Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Finh009]

Lickey is a Meta Knight, not Pacman, and I'm not sure if Selcia still uses MK too or is a full-time Cloud now.

My bad. I knew Lickey played Meta Knight, I don't know why I put Pacman.

Also I haven't Selcia's Meta Knight in ages.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Sumabato 24 (233 Entrants) (Kansai, Japan)
Bracket: https://challonge.com/Sumabato24T

1st. HIKARU
2nd. Masashi
3rd. takera
4th. Hakadama
5th. 2GG | Komorikiri
5th. Eim
7th. bt.yamato
7th. bAhuto

Spoiler: Rest of Top 16

9th. Yuzu
9th. Tea
9th. Zaki
9th. Lickey★
13th. Taiheita
13th. Shogun
13th. Selcia
13th. Kisha

A Dedede getting top 16, and a Lucas (that isn't Taiheita) and a Little Mac in top 8? That was an interesting tournament.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

A Dedede getting top 16, and a Lucas (that isn't Taiheita) and a Little Mac in top 8? That was an interesting tournament.

Zeke's Dedede is godlike, he beat Wadi's Mewtwo. Hes definitely a prodigy for Dedede players.

 

[Jaguar360]

Zeke's Dedede is godlike, he beat Wadi's Mewtwo. Hes definitely a prodigy for Dedede players.

That was Whiteout from San Antonio, Texas.

SML: Battle for Vegas (165 entrants) (A Tier)

PGR'ed Players
Salem
Nairo
MKLeo
Tweek
Larry Lurr
VoiD
Mistake
Ally
Cosmos
Captain Zack
Konga
Charliedaking
Fatality
falln
Light
K9sbruce
AC

Notable, Not PGR'ed, Players
Eon
FOW
Karna
Captain L
Xzax
BestNess
Mr. ConCon
Brosinex
Z
S2H
Dynamo
pu55yking
Illusion
Taternator
Kiraflax
ven
AEMehr

That's a different Illusion at this tournament.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

That was Whiteout from San Antonio, Texas.

That's a different Illusion at this tournament.

Greninja players are far and few between, good to see him used more in tournament. Whiteout vs Wadi was insane, Wadi didn't really know the matchup too well. Plus, whiteout played solidly.

 

[Iridium]

Sumabato 24 (233 Entrants) (Kansai, Japan)
Bracket: https://challonge.com/Sumabato24T

1st. HIKARU
2nd. Masashi
3rd. takera
4th. Hakadama
5th. 2GG | Komorikiri
5th. Eim
7th. bt.yamato
7th. bAhuto

Spoiler: Rest of Top 16

9th. Yuzu
9th. Tea
9th. Zaki
9th. Lickey★
13th. Taiheita
13th. Shogun
13th. Selcia
13th. Kisha

Raito didn't do too hot, and got 65th, double-eliminated by Mario (Tatsutsuyo and Rushu). How exactly does this matchup play to you guys?

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Raito didn't do too hot, and got 65th, double-eliminated by Mario (Tatsutsuyo and Rushu). How exactly does this matchup play to you guys?

Mario has better options than duck hunt and can cape his projectiles. Overall, Mario can break duck hunts zone making it hard for him to set up.

 

[Iridium]

Mario has better options than duck hunt and can cape his projectiles. Overall, Mario can break duck hunts zone making it hard for him to set up.

I guess I can see that. But is it possible for any of Duck Hunt's non-projectile moves to possibly act as disjoints, like F-air and B-air, to help a little bit?

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

I guess I can see that. But is it possible for any of Duck Hunt's non-projectile moves to possibly act as disjoints, like F-air and B-air, to help a little bit?

Mmhmm, fair and bair outrange Mario and allow dunk hunt to maintain a safe distance. Killing is a problem for duck hunt as he generally has to have a ko setup ready.

 

[Rizen]

Sumabato 24 (233 Entrants) (Kansai, Japan)
Bracket: https://challonge.com/Sumabato24T

7th. bt.yamato

No one's going to mention the Mac attack?

I personally find Fox, Diddy, ZSS, and Mewtwo closer to even than -1. Every single Link finds these MU's different. And for bombs at ledge, yeah, if they already grabbed ledge, a bomb pull is just letting them back up.

I agree Mewtwo and ZSS are about even. has good tool interactions in those MUs.
Vs , Link out-disjoints him and grab and Zair beat his reach. Mewtwo is a monster at zoning with things like Dtilt that can be hard for characters with poor reach to deal with but Link doesn't have to worry about that nearly as much. Mewtwo is extremely vulnerable to Link's Dthrow combos until high %s; he gets Usmashed at 0% and Uaired at 80%.

I went over but a lot of it relies on Link's grab being better than her's. Link may have good shield safety but still gets OoS grabbed and punished for bad spacing in MUs by normal grabs. But her grab is f16. He doesn't have to worry about being rush grabbed like vs Sheik/fox/etc. His projectiles out-zone ZSS' mid-range game and paralyzer, which is one of her strong points.

In both the above cases, Link is generally undertuned and the opponents have top tier options like Mewtwo's kill/throw game and ZSS' combos/ladders so he doesn't win.

Vs , IMO it's -1. Link has a good answer to Diddy's ground banana game, since bombs cancel them, but Diddy is quicker with much less commitment. Diddy can burst in and punish hard enough to more than make up for Link's weight and power advantages. Diddy's neutral is so good he goes even with Bayo :/

_______

The more I play the MU the more I think it being decent for Link is a myth, based on T being great at making good calls. Fox has always been terrible for Link in every game and nothing has changed that. The gap is smaller in SSB4 but it's still one of his worst. I know I said it's -1 earlier but played it Thursday and am revising it to -1.5.

Fox's reflector means Link can't simply play keep away with projectiles, even though reflected projectiles aren't a big concern. So Link is forced to play footsies with Fox and Fox has the strongest burst game of the cast imo. Link has always been weak to small characters because they're harder to wall and Fox is one. It ends up being a guessing game where Fox has much less commitment, an amazing punish game with vortexes, setups like Dair, and he's more than twice as fast as Link. Link's moves all have heavy commitment both in windup and end lag. Fox can patiently play outside Link's melee range and burst in for huge rewards. Killing is not a problem for Fox but Link has to venture within Fox's CQC range to kill and Fox wins that game.

At least now Link has a better recovery and Dthrow combos. Link can win but must make the right calls and outplay Fox hard to do so.

 

[Minordeth]

Duck Hunt does fine against Mario. Duck Hunt doesn’t care as much about reflectors as he does fast zone breakers and characters that can bypass his gameplan. Like Sheik. Or Bayo.

People forget that Duck Hunt is really quite mobile and has a strong grab game. Mario doesn’t quite have the mobility to overwhelm Duck Hunt and navigate his minefield of set ups. I don’t see it as worse than even, and neither do the Japanese Duck Hunts.

I didn’t see his losses, but Raito was going Marth in pools, fwiw.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Duck Hunt does fine against Mario. Duck Hunt doesn’t care as much about reflectors as he does fast zone breakers and characters that can bypass his gameplan. Like Sheik. Or Bayo.

People forget that Duck Hunt is really quite mobile and has a strong grab game. Mario doesn’t quite have the mobility to overwhelm Duck Hunt and navigate his minefield of set ups. I don’t see it as worse than even, and neither do the Japanese Duck Hunts.

I didn’t see his losses, but Raito was going Marth in pools, fwiw.

How is Duck Hunt's grab good?

Also Collision XV (the tourney next week) has upgraded to be a B Tier event.

 

[Yonder]

How is Duck Hunt's grab good?

Also Collision XV (the tourney next week) has upgraded to be a B Tier event.

DH's grab leads to a free can (if you know how to throw the opponent like Raito), sets up into damage at low-med percents. Has decent enough standing frame data. I think it constitutes as good at least.

 

[Nobie]

DH's grab leads to a free can (if you know how to throw the opponent like Raito), sets up into damage at low-med percents. Has decent enough standing frame data. I think it constitutes as good at least.

Also, that pivot grab range

 

[The_Bookworm]

Also, that pivot grab range

And I was thought Ness's pivot grab was unusually disjointed. OML

 

[ぱみゅ]

Raito didn't do too hot, and got 65th, double-eliminated by Mario (Tatsutsuyo and Rushu). How exactly does this matchup play to you guys?

Tatsutsuyo is a former Duckhunt.
And Raito already qualified for the 8-man bracket to be played after that, so he went full Marth.

 

[WiFi]

No one's going to mention the Mac attack?


I agree Mewtwo and ZSS are about even. has good tool interactions in those MUs.
Vs , Link out-disjoints him and grab and Zair beat his reach. Mewtwo is a monster at zoning with things like Dtilt that can be hard for characters with poor reach to deal with but Link doesn't have to worry about that nearly as much. Mewtwo is extremely vulnerable to Link's Dthrow combos until high %s; he gets Usmashed at 0% and Uaired at 80%.

I went over but a lot of it relies on Link's grab being better than her's. Link may have good shield safety but still gets OoS grabbed and punished for bad spacing in MUs by normal grabs. But her grab is f16. He doesn't have to worry about being rush grabbed like vs Sheik/fox/etc. His projectiles out-zone ZSS' mid-range game and paralyzer, which is one of her strong points.

In both the above cases, Link is generally undertuned and the opponents have top tier options like Mewtwo's kill/throw game and ZSS' combos/ladders so he doesn't win.

Vs , IMO it's -1. Link has a good answer to Diddy's ground banana game, since bombs cancel them, but Diddy is quicker with much less commitment. Diddy can burst in and punish hard enough to more than make up for Link's weight and power advantages. Diddy's neutral is so good he goes even with Bayo :/

_______

The more I play the MU the more I think it being decent for Link is a myth, based on T being great at making good calls. Fox has always been terrible for Link in every game and nothing has changed that. The gap is smaller in SSB4 but it's still one of his worst. I know I said it's -1 earlier but played it Thursday and am revising it to -1.5.

Fox's reflector means Link can't simply play keep away with projectiles, even though reflected projectiles aren't a big concern. So Link is forced to play footsies with Fox and Fox has the strongest burst game of the cast imo. Link has always been weak to small characters because they're harder to wall and Fox is one. It ends up being a guessing game where Fox has much less commitment, an amazing punish game with vortexes, setups like Dair, and he's more than twice as fast as Link. Link's moves all have heavy commitment both in windup and end lag. Fox can patiently play outside Link's melee range and burst in for huge rewards. Killing is not a problem for Fox but Link has to venture within Fox's CQC range to kill and Fox wins that game.

At least now Link has a better recovery and Dthrow combos. Link can win but must make the right calls and outplay Fox hard to do so.

I find that Link's matchups as a whole tend to be more even than anything else. I do feel that Fox is Link's worst matchup, but Rage Link is a very scary character to face as a light, combo food character. Fox can also Laser camp Link, so that helps in the matchup, but its a very stressful matchup for Fox, because he needs to kill Link before 110%, or the Link will kill at 80%. I personally hate that matchup, so I go Cloud against Link, as sword vs sword matchups tend to be very fun. I personally think that Link doesn't have any matchup worse than Fox (-1.5), and no matchup in his favor more than +1.5. Link only goes -1 against Diddy because Diddy hates zoners and generally goes even with them. As for Mewtwo, his Side-B and D-tilt are the only things that keep the matchup from being -1. Mewtwo dies early and Link hits like a truck, so its definitely one of M2's more annoying Matchups. Zero Suit beats Link very slightly, as her combos work very well on Link, given his big hitbox and his (fast?) falling speed.

 

[Iridium]

No one's going to mention the Mac attack?


I agree Mewtwo and ZSS are about even. has good tool interactions in those MUs.
Vs , Link out-disjoints him and grab and Zair beat his reach. Mewtwo is a monster at zoning with things like Dtilt that can be hard for characters with poor reach to deal with but Link doesn't have to worry about that nearly as much. Mewtwo is extremely vulnerable to Link's Dthrow combos until high %s; he gets Usmashed at 0% and Uaired at 80%.

I went over but a lot of it relies on Link's grab being better than her's. Link may have good shield safety but still gets OoS grabbed and punished for bad spacing in MUs by normal grabs. But her grab is f16. He doesn't have to worry about being rush grabbed like vs Sheik/fox/etc. His projectiles out-zone ZSS' mid-range game and paralyzer, which is one of her strong points.

In both the above cases, Link is generally undertuned and the opponents have top tier options like Mewtwo's kill/throw game and ZSS' combos/ladders so he doesn't win.

Vs , IMO it's -1. Link has a good answer to Diddy's ground banana game, since bombs cancel them, but Diddy is quicker with much less commitment. Diddy can burst in and punish hard enough to more than make up for Link's weight and power advantages. Diddy's neutral is so good he goes even with Bayo :/

_______

The more I play the MU the more I think it being decent for Link is a myth, based on T being great at making good calls. Fox has always been terrible for Link in every game and nothing has changed that. The gap is smaller in SSB4 but it's still one of his worst. I know I said it's -1 earlier but played it Thursday and am revising it to -1.5.

Fox's reflector means Link can't simply play keep away with projectiles, even though reflected projectiles aren't a big concern. So Link is forced to play footsies with Fox and Fox has the strongest burst game of the cast imo. Link has always been weak to small characters because they're harder to wall and Fox is one. It ends up being a guessing game where Fox has much less commitment, an amazing punish game with vortexes, setups like Dair, and he's more than twice as fast as Link. Link's moves all have heavy commitment both in windup and end lag. Fox can patiently play outside Link's melee range and burst in for huge rewards. Killing is not a problem for Fox but Link has to venture within Fox's CQC range to kill and Fox wins that game.

At least now Link has a better recovery and Dthrow combos. Link can win but must make the right calls and outplay Fox hard to do so.

As for Mac, bt.yamato, Tarakotori, gain and Yaminabe and very skilled, even with the inconsistencies of Japan and them. Mac is just too weak in the air, and while I don't like him, a boost in air speed and reverting Jolt Haymaker to the original and Rising Uppercut having the same distance as on the ground would make him a little more busted.

As for Link, I feel T simply has answers to overall aggressive play styles, especially against Fox. I would not say I am the best against Fox, but T has no losing record to any top Fox in Japan. Only Kuro has beaten him more than once.

ZSS often makes me think I have to play more safe, or at least not up close. T has a winning record on Choco and shky. Three wins on Choco (I think) indicate he might have possibly a more patient play style when not forced in disadvantage state.

T in general does somewhat well against Diddy Kong, having wins on Zinoto, Masha, Suinoko and more. Depends on if pressure with bananas have an effect on him, and if he can make use of his ability to somewhat be able to pull off combos despite Diddy's light weight.

T also does somewhat well against Mewtwo, having wins on Abadango and Matcha. Aba however is a lot better at applying safe and aggressive pressure with Shadow Ball, even if he performs easier edgeguards with Bayo.

T overall gets a lot more better with matchups the more he plays that same character. Fox is the most notable example of this, so I am not too surprised he considers him a good matchup resultantly.

 

[Iridium]

Tatsutsuyo is a former Duckhunt.
And Raito already qualified for the 8-man bracket to be played after that, so he went full Marth.

Really? I never knew that. I guess Raito's losses didn't matter too much, as he did win the 8-man Seihasai invitational!
Edit: Sorry for the accidental double post.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Really? I never knew that. I guess Raito's losses didn't matter too much, as he did win the 8-man Seihasai invitational!
Edit: Sorry for the accidental double post.

Raito is a very intellectual player, truly the pioneer of the duck hunt metagame.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I have a mission for those seeing this comment:

Post any upsets that happen at Battle for Vegas.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The real pioneer and best Japanese Duckhunt was You3, but he disappeared for a while.
You3 recently tweeted he finished his thesis but still hasn't attended a tournament.

 

[Iridium]

The real pioneer and best Japanese Duckhunt was You3, but he disappeared for a while.
You3 recently tweeted he finished his thesis but still hasn't attended a tournament.

I do remember hearing he was at one time the best Duck Hunt, but to what degree? I at this point can't remember how long he was gone, although not too long maybe.

 

[The_Bookworm]

FOW vs SoCalGohan 1-2

FOW returns and then sent to the loser's bracket a bit too early for my taste.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

FOW immeditately lost to Gohan and was sent to losers. I am not too suprised though since he hasnt enter a tournament for a long time.

At least BestNess is here

 

[The_Bookworm]

And then Gohan immediately gets bodied by Konga. LOL

 

[JustCallMeJon]

And then Gohan immediately gets bodied by Konga. LOL

I saw the chat saying "FOW DIED FOR THIS NotLikeThis" LOL

Still I wish FOW vs Konga tho

 

[JustCallMeJon]

FOW drowned..huh..that is anticlimatic..

Still cmon BestNess

Edit: Also Edgar made rather close against Nairo despite being a 2-0. I saw his nerves and he miss a lot of punishes but nearly the end of the set, Edgar began to adjust it but it was too late. Still if Edgar played less shaky, he could beat Nairo. Still, he is a good Ness GG and props.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I can already taste the salt in the air at the end of Captain Zack vs Taternator set. I don't need to see the chat to know it.

Anyways Taternator played well, and Zack's mid/low tier curse almost stroke again.

The AC vs Technicals match had me dying!!! LLLOOOOLLLL

MAJOR UPSET: Brosinex 2-0 over Ally
This guy was in winner's side in top 8 in Midwest Mayhem. New Ryu player rises.

 

[Minordeth]

Welp. Hopefully Brosinex knows his Rosa MU.

...

Mistake, Zack, Salem, and Tweek are all in winners side top 32.

Of course it’s gonna be Nairo vs Zack. Of course. But last time Nairo played Bayo, he had started implementing some anti-Bayo play with ZSS, so I’m interested to see what he’s come up with.

Tweek’s gonna go up against Charlie, and normally I’d say Tweek > almost anyone, but Charlie also plays Bayo sooooo...

I’m not seeing Konga beating Mistake.

K9, for all his improvements, I’m not sure he can really clutch out a Salem win.

EDIT: the chance of at least 2 Bayos making top 8 is almost a given, with a decent chance for 3-4. If the widely publicized Bayo counterplay has started to take root in the top level, I’ll retract my odds.

 

[The_Bookworm]

VoiD defeated BestNess 2-1.

We have an opportunity in loser's. Just need to beat Dakpo to get to top 32.

Welp. Hopefully Brosinex knows his Rosa MU.

...

Mistake, Zack, Salem, and Tweek are all in winners side top 32.

Of course it’s gonna be Nairo vs Zack. Of course. But last time Nairo played Bayo, he had started implementing some anti-Bayo play with ZSS, so I’m interested to see what he’s come up with.

Tweek’s gonna go up against Charlie, and normally I’d say Tweek > almost anyone, but Charlie also plays Bayo sooooo...

I’m not seeing Konga beating Mistake.

K9, for all his improvements, I’m not sure he can really clutch out a Salem win.

EDIT: the chance of at least 2 Bayos making top 8 is almost a given, with a decent chance for 3-4. If the widely publicized Bayo counterplay has started to take root in the top level, I’ll retract my odds.

A bit of a Bayo-invasion, but hopefully it isn't too bad.

 

[Guido65]

I find that Link's matchups as a whole tend to be more even than anything else. I do feel that Fox is Link's worst matchup, but Rage Link is a very scary character to face as a light, combo food character. Fox can also Laser camp Link, so that helps in the matchup, but its a very stressful matchup for Fox, because he needs to kill Link before 110%, or the Link will kill at 80%. I personally hate that matchup, so I go Cloud against Link, as sword vs sword matchups tend to be very fun. I personally think that Link doesn't have any matchup worse than Fox (-1.5), and no matchup in his favor more than +1.5. Link only goes -1 against Diddy because Diddy hates zoners and generally goes even with them. As for Mewtwo, his Side-B and D-tilt are the only things that keep the matchup from being -1. Mewtwo dies early and Link hits like a truck, so its definitely one of M2's more annoying Matchups. Zero Suit beats Link very slightly, as her combos work very well on Link, given his big hitbox and his (fast?) falling speed.

Fox isn't exactly a good matchup for link but its definitely not his worst matchup in fact both Larry lurr and Scizor don't think it's that bad for link. Sheik is far worse because she's just way too good at abusing links most critical flaws such as his Blind spot diagonally above + in front of him which she can basically just nair/fair while the only real way link can challenge that angle is a up tilt which isn't exactly safe, her frame data is far too suffocating for link to get sheik off him, plus she ledge traps him for free. Needles aren't that amazing vs him but because sheik's getting rewarded far more for actually getting in on link's face its far more worth it to just overwhelm him with her frame data than it is to needle camp him. In fact this is exactly how Ramin plays the matchup and I have yet to see him drop a game vs a link although every link he has played is a significantly worse player than he is.

 

[Iridium]

Can anybody show me the link to the stream please?
Also, according to smash.gg, Dakpo2-1 BestNess at 33rd. All Ness mains out of the tourney now, with FOW drowning at 49th.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

BestNess lost to Dakpo 1-2...

:/

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

VoiD defeated BestNess 2-1.

We have an opportunity in loser's. Just need to beat Dakpo to get to top 32.

A bit of a Bayo-invasion, but hopefully it isn't too bad.

The Bayo counterplay needs to be on point.

 

[Iridium]

Anybody notice the large amount of Sheiks still in Top 32? Dakpo, Karna, VoiD, K9sbruce and Charlie (if he uses her). The Bayo invasion will most likely make a bigger name though.

AND THE FACT THAT VEN MADE TOP 32? I know the guy has come close many times, but this might be the best placing at a regional for a Zelda ever.

 

[TDK]

Anybody notice the large amount of Sheiks still in Top 32? Dakpo, Karna, VoiD, K9sbruce and Charlie (if he uses her). The Bayo invasion will most likely make a bigger name though.

AND THE FACT THAT VEN MADE TOP 32? I know the guy has come close many times, but this might be the best placing at a major for a Zelda ever.

At just over 150 entrants, this is a stacked regional, not a major. Good to Ven and Taternator () for getting 25th, though.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Can anybody show me the link to the stream please?
Also, according to smash.gg, Dakpo 2-1 BestNess. All Ness mains out of the tourney now, but now the abundance of Sheiks is further supported.

Dakpo played for the set.

Diddy

— Dakpo (@TheDakpo) March 24, 2018

Dakpo mains . I don't even think he plays .

 

[Iridium]

At just over 150 entrants, this is a stacked regional, not a major. Good to Ven and Taternator () for getting 25th, though.

My wording was a bit off, but the amount of PGR reps is still notable.

Also, VoiD 3-2 Fatality with a reverse 3-0. Fatality slowly lost his momentum throughout the set, especially during the last game, and VoiD's aggressive play style had Fatality somewhat nervous.

And MkLeo 3-2 Fallnwith another reverse 3-0. Not sure why he went Bayo, but he still barely clutched it out to make Top 8. His Cloud got swept the first two games.

Nairo beats Salem 3-2 in order to make Top 8, having teared through Captain Zack as well.

 

[|RK|]

To quote Virum:

Top level Cloud fading into the darkness 👀

— Virum (Old Profile) (@Virum_SD) March 25, 2018