smashfan34
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2006
- Messages
- 187
cool why dont you go play with sheiks needles you tier ***.
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All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)
- Thread starter phanna
- Start date
ChozenOne
Smash Champion
Is that aimed at me, b/c i'm a cheerleader, or b/c i main Jigglypuff [aka high tier]...
smashfan34
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2006
- Messages
- 187
umm it was aimed at sheik because sheik likes to play with her needles while she cheerleads. and she uses them instead of pom poms. =(
ChozenOne
Smash Champion
Agreed.. shiek is indeed fuxing w/ gay. *pound*
She can go, and shoot up some pills w/ estacy boy, while using her unclean needles...
She can go, and shoot up some pills w/ estacy boy, while using her unclean needles...
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
@smashfan: you citing fanboys for supporting their character of choice isn't that much different than saying link is good b/c aniki is good with him. Fanboys don't determine the matchups, but at the same time you can't base a character off of a single player.
phish-it
Smash Champion
What a ****ing Hypocrite.
Some slight disagreements about Jigglypuff.
I see no possible way for Jiggly to counter Ice Climbers. All of my experience has been that the Ice Climbers hold a disctinct advantage in the matchup. The desynch as a whole is too good, when they cover each other it is basically Marth with no lag.
Also, Roy counters Jigglypuff decently, solely because of the reverse blazer. People underestimate this move all the time, but it really is effective.
Finally, I don't see Jiggly < Peach. At worst it is an even matchup. They have many of the same strengths and weaknesses. Speaking from personal experience, I have beaten numerous Peaches throughout the years from all over the country, and I've never considered them a matchup problem.
I see no possible way for Jiggly to counter Ice Climbers. All of my experience has been that the Ice Climbers hold a disctinct advantage in the matchup. The desynch as a whole is too good, when they cover each other it is basically Marth with no lag.
Also, Roy counters Jigglypuff decently, solely because of the reverse blazer. People underestimate this move all the time, but it really is effective.
Finally, I don't see Jiggly < Peach. At worst it is an even matchup. They have many of the same strengths and weaknesses. Speaking from personal experience, I have beaten numerous Peaches throughout the years from all over the country, and I've never considered them a matchup problem.
nookrulz
Smash Ace
agree, reverse peach/jiggs. slight edge to jiggs b/c of vertical KOs.
phish-it
Smash Champion
Peach kills Jiggylpuff easier of top then Jiggs does Peach. Up-smash out of shield is pretty useful in this match up and their Up-airs are both pretty even in strength.
Ryan-K
Smash Master
I guess that's why aniki mains samus now huh?
That or maybe he's sick of people like you talking like you know anything. Odds are you don't know your *** from you elbow.
nookrulz
Smash Ace
this is true, but it's easier for a puff to keep a peach above her than the other way around.
ChozenOne
Smash Champion
If you guys that are looking @ Jigg's matchups.. look @ pg's 21-23.. that's where Chozen+Magus had alittle bit of a debate...
frotaz37
Smash Lord
It says Ganon is even with Marth and Captain Falcon.
looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
ToP CaT
Smash Lord
stage dependant, but true for the most part
squaminator
Smash Ace
too good.
*bump*
*bump*
mood4food77
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2005
- Messages
- 5,964
falcon ***** ganon, pretty bad, one of his 4 bad match-ups (why are his bad match-ups so bad), 5-2, 5-3 in falcon's favor, i hate falcon the most, probably cause he's used the least out of his 4 bad match-ups (fox, falco, sheik are teh other 3)
marth vs. ganon is even one of the most even match-ups out there, 5-5, no doubt, they both do about the same stuff to each other damage wise
chozen's a cheerleader...i thought his location was kidding
and yes, jiggs is at a disadvantage against almost every high tiered character but it depends on the person using her, like King does very well with ehr
and after not playing the game for 2 weeks, am i supposed to be able to do fox's drillshine infinite almost perfect the day i start playing again, after never being able to do it before
marth vs. ganon is even one of the most even match-ups out there, 5-5, no doubt, they both do about the same stuff to each other damage wise
chozen's a cheerleader...i thought his location was kidding
and yes, jiggs is at a disadvantage against almost every high tiered character but it depends on the person using her, like King does very well with ehr
and after not playing the game for 2 weeks, am i supposed to be able to do fox's drillshine infinite almost perfect the day i start playing again, after never being able to do it before
StripesOrBars
Smash Master
Gannon does fine against Fox and Falco.
phish-it
Smash Champion
Bad math-ups meaning not in his favor. Kind of like sheik players who ***** about Fox/Falco/Ice climbers, because she ***** pretty much everyone else.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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- Oct 6, 2005
- Messages
- 5,964
i'm still confused on how sheik can CT ganon from 30-120 or something like that, cause i've never been CT more than twice by a sheik, and yes, i've played good sheiks (storms owned me harder than anyone has ever....), i think he can smash DI her dthrow, but i don't know if he JC her grabs either....so i need more proof of this, but she ***** him every other way...
sheik does well against fox and falco...ICs are anotehr story
it feels good to be back
sheik does well against fox and falco...ICs are anotehr story
it feels good to be back
Magus420
Smash Master
Storms is really bad at chaingrabbing Ganon then if he can only get 2 grabs, and no the d-throw is not smash DIable. JC grabbing does nothing for Sheik's CG other than making it more complicated. Both a dash grab and JC grab take 9 frames total from a standstill, and the dash grab even has slightly more range.
Sheik can CG Ganon from 8-80 (before the throw). If you DI a tiny bit more behind than down from diagonally down & behind they have to pivot grab just right to get the regrab from 75-80. A sweetspotted u-smash combos and will KO on FD or lower starting around 80/85 (before the throw) with any DI on the throw but away, which they can just regrab anyway till well past 100 then f-air and edgeguard.
phish-it
Smash Champion
Storms' sheik is pretty meh anyway. Besides, even IC's aren't impossible for sheik, she can still avoid getting grabbed better than most characters.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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- Oct 6, 2005
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but it's not just his sheik, it's the otehr sheiks i verse too, and that's when i learned how to DI properly, they try but it doesn't work, maybe i just time the DI right, i'll post up something to show it
but it's not the CG that kills ganon, it's everything else, dthrow to ftilt followed up by a dash attack for DI and then a fair, and a couple more to make sure of the kill, or instead of one fair it's bair to fair (like how DSF does it, unsweetspotted bair to fair)
i hate sheik....
but it's not the CG that kills ganon, it's everything else, dthrow to ftilt followed up by a dash attack for DI and then a fair, and a couple more to make sure of the kill, or instead of one fair it's bair to fair (like how DSF does it, unsweetspotted bair to fair)
i hate sheik....
Magus420
Smash Master
There is no timing on the DI. You can just hold it and it makes absolutely no difference. DI'ing away just makes it difficult for them to get you at lower damage, and Sheiks that halfass the timing or aren't used to his weight will often allow you to tech before they get the grab out. You are near NJ/NY or so right? Just play M2K's Sheik or something. He doesn't suck at it.
Can you be more specific? Just listing moves isn't going to prove any points.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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- Messages
- 5,964
i haven't played his sheik, maybe it's just the 5 sheiks i do play that can't CT me, i don't know, oh well...i hate her anyways, it's still bad for ganon
ChozenOne
Smash Champion
No lies good sir.. no lies.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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- 5,964
my school has no guy cheerleaders, and anyways, the cheerleading coach is hotter than the cheerleaders, when that happens, you know something is wrong (my sister is a cheerleader)
so, how about doc's or mario's match-ups, we don't hear a lot about those, i know his worst match-ups are falcon and marth, and he's about even with sheik, fox, and falco, how are they against peach....i really can't tell with that match-up?
so, how about doc's or mario's match-ups, we don't hear a lot about those, i know his worst match-ups are falcon and marth, and he's about even with sheik, fox, and falco, how are they against peach....i really can't tell with that match-up?
wuthefwasthat
Smash Ace
well, look at the chart?
hmm if your sheik players aren't CGing you, it might be because they don't want to be completely gay. I don't CG, even with ICs and sheik. I do really gay combos that might lead to grabs, but i wouldnt ever do more than two dthrow dairs.
hmm if your sheik players aren't CGing you, it might be because they don't want to be completely gay. I don't CG, even with ICs and sheik. I do really gay combos that might lead to grabs, but i wouldnt ever do more than two dthrow dairs.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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they attempt to, there's only 2 reasons why that i can think of that they don't, 1. they're not JC grab (which is probably the main reason) or 2. i figured out a way to DI her dthrow
Magus420
Smash Master
Way to not read anything I said earlier =P
Zivilyn Bane
Smash Master
This list is really.....not good. Sorry, not trying to be rude.
I don't feel like reading the 50something pages of this, so I'm just going to say that
If you add up the match totals, it looks like this
Sheik-186
Falco-175
Marth-174
Fox-171
Because fox is only the 4th best character right? Lol. Phanna you play samus. And your from florida. Now when you give samus a 5 against fox, you're telling us that either all the fox players in florida suck, or you're making a bold statement to be by far the best samus ever.
Now, I think neither of these are true. I've seen some pretty good florida fox players, rock and some others. But why give samus a 5?
You need to go to California, get ***** by some asian foxs, then go back to florida and give fox a 7 or 8.
Other things like fox getting a 6 against ROY?? Right right, because fox is only SLIGHTLY better than roy.......
Fox against Falco? lol.
Fox against Marth? lol.
Fox only gets a 7 against Mewtwo? lol.
Look, maybe you should focus less on extremely good players that are good with one character.
There is only like 2 Marths in the US that can beat the marjority of foxs, Ken and Azen.
There is only 1 Mewtwo that can beat good foxs, Taj.
And there is only 1 good samus, ONLY ONE, that can beat good foxs. And thats HugS.
Now again, I'm not trying to be rude or flame you. I like your vids and I think your samus is very very unique. I just don't understand why you're underestimating Fox so much. Am I the only one that feels this way?
I don't feel like reading the 50something pages of this, so I'm just going to say that
If you add up the match totals, it looks like this
Sheik-186
Falco-175
Marth-174
Fox-171
Because fox is only the 4th best character right? Lol. Phanna you play samus. And your from florida. Now when you give samus a 5 against fox, you're telling us that either all the fox players in florida suck, or you're making a bold statement to be by far the best samus ever.
Now, I think neither of these are true. I've seen some pretty good florida fox players, rock and some others. But why give samus a 5?
You need to go to California, get ***** by some asian foxs, then go back to florida and give fox a 7 or 8.
Other things like fox getting a 6 against ROY?? Right right, because fox is only SLIGHTLY better than roy.......
Fox against Falco? lol.
Fox against Marth? lol.
Fox only gets a 7 against Mewtwo? lol.
Look, maybe you should focus less on extremely good players that are good with one character.
There is only like 2 Marths in the US that can beat the marjority of foxs, Ken and Azen.
There is only 1 Mewtwo that can beat good foxs, Taj.
And there is only 1 good samus, ONLY ONE, that can beat good foxs. And thats HugS.
Now again, I'm not trying to be rude or flame you. I like your vids and I think your samus is very very unique. I just don't understand why you're underestimating Fox so much. Am I the only one that feels this way?
pdk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2006
- Messages
- 1,320
too bad this was addressed a long long time ago either here or in the tier list topic
Zivilyn Bane
Smash Master
wuthefwasthat
Smash Ace
So.. for all the argument in this forum...
Maybe we should start a tally of matchups from tourney matches.
So, everytime, in any big tourney or non-sandbagged MM with 2 good players, a fox 2-stocks a jigg, we would add 4 to the fox and 2 to the jiggs in that matchup. So this would tell us how lopsided the matchup is, and accounts for amount that matchup is played, extremely varied playstyles of the same character, and the banning/picking of stages. Also, since these matches are serious matches, it would be somewhat justified to say that most of the players know the matchup well, as they probably wouldn't want to venture it without experience.
In addition, we would only take matches which occured in the last half year into consideration, since the game is awlays changing.
So we would basically just add up everyones stock-taking vs stock losses to see who is best. What makes more sense than that??
EDIT: of course, there are problems with this.
One example - Low tier characters will actually seem better than they are. Only extremely skilled players generally play low tier - not many play m2 besides taj, and taj would mkae a big diff in this.
and... if people care about this idea.... we will find plenty other flaws...
also, i'd like to mention that I am fine with Phanna's chart right now. It is surprisingly accurate, and tells us enough. we smash players are trying to pick the game apart too much. just play the **** game and have fun.
Maybe we should start a tally of matchups from tourney matches.
So, everytime, in any big tourney or non-sandbagged MM with 2 good players, a fox 2-stocks a jigg, we would add 4 to the fox and 2 to the jiggs in that matchup. So this would tell us how lopsided the matchup is, and accounts for amount that matchup is played, extremely varied playstyles of the same character, and the banning/picking of stages. Also, since these matches are serious matches, it would be somewhat justified to say that most of the players know the matchup well, as they probably wouldn't want to venture it without experience.
In addition, we would only take matches which occured in the last half year into consideration, since the game is awlays changing.
So we would basically just add up everyones stock-taking vs stock losses to see who is best. What makes more sense than that??
EDIT: of course, there are problems with this.
One example - Low tier characters will actually seem better than they are. Only extremely skilled players generally play low tier - not many play m2 besides taj, and taj would mkae a big diff in this.
and... if people care about this idea.... we will find plenty other flaws...
also, i'd like to mention that I am fine with Phanna's chart right now. It is surprisingly accurate, and tells us enough. we smash players are trying to pick the game apart too much. just play the **** game and have fun.
mood4food77
Smash Hero
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- Oct 6, 2005
- Messages
- 5,964
it's based on equal skill, samus can do a lot better on fox than most characters can, wes and hugs both do really well on them too (not sure whose the better samus anymore)
falco is fox's worst match-up, fox's only bad match-up
fox is almost even with marth, and there is also neo, husband, and many others who are good with marth, it's established
fox does not completely **** mewtwo, only beats him real hard, mewtwo can do a lot to fox...but it's fox...it's still bad
falco is fox's worst match-up, fox's only bad match-up
fox is almost even with marth, and there is also neo, husband, and many others who are good with marth, it's established
fox does not completely **** mewtwo, only beats him real hard, mewtwo can do a lot to fox...but it's fox...it's still bad
captainlukey
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 603
this chart would be worth looking at if it had any bearing on the game watsoever....
i mean the chart might be accurate but why study such things?
seems to me like phana and anyone looking at this chart is just over analysing...
i mean smash is all about picking your fave character\s and beating the living crap out of your opponents fave character....
once again good chart but jesus....!
its a game of fun guys!
i mean the chart might be accurate but why study such things?
seems to me like phana and anyone looking at this chart is just over analysing...
i mean smash is all about picking your fave character\s and beating the living crap out of your opponents fave character....
once again good chart but jesus....!
its a game of fun guys!
1048576
Smash Master
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 3,417
I think the problem with tallying character usage in tournies to determine who has the overall best matchups is that, in the long run, people change their mains to counter the most popular character. For example, lets suppose that 50% of players play Peach. The best character would probably then be Fox. The problem is that then people would learn to play Fox well, and the tourney scene would begin to pick up Falco, then revert back to Peach, etc... Obviously, reality is more complicated than that, and this switching of mains is not instantaneous. However, I still think the best way to find the best character based on the chart is to somehow create an algorithm where the characters are weighed more heavily if they have better overall matchups when you add up the numbers on the chart. Then the characters are reweighed based on the new numbers generated from the first weighing. This problem is repeated infinitely until a clear-cut tier list is created, or a few characters continue to oscillate. I haven't worked out the details, and I'm probably over-analyzing the situation, but that's just my two cents.
pockyD
Smash Legend
such a thing is very very useful for trying to pick a secondary to cover your weaknesses, among other things
What you don't realize is that it was addressed as such:
adding up the numbers of a column or row does not give any sort of meaningful statistic, since it exaggerates beyond a pure win/loss outcome you would experience in a tournament set with that character, as well as treats all character match-ups as even (That is, how many kirby's do you see in tournaments, vs, say marth).