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Act 3 Clear!!: Sonic Tournament Results & Discussion Thread

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
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Aug 21, 2007
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Tri-state area
Can you consider it wrong to split, even if you still put on one hell of a show for the audience?
IE: Splitting while still playing the set out, no restraints?

I admit that I split from time to time, but when I do, I still play my heart out in the set, and I like to think that my opponent does too. As long as that's established, I feel like the competitive spirit of the game is preserved.

But that's just my morals at work. I wanna know if that's wrong or right.

Bracket manipulation though, feels like it's a step above something like splitting.
It's still essentially collussion by the players and for all intents and purposes decides the match prior to when it actually occurs. As such it's anti-competative and built in a philosophy of hedging monetary bets as opposed to playing to win the game.

And the sad thing is that it's so incredibly accepted among the smash community, I know of only a few people who seriously push against it (thanks AZ).

Is it as bad as throwing matches so people make it to brackets? Probably not.


Is the fact that it's acceptable an outgrowth of the same mentality that it's ok to collude with your opponents? Definately. Does the open acceptance hurt smash as a competative game? Hell yea. How can we be expected to be taken seriously as a competative game if these things are not only common but acceptable?


Sure, it'll happen occassionally, but behind closed doors so it will be percieved as on the player and won't hurt the image of the community and won't teach new players that it's acceptable.
 

Espy Rose

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It's still essentially collussion by the players and for all intents and purposes decides the match prior to when it actually occurs. As such it's anti-competative and built in a philosophy of hedging monetary bets as opposed to playing to win the game.
My problem with this is that if both players agree to a split, but still have no intention of sandbagging/throwing the match/etc. in any kind of way, exactly how can that be "anti-competitive", and not "playing to win"? If you both agree to play at your best regardless of the monetary gain, then it's preserving the competitive spirit of the game. You don't NEED money to encourage people to play at their peak. It just happens to be a very convincing reason since it's such a powerful tool.

But again, what about those who just don't care about the money, and play for the spirit of competition? You say that it's still collusion, but collusion implies that what's going on is fraudulent. How can it be, if both players disregard the money and still play it out to the best of their individual efforts? You surely can't suggest that the sets that they play from that point out are "fake", just because they decided to split.

I say it's a combination of splitting primarily for monetary gain, AND a clear vision of "sandbagging", that makes the act of splitting wrong in most scenarios. Of course, when you bring up MLG, that was considered an act that went against MLG policies, morality be damned, so it's wrong by the simple act.

It's all obviously about perspective, of course. I truly believe that it's okay to split as long as both players are still throwing out 100% or more, because if you are pouring out all of your effort regardless, then the money is no longer a factor, thus splitting of said money shouldn't have any negative impact on the players.

But that's just how I feel. Again, if done in a setting like MLG, it's obviously wrong. But at grassroot tournaments and locals? Why should it be considered wrong in the circumstances I've described?

Is the fact that it's acceptable an outgrowth of the same mentality that it's ok to collude with your opponents? Definately. Does the open acceptance hurt smash as a competative game? Hell yea. How can we be expected to be taken seriously as a competative game if these things are not only common but acceptable?
You're using that word again. You're trying to say that regardless of motive or circumstance, it's ALWAYS wrong.

On that note, would you be agreeing to the idea that the value and quality of our community is solely based on how we manage our money? Because that's what I'm hearing. Not to say that that's what I believe. I just want clarity on this.

My point is that not every split is done with ill intent.

Bracket manipulation is completely different. I don't see a possible reason for bracket manipulation to be done that's healthy for competition, or harmless to spirit of competition.

Sure, it'll happen occassionally, but behind closed doors so it will be percieved as on the player and won't hurt the image of the community and won't teach new players that it's acceptable.
But if it's perceived on the player, it'll eventually be linked back to the community the player affiliates themselves with. That's just the way people initially think. Wouldn't that natural train of thought lead to harm against the community regardless? How can you suggest otherwise?

I'm not asking rhetorical questions either. I really would like a response to the things I have asked about.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
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My problem with this is that if both players agree to a split, but still have no intention of sandbagging/throwing the match/etc. in any kind of way, exactly how can that be "anti-competitive", and not "playing to win"? If you both agree to play at your best regardless of the monetary gain, then it's preserving the competitive spirit of the game. You don't NEED money to encourage people to play at their peak. It just happens to be a very convincing reason since it's such a powerful tool.

But again, what about those who just don't care about the money, and play for the spirit of competition? You say that it's still collusion, but collusion implies that what's going on is fraudulent. How can it be, if both players disregard the money and still play it out to the best of their individual efforts? You surely can't suggest that the sets that they play from that point out are "fake", just because they decided to split.

I say it's a combination of splitting primarily for monetary gain, AND a clear vision of "sandbagging", that makes the act of splitting wrong in most scenarios. Of course, when you bring up MLG, that was considered an act that went against MLG policies, morality be damned, so it's wrong by the simple act.

It's all obviously about perspective, of course. I truly believe that it's okay to split as long as both players are still throwing out 100% or more, because if you are pouring out all of your effort regardless, then the money is no longer a factor, thus splitting of said money shouldn't have any negative impact on the players.

But that's just how I feel. Again, if done in a setting like MLG, it's obviously wrong. But at grassroot tournaments and locals? Why should it be considered wrong in the circumstances I've described?



You're using that word again. You're trying to say that regardless of motive or circumstance, it's ALWAYS wrong.

On that note, would you be agreeing to the idea that the value and quality of our community is solely based on how we manage our money? Because that's what I'm hearing. Not to say that that's what I believe. I just want clarity on this.

My point is that not every split is done with ill intent.

Bracket manipulation is completely different. I don't see a possible reason for bracket manipulation to be done that's healthy for competition, or harmless to spirit of competition.
Quite frankly it comes down to this, even if you personally chose to take the high road while doing it and give it your all the fact remains that it encourages a practice in the community at large that effectively decides the outcome of a match behind the scenes.

This is just as important at all levels including locals because those tournaments are where the next generation of smashers develop, and this shapes their experiences about what is acceptable in the community at large.


I do not personally blame anyone for this, but that's really the point isn't it? It's not an individual that's at fault, it's the mentality of the community at large that allows this to occur.



But if it's perceived on the player, it'll eventually be linked back to the community the player affiliates themselves with. That's just the way people initially think. Wouldn't that natural train of thought lead to harm against the community regardless? How can you suggest otherwise?

I'm not asking rhetorical questions either. I really would like a response to the things I have asked about.
I misspoke, you're correct to a degree it does. However the level of damage to the community's image is greater by several orders of magnitude. A single player who is derided by all creates a relatively passing image. Consistent support by the community at large when a major scandal occurs? That will leave a lasting impression.


On that note, would you be agreeing to the idea that the value and quality of our community is solely based on how we manage our money? Because that's what I'm hearing. Not to say that that's what I believe. I just want clarity on this.
I wanted to answer this separately.

Yes I know our sole value is not dependent on this, but from outsiders (who we ultimately need to work with and have a good image in order to grow and network the community) all it takes is one area to ruin our rep.
 

Espy Rose

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Quite frankly it comes down to this, even if you personally chose to take the high road while doing it and give it your all the fact remains that it encourages a practice in the community at large that effectively decides the outcome of a match behind the scenes.
But splitting money does NOT decide the outcome of a match unless there is intention to sandbag/throw the match/etc.

Otherwise, the outcome is decided by the results screen.

To the rest of your post, I'll just agree to disagree with you.
I agree that in certain environments, that either act is definitely in the wrong regardless (MLG).

However, I honestly don't see why we should ever 100% deny someone a split, regardless of circumstances in general scenarios. You say it's ALWAYS wrong, and I just can't agree with you there in all of the possible circumstances.

It could also be my state that has influenced my opinion regarding this matter. In Texas, everyone is Power Ranked, and practically every tournament you enter effects your rating on the PR itself. Granted, a lot of people don't care about it, I still like to think it sparks competition amongst people.

I don't care particularly of my placement, but I'd be damned if I ever let anyone jump ahead of me on the chart without fighting tooth and nail for it. I want players to earn their placements. Because of that, I don't really see money as an issue, since I feel that the PR, in general, is an effective way of keeping the spirit of the competition alive without people having to worry about the cash. I can only hope that others in Texas feel the same way that I do about the issue.

That may be why I don't particularly care about the money splitting issue down here; because the Texas PR is enough of a drive for me to play at my best for the sake of others.

...kinda sounds corny now that I think about it.

=====

I mean, calling matches illegitimate just because of a split sounds odd to me. Me vs. K Prime and very recently, Me vs. Illmatic, felt very, very real to me.

=====

In any case, thanks for responding.
 

adumbrodeus

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But splitting money does NOT decide the outcome of a match unless there is intention to sandbag/throw the match/etc.

Otherwise, the outcome is decided by the results screen.

To the rest of your post, I'll just agree to disagree with you.
I agree that in certain environments, that either act is definitely in the wrong regardless (MLG).

However, I honestly don't see why we should ever 100% deny someone a split, regardless of circumstances in general scenarios. You say it's ALWAYS wrong, and I just can't agree with you there in all of the possible circumstances.

It could also be my state that has influenced my opinion regarding this matter. In Texas, everyone is Power Ranked, and practically every tournament you enter effects your rating on the PR itself. Granted, a lot of people don't care about it, I still like to think it sparks competition amongst people.

I don't care particularly of my placement, but I'd be damned if I ever let anyone jump ahead of me on the chart without fighting tooth and nail for it. I want players to earn their placements. Because of that, I don't really see money as an issue, since I feel that the PR, in general, is an effective way of keeping the spirit of the competition alive without people having to worry about the cash. I can only hope that others in Texas feel the same way that I do about the issue.

That may be why I don't particularly care about the money splitting issue down here; because the Texas PR is enough of a drive for me to play at my best for the sake of others.

...kinda sounds corny now that I think about it.

=====

I mean, calling matches illegitimate just because of a split sounds odd to me. Me vs. K Prime and very recently, Me vs. Illmatic, felt very, very real to me.

=====

In any case, thanks for responding.
Here's the thing, the American mentality is that the "result" is the money by splitting the money you acknowledge a shared result in the minds of the playerbase as a whole as well as outsiders (cue the endless debates about what would happen if they were "playing for real").


While you personally may believe that victory or loss is important regardless of money when the actual issue is the impression left on the playerbase as a whole, splitting remains an issue.
 

Espy Rose

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I doubt that is something considered as an "American" mentality. Sounds more like a personal belief like my own.

That, and your sentence structure confused me, honestly. Can you clarify what you mean in the second piece? Because at this point, from what I'm assuming, you're trying to say that everyone believes that splitting is bad, regardless of circumstance.

It'd only leave an impression if people gave it that negative picture. Not everyone does this. If everyone did, splitting would prohibited at this point in time across the nation, not just in pockets.
 

Trent

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I second Espy. Even if I'm playing in a $5 entry fee tournament and the prize is only like $15 or something, I still play as hard as I can because:

1) I'll get better
2) My opponent (Friend or not) will get better
3) The PR thing Espy brought up
4) No matter the monetary value, getting first is always the goal. Even if I wouldn't win any money, I'd still want that First place just to have it.

I feel a majority of Brawl players feel this way too. My two cents on the subject.
 

adumbrodeus

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I doubt that is something considered as an "American" mentality. Sounds more like a personal belief like my own.

That, and your sentence structure confused me, honestly. Can you clarify what you mean in the second piece? Because at this point, from what I'm assuming, you're trying to say that everyone believes that splitting is bad, regardless of circumstance.

It'd only leave an impression if people gave it that negative picture. Not everyone does this. If everyone did, splitting would prohibited at this point in time across the nation, not just in pockets.
Maybe this would be a good reason to poll the competitive gaming public at large, but looking at the cultural conventions that American gamers tend to follow (as well as criticisms applied to us from outside) I believe this is a very pervasive mentality, which is why Japan can have a viable competitive community without money, whereas we need it and Europe feels no need to split to anywhere near the degree we do.


Competitive games that aren't smash that hold tournaments for money in my experience near universally disagree with splitting and hold a similar conviction that I do as far as the reasons. They classify it as similar to bracket manipulations. Smash however has an absolutely opposite prospective on splitting and it is almost universal.


Granted, this could be confirmation bias, I don't have statistics to back this up, but my anecdotal evidence of personal experience heavily suggests it.
 

da K.I.D.

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personally in the few times that I have split with people, ive done so so that:

1. the tournament doesnt run till 4 am. (this is important)
2. I know Im getting money and I dont have that looming over my head while im playing my matches, and in that vein, splitting makes me play BETTER, because i dont have added stress.

also, you gotta realise, in most other communities like SF and halo. the best people are sponsored. which means as long as they place in the money or relatively high, theyre catching a check regardless, where as with grass roots stuff like smash, one game and one mistake could be the difference between taking home 200$ and taking home 50-60 bucks. which a lot of the time for me would barely cover travel and food and entry costs. So if I have the chance to decide between, possibly coming out in the red for my trip, or guaranteeing that I make money, especially if its against somebody I know is a better player than me, then im gonna take the guarantee.

Now dont get 'i know that person is better than me' confused with 'theres no way that ill beat them.' I could be fighting against somebody that I think i have a very good reasonable chance at beating, id still rather take the guaranteed money, because then even if I do lose itll just be a matter of, 'man i didnt win that tourney, i need to get better' as opposed to a matter of ' wtf?! that one game costed me 150$!'

Im the type thats going to go full force on anybody all the time. friendlies, money match or other wise. so taking a way a factor that may take away from my level of play is always a plus.

also, sometimes we have a 12-15 year old coming out to a tournament, and they cant always stay out till 2 am to finish a tourney the way us adults can. are you saying spliting with them when their mom shows up to take them home is a bad thing? what are you going to do? try and argue with somebody's parents about the spirit of competitive gaming?
 

B_AWAL

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Ok... here's what u guys are forgetting...

The issue in which a fellow sonic main was screwed was in pools. Which is completely different than "splitting" yeah sure @ the end of the day its unfair 2 d1aos but he had his chance 2 beat each and everu player & yes if I had the chance id give up a set anyday 2 a fellow sonic or fl player because id rather they make it 2 the next round of pools or brackets 4 more experience.

Splittin finals between your friends is understandable because at the end of the day this is just a game a friendship should be greater than that(this game & $$$ in general). however both players should play their best and give everyone else a show because if not then they are laughing at everyone who is not in grand finals.

The reason why I say that there is a difference in pools than tourny is because at the end of the day if u just win you will be on top. Once you are there of course your going to want your friends to be there with you.

Otherwise you don't know what the **** being a friend is.

Its w/e idrc anyway cuz I can't really travel 2 much. But that's my 2 cents. Hope it helps
 

Kuraudo

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Ok... here's what u guys are forgetting...

The issue in which a fellow sonic main was screwed was in pools. Which is completely different than "splitting" yeah sure @ the end of the day its unfair 2 d1aos but he had his chance 2 beat each and everu player & yes if I had the chance id give up a set anyday 2 a fellow sonic or fl player because id rather they make it 2 the next round of pools or brackets 4 more experience.

Splittin finals between your friends is understandable because at the end of the day this is just a game a friendship should be greater than that(this game & $$$ in general). however both players should play their best and give everyone else a show because if not then they are laughing at everyone who is not in grand finals.

The reason why I say that there is a difference in pools than tourny is because at the end of the day if u just win you will be on top. Once you are there of course your going to want your friends to be there with you.

Otherwise you don't know what the **** being a friend is.

Its w/e idrc anyway cuz I can't really travel 2 much. But that's my 2 cents. Hope it helps
I'm disappointed.
 

Tesh

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Its either a competition or its not. If you and your buddies play for fun, you shouldn't need to cheat, just have a good time and play as hard as you can. If its a competition, then you should respect that the better player should always be the win advancing.

In any case, the community has spoken on the issue. Its apparently perfectly fine to manipulate brackets and pools. So you better just win by a mile and keep yourself out of that situation.
 

Trent

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Ok... here's what u guys are forgetting...

The issue in which a fellow sonic main was screwed was in pools. Which is completely different than "splitting" yeah sure @ the end of the day its unfair 2 d1aos but he had his chance 2 beat each and everu player & yes if I had the chance id give up a set anyday 2 a fellow sonic or fl player because id rather they make it 2 the next round of pools or brackets 4 more experience.

Splittin finals between your friends is understandable because at the end of the day this is just a game a friendship should be greater than that(this game & $$$ in general). however both players should play their best and give everyone else a show because if not then they are laughing at everyone who is not in grand finals.

The reason why I say that there is a difference in pools than tourny is because at the end of the day if u just win you will be on top. Once you are there of course your going to want your friends to be there with you.

Otherwise you don't know what the **** being a friend is.

Its w/e idrc anyway cuz I can't really travel 2 much. But that's my 2 cents. Hope it helps
I'm also dissapointed. -.-
 

B_AWAL

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B upset b mad hate me or w/e all that matters in the competitive world is winning and losinf. What u do after u win is your choice. 4 you guys ill do my best at every tournament. But I don't honestly feel that u guys should put a competition over a friendship. But like I said... ill us give my all 4 u guys. & we gona agree 2 disagree cool? So now can we move on 2 more important matters like sonic results & ****...

Sidenote: I find it funny that I type proper when I'm drunk (like right now I'm so @ da club on spring break) & ways you all don't like when I'm not lol
 

Trent

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My friends would hate me if I let them win. Giving a friend a win they don't earn, how does that promote friendship? Also you're helping your friends cheat. I would not steal or commit a crime for my friends either (Unless under EXTREME circumstances).

It's whatever though, I've already beat this into the ground. Different cultures I suppose.
 

Tesh

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B upset b mad hate me or w/e all that matters in the competitive world is winning and losinf. What u do after u win is your choice. 4 you guys ill do my best at every tournament. But I don't honestly feel that u guys should put a competition over a friendship. But like I said... ill us give my all 4 u guys. & we gona agree 2 disagree cool? So now can we move on 2 more important matters like sonic results & ****...

Sidenote: I find it funny that I type proper when I'm drunk (like right now I'm so @ da club on spring break) & ways you all don't like when I'm not lol


You're friendship shouldn't be threatened by victory in a children's party game. Especially if you are old enough to get into a club and drink.
 

Kuraudo

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B upset b mad hate me or w/e all that matters in the competitive world is winning and losinf. What u do after u win is your choice. 4 you guys ill do my best at every tournament. But I don't honestly feel that u guys should put a competition over a friendship. But like I said... ill us give my all 4 u guys. & we gona agree 2 disagree cool? So now can we move on 2 more important matters like sonic results & ****...

Sidenote: I find it funny that I type proper when I'm drunk (like right now I'm so @ da club on spring break) & ways you all don't like when I'm not lol
Pfft. Hate you? that's just stupid. XD

We just disagree, that's all.

Something you should consider in regards to friendship and competition though, is that if you can't seperate them from each other in certain circumstances, then it's just a problem that hinders it all in the grand scheme of things.

Compete and show no mercy, and at the end of the day, win or lose, you're taking your buddy out for a meal or something fancy like that.
 

B_AWAL

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@tesh u win!!! I can't argue anymore after that pic LMFAO

@kurado dude it was jus me sayin that the discussion doesn't really matter. We r all sonic brothers so outside of the game ill care 4 u all the same(meaning if u visit tally ill let u into my parties 4 free and try 2 put u down with as many girls as I know) so regardless we disagree but let's get back onto 2 helping each other get better u kno? I come here & read a lot of what u all have 2 say and learn a lot. Idlike 2 keep it that way especially since I'm hosting a BIG tourney soon
 

Kuraudo

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Truth be told, I care if only for the sake of competition and trying my best, but meeting everyone (some of the people from Texas that I met at Genesis, for example) is a super high priority for me.

I'm gonna have a ****load of fun at this. Looking forward to meeting you, Trent. XD
 

Tesh

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Highest placing white Sonic contest is a go.

.....woohoo? LOL
Oh Trent is coming? Hellz yea.

I want money matches with every Sonic there (except Espy, he already whupped me in a set).

Hell we should just do a mini "sonic only" tournament round robin and see who kicks the most butt.

who is turbo? Is that Sonic storm?
 

Kuraudo

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I'm doin my best 2 be better than ALL of u & force every1 to realize why sonic os da best =)
That's the spirit!

Get past me first. ...once I start travelling in the states more or something. LOL

Mini Sonic tourney? .... I'm all for free for all Sonic dittos though. To prove who is superior.

KillLock was proven to be the best Ike in all of Canada this way. ...or was that Firefly...? I forget.
 

Mr. Johan

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I propose Sonic FFAs at Green Hill Zone with Smash Balls with each one of the Sonic mains as we wait for our matches.

Or the RR works too. No, I'm not Turbo. I wont be entering as Storm either. Just my own name.

I should really get that Premium, lol
 

SoupaSonic

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T.A.E.R. 5
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298918
March 5th, 2011
Out of 28

SoupaSonic :sonic: - 25th

...I did bad again...

But whatever, I had fun and got some good friendlies. I lost to Hinkage :metaknight: and Nacho :yoshi2:

I got 2 stocked on the live stream by Hinkage on SV and YI. I had a TON of trouble getting a kill move on him, I think he was at 150% at the end of both games. The replays got saved so I'll post them if they get uploaded

Then I played a Nacho, he beat me on SV then I took him to picto when he banned YI and I beat him. Now what happened next makes me feel really dumb lol. I was having a lot of fun in the match because it was just silly (we both didn't know anything about eachothers character) so I didn't really try to think what stage I should ban. This was a terrible mistake lol. As soon as he cp'd Delphino I remembered him 2 or 3 stocking Will there. I guess Yoshi has down b tricks there lol. So he ended up 2 stocking me winning the set.

It was fun though, I hope to make it past 13th some time soon lol
 

da K.I.D.

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does this mean its my turn to quote myself and note the below 13th place finish?

if so i think im going to have a lot of fun with this game.
 

SoupaSonic

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gj dude

does this mean its my turn to quote myself and note the below 13th place finish?

if so i think im going to have a lot of fun with this game.
I think everyone else here could do better than you think. In my defense I only have 4 tournies under my belt, I play wifi for practice, and I'm bad. Oh and I don't know matchups

Imma try to prove kid wrong soon, not that I have anything against him, I just want him to give some respect to the people he wants respect from
 
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