Alabama Thread! (10/26/2016 update)

[GeorgeTHPS]

LOL at your yoshi, George. Paul showed me that **** on his 3ds.

sn on league is Willundrskor.

My Yoshi may have a deformed body, but he's got a lot of heart!

 

[NinjaFoxX]

i must see this yoshi for myself, it must be beautiful o3o.

also, got bored and made this for smashville:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pqyOyUov7A

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Played nine hours of Punch Time Explosion XL today. Sooooo much better than the DS version.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Played nine hours of Punch Time Explosion XL today. Sooooo much better than the DS version.

Is Captain Planet still a character?

 

[theONEjanitor]

are billy and mandy as broken as ICs

 

[TheSaintKai]

Ice Climbers force their opponent to space properly, play patiently, and punish accordingly. Which in my opinion sums up Brawl. If you can not do these things, then you will struggle against ICs. It's not even impossible to do well with other characters. I don't mind playing the matchup as D3, and 4God almost beat me at AUSOM4ever. I NEVER scrape up Calvin. We always have close sets. It's just a matter of playing very smart and executing.

I'm just quoting this because it's true.
Janitor, you said that "all of a sudden at high levels of play it's hard to grab people" rather sarcastically, but if you put it alongside this, it makes sense.

Because at high levels of play, people know a wide range of match-ups, including Ice Climbers. And they know my moveset, and they know how to "space properly, play patiently, and punish accordingly." It REALLY comes down to that, and keeping your cool when I inevitably end up close to you on the ground.

That's why when MK was around, I swore up and down that it was impossible to beat an MK who didn't mess up. Because when they know the match up, they know when it's safe to land, they space d-air perfectly and always full hop f-air, they kill Nana when I'm separated, etc. It was 99% impossible to grab an MK who played safely and perfectly.

Sorry for the wall of text.

And for future reference, the only character I think is ACTUALLY "broken" or OP is MK.
Everything else is a joke.

 

[theONEjanitor]

MK is the only character than can realistically "not get grabbed" by a good ICs player, because he doesn't ever have to be on the ground if he doesn't want to. And the only MK I've ever seen not get grabbed in a match anyway is M2k.
I would place a wager that if you watch any elev8 (or any IC's players tbh) match where he lost or "almost got beat" there were spots where he either did a move other than grab where grab would have been better, dropped a CG or allowed his opponent to mash out. (now we've discussed this before and it has been claimed that you can mash out of ICs chaingrab 100% of the time below a certain percent, but until this becomes a standard of the metagame, I'm not sure we can consider it realistic...and this would the only thing that counters ICs, not lol "spacing correctly". This is brawl, you're going to get grabbed. I watched a set between Ally and Lain from last year, and Ally was doing a good job of mashing out, I dunno if its because Lain was hesitating or because that's just something you can do. either way, THATS why he didn't lose. he's the smartest player int he world, and he still got grabbed, by the Ice climbers, plenty of times.)
There are lots of OP characters in Brawl, but luckily there are enough of them so that tournaments are still moderately diverse and interesting.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

MK is the only character than can realistically "not get grabbed" by a good ICs player, because he doesn't ever have to be on the ground if he doesn't want to. And the only MK I've ever seen not get grabbed in a match anyway is M2k.
I would place a wager that if you watch any elev8 (or any IC's players tbh) match where he lost or "almost got beat" there were spots where he either did a move other than grab where grab would have been better, dropped a CG or allowed his opponent to mash out. (now we've discussed this before and it has been claimed that you can mash out of ICs chaingrab 100% of the time below a certain percent, but until this becomes a standard of the metagame, I'm not sure we can consider it realistic...and this would the only thing that counters ICs, not lol "spacing correctly". This is brawl, you're going to get grabbed. I watched a set between Ally and Lain from last year, and Ally was doing a good job of mashing out, I dunno if its because Lain was hesitating or because that's just something you can do. either way, THATS why he didn't lose. he's the smartest player int he world, and he still got grabbed, by the Ice climbers, plenty of times.)
There are lots of OP characters in Brawl, but luckily there are enough of them so that tournaments are still moderately diverse and interesting.

Eh...King Dedede is pretty good at not getting grabbed, mostly because of his obnoxious grab range. Wario can do it if he really wants to. Peach can do it if she really wants to. Snake can do it if he really wants to. Falco can do it if he really wants to. It's just that not much is gonna get done if you don't take risks, and the longer the match goes, the more opportunities that the Ice Climbers will get to grab.

I've definitely seen matches between Calvin and my older brother where lasers, pokes, and Phantasm shut down ICs completely, until Calvin does something stupid like an F-Smash, which gives my brother the opportunity to grab in the first place. It's often the opposite of what you're saying; people have the Ice Climbers figured out until they do an unsafe move instead of sticking to the gameplan that was working.

 

[TheSaintKai]

MK is the only character than can realistically "not get grabbed" by a good ICs player, because he doesn't ever have to be on the ground if he doesn't want to.

Not true. Peach does an amazing job of keeping off the ground and away from my grabs.
Toon Link is extremely hard to grab, due to a large amount of his moves auto cancelling, and the fact that he can be holding a bomb at any moment.

I would place a wager that if you watch any elev8 (or any IC's players tbh) match where he lost or "almost got beat" there were spots where he either did a move other than grab where grab would have been better, dropped a CG or allowed his opponent to mash out. (now we've discussed this before and it has been claimed that you can mash out of ICs chaingrab 100% of the time below a certain percent, but until this becomes a standard of the metagame, I'm not sure we can consider it realistic...and this would the only thing that counters ICs, not lol "spacing correctly".

If you always grab, you become extremely predictable. Especially when your grab range is ****ty. Reflex beat the hell out of my ICs for being predictable at Resist 1. It was terrible.
Spacing better WILL make it harder to grab you. If Lucario f-smashes me and I'm not at the edge of his range, I can grab him. Therefore, he should get great at spacing his f-smash, so that it always tips me. Same with Pit's f-smash, Snake's u-tilt, etc.

Do you want to know why Reflex and others can mash out of my grab below a certain percent if I don't buffer it? Because you can buffer mash inputs. If you react quickly enough when you think I'm about to grab you, and start mashing immediately (in the brief few frames before I grab you), then you will break out almost instantly. And when I say almost instantly, I mean if I dash grab you, in the 12 frames where I'm still skidding frmo the dash, you can break free. And by the way, I can show you a hundred videos that have examples of many different people being able to mash out of grabs quickly.

The key is that you have to mash out of the grab at the beginning, or at the end. If an Ice Climbers player knows what they are doing, they will be buffering the grab so that mashing out during the throws is impossible. So you have to get out before I start, or when I stop to try and kill you.

This is brawl, you're going to get grabbed. I watched a set between Ally and Lain from last year, and Ally was doing a good job of mashing out, I dunno if its because Lain was hesitating or because that's just something you can do. either way, THATS why he didn't lose. he's the smartest player int he world, and he still got grabbed, by the Ice climbers, plenty of times.)

Not to poke a hole in your argument, but you just said M2K doesn't really get grabbed. MJG doesn't get grabbed either. (Toon Link) Illmatic doesn't really get grabbed either. (Peach)
Ally is the smartest player in the world because of the same reason that Daigo is the smartest player in the world. When you get as good as the people Ally has to worry about, you assume they are going to execute everything perfectly. So it comes down to mindgames. Ally knows how to use unsafe moves in a way that catches the opponent off guard, and when properly thrown into an otherwise perfect game, gives him the upper hand.
HOWEVER, when you try and use unsafe moves against ICE CLIMBERS, it has a FAR worse risk/reward ratio. His risk against a Diddy Kong is that the Diddy Kong somehow predicts his random move, and gets stage control and perhaps 25%. His reward is great stage control, momentum, and his move connecting. His risk versus Ice Climbers is a prediction -> stock. Reward is maybe 25%. xD That's why he got grabbed. That and, Snake is a fairly ground oriented character, so he's a little more likely to get grabbed than TL or Peach.

There are lots of OP characters in Brawl, but luckily there are enough of them so that tournaments are still moderately diverse and interesting.

This is also the truth. Part of the reason I like Brawl is because of this.





Edit: Forgot Wario. If Wario properly mixes up his approaches, he is extremely difficult to grab. And kills me at like 50% with a damn half waft. ):

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Apparently, once you get grabbed, it always takes at least seven frames before a character can break out, no matter how many inputs he presses, so a perfectly-timed ICs chaingrab is impossible to escape, even at 0%. That said, because Nana has to whiff her grab before it starts, as long as the opponent doesn't realize it too late, it still isn't really an issue.

 

[_Kadaj_]

The Re-Sex Wondah!

<3

 

[theONEjanitor]

i forgot about peach. but same thing. its a character that's never really on the ground. like i said, i don't doubt that it's "hard". but you only have to do it 3 times and in most cases you have lots of time to do it because most characters optimal strategy against ICs is to camp the **** out of them.
if you're predictable, you're going to lose, even if you're playing metaknight or super turbo akuma. that's not the issue. This is brawl. there are tons of situations where you get free grabs. unless of course your opponent actually resolves to camp you the whole match without taking any risks whatsoever, which is not really a thing that's realistically practical (unless youre metaknight. or peach in this matchup specifically, and i even hesitate to say that).
but ICs players **** up all the time, so no worries.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Is Captain Planet still a character?

Yeah. He has a ****ing hard time getting in, but once he does, he gets IN. He's knee is not quite as destructive as Captain Falcon's, but it's an amazing finisher with no sour spot.

are billy and mandy as broken as ICs

They're pretty bad. So are Mac & Bloo.

 

[Mahgnittoc]

Merry Christmas.

I wanna play this game more :\

 

[DeLux]

So ummm, I don't want to sound sarcastic to Janitor, but every IC grab setup option is realistically beaten by TWO buttons on the default control scheme. If an opponent gets grabbed, it's honestly because they didn't jump or they committed to something dumb.

If the opponent knows what they are doing, ICs shouldn't be grabbing MK, Snake, Diddy, Marth, ZSS, TL, Peach, and kind of Wario, ROB, and Yoshi without having to put themselves in a situation where the risk/loss reward is a stock/nana.

 

[theONEjanitor]

its kind of weird to me that we are actually saying that "don't get grabbed" is a legitimate thing that happens in this game.
do you guys not watch brawl matches. or is it just that everyone except m2k sucks at this game?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

its kind of weird to me that we are actually saying that "don't get grabbed" is a legitimate thing that happens in this game.
do you guys not watch brawl matches. or is it just that everyone except m2k sucks at this game?

How many Ice Climbers players win tournaments?

 

[theONEjanitor]

How many Ice Climbers players win tournaments?

Personally, i'm going to keep an eye out, now that metaknight is banned.
ICs carry players so much that I really don't think there's ever been a legitimately good Ice Climbers player (relatively). and at the highest level you can't just run up and grab people, which even high level ICs try to do, and I don't really understand it.

i'm just basing this off of matches I've seen. maybe you guys are familiar with matches that I'm not. but the only time I've seen an ICs player lose a match, they missed opportunities to take easy stocks via chaingrabs. the only exception that I've personally seen was against m2k's metaknight. you can only camp someone for so long. eventually you have to do SOMETHING. and thats when the Ics player should probably grab you, if they haven't already. Maybe its unreasonable to expect someone to have flawless execution in the heat of battle.

 

[DeLux]

Don't get grabbed IS a legitimate thing that happens in this game though :\

Jumping away will beat every grab attempt from an IC if you in a neutral state, I promise. It's literally that easy. Assuming you ban FD, you should always have a platform to get to. At which point, if you know the matchup, you can really destroy ICs game if you know what to look for.

For example, if an IC strong hitboxes your shield with an Uair if you're on a platform, you can get a free hit to separate them by platform dropping out of shield with a MAJORITY of characters. If they have to weak hitbox you with Uair, you can at that point react to the Uair and jump away.

So combining jump with platform drop out of shield, you just pooped on their primary kill option and mitigated their primary damage option.

Combine that with the fact that they have an auto loss on 1/3rd of the games because of the stages in the ruleset, and you should start to realize that your fear of getting infinited is leading you to make objectively sensationalist claims about a very beatable and abuseable character.

 

[TheSaintKai]

Personally, i'm going to keep an eye out, now that metaknight is banned.
ICs carry players so much that I really don't think there's ever been a legitimately good Ice Climbers player (relatively). and at the highest level you can't just run up and grab people, which even high level ICs try to do, and I don't really understand it.

i'm just basing this off of matches I've seen. maybe you guys are familiar with matches that I'm not. but the only time I've seen an ICs player lose a match, they missed opportunities to take easy stocks via chaingrabs. the only exception that I've personally seen was against m2k's metaknight. you can only camp someone for so long. eventually you have to do SOMETHING. and thats when the Ics player should probably grab you, if they haven't already. Maybe its unreasonable to expect someone to have flawless execution in the heat of battle.

It's fairly obvious that you have a predetermined hatred for them, so any amount of arguing won't convince you otherwise. I won't try to do so anymore.

I WILL however, stand up for the Ice Climbers players that are legitimately skilled and put hard work and mind games into their character. Hylian plays an insane Falco and G+W. People wouldn't take him to RC because they knew his G+W was good.
Vinnie played G+W before Ice Climbers.
ESAM is incredible with ICs, but he obviously is an amazing player.
That is JUST IC players who have secondaries that are great (off the top of my head).

None of these people picked up ICs and just all of a sudden got even BETTER. Which, by your logic, they should, since there's never been a legitimately smart and good ICs player. They picked up ICs, and remained about the same. That's because the grab, even in the hands of a good player, isn't nearly as awesome as it seems. Try picking up Ice Climbers and playing Reflex. See about how far they carry you.

 

[DeLux]

^This

I think I'm the only IC that someone could legitimately say I get carried by the character since I just abuse my knowledge of their absurd situational gimmicks in order to trap people doing really stupid things (ie not jumping).

 

[TheSaintKai]

^This

I think I'm the only IC that someone could legitimately say I get carried by the character since I just abuse my knowledge of their absurd situational gimmicks in order to trap people doing really stupid things (ie not jumping).

You win even though you drop CGs

You're broken as ****. :D

 

[DeLux]

I also forfeit game 2 on a consistent basis lol

(against people I don't know for sure I can beat on RC/Brinstar)

(wish I were kidding)

(but I'm not)

 

[theONEjanitor]

i don't hate characters i just think it has an overpowered gimmick. i think diddy and falco have overpowered gimmicks too. to a lesser extent though.
all i'd really need to see to change my mind, are matches where characters that aren't metaknight or peach avoid getting grabbed by a non-scrubby ICs for 8 minutes. because I've never seen it before. I've seen people mash out. I've seen people get lucky because the IC's ****ed up. But I've never seen them 'not get grabbed'.
if it were easy to not grabbed by ICs I don't imagine the character would even be worth playing tbh

 

[DeLux]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG7csxQeEvw&feature=related

Two grabs in this set

And before you give some argument about dropped grabs, keep in mind bombs and boomerangs out on the field disrupt CGs allowing for a TL to push and take risks that they couldn't without said tools.

 

[theONEjanitor]

there's a good example of what i mentioned earlier, just randomly running up to people and trying to dash grab them. i dunno why Ics and ddds do that all the time. i mean i know grabs are your game but still dont be predictable. he does that about 3 times. i could say he should be waiting for a spotdodge since that's what people do all the time, but whatever. and he even has a chance to bring it back to a stock but drops the cg at the end (no boomerangs or bombs on the field). i will concede that I should probably consider the stages more in my argument.

 

[DeLux]

All of which more or less confirms the whole point that at high levels of play, an IC has to put themselves at a very high risk in order to try to net a reward for a grab.

Meanwhile it was a clear demonstration of a character being able to pressure and harass the ICs for stocks at a time, controlling match flow and pacing, all while being relatively safe. I even outlined a clear way on how to do this without even having to spotdodge ever via platforms and working out of shield.

If you know what to abuse and know the matchup, it's actually relatively easy. Your misinformation on them being "overpowered" is born more out of ignorance than anything else, it appears.

 

[I SEE YOU]

Merry Christmas everyone.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Merry Christmas!

3DS is pretty cool.

Enjoying the ICs conversation.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I want to get this Gold Body for Mario Kart 7, but the requirement is ridiculous.

 

[Duchock]

Merry Christmas ya'll.

 

[popsofctown]

Well, from my understanding of the program (I didn't design it, I just used it), losing a set 2-1 doesn't hurt you as much as losing a set 2-0. However, I know it doesn't just count individual games; it considers the set as a whole. So, it's not like Pops beat Ryker one game, ding 5 points gained. Lost the next two, ding 10 points off. It's more like, Pops lost 1-2 to Ryker, so instead of losing 10 points, he loses 8 or something like that.

EDIT: Ryan said it is the same ELO program that everyone else uses, so this isn't something we pulled out of thin air.

Well if it's based on the chess ELO system, you have to consider that chess doesn't have a counterpick system, and smash does. In chess, three games is just a random sample of three interactions between two players. In smash, a set of three games is a self-contained competition to win the three game set. Designating 2-0 victories as being more dominant than 2-1 victories is really as arbitrary as giving extra elo for checkmating within 60 turns or winning a game with two stocks left.

A strategy of superior quality can rather easily 2-1 or get 0-2'ed more frequently than an inferior strategy. For instance, let's say I mainly play Snake, but decide to set aside 3 hours a day to practice using Mr. Game and Watch on Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise. I can win 99.9% of the time counterpicking those stages. I neglect my main so much that my Snake only wins 15% of the time during the other games of the sets. I win .15+.15*.85 = .15+.1275 = 27% of the time, I win.

Then say George decides to play nothing but Kirby, a fairly well rounded character. He's been playing too much melee though and he's rusty. He wins 45% of the time, any time. So .45*45+.55*.45*.45= .2025+.111375 = .313= 31.3% of the time he wins the set.

I will never get 2-0'ed, ever. I'll always go to Brinstar or Rainbow at least once. George will get 2-0'ed sometimes if he gets outplayed two games in a row. If the elo system is accounting for the game score, it's saying "pops never gets 2-0'ed so that's an indication that he might be as good at winning sets as George is." But that's not the case, I just win sets with a different style than George. If I stopped practicing GW on the air stages I would start getting 2-0'ed more, but might get better at Snake. The Elo system perceives that I'm getting worse at winning sets but I'm not.


Using game scores is a way of increasing sample size, and it works just fine in games with no counterpick system. In smash it creates bias though, and no amount of sample size can fix bias in statistics. For the first printout with a drought of data, it might be ok, but in the long term, once there's plenty of data's set scores alone should be used for ELO.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I got Super Street Fighter 4: 3D Edition today so that I can practice my links on the go.

 

[GeorgeTHPS]

Reflex and Ryker and everyone else, let's become 3DS friends.

1676-3689-8314

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Reflex and Ryker and everyone else, let's become 3DS friends.

1676-3689-8314

Sure.

4210-4468-9621

I need people to play Mario Kart and Blazblue with.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

2492-4449-2771.

Get at me.

 

[shaSLAM]

i love how your counter argument video was an IC's player vs ICS WORST MATCHUP LOL
also v1nnie's ic's beat @lly's snake.

snake so broken.... amiright?..

 

[shaSLAM]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtptY0qU6wo&feature=related

also this ice climbers player is ranked number 6 in michigan.

why....
this kind of stuff just makes me feel like you guys arent even playing the same game as the rest of us. its all soooo relaxed dude... like it just looks like you guys dont have to try as hard as everyone else LOL and you cant blame me for thinking that THAT IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE AND FROM WHAT I CAN TELL THAT IS THE PLAIN OLD FACT OF THE MATTER. notice the keyword is "from what i can tell" though.


look at v1nnies ic's since you used him as an example.
he just spams and throws himself into his opponent looking for grab opportunities. he is not really "playing" he is just kind of ****ing around. but he eliminates the need for 1. SPACING and 2. PRESSURE GAME. like wtf is that?! but he is a rllly good ics
seriously though, maybe you guys just cant tell because you are both ic's players lol but v1nnies ic's are garbage but that doesnt matter because they are still ic's. so in ACTUALITY v1nnie's ic's = the greatest.
watch any of his videos how do you guys get away with half of the stuff he is doing? lol




the only ic's that looks good to me is Sw0rdguard. the rest of you guys just look really sloppy and relaxed and just basically not clean, but you ALL get away with it. there is not a character in brawl that people could do that with other than metaknight.
hurrm duurrrm heeerrp deerrp wonnder whyy????

 

[PrinceAlias]

I agree with you Slam...but if you kill nana IC's then becomes 3x harder than every other character, I feel its a good trade

 

[shaSLAM]

is thart a beyblade avitar ryker?