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Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

D

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ZeRo actually thinks Charizard is better than Greninja.

In all seriousness; Charizard is not even bottom fifteen. Charizard can easily destroy a reckless Cloud by gimping him. Charizard may not have solid results but you really need to look into it; it has a fast running speed and people underestimate that down grab to forward air to even down air for a spike. He also has a great KO potential. But Zard can do nothing against a skilled Zero Suit Samus. I hope his results continue to increase so he can leave the cruel bottom fifteen.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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IIRC according to my local Wario Reflex doesn't play smash much anymore outside of going to things in his state (Georgia). So at a national level Gluttony is really the only Wario who is so dominant with a fairly average character. I know it's said often that Wario could probably be better than billed because of Gluttony but he honestly could be a top 25 player worldwide if he had an opportunity to travel more, Gluttony is absurdly good with just about any character he chooses and honestly he's the only currently that can play Wario like he does.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Zard is midish tier and Greninja is better than him imo.

If ESAM thinks he is bottom 10 oh well I can see why he could have that viewpoint.
 

Routa

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Here is the thing with Wario...
He is a bad character. His overall mobility is not high enough to balance out his lack of range, his damage output is mediocre at best, he has one of the worst set of hitboxes, he lacks killpower etc. Luigi at least has data and theory to place him that high. Wario lacks in every area.
Glutonny as a player is something els. He has shown to have top lvl fundamentals. Other reason why he does so well in Europe has to do with people still not understanding how to deal with Wario. People are too scared of him that they respect Wario too much in every situation when they should be rushing in and not give Wario any room to breath.

I don't know what to say other than Wario is truly horrible and a shadow of his former self. Only things he has going for himself is decent MUs against Mario, Luigi, Diddy and Rosa and great MUs against Kirby and Lucario.

Also there are other great Warios out there getting results like Snorley, Iota and Waymas.

And back to stalking this thread.
 
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Pyrover

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I'm sorry, but the character just can't be terrible. Footstool conversions give him, assuming he doesn't kill with it, upwards of fifty damage in a single combo, and most of his raw attacks do at least ten. Fifth best airspeed in the game with incredible weaving capabilities and the bike to assist in both recovery and landing says that his mobility is good enough to reach anywhere he needs to be quickly.

Wario can just outbutton people with short hop aerials because his "bad hitboxes" are tied to strong mobility and good frame data.

Killpower can't be lacking when he has waft, edgeguards, a Mario-esque up smash, bair, bike confirms, a decently strong F-tilt, and the second strongest forward throw in the game.

Perhaps I think better of the character than the average person here, but let's not go spreading misinformation and calling him terrible.

Saying Europe doesn't know how to fight him has to be wrong as well. Somebody can't be relatively dominant in a region for two years and have nobody adapting to it.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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Yeah if there is something Wario is lacking it's not mobility. Grounded sure but with his air speed and bike his weaving and air camping games are good, the reason why Lucario has so much trouble against Wario is because of that fact he can't catch him zipping all over the stage when combined with Plats and Bike. His horizontal hitboxes aren't good though, which requires him to commit when he has to approach in order to get them to hit, therefore you'll see Wario's opt to weave away and stay safer at the cost of more damage or pressure. This is why you generally see Wario's playing defensive and passive until waft builds as waft has many setups that all start working fairly early and fairly long. Gluttony' fundamentals and adaptation is just frankly that good you don't see very many other Wario's do what he does with his style for a reason. (Which isn't discrediting other Wario's they still put work in with their own styles).
 
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Routa

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Killpower can't be lacking when he has waft, edgeguards, a Mario-esque up smash, bair, bike confirms, a decently strong F-tilt, and the second strongest forward throw in the game.
Waft which comes every 1 min that is easy to miss and missing it means you have to wait another 1 min to kill. Or you wait about 2 mins to get the one that kills early and never get the opportunity to get the setup and you are stuck with rather slow killmove instead of frame 5 one that you can throw out in a reaction (which you willmiss majority of the time).
While his edgeguarding is great it is very unlikely that you manage to kill with your edgeguarding in the end due to how strong recovery is in this game.
Wario's Usmash comes out slower and has far higher endlag.
Bair has a hurtbox larger than hitbox so it will loose to pretty much everything.
Bike is slow to take out and extremely situational.
Ok the Ftilt one is true.
And getting grab with Wario is hard due to average ground mobility and bad grab range and framedata.

Saying Europe doesn't know how to fight him has to be wrong as well. Somebody can't be relatively dominant in a region for two years and have nobody adapting to it.
I suggest you to follow European scene more in that case.

And to the mobility part. The sad truth is that it isn't enough. His ability to weave in and out does not balance out his low damage output and lack of range. In Brawl it did, but not in Sm4sh.
 
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Laken64

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I'm sorry, but the character just can't be terrible. Footstool conversions give him, assuming he doesn't kill with it, upwards of fifty damage in a single combo, and most of his raw attacks do at least ten. Fifth best airspeed in the game with incredible weaving capabilities and the bike to assist in both recovery and landing says that his mobility is good enough to reach anywhere he needs to be quickly.

Wario can just outbutton people with short hop aerials because his "bad hitboxes" are tied to strong mobility and good frame data.

Killpower can't be lacking when he has waft, edgeguards, a Mario-esque up smash, bair, bike confirms, a decently strong F-tilt, and the second strongest forward throw in the game.

Perhaps I think better of the character than the average person here, but let's not go spreading misinformation and calling him terrible.

Saying Europe doesn't know how to fight him has to be wrong as well. Somebody can't be relatively dominant in a region for two years and have nobody adapting to it.
When you lose basically almost all the mus in top tier and one of them is certain to be in your bracket (:4cloud2:) any place you go, you have to come to the conclusion that the character you play is either limited, underdeveloped or just plain bad. You can have footstool combos and a clutch tool but if it doesn't negate or compansate (or over compansate) for the character's weaknesses then you're not going to be completely viable as a character.

One of the characters you were talking about :4luigi:has weaknesses including his traction, lack of landing moves, and a need to mash, but his strengths including the fastest dash grab in the game with one of the fastest CQC in the game, an amazing ground game and projectile and not to forget his explosive damage output off of grab and kill options Luigi's destructive strengths balances out his polarizing weaknesses. Not to mention his combos are super effective on fast fallers which is basically a huge majority of top tier keeping him in a relevant spot in the meta, which Wario doesn't have.

This was said before in the last thread but I'll say it for those who don't remember: "Gluttony is a player with top 10 fundamentals. Wario is bad. The end."
 
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Lord Dio

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upwards of fifty damage in a single combo
I can name off multiple characters who laugh at that, and most of them don't need footstools.
:4bayonetta::4falcon::4fox::4greninja::4luigi::4mario::4megaman::4metaknight::4ness::4feroy::4ryu::4sheik::4zss:
Funny thing is a good deal of them use ladder combos instead, which are proving to be infinitely more effective than footstool setups.
It's also not a "in the right hands" situation like it is with Glutonny. Any bayo player, sheik player, any player of these characters worht their money in skill can put out combos that are equal to or greater than Wario's in effectiveness.
Also just me making an obsermost of them are considered very good characters.
 
D

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Zard is midish tier and Greninja is better than him imo.

If ESAM thinks he is bottom 10 oh well I can see why he could have that viewpoint.
Greninja is better than Charizard and we all know it. I have no clue why ZeRo put Charizard higher in his tier list than Greninja. I can see his point of view on bottom ten, because he can get combo'd very hard. Especially ZSS and Bayonetta. Charizard is not even bottom fifteen.

Nah, Wario is pretty terrible.
Waft which comes every 1 min that is easy to miss and missing it means you have to wait another 1 min to kill. Or you wait about 2 mins to get the one that kills early and never get the opportunity to get the setup and you are stuck with rather slow killmove instead of frame 5 one that you can throw out in a reaction (which you willmiss majority of the time).
While his edgeguarding is great it is very unlikely that you manage to kill with your edgeguarding in the end due to how strong recovery is in this game.
Wario's Usmash comes out slower and has far higher endlag.
Bair has a hurtbox larger than hitbox so it will loose to pretty much everything.
Bike is slow to take out and extremely situational.
Ok the Ftilt one is true.
And getting grab with Wario is hard due to average ground mobility and bad grab range and framedata.


I suggest you to follow European scene more in that case.

And to the mobility part. The sad truth is that it isn't enough. His ability to weave in and out does not balance out his low damage output and lack of range. In Brawl it did, but not in Sm4sh.
And do not forget his down b nerfs. His recovery now has slightly more distance and less kill power. And you are right about it missing, because if you are missed prepare for some spicy combos or grabs on Wario's face. Wario is personally is a character in E tier ( bottom of mid tier ).
 
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Lord Dio

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Have any of you seen Glutonny's matchup chart?

That........is not the mu chart of a mid tier. Or a high tier.
someone get this man to the states already.
 

Minordeth

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Wario is not good.

Besides being a good player, Gluttony probably has the most consistent mechanical execution skills in the game, though.

He’s like Esam, but playing a worse character.
 

Baby_Sneak

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more like, he understands wario like he went to college for 5 years just to study him and him alone.

geez guys, it's not just "wario is bad, gluttony is godlike. the end."

It takes more than general godlike fundamentals and execution skills to get a "terrible" character to excel like he does.

some people really click with another character, and yes, those people that succeed like he does, have godlike fundamentals and execution skills, but it's not like he could switch to someone else and instantly do the same damage he does with wario.

his success is just a combo of amazing fundamentals, amazing execution, and a TOOOOOON of intricate wario knowledge and understanding, and knowledge of how to operate in his MUs. Just watch how seamless and sudden he sees footstool combos. Correct my knowledge, but does any other top player do that? maybe it's really a wario-specific thing to catch footstools out the blue like him.

gluttony is sooo used to wario and his "system" that he can play like without virtually any clunkiness, and he can respond to different stimuli very quickly.

I don't want to sound like some fanboy, but I just really like how well he uses wario. He doesn't just use the fundamentals and try to play safe, he really really studies ware's everything, on top of having really good fundamentals, and on top of having an amazing adaption skill.
 

Rizen

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wario's better than low tiers. he has waft with setups, weight, recovery and mobility all keeping him in mid tier. if nothing else he can tank. and he has some other things going for him, albeit weak. the problem is he fell victim to DLC and the power creep super hard. his advantages vs bad characters lessened, some characters like marth and mewtwo shot above him from buffs and bad weather rolled into top tier.

/sry for lack of caps, hand problems
 

Baby_Sneak

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speaking of gluttony,


why don't we discuss this real quick and try to analyze this?

and DENFIOBF23U;DB3I4FVUVDB GLUTONNY IS SOOOOOO GOOOOOOOOOOD

watching this made me realize just how confusing MUs can be. You can't tell whether it's the player or the character giving you the most problems. some made watch this and think it's sonic's speed and amazing coverage with spin dash and lingering Bairs that give wario trouble, until gluttony adapts and does something different. I think that goes for every MU almost. We'll tend to think it's a character v character issue when it could just be a "player messing you up and you need to adapt" issue.

I also been sleeping a bit on KEN too, so seeing him do move like that made me think on the varies ways people become one with their character. It's like people working out and really healthy; some just stick to the fundamentals (just a nice build all-around), while others apply all the tech to stand out (Mr. Olympia, or bodybuilding contest for those who don't know).
 
D

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Have any of you seen Glutonny's matchup chart?

I was waiting to say this. Before you say "Wah Wario looks like a top tier this matchup spread stinks" this is how Gluttony feels about fighting other characters, not Wario's overall agreed upon match ups with the rest of the rosters.

A more detailed but easier way you can say it is: It is his experience on how well he does when fighting other people with those characters. He is not saying that Wario ( as a whole ) actually can take on everyone except for three characters finely.
 
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Blue Banana

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The reason DLC didn't kill Olimar is because he maintained good matchups with the DLC. Mewtwo and kind of Corrin are problems, but he goes even with Bayo, Cloud, Lucas, and Roy while having a slight edge against Ryu.
I know the discussion has come and gone on Olimar, but just want to say that most top Olimar players from the Oli discord consider Corn to be one of the worst matchups he has, other than Fox, and that opinions on the Ryu MU range from even to slight disadvantage
 

Rizen

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speaking of gluttony,


why don't we discuss this real quick and try to analyze this?

and DENFIOBF23U;DB3I4FVUVDB GLUTONNY IS SOOOOOO GOOOOOOOOOOD

watching this made me realize just how confusing MUs can be. You can't tell whether it's the player or the character giving you the most problems. some made watch this and think it's sonic's speed and amazing coverage with spin dash and lingering Bairs that give wario trouble, until gluttony adapts and does something different. I think that goes for every MU almost. We'll tend to think it's a character v character issue when it could just be a "player messing you up and you need to adapt" issue.

I also been sleeping a bit on KEN too, so seeing him do move like that made me think on the varies ways people become one with their character. It's like people working out and really healthy; some just stick to the fundamentals (just a nice build all-around), while others apply all the tech to stand out (Mr. Olympia, or bodybuilding contest for those who don't know).
Gluttony is amazing but it all comes back to what i said earlier: mobility, recovery, weight, waft- wario can tank. game 1 is the perfect example of that; gluttony is losing then gets a full rage setup and bam! he has the stock lead from a 50%ish kill confirm. wario was weaving around sonic of all characters and surviving kill moves like bthrow at 140%ish. waft also has great coverage all around wario as seen in game 2 when sonic tried to ladder him.

no way is wario low tier. imo his current placement feels right- lower mid tier.
 
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Myollnir

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As someone that plays quite often with Glutonny, I do think that Wario is a terrible character (like bottom of lower mid tier) and I'm pretty sure he would be doing better if he used a top tier character.

He's been training DK & Cloud, but they're not remotely close to his Wario. And even then, I'm more scared of Cloud than I am of his Wario, because I know the match-up at this point and I can abuse his glaring weaknesses (range, reliance on set ups / missed techs).

Routa Routa said something very true :
Glutonny as a player is something els. He has shown to have top lvl fundamentals. Other reason why he does so well in Europe has to do with people still not understanding how to deal with Wario. People are too scared of him that they respect Wario too much in every situation when they should be rushing in and not give Wario any room to breath.
Glutonny is EXTREMELY good at Smash, but his character is really bad. Not as bad as low tiers, but still preventing him from dominating. And even with Wario he still manages to gather some great results. Truly inspiring.
 

MERPIS

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speaking of gluttony,


why don't we discuss this real quick and try to analyze this?

and DENFIOBF23U;DB3I4FVUVDB GLUTONNY IS SOOOOOO GOOOOOOOOOOD

watching this made me realize just how confusing MUs can be. You can't tell whether it's the player or the character giving you the most problems. some made watch this and think it's sonic's speed and amazing coverage with spin dash and lingering Bairs that give wario trouble, until gluttony adapts and does something different. I think that goes for every MU almost. We'll tend to think it's a character v character issue when it could just be a "player messing you up and you need to adapt" issue.

I also been sleeping a bit on KEN too, so seeing him do move like that made me think on the varies ways people become one with their character. It's like people working out and really healthy; some just stick to the fundamentals (just a nice build all-around), while others apply all the tech to stand out (Mr. Olympia, or bodybuilding contest for those who don't know).
KEN is the entire reason why Sonic is so insanely good now, top (6) results, top 5 MU spread, really high placements in even S+ tier tournaments, practically living in top 8s now. Decimating Nairo, Mr. R, MKLeo's Cloud, or Dabuz pretty much any time they meet in a tournament. he just needs to work on his gameplan for Zero and Salem and he'll be golden.
 

Nemesis561

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Wario has the mobility specs and attributes to be a pretty good character overall. His aerial mobility is awesome, and even though his ground game isn’t great he gets a lot out of using RTC (run turnaround cancel) options to bait the opponent into doing something and then punishing accordingly. If Wario had some big silly hitboxes like a lot of other characters in this game do.... he legitimately would be a problem, because his mobility specifically in the air is that good.

But his hitboxes are a joke, some of his moves are the opposite of disjointed (IDK what the term for that would be called) where the hitboxes are inside of his hurt box so he has negative range in a sense. You think Mario struggles with range issues? Wario is worst.

Glutonny is the giant exception to the rule, he is a godlike player. Yes, Wario does have access to some super early kill setups through footstools BUT Glutonny is a machine when it comes to this. No other Wario players can pull it off like him as consistently, not even close. Somebody else brought up ESAM and I think that’s a fair comparison. No other Pikachus do what he does. None of them get the jab locks as consistently as him because they’re not at that level. ESAM has been playing Pika for many years since brawl and Glutonny has been playing Wario since Brawl as well
 
D

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Does Gluttony have the qualities and traits of a top fifteen player? Just curious. I hope Gluttony gets better results so Wario mains can rejoice as Wario rises higher into the tier list. I hear a lot of people saying the problem is that Wario is a bad character. Think about Axe; Pikachu was almost non existent untill Axe introduced Pikachu in Melee and he is considered a top ten player. Pikachu is now ( Editing mistake! ) the ninth best character in Melee because of Axe. I am not saying Wario will rise to top or high tier if Gluttony's results increase much more, but if anyone could boost Wario's results and make him rise in the tier list; it is him. Lets all cheer for Gluttony.
 
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Ziodyne 21

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One of my personal dream matches in thid is Raito vs Gluttony. Two players that play absolutely incredible with pretty weak characters overall and actullay gets results with them. Most people agree Raito and Gluttohly have top-tier fundamental games and would have been better sucess if they used a better character.
 
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Nemesis561

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Does Gluttony have the qualities and traits of a top fifteen player? Just curious. I hope Gluttony gets better results so Wario mains can rejoice as Wario rises higher into the tier list. I hear a lot of people saying the problem is that Wario is a bad character. Think about Axe; Pikachu was almost non existent untill Axe introduced Pikachu in Melee and he is considered a top ten player. Pikachu is not the ninth best character in Melee because of Axe. I am not saying Wario will rise to top or high tier if Gluttony's results increase much more, but if anyone could boost Wario's results and make him rise in the tier list; it is him. Lets all cheer for Gluttony.
It’s interesting to think about. In theory, you would think that if such a great player like Glutonny decided that he was going to drop Wario and pick up Cloud for example, that he would skyrocket in terms of results because that just seems like common sense. For example, Tweek went from a very good player with good results with Bowser jr into a top 5 player and a threat to win super majors. This just makes sense, you take a player capable of so much with an awful character and give him a character like Cloud and his results should get significantally better.

But sometimes players just fit a certain character regardless of position on a tier list, like Baby Sneak alluded to earlier. I just really hope he can come to America and make waves like you mentioned, because then we could possibly learn more about Wario overall.
 

TimG57867

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Somebody else brought up ESAM and I think that’s a fair comparison. No other Pikachus do what he does. None of them get the jab locks as consistently as him because they’re not at that level. ESAM has been playing Pika for many years since brawl and Glutonny has been playing Wario since Brawl as well
This is actually a very interesting point. An important aspect the tier list needs to reflect is how well in a tournament can the average person expect to do in a reasonably competitive tourney should they pick this character? Strong fundamentals and tech skill can only take you so far. With some characters you really have to take the time to understand their playstyle, physics, hitboxes, matchups, etc. Many characters aren't like:4mario: who you can make tournament viable in a relatively short time. Some need quite a bit of work to really get good with them there lies a problem: opportunity cost.

Only a select few players have proven the ability to be equally devastating with a 3 or more characters. When you decide to pick a character to main, you are forgoing main-ing a different one which could potentially get you better results for the time you put in. And depending on the character, it could hinder your ability to use a secondary or tertiary efficiently. Characters like :4greninja: often get a bad rep for being super technical and tough to use (however true that may be). But as results from multiple players in multiple reasons have been showing, any effort it takes to play Greninja can be well worth it, even with popular top tier/high tier choices that have well established metagames. But can one as easily say the same for :4wario:? If I were to put in the time get really good with him, would I be able achieve the same level results on a regular basis as someone who picked a more straightforward/dominant top/high tier character? For Gluttony that's obviously a yes. But for someone getting into competitive Smash through SSB4 and is trying to get into competitive? Well...the results and theory don't bode too well. Gluttony shows that it's POSSIBLE to do great things with Wario. But potential alone can't boost a character's position in the metagame. Feasibility into tapping into a character's potential is just as crucial as the potential itself which is why characters like :4cloud2:, :4sonic:, :4bayonetta:, :4diddy:, :4sheik:and more have been able to dominate. Not only do they all have lots of much potential, but it's been proven that people can reasonably access that potential too. It should be noted that many of the players who do great with the current top and high tiers only began maining them in this game (or at least didn't use them in Brawl). Just look at all the players who started taking names the moment Bayonetta and Cloud were introduced. Not every person interested in playing Pikachu or Wario in this game put tons of hours into them in Brawl thus already have an intuitive feel for the character. On top of that, these characters have bang for their buck too. I am sure many of the current top and high level players could pick up mid, low, and bottom tiers and do cool stuff with them. But why should they when they already can use characters that are widely proven to be stronger overall to greater effect? I am sure Nairo could whack some fools with :4zelda: again if he put in the time, but why should he when :4zss: and :4bowser: can offer so much more for the same amount of effort (or less)?

The sad reality is that the average competitive player isn't like ESAM, Gluttony, John Numbers, Sinji, etc. who can get a natural feel for otherwise would be modest or mediocre characters and elevate them to heights people would never expect or are willing to put every ounce of effort they can push characters considered bad to a potent level. Many players getting into competitive want to pick a character that they feel will be worth their time and won't hold them back. Not everyone can be metagame innovators. Nor will they be so synergized with a character that they end up doing worse with someone theoretically better. And as Tweek and :4bowserjr: show, that's not always the case with successful mid/low/botttom tier mains.

:4pikachu: has already shown us how a character's position in a tier list can be affected by this issue. Back when the game was younger and ESAM stood along with many others on an echelon few players could match, it was easy to paint Pikachu is as a Top 5 pick. But as time went on, and players found success with other characters in greater quantity, Pikachu fell behind his former top tier brethren who were able to regularly achieve top and high level success with more than 1 potent main and he's gone from #5 to #15 (which to be fair is still good in a game this massive but it's been a noticeable drop and who's to say it won't continue?). ESAM has never failed to show Pikachu's potential. But Pikachu has never attained the feasibility necessary to keep a character's metagame healthy and I feel Wario's in a similar boat. Gluttony shows us that Wario HAS the potential to do great things. But unless Wario starts to develop into a character whose strengths can be feasibly attained by more players, I can't see his position improving too much.

TL:DR = Gluttony shows that:4wario2: has potential, but he is where he currently is because it's too difficult or not practical for the average player to actually tap into it.
 

Nemesis561

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This is actually a very interesting point. An important aspect the tier list needs to reflect is how well in a tournament can the average person expect to do in a reasonably competitive tourney should they pick this character? Strong fundamentals and tech skill can only take you so far. With some characters you really have to take the time to understand their playstyle, physics, hitboxes, matchups, etc. Many characters aren't like:4mario: who you can make tournament viable in a relatively short time. Some need quite a bit of work to really get good with them there lies a problem: opportunity cost.

Only a select few players have proven the ability to be equally devastating with a 3 or more characters. When you decide to pick a character to main, you are forgoing main-ing a different one which could potentially get you better results for the time you put in. And depending on the character, it could hinder your ability to use a secondary or tertiary efficiently. Characters like :4greninja: often get a bad rep for being super technical and tough to use (however true that may be). But as results from multiple players in multiple reasons have been showing, any effort it takes to play Greninja can be well worth it, even with popular top tier/high tier choices that have well established metagames. But can one as easily say the same for :4wario:? If I were to put in the time get really good with him, would I be able achieve the same level results on a regular basis as someone who picked a more straightforward/dominant top/high tier character? For Gluttony that's obviously a yes. But for someone getting into competitive Smash through SSB4 and is trying to get into competitive? Well...the results and theory don't bode too well. Gluttony shows that it's POSSIBLE to do great things with Wario. But potential alone can't boost a character's position in the metagame. Feasibility into tapping into a character's potential is just as crucial as the potential itself which is why characters like :4cloud2:, :4sonic:, :4bayonetta:, :4diddy:, :4sheik:and more have been able to dominate. Not only do they all have lots of much potential, but it's been proven that people can reasonably access that potential too. It should be noted that many of the players who do great with the current top and high tiers only began maining them in this game (or at least didn't use them in Brawl). Just look at all the players who started taking names the moment Bayonetta and Cloud were introduced. Not every person interested in playing Pikachu or Wario in this game put tons of hours into them in Brawl thus already have an intuitive feel for the character. On top of that, these characters have bang for their buck too. I am sure many of the current top and high level players could pick up mid, low, and bottom tiers and do cool stuff with them. But why should they when they already can use characters that are widely proven to be stronger overall to greater effect? I am sure Nairo could whack some fools with :4zelda: again if he put in the time, but why should he when :4zss: and :4bowser: can offer so much more for the same amount of effort (or less)?

The sad reality is that the average competitive player isn't like ESAM, Gluttony, John Numbers, Sinji, etc. who can get a natural feel for otherwise would be modest or mediocre characters and elevate them to heights people would never expect or are willing to put every ounce of effort they can push characters considered bad to a potent level. Many players getting into competitive want to pick a character that they feel will be worth their time and won't hold them back. Not everyone can be metagame innovators. Nor will they be so synergized with a character that they end up doing worse with someone theoretically better. And as Tweek and :4bowserjr: show, that's not always the case with successful mid/low/botttom tier mains.

:4pikachu: has already shown us how a character's position in a tier list can be affected by this issue. Back when the game was younger and ESAM stood along with many others on an echelon few players could match, it was easy to paint Pikachu is as a Top 5 pick. But as time went on, and players found success with other characters in greater quantity, Pikachu fell behind his former top tier brethren who were able to regularly achieve top and high level success with more than 1 potent main and he's gone from #5 to #15 (which to be fair is still good in a game this massive but it's been a noticeable drop and who's to say it won't continue?). ESAM has never failed to show Pikachu's potential. But Pikachu has never attained the feasibility necessary to keep a character's metagame healthy and I feel Wario's in a similar boat. Gluttony shows us that Wario HAS the potential to do great things. But unless Wario starts to develop into a character whose strengths can be feasibly attained by more players, I can't see his position improving too much.

TL:DR = Gluttony shows that:4wario2: has potential, but he is where he currently is because it's too difficult or not practical for the average player to actually tap into it.
This is a really good post. The fact of the matter is, many characters have potential. But some characters need to be piloted by a top tier echelon player to extract enough out of that character to compete with some of the other characters in this game.

Let’s be real, just using this as an example, if Nairo mained Zelda from the beginning of the release of smash 4 up until now, we would have a much higher opinion of Zelda overall than we do now. Now does that mean we would think Zelda is good? No, it’s obvious she is an extremely flawed character. Obviously we would know that Nairos skill is the reason for him doing well, not because Zelda is some secret high tier. But the small bits of potential she possesses would be on full display for us to watch at a high caliber level of play, and therefore we would know Zelda “is capable” of doing well. I’m kind of rambling I hope that makes sense lol
 

Nathan Richardson

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Either way I'm supicious of Zard being mid tier. He needs his own Gluttony/Elegant/Fatality, etc.
As a zard main I don't think zard can break out of his current ranking until players can take advantage of zard's ability to either ground camp with his excellent dash speed combined with flamethrower, or gimp with his dair or flamethrower. Zard's gimping ability is part of the reason he can go toe-to-toe with Cloud despite being a lower tier. The thing holding him back is pitiful air mobility, lack of traction and super fast buttons, and being combo food like most heavies. If he had a hoo-hah like bowser he'd be a legitimate threat. As it stands I find his use to be trashing low to mid-skilled clouds who don't know how to force zard into the air or keep approaching zard unnecessarily.
 

bc1910

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Have any of you seen Glutonny's matchup chart?

Why are people taking this at all seriously?

Gluttony plainly stated it’s an EU Wario MU chart, meaning his own personal MU chart for a region where competition is of a far lower average level than the US (or Japan). He even said the chart could change based on playing with US players.

This wasn’t meant as a proper attempt at a Wario MU chart.
 
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D

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Why are people taking this at all seriously?

Gluttony plainly stated it’s an EU Wario MU chart, meaning his own personal MU chart for a region where competition is of a far lower average level than the US (or Japan). He even said the chart could change based on playing with US players.

This wasn’t meant as a proper attempt at a Wario MU chart.
You said it better than I did :p, charts like these are not Wario's full match up chart. The match up chart actually implies that Gluttony is a talented player because doing fine with all of the cast except for three is actually really good. He can be the one to make Wario rise from bottom fifteen.
Can you stop responding to things with "Opinion, m8"? How about you actually explain why you think it's a bad point instead of just saying "that's just your opinion"?
I agree with this, in an analysis thread it is essential to give out thought out explanations and why you think this. I seek knowledge in this thread, research that is more than one sentence long and ready to show for the whole users in this thread to enjoy or to seep in themselves.

Opinion, m8.

Cliche as it may be.
The worst part is KakuCP9 KakuCP9 told you this a while back and it had a ton of support. Even a moderator ( |RK| |RK| ) told you to make your posts more substantial in the future. And you just shrug these warnings like they are not important to you. When it comes to a competitive thread that requires analysis, do what the directions imply you to do. Not to be a grouch or anything but everyone in this thread posting searches for good knowledge and feedback instead of one - liners.

I am not trying to harass you I just want to express everyone's concerns including mine.

( EDIT: I think I have taken this a bit too far. ).
 
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|RK|

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No backseat modding either.

Just click the report button. He's already been warned in this case so no need to dwell on a throwaway comment.
 

MERPIS

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Can you stop responding to things with "Opinion, m8"? How about you actually explain why you think it's a bad point instead of just saying "that's just your opinion"?
Well teeeeeeeechnically it IS just his opinion, we all have opinions. They are subjective.So he isn't wasting posts completely
Now for the meat and potate of this here post: What is the general consensus on the Olimar vs Mario and Olimar vs Bayonetta MUs? What should I watch out for and what can I exploit as Olimar?
 

KakuCP9

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What exactly makes EU weaker on average than US or Japan even though some pretty amazing players hail from there?
 

Pyrover

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VS Mario:

Caped F-Smash can kill you as low as forty depending on if you sweet spot yourself, so besmindful of that, but unafraid. Mario should always have to guess whether you're going to smash or grab at max range. Trap landings hard since he has no way to mix you up. Don't be afraid to throw Pikmin because you can just whistle to remove anything that gets caped. When you have a purple, use short hops to mix up side B's and fair timings. Always DI away from him because of your low weight. Don't challenge his aerials unnecessarily because you won't win unless it's his fair.

Anytime he dairs with a Pikmin on you should punish that. He won't do it often if he knows the matchup though. Pretty much just use your grounded options to force jumps and stay outside his burst range. As long a second you catch his landings it's easy enough. Just be wary of his cape and grab combos. Mario doesn't have anything too threatening.

Just try not to play on ledge too much because I think Mario has a guarenteed down throw fair setup on you at 60-ish percent.

VS Bayo:

You fall out of combos easily so take full advantage of that. Attached Pikmin lag her Witch Twists and held aerials like crazy, so you can honestly punish those if you're fast. Offstage you can't afford to get caught so don't be scared to throw all your Pikmin at her and fly under the stage. Latched Pikmin will stall her twists to make chasing you harder and you're quite fast without any passengers.

Attached Pikmin CAN trigger Witch Time if you're in range of her; the range is about equal to your f-smash. You can spotdodge or roll if you read this and she'll extend your invincibility, but it's less than perfect. Air to air you can actually contest her, primarily with fair and up air.

Use up throw combos at lower percentages to maximize damage. Kill her as quickly as possible, either with purple smashes or your kill confirm. Landing nair --> F-Smash also works very well against her around 90% for a kill.

Get as many Purple Pikmin as you can. She can't do anything about their side b in neutral and using their smashes to punish her landing lag can kill her at stupid percents. Get under her and shield whenever she's about to land. If she lands with lag, punish hard with a purple. If she uses Witch Time on landing, you shielded and can still punish.

The key thing is to know that you beat her in neutral and can punish her usually safe options with a latched Pikmin. Get good at escaping from combos and you'll kill her earlier too. The only thing that keeps this out of Olimar's favor is the fact that he gets eviscerated offstage sometimes.
 
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