana tosses thrown in, pummels. It won't be that many.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

so I'm guessing diddy sheik cloud are the 3 best contenders for best character in the game.

Personally I think it would beg>=. Both sheik and diddy are very consistent, versatile characters that have to work for their kills and be on point for the entirety of the game. But, cloud comes and CAN be on point for the majority of the game and then he messes up, gets hit some or a lot and then gets kill moves for messing up. psuedo lucario anyone? Cloud's neutral is up there for best in the game, gets beautiful juggles, and is just a really powerful character honestly.

 

[KeeganKTK]

Does anybody read the rules? >.>

To answer your question, they show how good a character is st high-level play and how likely they are to place well at tournaments. The player playing the character is important, obviously, but certain characters have tools to make things easier for the player to win.

...
I'll take note of that next time, sorry. :/

 

[C0rvus]

So is this thread moving on to full-on complaining about Diddy Kong? Already? Should've stayed away.

Doesn't he have losing matchups? Can we discuss those? I mean, are we even sure he's the best, and if he is, isn't that good? He's pretty well designed and has some weak points. Safety has always been king in this game. No surprise here.

 

[ZSaberLink]

so I'm guessing diddy sheik cloud are the 3 best contenders for best character in the game.

Personally I think it would beg>=. Both sheik and diddy are very consistent, versatile characters that have to work for their kills and be on point for the entirety of the game. But, cloud comes and CAN be on point for the majority of the game and then he messes up, gets hit some or a lot and then gets kill moves for messing up. psuedo lucario anyone? Cloud's neutral is up there for best in the game, gets beautiful juggles, and is just a really powerful character honestly.

Isn't Sheik's neutral still generally the best in the game? Diddy with a banana is still great, but even with Fair and needles nerfed, Sheik is still ridiculous in neutral in the right hands.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Isn't Sheik's neutral still generally the best in the game? Diddy with a banana is still great, but even with Fair and needles nerfed, Sheik is still ridiculous in neutral in the right hands.

Sheik is still best neutral to me. Needles are still amazing. But, diddy is literally right behind her though. Cloud is like top 5 neutral at least. That plus limit and sword power means ridiculousness.

 

[KeeganKTK]

So is this thread moving on to full-on complaining about Diddy Kong? Already? Should've stayed away.

Doesn't he have losing matchups? Can we discuss those? I mean, are we even sure he's the best, and if he is, isn't that good? He's pretty well designed and has some weak points. Safety has always been king in this game. No surprise here.

Just throw in a Luma highlight somewhere. That'll change the topic xD

 

[Megamang]

Diddy has to win neutral a lot in his close MUs. But if you have mediocre landing options, you just spend the whole game in psuedo disadvantage trying to land while he shields -> bananas you.

 

[KeeganKTK]

Diddy has to win neutral a lot in his close MUs. But if you have mediocre landing options, you just spend the whole game in psuedo disadvantage trying to land while he shields -> bananas you.

Can't you catch/pick up the bananas?

 

[PK Gaming]

Let's talk about

She's a character that's essentially been written off as "bad" but I don't think that's entirely accurate anymore. I don't think she's good, but i'd sooner classify her as a mediocre character rather than a bad one. She's got a ton of shortcomings, but she's also got a competent combo game, good mobility, and solid aerials. If you've been following him at all, Prince Ramen's been placing pretty well with her, even placing 7th at CEO prologue which had some good competition.

In short, she's nothing special, other characters do her stuff but better but what she has to offer ain't that bad.

 

[my_T]

Just curious here, how would you guys rate ryu's neutral?

Personally, I think it's...OK at best. No safe approaches, overall ****ty mobility (except for his walking specs), lack of range on most of his safe moves, most of his moves that do have good range are punishable, dash/standing/pivot grab all very underwhelming.

His CQC is very good but it seems a bit difficult to create a situation where he can use it if the opponent isn't whiffing or spacing poorly. You can try to approach or force a reaction with a light Hadouken (a common strat in SF) but you would need to be about half stage distance to do this because of the amount of end-lag on Hadouken. Also, this particular approach option is much more difficult to pull off in smash because of dodge rolling, air dodging, double jumping, and just having a lot more space to get around as opposed to SF

This might be why he has such strong punish tools. He reminds me of characters like DK and ness who generally have bad neutral and disadvantage while having good advantage and punishment to balance them out. The difference is that ryu's disadvantage state is pretty decent disadvantage state unlike ness and DK. I think ZSS has a similar design more aligned with ryu's in that her neutral is a bit weak while having a strong punish game and a good advantage and disadvantage state

Thoughts?

 

[Ropalme1914]

Ryu's dash grab is amazing, why do you think it's underwhelming?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Sheik is still best neutral to me. Needles are still amazing. But, diddy is literally right behind her though. Cloud is like top 5 neutral at least. That plus limit and sword power means ridiculousness.

Cloud's neutral is honestly on par with Sheiks
Almost all his aerials are safe on shield, are massively disjointed and have a huge reward for hitting, his mobility is almost on par with Sheiks, he has a massive projectile that covers a good distance, and he has Limit Charge.

Combined with his amazing advantage state, almost complete lack of losing matchups, and decent disadvantage state and you have one of the best characters in the game. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up being THE best character in the game

 

[FallofBrawl]

Ryu gets shut down pretty well if you play keep away.

You win by not approaching him.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Yay most of my mains are bottom teir! :3

Serriously though, do tiers really matter all that much? From what I've heard, they're all based on how well the characters do in tournament matches, and I've seen lower tiers give quite a beating to higher ones. So what's even the purpose of them? Why are there tier lists, and why do people take them so serriously (not putting labels on anyone here)?

I love competitive Smash, and from the amount of times I destroy people with bottom tier Ganondorf or low tier Kirby/Bowser (pr when I get horribly rekt by Lucina when I used Cloud), it just comes to show that the knowledge and skill of the players is what really puts an advantage at play. So are tier lists just there for show? Are they there for bias? Are they there to help players decide who's "easier" to use and who might be a little more difficult?

I'd just like to know the purpose of making lists just as these. No offense intended, just a question.

Trust me, at higher levels of play you definitely feel the gap between tiers a lot more. At locals or whatever tiers generally don't matter all that much, but at regional/national level they absolutely do. Dorf is definitely at a huge disadvantage when fighting a high-level Sheik or something, while higher tiers don't have to face MUs that are as hard. Player skill is more important overall, but at major tournaments where everyone is really good the gap between characters becomes magnified, as you can't realistically outplay such high-level players to the degree you need to on a consistent basis to win with lower tiers.

 

[Chalice]

On the topic of

You guys can say "play keep away with Ryu" but at the end of the day, unless you're Samus/Megaman/Cloud, you're going to have to get near him in some way or another to win. I mean, you kinda need to damage him to kill him bar gimps which is easier said than done. Unless you're okay with not trying to rack up damage.

Meanwhile, he's throwing Hadokens in your face, you can't approach him when he's walking, mixing up his approach with Focus Attack while slowly gaining stage control since you don't want to get near him.

Then when you're cornered you have to approach and the hurt really begins.

I recall Trela once saying this: "You can only run away for so long"

 

[my_T]

Ryu's dash grab is amazing, why do you think it's underwhelming?

you're right, his dash grab is pretty good. I still find it underwhelming because I don't really see a reason to fear it since it's kinda easy to keep him out. For example Ness's dash grab seems alot better because you have to respect dash attack because it's disjointed, has long range, and eats spot dodges giving him decent burst options at mid range.

Ryu's burst options aren't that great so i guess that's why i find his dash grab a bit underwhelming. It's quite good when he has the advantage though, but i'm focusing on how it works in neutral

 

[Luco]

Guys, stop being so hostile. The vets of this thread forget sometimes that it's not just the point they're trying to make, but the language they use that comes off strongly to newer posters in this discussion and is one of the reasons this is both such a famous, and infamous thread on smashboards.

It's been a rough 2 pages lol.

In regards to Ryu, his aim should be to take space, but if he over-extends, commits to an action or the opponent just feels gutsy enough, he can be liable to pivot actions or reads (rarely, and more of a player v player thing than an MU-defining thing) that prevent this game of cornering the opponent taking place. Some characters are better at pivot actions and, as mentioned, keep-away than others, so those characters tend to be able to avoid nasty situations vs Ryu better. It's one of the reasons I believe Lucas does really well vs him, because Ryu can't really commit to an aerial approach (because pivot grab outranges any landing option bar retreating FAC and Hadouken stall, the latter of which Ryu would do... Why?) and his grounded approach has to be pretty perfect to avoid retreating Ftilts and obviously PKF + Zair.

This of course only applies in the MUs Ryu is forced to approach in. It's probably a pretty horrifying experience if you have to approach Ryu yourself.

*Now wait for EL to tell me why I'm suuuuper wrong*

 

[RonNewcomb]

I find those to be pretty silly nitpicks...

They are. I know I sound like a bitter prepatch Marth main, but why couldn't they fiddle with ganondorf instead. I remember WoI was the only up.b that didn't refresh when hit out of it, and assume it would've used a fuel mechanic nowadays.

Thanks for the tips. (Blindspot ftilt is still dumb.)

What Ryu does depends on what his opponent does or wants to do.

True for everyone, but less true the more polarized the character. Polarization means losing backup plans.

Thank you for the kind words. I know you don't give them out often.

I promise I won't call your main SH-to-ridiculous-juggles: The KoF Character.

As for Mario....his frame data isn't a polarizing strength?

Semi-polarizing? It isn't best in game. And he relies on smashes to end stocks more than Sheik... He isn't anyone's worst MU....

 

[my_T]

On the topic of

You guys can say "play keep away with Ryu" but at the end of the day, unless you're Samus/Megaman/Cloud, you're going to have to get near him in some way or another to win. I mean, you kinda need to damage him to kill him bar gimps which is easier said than done. Unless you're okay with not trying to rack up damage.

Meanwhile, he's throwing Hadokens in your face, you can't approach him when he's walking, mixing up his approach with Focus Attack while slowly gaining stage control since you don't want to get near him.

Then when you're cornered you have to approach and the hurt really begins.

I recall Trela once saying this: "You can only run away for so long"

You can say the same thing about ryu; he has to go in eventually as well. This strongly depends on who ever gets the lead though

 

[Chalice]

You can say the same thing about ryu; he has to go in eventually as well. This strongly depends on who ever gets the lead though

Uh, no? Because his gameplan is already to go in and eff up the opponent xD

It's how he's going to get in and any competent players knows that. They are worrying about not getting rekt by everything about him that hurts

 

[my_T]

Uh, no? Because his gameplan is already to go in and eff up the opponent xD

It's how he's going to get in and any competent players knows that. They are worrying about not getting rekt by everything about him that hurts

I'm well aware of the fact that ryu wants to go in. The problem is that his approach options aren't that great. If you get the lead you can play very defensive and force him to approach, but he can also do the same to you

 

[Megamang]

The best characters can exert pressure on you without going in.


KeeganKTK , I'll use diddy as an example because it also relates to what you asked. Yes, you can catch the banana, but any Diddy worth his salt isn't just throwing it at you. In a close game, Diddy simply walking up towards you holding a banana forces you to do something while having many options himself. Watch Zero fight Venom, he dashes away, shields, rolls away, etc etc many times when he has the banana, because Venom can't just assume he wont throw the banana and has to do some sort of reaction. Different choices by Zero mean different answers to his closeness work and don't work, that is the essence of the battle between the two. Ryu, on the other hand, has to be on top of someone to really start destroying him, although he does have a nice unreactable range that beats many options in the form of his dash grab. The dash grab is solid, but lacks the reward of other top tiers. So Ryu has to jump on your face with a very committal jump to start his strong punish game, which is why it can be so amazingly powerful without being imbalanced.


This is a simplified explanation, and might be flawed in some ways, but its just a basic look at how the banana is so strong even with a moderate reward and how Ryu can outpunish everyone and still struggle with the monkey.

 

[Yikarur]

This idea of Diddy just being consistent confuses me.
He has one if not the best kill confirm in the game.
The strongest defense in this game (best OoS Option, one of the best rolls, a command grab)

I don't really understand this paragraph:

Sure, Diddy has ridiculous things like dtilt which confirms into something at basically any percent including kills with smashes and aerials, fair walls out everything with a godlike autocancel and is pretty good for trades, monkey flip is a get out of disadvantage for almost free -card and an offensive mixup in neutral that's very difficult to react to, and he gets around 15% per grab without pummels all the way to triple digits and above. His uthrow uair 50:50 is also almost as good as what Sheik used to have, at least on fastfallers.

and then you proceed to

Yet, Diddy will never kill you below 100% unless you get daired offstage or fsmashed at the ledge (both of which you shouldn't) his aerial mobility and recovery are terrible for edgeguarding, and he doesn't have any particularly highly damaging combos.

First off. Diddys standard combo at low% banana upthrow double bair does about 30%. If he carries a Banane and you try to play neutral you will get hit of sideB a lot (which does 10% on it's own for the grab and 14%/12% for the kick)

Walk-Off Fast Fall DJ fair (or fair in general) is one of the strongest edgeguard moves in the game because it covers so much. You don't need to gimp or kill with your edgeguards if you get at least 30-40% if you get your opponent off-stage and trying to get back to neutral against Diddy is super hard because banana/monkey flip cover so many options.

You hit 100% so fast if the Diddy got momentum and then the dtilt upsmash terror begins. (if you didn't get banane fsmashed already, which is not always possible to avoid because banane -> foxtrot fsmash still connects)

Sheik has a better neutral, more damaging combos

Their neutral is about as good. They are clearly Top2 and they both have advantages the other one doesn't have.

Especially in a long bracket this translates to much less fatigue.

I think playing Sheik is the definition of fatigue. With Diddy you can just overwhelm your opponents and have one of the best kill confirms so you don't need to worry about that. His Frame 4 Dtilt is just something everyone wished they have in combination with that upsmash.

anyways, he wasn't saying Diddy is consistently overpowered... at all... he is saying he doesn't have the super strong trump card of other top tiers, instead he has consistency. So, uhh... pick one of those I guess.

his banana is a trump card alone. Maybe not the stock taking trump card like Cross Slash but Banana is the strongest out of shield option and you will get tons of damage and you will die because of it. Dtilt is his trump card to get consistent kills.

Yeah, Diddy's never killing below 100% unless he gets a spike. He trades burst strength for consistency. He really doesn't have super comeback powers like many other characters.

no comeback power? Diddy is probably the character that can completely avoid commitment if he wants to. If the Diddy doesn't overcommit there is hardly a hole to land a finish blow. If your character doesn't have a kill throw or a kill confirm out of a throw you will have problems getting a kill on Diddy. This means he profits from rage almost every stock and his fsmash has a above average base knockback, that means with rage it reaches critical knockback much earlier than you'd expect.
This is one of Diddy Kongs most dangerous traits and one of the reasons a lot of characters struggle fighting against Diddy. (Fair is another problem for a lot of characters)

It's weird that people try to undersell Diddy ):

 

[BunbUn129]

Also, let's not forget that Diddy's forward air, one of his best moves and a frequently used spacing option, can deal a solid 10% on its own. Diddy's weakness is in neither his damage racking nor in KO'ing later than most. Remember, guys, 1.1.4 Sheik was considered the indisputable best character and she KO'ed generally later than most top tiers.

Diddy's problems are his recovery and the fact that his banana, an important element of his neutral game, can be used against him. Recovery shouldn't be much of an issue if he can mix it up, which most good Diddy players will. And then banana counter-play is under-developed.

 

[DunnoBro]

Nah, mario's edgeguarding is definitely average. People think it's good because mario can set up edgeguards more than any other character with fludd. If his edgeguarding was better he'd honestly be busted. Imagine if luigi had fludd with dropzone cyclone.

Currently mario's main issues are:

Lack of frontal coverage
Lack of a full safe kill set-ups (Kill potental at mid percent is high but when both are at high percent he's below average)
Inconsistent neutral options (Fireball endlag, dair fallout, bair's unsafeness, etc)

Personally, I think the future of mario's meta lies on canceling fludd and using the charges to maintain positional pressure. My neutral with mario has never felt more efficient and I've noticed ally utilizes this now too.

Fludd's shield cancel frames are waaaaay more lenient than other shield cancelable moves, like peanut gun or pacfruit. To the point where you can't even safely grab mario from behind since he can cancel into usmash.

If he's top 10, it's gonna be through advancing the fludd and ledgeplay meta. His neutral is just too iffy otherwise.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Pacman9

ROB ceased being a decent character when his uthrow got nerfed. Now that it has been figured out how to survive the hoo-haa until very high percent the character has no options left that reliably kill before having dealt a considerable amount of damage. Since all of ROBs noteworthy combos are started with a grab both his options to land killing blows and to deal big time damage are severly limited and predictable. That's pretty bad for a character that is not very mobile, can't airdodge during his upB, has a big hurtbox and doesn't have a good disadvantaged state. He has an OK neutral-state to make up for that - a very good projectile with Gyro, a good grab game and pretty good tilts. That's certainly not enough to keep him relevant.

Who does ROB do well against? I can't think of a single top tier matchup where ROB doesn't look disadvantaged on paper. The best character I can see ROB doing decently against would be Mewtwo, maybe against Rosalina. Also, who truly struggles against ROB? He's one of the first non-terrible characters that comes to mind when I think of matchups that characters like Samus, Zelda and Ganondorf might be able to hold their own. When I look at ROB's weaknesses he's kinda looking like a less flexible version of DH, which is saying something given that character's [undeserved!] poor reputation in the USA.

 

[MVD]

Oh look, the moment DH starts getting alot of great placings MVD picks him back up LOL

I use him for 2 MUs, ryu is one of them

 

[DunnoBro]

Duck hunt is inconsistent by design. He's flexible the same way maining random is.

People are meant to fall out of his smashes, his recovery is meant to be ass, he can't even rely on the gunmen for consistency in neutral.

I had the most awkward explanation of this at xanadu during melee and I was playing smash 4, I got two black gunmen in a row (who doesn't shoot the can thus ****s up my whole neutral) and I shout "God I hate the blacks."

I don't go to xanadu wednesdays anymore.

 

[outfoxd]

You'd think if they gave DH an RNG factor at least one of the damm gunmen would kill, or something similar to Stitchface or Judgment 9.

 

[Radical Larry]

You'd think if they gave DH an RNG factor at least one of the damm gunmen would kill, or something similar to Stitchface or Judgment 9.

Then the problem would be the frame data. Fact of the matter is, is that none of the gunmen shoot fast enough, so even if it was given an RNG factor, the fact that none of the gunmen can consistently hit the opponent and can also get hit makes it to where your statement can be redundant. You'd be lucky to grab your opponent for that RNG factor to work.

Peach and Game and Watch both have frame data to attribute to Stitch Face and J9 to work, both during their hitboxes and startup. The Gunmen simply don't have that benefit.

 

[Trifroze]

it's hard to play the devil's advocate sometimes

Not to mention, it won't take upwards to 12 neutral wins for Diddy to get to kill percent with d-tilt grab b-airs doing upwards to 20, banana tosses thrown in, pummels. It won't be that many.

3 times 3 + 1 for the kill isn't 12, it's 10 (Diddy doesn't have to kill you 3 times per stock). If Diddy starts every neutral win with a banana and thus getting closer to 20% than 15% per conversion you are messing up.

First off. Diddys standard combo at low% banana upthrow double bair does about 30%. If he carries a Banane and you try to play neutral you will get hit of sideB a lot (which does 10% on it's own for the grab and 14%/12% for the kick)

You can airdodge the second bair if your percent is low enough to be in range for it in the first place. There might be a very slight window where it works, but it's hardly enough to call it a standard combo in my opinion. You will get hit by side b sometimes but not a lot, as the more often Diddy resorts to it, the more predictable it becomes and it's easily punishable by pivot grabs.

Walk-Off Fast Fall DJ fair (or fair in general) is one of the strongest edgeguard moves in the game because it covers so much. You don't need to gimp or kill with your edgeguards if you get at least 30-40% if you get your opponent off-stage and trying to get back to neutral against Diddy is super hard because banana/monkey flip cover so many options..

I disagree. It's a very linear edgeguard option that all half decent recoveries can straight up avoid because it always happens at the same area and he can hardly do anything else other than try to dtilt bad ledgesnaps. Diddy completely lacks aerial mobility without monkey flip so he isn't dynamic in his edgeguards and you can work around that.

I think playing Sheik is the definition of fatigue. With Diddy you can just overwhelm your opponents and have one of the best kill confirms so you don't need to worry about that. His Frame 4 Dtilt is just something everyone wished they have in combination with that upsmash.

Having to land a lot of hits doesn't always translate to fatigue when half of those hits are guaranteed follow ups from others, or practically guaranteed edgeguard damage. Sheik has out of the package conversions at low and mid percents even more than Diddy does, and I'd like to think Diddy players actually have to focus on their banana game to make it work.

There's obviously room for counterplay against a character like Diddy and nothing is achieved by merely stating how great he is.

 

[outfoxd]

Then the problem would be the frame data. Fact of the matter is, is that none of the gunmen shoot fast enough, so even if it was given an RNG factor, the fact that none of the gunmen can consistently hit the opponent and can also get hit makes it to where your statement can be redundant. You'd be lucky to grab your opponent for that RNG factor to work.

Peach and Game and Watch both have frame data to attribute to Stitch Face and J9 to work, both during their hitboxes and startup. The Gunmen simply don't have that benefit.

It's not so much the frame data as sheer volume and scare factor. People can get shot a lot against DH, and it would be a psychological benefit if the opponent was worried one of those bullets might mean a stock. Factor in that gunmen control a space independently of DHs own movement and it would be a benefit. I wouldn't necessarily need the bullet itself all the time.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Woah, I haven't been here in a bit, I just wanted to ask what characters in low tier could you see making the jump to mid tier this year? Just a question I'm wondering about

 

[HoSmash4]

A key thing that makes Diddy stand out from other top tiers, are that he has a wide range of guaranteed safe kill confirms and not 50/50 kill confirms which Sheik Fox Rosalina and a few others have. The other character with really strong kill confirms is ZSS and well Zero showed what Diddy does to ZSS' neutral. Oh and Ryu but Ryu's neutral and mobility is no where near as good. Plus Ryu has to commit more for his kill confirms.

Dtilt -> Smash
Banana to Smash
Are all 100% guaranteed kills (If they dont fall out, which happens only occasionally.)

 

[aεrgiα]

Woah, I haven't been here in a bit, I just wanted to ask what characters in low tier could you see making the jump to mid tier this year? Just a question I'm wondering about

depends, are you refering to the currently perceived low tiers or to the low tiers according to the 4br tier list? because ive got a lot more for the latter category but if you mean whats currently considered low tier, the biggest one, who is finally getting some recognition is palutena.
also, i know lots of people are going to disagree with me on this, but i think roy could also get him self out of that low tier status, yes he doesnt have a plethora of good moves, but hes got a select few which give him a functioning gameplan, and i think that gameplan is underappreciated
especially with ryo now putting in work with him im hoping his standing improves over the course of the year, but who knows, i may be completely wrong about roy

oh and also, i expect bayonetta to get out of low tier this year, when people realize that she still has moves outside of her specials

 

[Zelder]

Woah, I haven't been here in a bit, I just wanted to ask what characters in low tier could you see making the jump to mid tier this year? Just a question I'm wondering about

Going off the official tier list, I think I could see Mewtwo rising out of low tier.