Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[SuSa]

I could've sworn I left you a message on your wall saying "Epic. It's just like Omni!"

I'm just visually an unmod. No staffer shack view like the others. I still don't know why they did it. I'm wondering what mod back their argued "Well, he's still an unmod..." like... seriously. Staff hates me. But they gave me back my unmod icon and my massive inbox (which was good, because it was full)

Then I decided to disable my wall/pm box for a few days regardless of me getting my inbox size back. Pissed a few people off, was fun. =P

Anyways, I can't fix my stupid Brawl disc. Otherwise I'd have given this a legit shot instead of trolling theorycrafting how much Snake owns.

 

[Espy Rose]

I actually delved into this 1.1 Ratio thing sometime last Friday.
At least when it came to Sonic, there were no differences in any of his attack patterns and combo setups aside from a few notable changes to his SDR knock back.

He KOs sooner, but not by much.

Overall, he doesn't seem to change much at all.

 

[Ripple]

Anyways, I can't fix my stupid Brawl disc. Otherwise I'd have given this a legit shot instead of trolling theorycrafting how much Snake owns.

what is an unmod?

and why not just take your disc to a family video to get it repaired for $2?

 

[SuSa]

An unmod is a mod who isn't a mod anymore. A retired mod pretty much. I'm a fired unmod, and only get the postbit+userbox size, but I've had my permission mask modified. They took out my staff permission mask.

Also because there isn't one of those around here. I've never even heard of family video. Also my disc is screwed. I think I need to buy a new one. I'm pissed about it because it's my cousins fault my disc went to hell.... I didn't touch the game for 9 months and had it in it's case. He played it and never put it back in it's case or something. -_-

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I actually delved into this 1.1 Ratio thing sometime last Friday.
At least when it came to Sonic, there were no differences in any of his attack patterns and combo setups aside from a few notable changes to his SDR knock back.

He KOs sooner, but not by much.

Overall, he doesn't seem to change much at all.

go on, whats a SDR?

 

[Ripple]

go on, whats a SDR?

spin dash release?

anyway, someone give me something to work on. IDK what else to test

 

[GimR]

give me a subject to test later today and I will

are all jab combos the same or better? For example, Luigi's jab to up-B. Usually it doesn't combo on MK.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

1. everyone dying earlier is actually a buff, but not to the players. it actually helps out TO's with a time restraint. How many tournaments have you been to that lasted until 2-3am? I know I've been to at least 4. with this it will actually allow a tournament to properly finish at least an hour and a half faster.

2. don't take it for face value. even if a couple match ups changed, we are looking at the whole picture. if more characters can put up a fight against MK then great. the game is more balanced, which was our goal. it'd be even better if MK dropped a tier.

Latest I've ever been was 12. And really I think it's players not doing there matches when they should be for it even going as long as 12, that or starting tournaments at 4-5 PM with a large amount of people going to the tournament.


The loss of CG's helps characters, but at the same time it hurts the CGers against characters like MK when he can even get out and not have to worry about taking 50% from a grab.

I still don't think this nerfs MK that much if at all. I'm not sure if people can get out of Tornado if you trap them on the sides of it, otherwise even at 1.0 people can get out. His range is still as obnoxious as ever, Peach can kill him better, but she still loses for the same reasons like she did before, Lucario still has trouble his his ground moves, Falco has to rely on his lasers and zoning alone now that he lost his CG, Link still get gimped and juggled, I think it's even easier to gimp Link in 1.1 tbh.

Just listing characters I play, but really I haven't felt like anyone gained anything that helped against MK.

Better priority? Are you kidding me? Jiggs has better priority than Wario on all aerials except U-air (D-air is arguable, but the difference is too small to justify). Don't make up random things. And Wario has nothing remotely close to how good Pound is for breaking zoning. And Wario's ground game isn't better than Jiggs's. Wario only has a better F-smash. Jiggs has a MUCH better Dash Attack and thus has the advantage whiff punishing on the ground. Both have good grab range and above average damage throws.

And you're overrating how much weight actually matters. Wario at any rate is easier for several characters to kill assuming he gets air released from grab.

Pound is a huge disjoint and sweetspots the ledge from ******** distances that no character wants to challenge. And my point is Wario's mobility isn't justifiably better than Jiggs's. Anyone who claims Wario can camp and Jiggs can't fails horribly in logic.

Her pound has nice priority and eats shields, shame it leaves her very vulnerable and relying on it makes her very predictable.

You know what Wario has for breaking zones, weight, a good air dodge, air momentum and an amazing mix-up grab.

His weight let him live way longer and makes him not the lightest character in the game.

Guys, Guys. Let's not get off topic. This discussion isn't about who's a better planker.

It's not off topic actually, he claimed jiggs was better in 1.1 because she can camp and has a better camp game than Wario, many people pointed out why he's wrong.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

spin dash release?

anyway, someone give me something to work on. IDK what else to test

low tier characters, and ice climbers. iirc i could DI out of links usmash at higher %s

 

[Exceladon City]

go on, whats a SDR?

spin dash release?

anyway, someone give me something to work on. IDK what else to test

Geez...D3 I thought you would've known as much as you're in the Sonic boards. It's Spin Dash Roll.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

^^^^ i dont play sonic and i havent exactly memorized his technical mojo

The loss of CG's helps characters, but at the same time it hurts the CGers against characters like MK when he can even get out and not have to worry about taking 50% from a grab.

I still don't think this nerfs MK that much if at all. I'm not sure if people can get out of Tornado if you trap them on the sides of it, otherwise even at 1.0 people can get out. His range is still as obnoxious as ever, Peach can kill him better, but she still loses for the same reasons like she did before, Lucario still has trouble his his ground moves, Falco has to rely on his lasers and zoning alone now that he lost his CG, Link still get gimped and juggled, I think it's even easier to gimp Link in 1.1 tbh.

this isnt just all about MK. The only mu where mk has to keep away at low % would be technically pika/falco. Even in 1.1 both these characters do still get at least 2 to 3 grabs n a follow up combo which is really all they'll need if their opponent dies sooner anyway.

and no its been proven you cannot sdi out of MKs tornado at 1.0

 

[A2ZOMG]

Jigglypuff cannot fall fast enough to make the best out of her aerial mobility. Vertically spacing Jigglypuff isn't hard at all compared to Wario.

Jiggs however has multiple jumps, and thus hovers in blind zones much more effectively. I think it's a fair trade.

So why aren't more Jigglypuffs placing as well as Wario?

Please know what you're talking about. Wario is better than Jiggs in 1.0, but in 1.1? Nah, Jiggs is probably better. And Jiggs players should be placing better in 1.0. They beat Diddy Kong for that matter.

Oh yeah... because she has horrid range, can't make use of her airgame (IIRC her airdodge is worse than Wario's), her spotdodge is one of the worst in the game, her rolls both suck, her fastfall sucks, she has two highly situational and mostly useless moves (up/down-B), Rollout is arguably just as useless (not hard to see coming)

Her airdodge is just fine. You can literally fastfall airdodge and powershield some moves because her land animation ducks under many attacks. And most characters have no business challenging her horizontal mobility and zoning anyway, so it's a very irrelevant problem. Besides, she hovers so well in blindzones that her poor fastfall barely matters. And besides, Wario has worse range than her.

You really shouldn't rely on spotdodge if you're a good player, but her spotdodge while lower on invulnerability has normal duration. Bowser has the worst spotdodge at any rate. Rolling is also a generally unfavorable options, and Wario also has mediocre rolls, so I don't get your argument. Wario's spotdodge has average frames anyhow, just almost nobody punishes it correctly (if you're a character with an autoJab and NOT punishing Wario's spotdodge, you're doing it wrong).

Rest isn't useless, but yes highly situational. It can however be comboed into with a safe move (D-air).

She dies earlier, even if it's not guarenteed from a grab - she can't even approach Snake, so Snake doesn't need to grab her to utilt.

Really? You must be joking. I'm not saying Jiggs of course wins against Snake, but you really can't wall this character at all if the person using her has a brain. Between high mobility, Pound, above average grab range, and good spacers, this character is one of the most difficult in the game to wall.

As far as zoning goes, Wario's air mobility + ability to fastfall let's him get past zoning. Jigglypuff has to rely on pound, which leaves her open.

Did you realize that Jiggs actually uses that option pretty well too? And has the option of automatic powershields via landing frame exploits? And besides Jiggs's aerials are MUCH harder to wall in the first place.

Wario has bite

Bite is an overrated move that only is good against bad approaches.

Her pound has nice priority and eats shields, shame it leaves her very vulnerable and relying on it makes her very predictable.

Doesn't matter. Jiggs gets in on every character in the game STUPIDLY easily due to the threat of that move alone. And then I'll go back to my argument of hovering in blindzones, abusing airdodge + landing frames, and generally good aerials.

You know what Wario has for breaking zones, weight, a good air dodge, air momentum and an amazing mix-up grab.

Weight is not a tool for breaking zoning unless it makes moves unsafe on hit. Good airdodges are nice, but not a real tool against good players for the most part. And Wario's Bite should really never be used for breaking zoning against anyone good.

His weight let him live way longer and makes him not the lightest character in the game.

which matters why? Jiggs is harder to combo and doesn't get grab released into nonsense to the extent Wario does.

It's not off topic actually, he claimed jiggs was better in 1.1 because she can camp and has a better camp game than Wario, many people pointed out why he's wrong.

Who else wants to give me their "logic"?

In short most people seem to think Jiggs is terrible for incorrect reasons. The top three reasons I'm getting are basically:

1. poor priority
2. bad options for breaking zoning
3. isn't able to stall

All of which are COMPLETELY not true. These are things she actually has better tools for than Wario.

Wario is only better than Jiggs in 1.0 since his strengths are more exaggerated in that game. In 1.1 where low percent combos and spacing/offstage oriented KOs matter more, two things which make Jiggs different from Wario, Jiggs is almost certainly a better character than Wario.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

this isnt just all about MK. The only mu where mk has to keep away at low % would be technically pika/falco. Even in 1.1 both these characters do still get at least 2 to 3 grabs n a follow up combo which is really all they'll need if their opponent dies sooner anyway.

and no its been proven you cannot sdi out of MKs tornado at 1.0

Both characters lose 12-16% off of the CGs, with paired with the lower % killing means either very little has changed I guess, but I'll wait and see how it plays out.

You can SDI out if they use Tornado in 1.0 wrong, tornado should trap people on the sides and I'm not sure characters can sdi out if MK traps them correctly.

 

[SuSa]

You're misunderstanding the reasons.

• 1. Poor range (not priority, Wario suffers from range too)
• 2. Poor dodging capabilities. Her airdodge, roll, and spotdodge are ****ing horrible. She's also the only character in the game who dies from her shield being broken. In a game that you die sooner WHEN YOU'RE ALREADY THE LIGHTEST CHARACTER (or 2nd lightest, I forget if G&W is lighter...but he has bucket breaking); dying SOONER because you cannot BLOCK/DODGE is NOT GOOD.
• 3. She is able to stall, but first she has to take the lead (then keep it) | Good luck. This involves dodging. Something Wario can do better.

You're theorycrafting way to ****ing much. That researcher title going to your brain man? Have you ever had a tournament placing above 5th place? Have you (or do you) play as Jigglypuff or Wario? I used to be like Ninjalink. I mained Random for a good 8 months. The only character I feel uncomfortable about discussing anything is Yoshi. But when it comes to theorycrafting, I know my place among characters that aren't Snake. I don't know every character inside and out, but I know them on a basic enough level to know their options, spacing, flaws, and pros.

However - everywhere I see you go - people are noticing it as well as I am. Your theorycrafting is simply bad. You overrate Jigglypuff's pound, mobility (which is only horizontally and airborne, mind you), and the effects a 1.1 ratio would have on her compared to Wario.

Jigglypuff dying at below 70% is hilarious. Especially when she relies solely on getting in on her opponent (which Wario can do better, due to his ability to dodge and fastfall).

I'm going to go ahead and agree with practically everyone I've seen you argue with (Ripple, Nidtendo, Flayl) and just stop arguing with you. It's pointless, and you refuse to ever be wrong - even when major flaws in your theorycrafting are pointed out.

Good day A2. Maybe we'll see eachother in tourney and we can play some 1.1 DR and you can prove me wrong.

 

[Laem]

a2z, stop being hilarious

jiggz is like the worst char in the game and 1.1 makes it worse

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Both characters lose 12-16% off of the CGs, with paired with the lower % killing means either very little has changed I guess, but I'll wait and see how it plays out.

You can SDI out if they use Tornado in 1.0 wrong, tornado should trap people on the sides and I'm not sure characters can sdi out if MK traps them correctly.

small characters might, given the right theoycrafted situation. However most good MKs will nado in such a way that you cannot escape. Medium and Heavy weights, really when it comes to nado we have to get ridiculously lucky or the MK has to be a complete idiot.

Actually with Falco and pikachu they lose...about 30%-40% ish across the board i'd say. Falco can CG DDD up till about 64% with Dthrow. In 1.1 he can only get up to 17%. However he can still combo it into a dacus for like 47%? Pikachus dthrow on fox goes till 100% range, in 1.1 he only gets 41% and can follow up with an aerial combo if he wishes. Thats almost halfed.

IC we've yet to confirm anything really.

DDD from what ive tested his CGs remain unchanged except for TLs being frame perfect possibly in 1.1 and Marth being unCGable in 1.1

And most Air release CG, pummel release CG, should still remain the same.

 

[AfroQT]

Jiggs however has multiple jumps, and thus hovers in blind zones much more effectively. I think it's a fair trade.

Please know what you're talking about. Wario is better than Jiggs in 1.0, but in 1.1? Nah, Jiggs is probably better. And Jiggs players should be placing better in 1.0. They beat Diddy Kong for that matter.

Her airdodge is just fine. You can literally fastfall airdodge and powershield some moves because her land animation ducks under many attacks. And most characters have no business challenging her horizontal mobility and zoning anyway, so it's a very irrelevant problem. Besides, she hovers so well in blindzones that her poor fastfall barely matters. And besides, Wario has worse range than her.

You really shouldn't rely on spotdodge if you're a good player, but her spotdodge while lower on invulnerability has normal duration. Bowser has the worst spotdodge at any rate. Rolling is also a generally unfavorable options, and Wario also has mediocre rolls, so I don't get your argument. Wario's spotdodge has average frames anyhow, just almost nobody punishes it correctly (if you're a character with an autoJab and NOT punishing Wario's spotdodge, you're doing it wrong).

Rest isn't useless, but yes highly situational. It can however be comboed into with a safe move (D-air).

Really? You must be joking. I'm not saying Jiggs of course wins against Snake, but you really can't wall this character at all if the person using her has a brain. Between high mobility, Pound, above average grab range, and good spacers, this character is one of the most difficult in the game to wall.

Did you realize that Jiggs actually uses that option pretty well too? And has the option of automatic powershields via landing frame exploits? And besides Jiggs's aerials are MUCH harder to wall in the first place.

Bite is an overrated move that only is good against bad approaches.

Doesn't matter. Jiggs gets in on every character in the game STUPIDLY easily due to the threat of that move alone. And then I'll go back to my argument of hovering in blindzones, abusing airdodge + landing frames, and generally good aerials.

Weight is not a tool for breaking zoning unless it makes moves unsafe on hit. Good airdodges are nice, but not a real tool against good players for the most part. And Wario's Bite should really never be used for breaking zoning against anyone good.

which matters why? Jiggs is harder to combo and doesn't get grab released into nonsense to the extent Wario does.

Who else wants to give me their "logic"?

In short most people seem to think Jiggs is terrible for incorrect reasons. The top three reasons I'm getting are basically:

1. poor priority
2. bad options for breaking zoning
3. isn't able to stall

All of which are COMPLETELY not true. These are things she actually has better tools for than Wario.

Wario is only better than Jiggs in 1.0 since his strengths are more exaggerated in that game. In 1.1 where low percent combos and spacing/offstage oriented KOs matter more, two things which make Jiggs different from Wario, Jiggs is almost certainly a better character than Wario.

OH YEAH WELL IM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG.
Get at me they made Ace Attorney cuz of me whats good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You're misunderstanding the reasons.

• 1. Poor range (not priority, Wario suffers from range too)
• 2. Poor dodging capabilities. Her airdodge, roll, and spotdodge are ****ing horrible. She's also the only character in the game who dies from her shield being broken. In a game that you die sooner WHEN YOU'RE ALREADY THE LIGHTEST CHARACTER (or 2nd lightest, I forget if G&W is lighter...but he has bucket breaking); dying SOONER because you cannot BLOCK/DODGE is NOT GOOD.
• 3. She is able to stall, but first she has to take the lead (then keep it) | Good luck. This involves dodging. Something Wario can do better.

Nobody good ever suffers from a broken shield. And relying on dodges is bad. Don't pretend that relying on dodges is a good thing. The only time it sucks is if you're Bowser, a character who actually NEEDS good dodges but has THE WORST ONES IN THE GAME.

And Jiggs gets the lead STUPIDLY easily in almost every matchup. She's one of the hardest characters in the game to wall, and she's very hard to hit if she is playing keep away. I'd say she's much better at getting the lead reliably than Wario to be honest.

You're theorycrafting way to ****ing much. That researcher title going to your brain man? Have you ever had a tournament placing above 5th place? Have you (or do you) play as Jigglypuff or Wario? I used to be like Ninjalink. I mained Random for a good 8 months. The only character I feel uncomfortable about discussing anything is Yoshi. But when it comes to theorycrafting, I know my place among characters that aren't Snake. I don't know every character inside and out, but I know them on a basic enough level to know their options, spacing, flaws, and pros.

I'm a little bit surprised at how awful you are at understanding options. Adumbrodeus and I both agree Jiggs is a legit character that simple lacks any legit players who understand how to use her options optimally.

However - everywhere I see you go - people are noticing it as well as I am. Your theorycrafting is simply bad. You overrate Jigglypuff's pound, mobility (which is only horizontally and airborne, mind you), and the effects a 1.1 ratio would have on her compared to Wario.

If I'm to understand correctly, Jiggs gets two main things from 1.1. A much more reliable F-air KO, and a more reliable B-air combo. Those two things are HUGE when playing against Jiggs. Much more important than anything else Wario has.

Jigglypuff dying at below 70% is hilarious. Especially when she relies solely on getting in on her opponent (which Wario can do better, due to his ability to dodge and fastfall).

Jiggs has multiple jumps and landing frame shenanigans and MUCH superior zoning aerials. And you're saying Wario clearly breaks zoning better?

a2z, stop being hilarious

jiggz is like the worst char in the game and 1.1 makes it worse

Jiggs beats Diddy and 80/20s Ganon (Ganon loses to Wario about 6/4, he's allowed to wall Wario with reverse U-air and get dumb grab release kills). Why do you keep trying to insist Jiggs is horrible when it's clear her options are leagues better than that of a character who actually is horrible?

 

[Dark 3nergy]

CGs,

oh yea just to tickle your fancy, i messed around with lucarios FP @ 1.1 and the KB at low % seems pretty unchanged.

 

[Exalted]

Ganon's Dair would have ridiculous hitstun on 1.1.

 

[SuSa]

Nobody good ever suffers from a broken shield. And relying on dodges is bad. Don't pretend that relying on dodges is a good thing. The only time it sucks is if you're Bowser, a character who actually NEEDS good dodges but has THE WORST ONES IN THE GAME.

And Jiggs gets the lead STUPIDLY easily in almost every matchup. She's one of the hardest characters in the game to wall, and she's very hard to hit if she is playing keep away. I'd say she's much better at getting the lead reliably than Wario to be honest.

I'm a little bit surprised at how awful you are at understanding options. Adumbrodeus and I both agree Jiggs is a legit character that simple lacks any legit players who understand how to use her options optimally.

If I'm to understand correctly, Jiggs gets two main things from 1.1. A much more reliable F-air KO, and a more reliable B-air combo. Those two things are HUGE when playing against Jiggs. Much more important than anything else Wario has.

Jiggs has multiple jumps and landing frame shenanigans and MUCH superior zoning aerials. And you're saying Wario clearly breaks zoning better?

Jiggs beats Diddy and 80/20s Ganon (Ganon loses to Wario about 6/4, he's allowed to wall Wario with reverse U-air and get dumb grab release kills). Why do you keep trying to insist Jiggs is horrible when it's clear her options are leagues better than that of a character who actually is horrible?

You've obviously never seen people vs MikeHaze. I'm not saying to rely on dodges. They are needed. Try playing a game without using L/R ever. Jiggs.. one of the hardest to wall? Not really... she has issues approaching. Because she can't dodge.

The only characters Jigglypuff is good in 1.0 are the lower tiers. In 1.1, it's not going to change. If she cannot approach in 1.0, she cannot approach in 1.1. If anything, approaching is going to be harder. Her only kill move is only made a little better, but that doesn't make is easier to land.

[Who does't 80/20 Ganon? Since when did a matchup with Ganon matter?

Seriously A2. Get the stick out of your ***, stop thinking your cyan name suddenly makes your theorycrafting better, and realize Jiggs is a **** character. Slightly better in 1.1? Perhaps. But barely. All 1.1 does is change knockback. If you can't reliably hit the opponent it's not going to help you. AT ALL.

Seriously, I want to see you place well with Jiggs. In 1.0 or 1.1, doesn't matter. Go prove to the world she's so much better than Wario, can camp awesome, and can take (and maintain) the lead. Better yet, lurk the Jigglypuff board (you know, the place I used to mod because I secondaried her?) and found out how much her mains know she sucks. It's a ****ing joke.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Ganon's Dair would have ridiculous hitstun on 1.1.

IIRC someone already said that it kills Snake at 90%. Waaaaaay cool. But imagine gimping w/ Tipman. Suddenly our gimps are way more effective. Hyez.

 

[SuSa]

IIRC someone already said that it kills Snake at 90%. Waaaaaay cool. But imagine gimping w/ Tipman. Suddenly our gimps are way more effective. Hyez.

This doesn't change the fact that anyone who understands Ganon's flaws would sit there and shield every single one of your moves (except 1?)

Curse Ganon's slower-than-reaction-speed startups on every single one of his moves. Once someone understands that can sit there and do nothing but react, or shield+punish Ganon. He suddenly loses his only chance at winning that matchup. Which is the opponents lack of knowledge of how to play the matchup.

Ganon has no shenanigans (see: Diddy Kong's Bananas) to abuse. He has no super awesome planking. He has no super awesome air game. He has no super awesome ground game. Oh yah... Ganon's just Ganon, and we know he's bad. Increased hitstun won't make up for the fact that he shouldn't be hitting the opponent.

Ever.

/if you don't count blowing myself up, I've JV 4 stocked Ganons. Some of which have beaten me with their secondaries. Ganon's just THAT BAD. His grab range his horrible as well. You can't even bait a shield because the opponent shouldn't be shielding until they see an attack being thrown out.

It comes down purely to punishing an opponent for poor spacing and/or not knowing the matchup. Which again, comes down to people just not knowing the matchup and trying to be offensive when they can just sit back and punish everything Ganon tries to throw out. I really wish this was extreme theorycrafting but it's happened to me and I've done it to others. =\ It's practical....

 

[A2ZOMG]

You've obviously never seen people vs MikeHaze. I'm not saying to rely on dodges. They are needed. Try playing a game without using L/R ever. Jiggs.. one of the hardest to wall? Not really... she has issues approaching. Because she can't dodge.

Jiggs dodges just fine, and rarely needs to due to high mobility and good aerials.

[Who does't 80/20 Ganon? Since when did a matchup with Ganon matter?

Wario actually doesn't **** Ganon. Ganon can score the lead against him with a damage trade and then camp with reverse U-air, severely limiting Wario's approach options (covers everything from air to ground, has only about 11 frames of ending lag, so generally won't be whiff punished). And grab release kills. These are problems Jiggs doesn't have.

Bowser also goes even with Ganon.

Seriously A2. Get the stick out of your ***, stop thinking your cyan name suddenly makes your theorycrafting better, and realize Jiggs is a **** character. Slightly better in 1.1? Perhaps. But barely. All 1.1 does is change knockback. If you can't reliably hit the opponent it's not going to help you. AT ALL.

my name has nothing to do with anything. I've always believed in furthering knowledge of this game, and I only have the Cyan name so that I can better work on hacks.

And Jiggs lands hits stupidly easily. So what's the point?

Seriously, I want to see you place well with Jiggs. In 1.0 or 1.1, doesn't matter. Go prove to the world she's so much better than Wario, can camp awesome, and can take (and maintain) the lead. Better yet, lurk the Jigglypuff board (you know, the place I used to mod because I secondaried her?) and found out how much her mains know she sucks. It's a ****ing joke.

[/color]

The Jiggs boards are stupid as hell. They don't understand matchups.

 

[SuSa]

Maybe you should go help the Jiggs boards out than. (I participated in many of their matchup discussions btw, and I've played Jiggs. Remember. Random main. The only character I don't feel comfortable playing in tournament is Yoshi. Then it comes down to playing at high levels of play in tournament, and I only feel comfortable to do that with IC's, Diddy Kong, Snake, Sheik, and Pit.

Jigglypuff is also my Low Tier tournament main. That being said, she sucks in those too. Even just approaching a good Mario is ****ing impossible. (Hi vato) I can't even beat players whom I know I'm much better than (see: 3 stock in normal tourney) because of how much she sucks. And I play as gay as possible. If I get the % lead, I run away and plank. Once I get a stock lead, I'll float around forever and borderline-stall. The problem?

Getting the lead.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Nobody good ever suffers from a broken shield. And relying on dodges is bad. Don't pretend that relying on dodges is a good thing. The only time it sucks is if you're Bowser, a character who actually NEEDS good dodges but has THE WORST ONES IN THE GAME.

Ally broke Nick Riddles shield at MLG Columbus in losers finals with a dair and a nade, I've seen Marth mains break peoples shields with shield breaker and mindgamed B reversals. As rare as it is, it happens, the fact she gets an instant death from it is a fact.

Having a good dodge is an option, of course you shouldn't rely on it, just like you shouldn't rely on a lot of things in this game

And Jiggs gets the lead STUPIDLY easily in almost every matchup. She's one of the hardest characters in the game to wall, and she's very hard to hit if she is playing keep away. I'd say she's much better at getting the lead reliably than Wario to be honest.

You have got to be kidding here.

Link can even wall her out...Link of all people, only reason I think it's near even is the fact she can gimp Link in a way that is similar to how MK does it. Marth plays keep out and she has major trouble getting in.

If she is playing keep away hitting her is semi hard...so you follow her around and her slow landing speed and knock her. This is why Wario's weight is very good for him, he has so much control over his movement in the air, he can fastfall to land, not fast fall and float down, swerve in and out with good dodges and has a much better ground game, I'm just going to say your wrong on this one straight up.

I'm a little bit surprised at how awful you are at understanding options. Adumbrodeus and I both agree Jiggs is a legit character that simple lacks any legit players who understand how to use her options optimally.

Then go do it.

Otherwise your playing theory craft, which loses to hard core evidence. Every. Single. Time.

This is why I avoid theory craft when possible, it's just that a theory.

If I'm to understand correctly, Jiggs gets two main things from 1.1. A much more reliable F-air KO, and a more reliable B-air combo. Those two things are HUGE when playing against Jiggs. Much more important than anything else Wario has.

Yeah cause it's not like Wario has a bite or anything to stop people from being shield campy...oh wait. And what can jiggs do to theaten a shield...pound? Ok if she wants to make herself a big target to OoS options.

Wario can mix up his approaches where as Jigglypuff is very more linear in her's. Honestly if you think living twice as long, having better mix-ups, an actual ground game, and reliable killers, a great keep away game < her fair, bair and camping.

Then I don't know what to say to you.

Jiggs has multiple jumps and landing frame shenanigans and MUCH superior zoning aerials. And you're saying Wario clearly breaks zoning better?

Well to repeat Susa, Ripple, myself, and Nidtendo are saying.

YES!

Jiggs beats Diddy and 80/20s Ganon (Ganon loses to Wario about 6/4, he's allowed to wall Wario with reverse U-air and get dumb grab release kills). Why do you keep trying to insist Jiggs is horrible when it's clear her options are leagues better than that of a character who actually is horrible?

Wanna know why Ganon vs Wario is 6:4, which I doubt it's that good for Ganon, he has a grab release infinite/small step on Wario that ends with a Fsmash.

She doesn't have an 8:2 on Ganon.

Diddy doesn't lose to Jigglypuff like people thought in the past, people got wise.

 

[Pierce7d]

rofl, Jiggs is bad. If you cannot see why Jiggs is bad, you still have quite a good bit of studying to do, and you perhaps overestimate how well you know the game.

Wario's overall mobility (both horizontal and vertical) is greater than Jigglypuff's. Bite is an UNDERRATED move (and is better than Pound, btw, although Pound is a good move). Wario's Dair is a lot better than Jiggs (like -4 on block).

Also, it should be OBVIOUS that when comparing two characters with few disjoints, designed to weave in on their opponents and focus on primarily punishing that WEIGHT is a super important factor.

If Wario never approaches Ganon, it's unwinnable for Ganon.
Diddy beats Jiggs solidly.
Link has a JOB if you think he can easily wall out Jiggs, but he can defend himself.
Jiggs should not get her shield broken at high level play.

However, based off theory, I can say Jiggs probably gets a slight boost in this format. I'm unsure how Wario would perform, but camping till Fart is even more of a powerful strategy if Fart kills even earlier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

small characters might, given the right theoycrafted situation. However most good MKs will nado in such a way that you cannot escape. Medium and Heavy weights, really when it comes to nado we have to get ridiculously lucky or the MK has to be a complete idiot.

Pretty much.

Actually with Falco and pikachu they lose...about 30%-40% ish across the board i'd say. Falco can CG DDD up till about 64% with Dthrow. In 1.1 he can only get up to 17%. However he can still combo it into a dacus for like 47%? Pikachus dthrow on fox goes till 100% range, in 1.1 he only gets 41% and can follow up with an aerial combo if he wishes. Thats almost halfed.

I'm not sure about the follow-ups, most of them rely on reading DI to work, like with Lucario in 1.0 Falco gets 2 Dthrows and a Dair, nothing is guaranteed after that if Lucario DIs up and away from Falco.

IC we've yet to confirm anything really.

DDD from what ive tested his CGs remain unchanged except for TLs being frame perfect possibly in 1.1 and Marth being unCGable in 1.1

And most Air release CG, pummel release CG, should still remain the same.

TL is near frame perfect...ouch.

Not surprised on the air and ground releases.

oh yea just to tickle your fancy, i messed around with lucarios FP @ 1.1 and the KB at low % seems pretty unchanged.

Like I thought, still isn't a CG in 1.1 like it isn't in 1.0.

I'm sick of people not knowing how to get out of it and thinking it works.

But still, knowing his FP is similar is nice, with more shield stun he could trap people in shield and get a frame 1 force palm off...just wishful thinking probably not.

Either way I'll just look around here to see what happens.

Link has a JOB if you think he can easily wall out Jiggs, but he can defend himself.

Not easily, but he can wall her. He can't do this to Wario which is pretty much key in showing which is better at approaching and playing keep away.

 

[Pierce7d]

Back on topic. I neglected to play this format with ADHD, because we were training for MLG but I DID play against CPU MK, and I was able to SDI out of Fair when I tried. I'm unsure if I'm able to do this normally, but when I was actively attempting it, I could. I would presume I can SDI out of Ftilt a bit easier as well (I could do this before but it's difficult). However, this isn't just given to you with no effort. That's good IMO.

Also, Force Palm CG can be mashed out of, if you didn't know, so it's not like you're losing a powerful tool against people that know the MU.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hm, just thinking about character's jab combos in general: who has jabs with lots of knockback in the first or second hit? Obviously ZSS has lol knockback, which is why it actually works somewhat in 1.1...Like, I would imagine Luigi's would still work for example, but I'm not positive that Wario's or Bowser's would work at later percents.

 

[SuSa]

A2 vs SWF | A2 is obviously correct.

Pierce can't hear me, but even he should know CPU's are pretty bad testing for anything. Although if you could DI/SDI out of it before - it'd only be the same, if not easier, to do so with increased knockback.

Duh.

PS:

I finally thought of a nerf for Snake. His jab. Currently it's on par with Zamus for worst jab in game...... haha...outside of first hit, it's useless. With increased KB however, Jab-->grab or Jab-->Ftilt (which neither are really guarenteed AFAIK, we never did frame by frame testing for them) are less viable. Considering they were hardly viable in 1.0

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Also, Force Palm CG can be mashed out of, if you didn't know, so it's not like you're losing a powerful tool against people that know the MU.

Of course.

If anything I'm sick of people not knowing they can mash out.

 

[Pierce7d]

Hm, just thinking about character's jab combos in general: who has jabs with lots of knockback in the first or second hit? Obviously ZSS has lol knockback, which is why it actually works somewhat in 1.1...Like, I would imagine Luigi's would still work for example, but I'm not positive that Wario's or Bowser's would work at later percents.

I thought it was tested that some jabs (like Mario's) are nerfed, while some jabs, (like Snake and ZSS) now connect in ways they didn't before.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Spoiler

I always thought Snake had a decent jab. >_> Whoops?

How would Mario's be nerfed? It doesn't seem to have a lot of knockback to it. Like, how low on knockback does it need to be to at least break even?

 

[Pierce7d]

Snake's jab is not bad. His Jab 1 is good, and this leads to good jab cancels. But jab 1-3 didn't connect well.

I'm not sure about the numbers, but I simply heard that Mario's jab no longer connects properly, but Samus' does apparently.

 

[SuSa]

Snake's first jab is decent, because it can leads to grab/ftilt on some of the cast (still needs to be frame-by-framed.. but because it's worked for soooooooo long, I'm assuming it does)

Oh, and it having 2 different hitboxes (one is inside the other? WTF?) makes it hard to use properly, as somtimes one will hit instead of the other.. it's... weird.

Jab 1-2 sucks, and 2-3 is even worse. Most of the cast can simply hold shield and avoid it, or DI down and shield it, or DI away and simply avoid it. It's a HORRIBLE jab.

Luckily a lot of people don't know this.

This is our Jab post
Thread with a ton of random facts
The best thread ever, a collection of all my useful threads.. all 55+ of them

 

[Nidtendofreak]

O_o

*attempts to wrap head around that idea*

*fails*

*is confused*

*this was at Pierce's post*

 

[Arikags]

The fact is, this is unlikely to ever become a reality because people who don't even know there is a competitive scene for Brawl generally use the default settings when it comes to things like damage ratio.

 

[Exceladon City]

Thanks for telling me SuSa. I knew you were an amazing guy. Also, A2 you should probably bring out the white flag, you're clearly outgunned.

 

[HeroMystic]

From what I read, Mario's jab works fine as long as he isn't using it directly in the opponent's face, which causes you to hit with the arms.