A message to Smash Tournament hosts

[Keitaro]

I still think any discussion against the URC atm is equivalent to beating a dead horse. Its all slightly entertaining to read but can get annoying at times too.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

As the only point I can say something about atm, I'll just tell you, as far as I've observed from Latin America forum, chilean community is extremely biased.

I don't know if other communities are,won't even argue about that, but Chile has relatively few players, and their intentions can be easily read.
They just want to benefit themselves by removing their biggest threat (you and your MK).
If they don't mind a MK legal tourney without you, that means they don't even think there's something wrong with the character in the first place...

Which is sad, and makes me wonder who, if other communities or regions, voted for the ban based on a certain player or situation, rather than the character, the metagame and stuff....
Oh wait.... They do-- all the time....


Anyways, Unity was supposed to please masses rather than doing what's "objectively best" for community.


Also, thread read +1

Well so far, I know that Costa Rica and Brazil banned Meta Knight because he is "Too good" (and both countries are not even close to a Meta Knight over-centralization. Pretty much all the Top 8 placings in a tournament use a diferent character, same here in Chile).

Colombia had a player named Sky who won all the tournaments he entered in 1 year with Meta Knight. A top 3 placing player made a thread about the MK Ban in the Colombian Smash forum. 30 persons voted (there were new players to the community and tournaments or even retired players who voted) and MK was banned in less than 7 days of discussion.

Argentina IS NOT banning Meta Knight. The TO's said that he is NOT broken enough to be banned, and that they don't have a Meta Knight over-centralization problem. And they have like 3-4 Meta Knight mains who enter to the tournaments in Argentina in a regular basis.

 

[rhan]

All this because banning Metaknight is such a big deal.
He make Brawl fun.
He's the only reason I joined Brawl tourneys.
He's the reason Brawl is still living.

You guys are the reason why your game's gonna die soon.

 

[ItoxBlade]

I dont think this is about over-centralization, is about the character being too good

 

[ぱみゅ]

Mexico seems that won't ban Meta Knight soon.
I mean, we're like 4-5 worth mentioning MetaKnights out of ~50 regular-national-atendees.
A bunch of people second him, but, again, nothing worth mentioning.

Each region/state have their own rulesets.
This city particularily, we're like 2-3 TOs, each one with different rulesets.
Some extremely conservative (Tijuana), some extremely liberal (me and Toluca), but we all just want to play the game.

I dont think this is about over-centralization, is about the character being too good

Which is EXTREMELY subjective, and any argument about that will eventually fail.

 

[rhan]

Metaknight isn't good. Every other character just sucks more.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Metaknight isn't good. Every other character just sucks more.

I always used to say that no character was actually good in Brawl. Everyone is different levels of terrible. And then you have Meta Knight, who's basically like, a mid tier character in Melee who just happens to be in a game where being a mid tier melee character is better than everything else.

Basically Doc = Meta Knight is what im saying.

 

[AlphaZealot]

1000 people vote on a poll, apparently make up 75% of Smashboards

AZ pretends AiB's community even matters


There's a reason most fighting games never, ever ban a character, and that's because there's almost never a case of a character actually being unbeatable. Popular vote is not what makes a character ban worthy. Even if MK has no even match ups, even if he's 55/45 with everyone, that just means he's the best character in the game. Akuma was 80/20 with his worst match up, he wasnt beatable by any character if played correctly. Meta Knight is just kind of annoying to play against and people want to complain about how the best character winning the majority of the time(cus he's, yanno, the best character in the game) isnt fair.

The brawl community, the BBR, BBR-RC, you're all pathetic. You've literally managed to become what groups like SRK love to make fun of smash for being.

Yes, two such polls would make an accurate representation of the Smash community. Is it perfect? No. Is it a large enough sample to be statistically significant. Yes. Even better though? There are at least 5 polls which all came out showing the majority of people were in favor of banning. Spanning years. Are you trying to pretend the numbers lie? 60% of the top 100 are in favor of the ban, too. Really, you are grasping at straws.

Yet you seem to really believe that was the only focus and reason for the ban. It was a combination of factors, any number of which on their own would not warrant a character being banned but coupled together does.

Good job regurgitating Sirlin (almost word for word) about Akuma. Did you know he also banned Akuma in HDR, where Akuma had arguably a few '50-50' MUs and wasn't nearly as 'broken' (wasn't at all really, he just wanted some people to still be playing the game by the time EVO rolled around). After only a few months. Where Akuma didn't even win 20% of the money or ever place more than 3 times in the top 8 at a tournament, and usually only took 1 or 2 positions in top 8 (not even winning many of the 20 or so tournaments that took place before the ban).

There are better arguments out that then what you are making, you should probably step aside and let someone else do it because these are just plain poor.

 

[Thino]

Mew2king, I don't think you can win this argument at this rate.

It's pretty clear that the URC banned MK based on unpopularity at this point, so there's no need to argue about MK being broken or not because that is not the point anymore.

What is good to do right now, is trying to make tournament that do not use the URC ruleset more popular in hte U.S

Arguing with the URC about the ban right now, like many before me have mentioned, is like beating a dead horse.

Just participate to MK-Legal tournaments from January 9th on

 

[King Funk]

Let's make the ANTI UNITY RULESET.

Spoiler

see -> European (dutch/german) ruleset

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

But it's fine for 20% to benefit and have 80% get extremely Ef'd over?

The 80% doesn't get ****ed, that's the thing. They have to put up with one in 4-5 opponents playing a bad matchup. The only people truly ****ed by this are the people whose fun in the game is ruined because they have to deal with metaknight at all, and I think it's fair to say that those people are whiny little *****es.

Like you couldn't dedicate your time to another character...

All right, I'm not gonna mince words: this opinion is ********, and it makes you seem like an ******* when you hold it. I am so sick of hearing such an absolute perversion of "play to win". It sickens me.

I was referring to the people (Such as M2K who are anti-ban.)

If Metaknight isn't too good of a character (Or hasn't yet proven to be.) who is? Or, how much of the metagame to they have to be dominating?

I believe that a character is broken when he is effectively unbeatable when played at the highest human level by any other character (for purposes here, let's just say he goes 65-35 or better with the entire cast). This is a reasonable requirement, as shown by previous fighting games such as SF3S, SSB64, and the like. That said, determining matchups is a whole other can of worms, so the most effective way to show this is to look at the results. And what do we have?
-Europe is dominated by Marth, but still has a very wide-spread, balanced metagame
-Japan is dominated by Olimar and ICs, but also has a very well-spread metagame.
-The USA is dominated by Metaknight, but also is sorely lacking in top players who don't play Metaknight (off the top of my head, I can name more players that main MK at a top level than players who don't at a top level). And even despite that, the big events often are won by other characters, top players like M2K and Ally can and do lose both tournament matches and sets! And this character is supposed to be broken? No, the problem at the highest level is the players. Japan doesn't have this kind of problem. Europe doesn't have this kind of problem. Hell, MW doesn't even have this problem unless the NY/NJ crowd comes out for the weekend.

(Just FYI, I'm not discounting overcentralization as a valid ban criteria. I'm strictly dealing with brokenness right here)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy1EJtce1fI

or even more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-g4TqMFemY

Meta Knight CAN be beaten. It happened in the past, and it will happen again in the future.

A character is broken if he cant be beaten by any other character in the game. And it gets even worse, if that character cant be beaten on a constistent base, meaning that the outcome of a mirror match is "random", and therefore the Top Level metagame becomes uncompetitive. All of his moves are so broken, that every match will just end in Spamming them, without any thought.
That is a broken character to me.

M2K manages to nearly never loose any MK ditto, which shows, that it a) takes skill to use that character b) you just cant mindlessly spam moves.
But M2K, just like Ally, also lost to several other character in the past. If the best of the best, cant win all the time with the -how you say- obviously broken character, then how the hell do you want to claim that Meta Knight is broken?

You are acting like MK cant be beaten, which just isnt true...
America just have a mindset problem, because they take playing to win not only way too seriously, but also in a wrong way. Just like religious fanatatics.
You dont have to go MK to have a chance at winning.
You can also be the best in the world with ZSS, you just need to have enough skill.
A big mistake of USA was it, to release a tier list very soon (Way too soon), because of that, many people that mained LT characters began a) to blame their characters for losing
and b) started a High Tier (Mostly its MK because "if I drop my main, I can use the #1 anyway").
Your Country overrated characters, and underrated player skill.
That is your problem. And youre even strengthen that with Tier Lists, Ranking etc.
All that stuff, just to discuss, instead of actually getting better.

Meta Knight is semi-broken / borderline broken / grey area / or whatever you want to call it. But if a character is not truely broken, he shouldnt be banned "officially", thats just stupid and extremely scrubby. Nothing wrong with doing MK banned tournaments. Just like doing MT or LT tournaments. No problem. But the Main Focus should stay on a Metagame that includes MK.


@AZ: Some statisctics for you.
Who won Apex?
- A Falco
Who won MLG?
- A Diddy
Who dominates Europe?
- Martha
Who dominates Japan?
- Olimar & ICs
Doesnt seem like an OP character to me, if he doesnt win everything.




Europe is on your side Jason
Too bad it doesnt help you that much

Top tier post.

 

[Isatis]

This topic somehow went from "if you don't like the ruleset don't use it" to "MK shouldn't be banned". :|

Can we put the Meta Knight stuff in this topic instead?

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I don't think complaining will help the situation M2K; I think you've gotten your point across :/

You should read James 1 -- http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James 1&version=NIV

& Jeremiah 29:11-14: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah 29:11-14&version=NIV

I know you're pretty upset, but you still have some choices you can make. You can still stick w/ Brawl and main someone else(DDD, Marth, Pit, Sheik) and still use MK at MK banned tournaments, or you can just not play Brawl and play Melee instead, or you can just find another hobby(another fighting game or a job or something else). Complaining will not do much more sadly, but I feel for you >_<

One thing you have to keep in mind is that the URC is trying to save Brawl and make it last as long as it can. There have been many players that have left because of MK, and I know a few that are coming back now that the ban is taking place. I'm sure there will be more, and the ban is only in this ruleset. There's still a chance that MK can come back, but not in this Version__? It probably won't happen until 6months-1 year if it will even happen though.

 

[John12346]

Did you know he also banned Akuma in HDR, where Akuma had arguably a few '50-50' MUs and wasn't nearly as 'broken' (wasn't at all really, he just wanted some people to still be playing the game by the time EVO rolled around). After only a few months. Where Akuma didn't even win 20% of the money or ever place more than 3 times in the top 8 at a tournament, and usually only took 1 or 2 positions in top 8 (not even winning many of the 20 or so tournaments that took place before the ban).

This actually caught my attention.

Just so I have confirmation on whether this is true or not, could I get a second opinion from someone else?

 

[Thino]

So anyone tell me what would it take for Nationals to adopt a non-URC Ruleset?

 

[Zankoku]

A better ruleset?

 

[Thino]

A better ruleset?

Well let's assume it's just the URC Ruleset but just with MK legal.

Who decides which ruleset is used at Nationals , TOs themselves right?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No one really answered my question of how you can ban a character without jumping into being subjective at some point. Or even answered when I asked, how you can ban a character without looking into public opinion.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't think complaining will help the situation M2K; I think you've gotten your point across :/

You should read James 1 -- http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James 1&version=NIV

& Jeremiah 29:11-14: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah 29:11-14&version=NIV

"Don't worry! God has a plan! It may involve us needing to root through an infested garbage heap for scraps in order to survive the next year or two, but things will get better!"

 

[Omni]

This topic somehow went from "if you don't like the ruleset don't use it" to "MK shouldn't be banned". :|

Can we put the Meta Knight stuff in this topic instead?

This.

Focus on the topic, please.

 

[Juushichi]

I always used to say that no character was actually good in Brawl. Everyone is different levels of terrible. And then you have Meta Knight, who's basically like, a mid tier character in Melee who just happens to be in a game where being a mid tier melee character is better than everything else.

Basically Doc = Meta Knight is what im saying.

I'm sorry, but you are ********. The only arguable thing that you could say that makes MK not be all that great is that certain moves of his could be crouch canceled in Melee.

Meta Knight's ability to edgeguard alone means that he would destroy 90% of the cast. Not to mention his juggle game, overall speed of movement and a downsmash that most Melee characters would kill their mothers for. Then you get to recovery options from off stage.

 

[Thino]

No one really answered my question of how you can ban a character without jumping into being subjective at some point. Or even answered when I asked, how you can ban a character without looking into public opinion.

Well to come back on the subject of the ban, It's pretty simple :

When you feel that it's subjective, you don't ban at all.

When in slightest doubt about something, just don't do it at all, it saves a lot of trouble.

IMO in a environment that claims itself to be "competitive" you don't ban according to public opinion at all.

The only way banning a character by looking into public opinion should be done is if every single one of this opinion provide clear arguments why a certain character is, in the case of Brawl, "broken".

sorry for being offtopic just replying to Red Ryu

this is why if you're really asking how, I will tell it's downright not possible.

BUT, the URC chose the way to make most people happy, its cool, because it means there are 70% of people who still play this game for fun.. but I personally don't consider people playing by the URC Ruleset from January 9th on, as competitive players.

They're semi-competitive to me because the overcentralization of competitive scene by MK is SOMEHOW a bother to them.

sorry for being offtopic , just replying to Red Ryu

 

[Zankoku]

Well let's assume it's just the URC Ruleset but just with MK legal.

Who decides which ruleset is used at Nationals , TOs themselves right?

The TO makes the final choice on ruleset. The URC just publishes the Unity Ruleset, and the greatest amount of influence they currently have is electing to not sticky your thread if you do not follow it.

 

[Thino]

The TO makes the final choice on ruleset. The URC just publishes the Unity Ruleset, and the greatest amount of influence they currently have is electing to not sticky your thread if you do not follow it.

Alright. It means to have a chance to have MK legal Nationals, anti-bans have to convince current TOs or have new TOs that support MK legal ruleset.

I have no idea how hard this will be, but it sounds like a plan for anti-bans that live in the U.S and Canada.

 

[Zankoku]

Well, yes, though I was under the impression that people already knew this when they started running MK banned tournaments even before Unity allowed it as an "Experimental".

 

[Ussi]

Alright. It means to have a chance to have MK legal Nationals, anti-bans have to convince current TOs or have new TOs that support MK legal ruleset.

I have no idea how hard this will be, but it sounds like a plan for anti-bans that live in the U.S and Canada.

URC is kind of the relevant TOs in the USA

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well to come back on the subject of the ban, It's pretty simple :

When you feel that it's subjective, you don't ban at all.

When in slightest doubt about something, just don't do it at all, it saves a lot of trouble.

IMO in a environment that claims itself to be "competitive" you don't ban according to public opinion at all.

The only way banning a character by looking into public opinion should be done is if every single one of this opinion provide clear arguments why a certain character is, in the case of Brawl, "broken".

sorry for being offtopic just replying to Red Ryu

this is why if you're really asking how, I will tell it's downright not possible.

BUT, the URC chose the way to make most people happy, its cool, because it means there are 70% of people who still play this game for fun.. but I personally don't consider people playing by the URC Ruleset from January 9th on, as competitive players.

They're semi-competitive to me because the overcentralization of competitive scene by MK is SOMEHOW a bother to them.

sorry for being offtopic , just replying to Red Ryu

Well by this logic then wouldn't people who banned characters like Hilde in SC or other games be anti competitive? There was a public opinion to banning. No one is telling me what separates this one from other games, MK isn't Akuma or Ivan Ooze.

Your always going to look at public opinion in any community, even look at HD Akuma, same thing there. Public wanted him gone, and look what happened.

A game is only as competitive as the number and force the people playing the game playing it make it, note this is not related to gameplay or anything like that, the drive people have with it are what make a game work.

Guilty Gear is not competitive if no one is playing it competitively. Road Kill cooking is competitive if a lot of people are competing to be the best road kill cooker.

~

If not, then what do you or anyone that opposes public opinion, which I'm going to remind people wasn't the sole reason MK got banned for, then what do you base it on? Logical discussion? among whom? the Public? Specific players?

No matter what you do, there will be a mob mentality of some sort when making a decision like this. Some people will be educated, some will be biased, some will be idiots. This is life, you gotta live with it.

Same thing with being a TO with rules and stages, people will form the norm that they want. This is what Unity wants to do, TOs shouldn't be discouraged from making those, they just won't get a sticky, no one cares if it is a local or a small regional. Even if it is a large regional, why are they experimenting with a ruleset where numerous people from differing regions are showing up for?

 

[Strong Badam]

HD akuma was a case where the developers tried to make him balanced, came out and said that they failed and that he should be banned. it's not really comparable to the MK issue.
ivan ooze was just in a lol game that wasn't even competed in lol.

 

[Isatis]

thread locked.

Any MK discussion --> http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=311729