how does marth not gimp us?
it doesn't seem as hopeless as mk to you guys perhaps...but with mk you have alot of chances to recover correctly. you do take a fair amount of damage off the ledge against him but it's easy to put that damage back onto him once you get back onstage. it's pretty tough for mk to flat out kill you while you're recovering if you do it correctly. i hardly ever get straight up gimped. stupid things happen of course but umbrella is surprisingly not bad against mk and it pulls through for me a fair amount.
MARTH though. mk gimps you outwardly. he hits you away from the stage with dair, nair, loop. marth doesnt have to do this. he can. but he can also spike you, which kills you instantly and goes through umbrella if he times it right. he can counter your umbrella and just keep hitting you away from the edge. he can fair or bair regardless of where you're recovering (high or low). and he can up-b stagespike you if he so desires - and it isn't like mk where his airspeed is slow, and he cant get in position to stagespike you with upb unless you really fk up. marth can just drop off the ledge, basically, and do it, and if you're using umbrella then get *****. cause you just died.
I believe Raz explained it earlier, you have to recover either high or low vs Marth. His spike has a ****load of endlag to it so it's risky for him to use it off stage. If he's by the ledge he's obviously going to try to spike you so time yourself. Umbrella counter is also about timing; it's really who predicts it better. It's risky if he mistimes it because he could get stagespiked (assuming he misses the tech).
so besides recovering...
marth's up b OOS tippers and kills you at around 130% if you miss with JAB. if i don't even hit marth's shield with jab, but am fairly close, i die. this is ********.
Don't use jab as much at high %'s for punishes. Grab if you can; Up B is ridiculously risky for Marth to use and if you bait it (run up and shield) you can do whatever you want to him. An up smash kill is always nice.
dancing blade racks up a million damage and if he doesnt do the stupid green slash at the end that you can DI out of then it's unpunishable, basically, if you get hit. he can stop doing it at anytime for mindgames, which makes it harder to punish if you shield it.
Dancing blade is a good attack. If it helps, think of it like mk's forward tilt. Comes out quick, can be not completed to combo, but has a lot of lag if you don't complete it or if you do complete it on shield. The opportunity to punish is there, you just have to guess right/be quick enough.
he has good grab range, i mean sure his grab does 4% but he can combo out of it rather well and you can't rely on your shield against him. he can rely on his shield against peach, though, with his excellent OOS options. peach can in no way pressure marth's shield safely (same as mk) to any degree that actually matters.
Spaced forward air does pretty well on Marth's shield. Marth has an okay OoS game and I think you overestimate it. His grab is fantastic and you're correct about it aside from relying on shield, especially at higher %'s. Eating 4% and having the potential to be followed up is a lot better than a guaranteed tipper. She can't pressure his shield but she can bait his OoS game and punish fairly well.
marth can juggle peach to hell. mk can do this too of course but i dont fear mk's as much because typically when i get juggled by him it's uair uair uair to some move that hits me away from him, loop or fair or nair. then i'm away from him. then i can recover normally enough, hit him when he comes after me, whatever. marth doesn't really hit you away. so you keep having to deal with OMG HOW THE FK DO I LAND? i'm not saying that marth will get to juggle you every time, but it's no picnic trying to avoid it and you really just have to focus on minimalizing the damage.
Peach gets easily juggled by lots of characters, Marth is just a character that's better at juggling in general. Mix up your landings and pay more attention to his timing (remember Bair physically moves you and if you clash with him it at least knocks him away from you).
and finally. marth absolutely kills 10000% better than mk. it's extremely hard to make a comeback vs marth. he can play safely, just as well as mk can as far as peach is concerned. marth is also heavier than mk and killing him is harder, not to mention that your moves are going to be stale cause you have to outspace marth constantly with bair and fair. plus it's almost impossible to gimp a really good marth, despite turnips being pretty useful for that.
Lol, Marth does not kill better than mk. Can he kill earlier? Yes, but he's not as consistent at it. It is not impossible to gimp Marth, and if you don't gimp him you can very likely make sure he takes damage coming back. His ledge game is predictable so learn to abuse it.
speaking of, turnips are absolutely stupid against marth. turnips annoy mk. marth just goes through them/catches them with fair. because of his much better airspeed, marth doesnt care about turnips nearly as much as mk.
Punish his landings with turnips after his attacks.
that's all for now.
