A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[Ussi]

EDIT: Also, MrEh, I think you goofed. Notice something wrong with your updates?



Or anything else out of the ordinary?

That should be Olimar ;o

 

[B!squick]

Are you saying that Klaw out ranges wolf's uair when wolf is below boozer? (that sounds so ridiculous) o.o If it does, thats just crazy, lol. All the same, i feel like bowser's weight and size work against him while he's in the air.

The Fsmash does have great range for wolf. But its punishable if the wolf just keeps spamming it. Great punishing move though.

Maybe i caught hypethug on a bad day or somethin, but yea i wasn't all too impressed. Well i mean i was impressed at him bowsering other people and thats why i wanted to play him, but yea.

I'm saying it might. Klaw is so disjointed it extends downward somewhat and the range of Wolf's UAir leaves something to be desired. You are correct though. If Bowser was meant to fly they'd have given him his ride.

 

[Ishiey]

Bowser will really be liking upB OoS and grabs here. Wolf does very well against larger characters in general, even though it does make killing an issue. As Choice Brawler said, be prepared for the battle to go to the air. A good wolf will just wait below you once you're launched upwards, and that's going to suck. Wolf might fire his blaster a bit at the beginning, but that shouldn't be too bad. The main purpose there is to force an approach and maybe get some free damage. Your fire is a pain but nothing too bad, make sure you space everything very well though. I'd say a minor/moderate advantage for wolf.

 

[MrEh]

We skipped Olimar remember? No one could decide on anything.


I think the Bowser/Wolf matchup is slightly in Wolf's favor. But it's very slight.

 

[B!squick]

Updates:
- Dec 21: Made new thread. Falco has been added as a 45-55 matchup.
- Dec 23: R.O.B has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Dec 31: Marth has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Jan 5: Wario has been added as a 45-55 matchup. A new tier list was also released, so everything got shuffled around.
- Jan 12: Diddy has been added as a 35-65 matchup.
- Jan 25: Lucario has been added as a 45-55 matchup.
- Feb 5: Pikachu has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Feb 22: Kirby has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Feb 26: Donkey Kong has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Mar 2: Ice Climbers have been added as a 25-75 matchup.
- Mar 11: Zero Suit Samus has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Mar 12: Toon Link has been added as a 40-60 matchup.
- Mar 12: Pit was discussed for 5 minutes and added as a 40-60 matchup.
- March 18: Peach has been added as a 40-60 matchup.

I don't know about you, but I think Pikachu is a bit harder than that. :/

 

[MrEh]

It was the general consensus that Bowser/Pika was somewhat like 40-60.

 

[B!squick]

>.>; ... Really? I don't remember this at all! *flips back through the pages to find this*

EDIT: Okay, I remember now. It was one of those ify 40:60's; not the regular, is 40:60 though it could easily be more even 40:60's. My mistake. I need to get out more. I think my mind is getting warpped from being inside 90% percent of any given week lately.

 

[Bowser King]

We skipped Olimar remember? No one could decide on anything.


I think the Bowser/Wolf matchup is slightly in Wolf's favor. But it's very slight.

I disagree. I think putting it down as 50-50 would be a safe bet (seeing as it's the most agreed upon).

The bowser board discussions are so hollow D:
We discuss for a few seconds and then just label it as 60-40


-Bowser King

 

[B!squick]

I disagree. I think putting it down as 50-50 would be a safe bet (seeing as it's the most agreed upon).

The bowser board discussions are so hollow D:
We discuss for a few seconds and then just label it as 60-40


-Bowser King

It's mostly because these more recent ones were already discussed quite recently. We've already done the work, just not on the Bowser board, lol. I wonder if that makes us lazy... :/

 

[Ussi]

tidbit about Pikachu vs Bowser, Pikachu CGs bowser from 20%-30% with the new buffered dthrow.. scary ****. (dthrow does 9%..lol)

 

[B!squick]

tidbit about Pikachu vs Bowser, Pikachu CGs bowser from 20%-30% with the new buffered dthrow.. scary ****. (dthrow does 9%..lol)

Ouch... but a couple good whacks and maybe a Klaw would narrow that percent gap, I expect... though he is a pain to hit. :/

 

[Kinzer]

...

Forgive me, I know this is not the best place to put this, but you guys have no other thread on it, and it would be better for everybody else that I did not make yet another announcement thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205101

Mr. Eh a long time ago requested I did this, and this is now the time for me to fill that out. Please just take a look at it and wather or not you really do have any personal experience on the subject, just throw out whatever you got.

 

[Ussi]

Ouch... but a couple good whacks and maybe a Klaw would narrow that percent gap, I expect... though he is a pain to hit. :/

I meant Pikachu has to grab Bowser at 20% and can only CG to 30% when dthrow does 9% damage. So if you're 20-21% you get CG'd once.. lol. I was being sarcastic.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

doesn't the normal cg go to like 40 against bowser?

 

[MrEh]

I meant Pikachu has to grab Bowser at 20% and can only CG to 30% when dthrow does 9% damage. So if you're 20-21% you get CG'd once.. lol. I was being sarcastic.

All things considered, it's very funny how Pika's chaingrab wrecks Snake and Falco, but doesn't harm Bowser one bit. ^^

Overall, the Worlf matchup will probably be 50-50 or 45-55. I'll hear a bit more before I put down the number.

 

[Ussi]

doesn't the normal cg go to like 40 against bowser?

That's fthrow to 60%. That needs space.


@MrEh I think Bowser is floaty lol.

 

[B!squick]

Haha. Worlf. Lt. Worlf, even. XD

 

[castorpollux]

I don't see how bowser vs wolf is 50:50 or even close to 50:50. Wolf does best against big characters like bowser. Wolf's bair shield pokes bowser really easily and wolf's shine can pretty much bail him out of any mindgamed smash that a bowser throws at wolf.

 

[MrEh]

I don't see how bowser vs wolf is 50:50 or even close to 50:50.

What do you think it is then?

Wolf's bair shield pokes bowser really easily

Bowser has a big shield.

and wolf's shine can pretty much bail him out of any mindgamed smash that a bowser throws at wolf.

Bowser doesn't need smashes to kill.

 

[choice_brawler]

you can tilt the shield to prevent shield pokes too. also once you bair, you bowsers will most likely up oos right?

dang i wrote out a big thing about CPing and i refreshed this page by accident =/ i guess this way i can just give you guys the short version now that i've thought it out.
-wolf is gonna cp you where there are platforms: battlefield <3, or i personally like pokemon stadium 1
-you should cp wolf with dynamic stages: frigate orpheon is decent i guess (theres a vid of me almost getting 3 stocked there T-T, go on youtube if you want some lulz), halberd would be fine too or delfino plaza

 

[MrEh]

also once you bair, you bowsers will most likely up oos right?

Depends. If you're within range to get hit by it, then yes, we'll do that. If you aren't, and Wolf decides to start spamming Bair, then I'd just jump and throw out a Klaw.

-wolf is gonna cp you where there are platforms: battlefield <3, or i personally like pokemon stadium 1

BF is one of Bowser's best stages. That and Norfair, but that's not legal everywhere.

 

[choice_brawler]

BF is a better wolf stage imo. maybe its just bias because im a wolf, or i just like playing on BF but i dunno. Playing a bowser on BF isnt too bad for me, i seriously feel like Smashville and Final destination are better in your favor.

Yea i've heard norfair is good for bowser and also wolf. I've been running my tourneys with norfair, but i have no idea what i would do there as a wolf, lol.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

IMO Bowser vs Wolf is fairly even. I play against bowser all the time. Bowsers heavier and has a lot of out of shield options to use on wolf but wolf can juggle and do combo-like things with b-air and u-air. Wolf also has a projectile which can rack up some damage. Bowser has teh fire which works really well on wolf as all he can really do is move backwards away from bowser so it can rack up damage. Wolf has better smash attacks that arent as strong but arguably more useful than bowsers as his are quite slow. Bowser has stronger smash attacks but he will probably end up using tilts more often than smash attacks.


Overall its 50/50 IMO. It could be slightly in wolfs favor too.

 

[castorpollux]

sure bowser has a big shield but wolf can shield pressure him like crazy until it'll just go right through. up B OOS hardly does any damage too and it can only go forward iirc. Wolf does best against big characters like bowser. If he doesn't have an advantage over bowser, pretty much ur saying that wolf doesn't have an advantage over anyone.

Who are the best bowsers in the east coast (more specifically atlantic north)? I wanna play them to really see how they can even keep up with wolf.

 

[Red Arremer]

3 things to understand for you:
Bowser has the one of biggest shields in the game - if not the biggest - and OOS options with invincibility frames.
Bowser is not only big.
A Bowser player will not only use his shield against you. Thinking I will only use my shield while playing against me, you'll be fairly, if I may put it, screwed.

 

[Ussi]

sure bowser has a big shield but wolf can shield pressure him like crazy until it'll just go right through. up B OOS hardly does any damage too and it can only go forward iirc. Wolf does best against big characters like bowser. If he doesn't have an advantage over bowser, pretty much ur saying that wolf doesn't have an advantage over anyone.

Who are the best bowsers in the east coast (more specifically atlantic north)? I wanna play them to really see how they can even keep up with wolf.

Vex in Philly

 

[Red Arremer]

Vex in Philly

Hell yea. Vex who beat Azen with Bowser. Heehee.

 

[castorpollux]

3 things to understand for you:
Bowser has the one of biggest shields in the game - if not the biggest - and OOS options with invincibility frames.
Bowser is not only big.
A Bowser player will not only use his shield against you. Thinking I will only use my shield while playing against me, you'll be fairly, if I may put it, screwed.

screwed by you? don't think so. It will take a lot of crazy unbelievable mindgames to "screw" me over with bowser. Good snakes are wayyy scarier than any bowser I'll ever face, and I don't even get "screwed" by them. And when did vex beat azen with bowser?

 

[Red Arremer]

CoT4

And in respond to your comment: I just was kind of exaggerating. Bowser is better than you assume he is, he's not a big fat victim too slow to do anything but use his shield like you seem to think.

 

[castorpollux]

Hell yea. Vex who beat Azen with Bowser. Heehee.

LOL wow okay. I was watching that match personally and vex didn't use bowser 1 time. He used DDD 1st match which he lost. He then counterpicked norfair and switched to G&W and won. Then he went DDD in the last game when Azen chose battlefield.

CoT4

And in respond to your comment: I just was kind of exaggerating. Bowser is better than you assume he is, he's not a big fat victim too slow to do anything but use his shield like you seem to think.

I probably am underestimating bowser, but in all fairness, you are probably underestimating wolf. He's alot quicker than you think

 

[Red Arremer]

Really? I thought he used Bowser D: ... Then that must've been some friendly or MM.

I'm not underestimating anyone except maybe Pit. ;O

Wolf is definitely not in a disadvantage against Bowser. That's not what I'm saying.

He's alot quicker than you think

You mean Bowser? Yea. He sure is quicker than you think.

 

[B!squick]

UpB OoS *****. Even itsthebigfoot admitted in the DK discussion that you can't get greedy with DK's amazing BAir on Bowser, just to kinda put things in perspective. I would imagine Wolf would have to play it the same way.

 

[castorpollux]

wolf's bair game is wayyyyy better than dk's bair game

 

[Bragi]

Even so, I think what the Bowser community is saying is that, even given a character with one of the best Bairs in the game, one has to be careful approaching Bowser's formidable shield (and options thereof). Granted, Wolf's Bair is amazing, (and I say this as a former Wolf main), but it's one thing to say, in theory, that Bowser is going to be unable to effectively punish perfectly spaced Bairs, and quite another to put this into practice consistently. In reality neither player is going to be perfect, the Bairs aren't going to be perfectly placed, and I don't think one can say that "Bair>Fortress" and leave it at that. Fortress is one of the best OoS options in the game, Wolf's Bair is one of the best in the game--they're both going to be tough to work around.

That being said, I'd love to see some video evidence either way. This is all theory on my part, admittedly, as I don't have a lot of experience against Wolf with Bowser.

 

[choice_brawler]

Shield pressuring is hard against a bowser cuz of his up b oos. And he can move either forward or backwards just like in melee. The up b's start up range is huge and has invincibility frames. You don't really need to hit confirm the bairs, as soon as you see it just up b. Sure it doesnt do that much dmg like you said JJ, but its some damage. I really don't see this playing that huge of a role in the match up though honestly. I mean if the wolf gets tired of approaching and being met with up b's oos, they'll probably start lazoring or go for grabs. The grabs are huge in this match up even more so than shield pressuring i feel. But yea definitely if you can get some matches in with Vex, go for it man. I'd love to see the vids. He seems to stay in the air for a lot of the time and, in my experience at least, bowser just cant keep up with wolf's air game, but his ground game is good enough to make up for it i feel.

EDIT:

I'm not underestimating anyone except maybe Pit. ;O

Amen.

 

[Bragi]

He seems to stay in the air for a lot of the time and, in my experience at least, bowser just cant keep up with wolf's air game, but his ground game is good enough to make up for it i feel.

Yeah, I suspect Bowser would have to stay out of the air for the most part--Wolf's air game is downright dangerous, and I would think it would be more than enough to lock down most of Bowser's aerial options.

 

[Red Arremer]

lolol, whose airgame isn't better than Bowser's? XD I honestly can't think of a character with worse airgame than Bowser, even Ganon's isn't that bad. =P

'course a character with a sensational airgame like Wolf is good in the air against Boozer. But Bowser will stay away from the air, so yea.

As for choice_brawler: Considering that UpB's invincibility frames clank with blaster and - correct me if I'm wrong on that - Bowser outgrabs Wolf and has his Grab Release shenanigans or the Jab/FTilt, I think going this way could be just as dangerous.
Bowser is a castle.

I think that MU is pretty even, can't say I'd think it's in anyone's favor, even by only 5 or so points. Wolf has great approaches which can be wrecked if he gets careless, and Bowser has the grand defense which can be wrecked if he gets careless. So it's all a patience and mindgame MU.

 

[MrEh]

I'm prepared to call it either 50-50 or 45-55.

Take your pick.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm prepared to call it either 50-50 or 45-55.

Take your pick.

Not like we wouldn't have seen digits in that area a lot before, now, did we? XD

 

[Teh Future]

So why is TC not filling out any of the matchup summarys?