A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[Red Arremer]

That's YOUR interpretation. There's other interpretations. What's 60-40 for one is 55-45 for someone else.

I'm not saying matchups and opinions about them are subjective, which they of course are, but I meant the digits themselves. Those are just as subjective.

 

[Liquid Gen]

This is why I hate numbers. lol

ITs definitely Olimar's advantage regardless. You could just put like.. Disadvantage?

 

[Red Arremer]

I hate numbers, too.

I mean, we did numbers until now, so it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[Nitros14]

I don't think just putting numbers to it or saying advantage one way or another is useful.

Discussion should be focused on what exactly does Olimar do to screw up Bowser's game specifically and how should you adapt? Which is what someone reading the thread would actually be helped by.

In my opinion.

I can't say I've played any talented Olimar players though :|

 

[B!squick]

Discussion should be focused on what exactly does Olimar do to screw up Bowser's game specifically and how should you adapt? Which is what someone reading the thread would actually be helped by.

Yes. But remember, we have Flayl's indepth match up topic and the numbers are a quick and easy reference that show you at a glance how good or bad a character is in one match up or another. This is especially useful for picking a CP character. Would you really want to have to scroll through mounds of text just to see who's better at covering your bad match ups?

Also, I like how I posted in the Olimar match up thread for them to come hither, but none have as of yet. :/

 

[Nitros14]

Also, I like how I posted in the Olimar match up thread for them to come hither, but none have as of yet. :/

Let's blame the Olimar mains for everything.

 

[MrEh]

Olimar is bananas. That being said, go Bowser crazy on him.

 

[B!squick]

Is this seriously all the discussing we're gonna do on Olimar? A quick post by Gen, a random complaint about numbers who never hurt anyone, and MrEh's usual indepth synopsis? XD

I agree it's about 60:40 Olimar. There's no easy way for Bowser to get Pikmin off as it depends on where they latch onto and the face is something they'll be aiming for and only Dash Attack, FSmash, and UAir use Bowser's head, so I assume that's the only way to get them off. Just do your best to get him off stage and keep him there.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I'll try to make a decent write up for it now actually, I honestly don't believe its a terrible matchup, probably 6:4 Olimar favor

WoK(Wall of Klaw) is key to victory here, it beats Upsmash, so he can't just upsmash or grab your approachs now. Olimar's would probably think that since your in the air WoK'ing that they can just do an aerial or upb you, this is false. Because if olimar gets off the ground you should instantly just air dodge down and either

1. Upb to do damage

2. Try to obtain a grab from this situation(I recommend this)

Upb is safer and will probably always work, however getting a grab on Olimar is extremely important. Once you grab Olimar you can chaingrab him to the ledge into either

1. Klaw

2. Jump release Fair(I recommend this)

After this he is off stage at the mercy of Bowser, predict when he whistles or airdodges and bair it, if you do this successfully, he'll probably lose his stock.

This same situation can occur if they do a grounded Upb because I believe you can react to the Upb's initial startup if your predicting it'll happen.

Well I think this was my first informative write up on a Bowser matchup on this boards ^_^. Take this description as you will, this is all theorycraft but I would think this works considering I have done this to .com, ranked 5th in PA and PA's best Olimar.

Uh, I think this is a decent post for the matchup.

 

[The Brown Scourge]

It's not a decent post but it's a great one!

 

[B!squick]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that post. Well, I'm sold, 6:4 Olimar it is.

 

[Denti]

now i've only fought a good bowser once, but i have an idea of what i would do.

SPAM pikmin toss, i'll force you into situations with pikmin pressure. if you get hit by one of my purple pikmin, i'll follow up with something for sure, probably a grab. I'll pivot grab a lot too because i'll be afraid of bowser fair stuff. i'll also Nair for priority and following the Nair will be an up smash or down smash unless you DI out of it. when you recover i'll use F smash to smash you off again until i can fully gimp you. i dont know the match up fantasticly but odds are spamming pikmin toss for pressure is your greatest enemy. when we ledge grab fire might be a good choice, leaves us optionless. when you are in the air, i'll generally Uair or Nair, so be prepared for that.

 

[Vetona the Zero]

When does the Bowser vs Link matchup discussion begin?

 

[Cassius.]

It already began, and ended. lol

 

[Sliq]

Doesn't Bowser's nair get them off? Since he becomes a huge hitbox and curls into his shell?

 

[B!squick]

Where they latch onto affects what attacks can get them off, if I'm not mistaken. If they're on his body I assume NAir would work, yes. But I think if they're on the limbs and head it wont work because he goes into his shell.

Either way though, I don't think you should be worrying about getting the Pikmin off. The moment you start fighting them and not Olimar is when you start to lose. Bowser is just too big and lacks quick attacks. I strongly advise against taking the time to shake off the Pikmin, even if you're attacking Olimar with what you think will attack the Pikmin on you as well.

Gen gave the best suggestion I think. Just worry about the purple ones when they come up. It also doesn't hurt to cleanse Olimar of the little buggers with some fire breath. And remember that he needs to be on the ground to get more.

 

[Kirk]

Sorry for being off of the topic at hand, but I was wondering if there has already been a discussion(somewhat recent) of Bowser vs. Metaknight. If so, can someone point me to it?

I'm looking to learn this matchup as best as I can...since it is a pretty hopeless case with Ike. If there hasn't been anything yet, its cool. I'll just continue practicing and lurking...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Sorry for being off of the topic at hand, but I was wondering if there has already been a discussion(somewhat recent) of Bowser vs. Metaknight. If so, can someone point me to it?

I'm looking to learn this matchup as best as I can...since it is a pretty hopeless case with Ike. If there hasn't been anything yet, its cool. I'll just continue practicing and lurking...

Here's what you do.

1) Shield
2) Retreating Up B
3) Repeat :D

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Here's what you do.

1) Shield
2) Retreating Up B
3) Repeat :D

No, and the matchup is pretty bad, you might as well pick up a different secondary for MK, I personally think its 7:3 MK advantage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What else is Bowser going to be able to do against MK besides maybe grab release stuff and koopa klaw? >_> <_<

 

[Cassius.]

FTilt. Also, you didn't state klaw as one of the things Bowser could do to MK <_< your list is lacking

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ya I did. At the end of the list: "Koopa Klaw". >_>

 

[Cassius.]

Meh...I was talking about the "list" you first made before you corrected yourself lol

 

[B!squick]

It's only bad if MK planks. But then, that can be said for alot of characters. I suggest Ganon for fighting MK.

 

[Liquid Gen]

How do you get 3 Pikachus and 5 Bulbasaurs on a bus?

Poke em on!

Also.

CG Squirtle, upb a lot of his pressure.

Vs Ivysaur, get past razor leaf to an ftilt or grab or something similar.

Don't klawhop vs. Charizard, bait rocksmash and punish with a grab or klaw, etc.

 

[MrEh]

Sorry for being off of the topic at hand, but I was wondering if there has already been a discussion(somewhat recent) of Bowser vs. Metaknight. If so, can someone point me to it?

I'm looking to learn this matchup as best as I can...since it is a pretty hopeless case with Ike. If there hasn't been anything yet, its cool. I'll just continue practicing and lurking...

Like Vex said, MK vs Bowser is a load of poo. Best you can hope for is the MK doesn't know the matchup and rushes you down. At least then you can eat him with UpB and grabs. Otherwise, you'll be camped hard and it'll just be another matchup that MK laughs at.


Go Snake. lol

 

[Kirk]

Well then, good to know. :o

I suppose those matchup numbers are a little bit off then, eh? I WOULD work on my Snake, but it always turns out to be pretty terrible. Playing friendlies last weekend vs. a Metaknight, I would get 1-stocked playing Ike, I would generally win with Bowser, and I'd get 2-stocked using Snake. >.>

I mention Bowser because I LOVE to play as him, and he at least has a better chance of winning than Ike. Snake would clearly be a better choice, but in tournament I can't seem to pull it out. Or perhaps I just have to better learn that matchup...sigh.

Thanks for the input though, everyone. You were of much assistance.

 

[MrEh]

I mention Bowser because I LOVE to play as him, and he at least has a better chance of winning than Ike. Snake would clearly be a better choice, but in tournament I can't seem to pull it out. Or perhaps I just have to better learn that matchup...sigh.

Thanks for the input though, everyone. You were of much assistance.

Well, Bowser does do better then Ike against MK.

If you really like him, then go for it.

 

[Cassius.]

I have the same issue with Bowser vs MK. I can CP anyone if I wanted to, but the problem is, who? I'm only proficient in using Bowser, GnW, ROB, Falco, and my Snake kinda sucks. I can use Wolfcario also but you know...it's not really useful.

MK's just too pro, haha.

Also, how's my avatar? o: The quality got kinda f'd, but still, how is it? lol

 

[B!squick]

Eh, it's great if you're into that sort of thing. I like true "gangsta's" myself.

^I should point out I was working with MSPaint which is why it looks terrible. But, you get the idea.

 

[Hobobloke]

It's pimpin' Limit

 

[Cassius.]

Yay :] also not to bring race into this but I honestly was drawn to this avatar like a lot...it's probably because of my preference and how I see Bowser...but let's not forget that I'm black <.<

ANYWAY, BACK TO MATCHUPS:

Squirtle: 55-45 Bowser or 50-50, take your pick. I don't think it can really be in squirtle's favor but I saw some low tier tournament match on youtube where Vex played a PT at HOBO, and I cried at the hydro-grab gimps or whatever they are. That **** is dangerous. But generally speaking, minus the gimps and grabby stuff Squirtle can do to us, let's not forget what Bowser can do to Squirtle off of grabs. Since Squirtle is small and quick, it can be a pain to get a grab on him (I should be calling squirtle an it but F pokemon rules right now). However, when you do get a grab, as with any matchup that doesn't involve DK, make the most of it. We can air release Squirtle, and more importantly, we can ground release into a lot of things.

On the downside for Bowser, he's fat. Squirtle isn't. Squirtle is very good, and has quick aerials which translates into FFFFF for Bowser. I can't really see myself get hit by an uptilt from squirtle but hey, you never know. Anyway, uptilt is a very good move and squirtle can usually get about 3 or 4 because Bowser is fat, and then he can get you into the air and have you at his mercy, or lack thereof.

Killing wise, it's our advantage because squirtle is very light and a ground release DTilt should send him on his way. Even a fresh ftilt and a bunch of other "fresh" moves in our arsenal could get the job done.

I'd lean towards 55-45 Bowser because there's no escaping the fact that Squirtle is definitely a legit character. However, Bowser has things that can hurt Squirtle badly, namely our Grab releases, and our upB OoS (since mind you all of squirtle's attacks involve it getting within close range of Bowser, squirtle has no projectile that damages/ranged moves)

Also we could look into how simple it is to gimp Squirtle since his recovery involves him going upwards. Removing his second jump and getting the edgeguard should be good enough, right? The same problem applies to Bowser since his recovery doesn't involve a cypher or a shuttle loop, but Squirtle's isn't great either haha.

I'll get to Ivysaur and Charizard after classes, but I think the overall Matchup is maybe 55-45 Bowser's favor, possibly 50-50 but I doubt it.

 

[Magik0722]

Vex fell for the first hydrogimp because he didnt know about it / expecting it, bowser can still survive it sometimes, but that doesnt mean that hydrogimp sucks, squirtle can still do many followups after that such as dobule footstool, fair, bair (any aerial basically but these are the most common). The problem is that hydrograb is telegraphed so if you recognize the signs that squirtle gives off before attempting it you should be fine. Play defensively and you should be beating any squirtle, after fatigue, the sheer weight difference will win you the game.

Infinite grab ivysuar, enough said, expect a quick switch out of ivy by the PT

Charizard does ok here, me, i think the most important part of charizard vs bowser is his grab, its just so big and charizard runs so fast, i would limit the amount of UpBs ooS you attempt to do and avoid laggy moves in general, be unpredictable with your recovery because charizard can dair a recovery as repititves as bowsers


I'd say 45-55 advantage towards bowser vs squirtle

25-75 advantage towards bower vs ivysuar

60-40 advantage towards charizard vs bowser

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Opinion,

4:6 Squirtle
65:35 Ivy
55:45 Charizard

 

[Dre89]

Don't klawhop vs. Charizard, bait rocksmash and punish with a grab or klaw, etc.

You'll only ever be able to punish rocksmash with a grab if the Zard tries to sweetspot it, which good PTs will rarely try considering that it's punishable.

They're most likely to use it out of a retreating jump or at a distance where the shards will stop any attempt to punish it.

 

[Hobobloke]

Oooh he's from Australia! Are you coming to SQUAT?

On topic
60:40 Squirtle
65:35 Ivy
55:45 Zard

PT get's lolowned by grab releases.

 

[Dre89]

If you're talking to me, na probably not.

Would fire breath be good to use on Squirtle because he gets lower knockback?

55-45 Bowser seems generous to Bowser for me, but I'm not in a position to comment because I'm not a pro nor versed pro Bowsers.

But yeah it does seem like the MU in general would be in Bowser's favour simply because if you play defensive it'd be hard for a fatgued pokemon to get the kill

 

[B!squick]

And being defensive is what Bowsers do best. Nevermind that all the good ones don't play defensively, lol.

Also, simply because of Squirtle's epic aerial mobility combined with the low knockback, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it'd be incredibly easy for him to DI into Bowser and smack him around. I haven't played in forever though, so I'm just making a logical guess.

 

[Liquid Gen]

You guys could ask Mata for his opinion. He mains PT and I played him on Saturday. I think it'd be better to get a PT main's (whos actually played recently) opinion.

Yes he's on smashboards.

 

[Dre89]

Get Reflex, Magik, Toby or Typh, they're the ones who reflect the metagame at the moment (although Typh mains ICs now).

I'd advise to wait for their opinions (Magik has already contributed) because it's pretty well known that there's only about 5 good PTs and there's a significant gap between those and the rest of us.