Apparentlly, we suck against Wario, as well as Craptain Failcon

[Bestiarius]

So, there I was, sniffing around the Wario boards, minding my own business, when I came across the following in their official guide, complete with matchups:

Pokémon Trainer: Squirtle + 60-40
Pokémon Trainer: Ivysaur + 70-30
Charizard+ 60-40
Squirtle has a hard time killing him, Ivysaur gets edgegaurded disgustingly + gets overwhelmed up close. Charizard has a very nice keep away, but gets caught in combos that are almost funny.

Maybe it's just me, but, ARE THEY #@$%ING INSANE?!?!?

 

[typh]

PT is at a disadvantage against Wario.

 

[Magik0722]

agreed those numbers look legit

 

[Bestiarius]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acr2z5sehCM

That certainly isn't reflexive of those numbers.

Btw, what the heck is that that Wario does at 3:04?

 

[Justblaze647]

I thought no one sux aganst Falcon...

What the hell are they talking about..?!

 

[Bestiarius]

see the other thread by steeler. all will be clear...

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Ok, so i can see PT having a disadvantage... but... really that big????
Dam it... i was used to people who understimated ivy (who btw i think has a near neutral matchup against wario)... but now i can see they have no respect for the zard neither...
Oh, and i have one word for them:


GRAB RELEASE

ok i know thats actually two words

 

[MorphedChaos]

Uhm, GOOD LUCK grabbing Wario, a good Wario is impossible to grab, or near impossible. He has amazing DI that can make him bait your laggy moves, and he can attack and retreat away from any of your moves. Ivy's Bair gives Wario trouble, but then Wario can Airdodge DI through your Bair, and punish you when you land, and once Ivy is off the stage, you lost a stock. Squirtle is the only one who can match Wario or even catch him in the air, but then Wario has areal priority in the air VS Squirtle.

Dunno, remember its DMG who made that list, and he placed really high in HOBO11, so he knows what hes talking about. (And from his sig, looks like he gave Azen a run for his money O.o)

Maybe he underestimated, maybe not. Try having a matchup discussion and posting that your having one on the Wario forums might help?

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Well, we have a wario discussion, but noone posted anymore so now its lost on the internet...
Wario has aerial prioirty, squirtle has aerial range
The three pokemon have good grab ranges ( squirtles has marths grab range, ivy has a fast tether, charizard has bigger grab range than king DDD), grabbing may be a problem, but not too much

 

[Bestiarius]

Yeah, saying a good Wario is almost impossible to grab because he can DI is ludicrous. Yeah, you main Wario and probably know him well, but what you said would not only apply to grabs; it would apply to everything. "Wario is invincible because he won't ever get hit." I mean, come on. Your just as likely to be grabbed as getting hit with any other attack. Plus, Wario isn't exactly a long-range kinda guy; he'll be easily within the grab range of all three pokemon.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Wario will be constantly flying around stage, weaving back and forth to suddenly move out and F-air you, retreat, laugh, fart, fly around some more and repeat. BTW, Wario's B-air is epic.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

That depends on who it is, I suppose. Squirtles grab range is only bright during a dash pviot cancel. Ivysaur sufferes from ending grab lag except from a pivot grab, and Charizard himself has a good grab range but only if he can combo it into his moves, and that's hard enough as it is without the fact that Charizard lacklusters move that smoothly flow from one to the other without having some zone of vulnerablity around him.

Wario as an opponent has a legit advantage against Pokemon Trainer. His attacks outprioritize many of the pokemon's, and he's quicker in many aspects, and his DI is amazing.

 

[Bestiarius]

Yeah. Ok. Does that mean he will be untouchable? No. Plus, he is almost always outranged by the pokemon. It's not a fly-around-automatic-win-Wario-will-never-ever-get-hurt game, as much as you may want it to be.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Uhm, Wario might get hit, but with what? Wario is going to be in the air, and he outpriortizes all of the Pokemon's aerials besides Ivy's Bair. And you seriously underestimate Wario's DI, and if you do manage to hit him, how will you kill him? He beats all 3 pokemon in recovery and hes nearly impossible to gimp.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Yeah. Ok. Does that mean he will be untouchable? No. Plus, he is almost always outranged by the pokemon. It's not a fly-around-automatic-win-Wario-will-never-ever-get-hurt game, as much as you may want it to be.

Of course Wario isn't untouchable, but his amazing aerial acceleration which he shifts directions with help him to not get hit. You can still try to chase him in the air, or with U-smashes/tilts.

And Ivysaurs b-air doesn't outprioritizes, it outranges... As well does F-air.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Of course Wario isn't untouchable, but his amazing aerial acceleration which he shifts directions with help him to not get hit. You can still try to chase him in the air, or with U-smashes/tilts.

And Ivysaurs b-air doesn't outprioritizes, it outranges... As well does F-air.

True. Wario can DI airdodge though past it, then punish Ivy. And if Wario gets Ivy off the stage, its a lost stock.

 

[Steeler]

yeah we do suck at wario lol

 

[Magik0722]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acr2z5sehCM

That certainly isn't reflexive of those numbers.

Btw, what the heck is that that Wario does at 3:04?

Well of course you can find a match up of PT doing well, this isnt a 100/0 matchup its more like a 65/35 so in theory 35% of the matches recorded should be PT winning

 

[Toby.]

Bestiarius, the wario numbers are accurate. We've already discussed them before and there isn't much point arguing them now, because all the knowledgable Wario and PT players already agree on them.

 

[Steeler]

i think ivy has grab release to uair and nair btw

 

[MorphedChaos]

Good luck grabbing Wario, we know people have followups with the grab release.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Are there characters without grab release followups on Wario lal.

 

[Steeler]

ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

charizard maybe, opponents always ground release unless they press a jump button before they break out

 

[Bomber7]

gets caught in combos

Maybe it's just me, but, ARE THEY #@$%ING INSANE?!?!?

lol CF and combo's. I have a friend who wants to be "best CF in LA" if you look at the like 10 threads he made(now are basically all closed) you will see he keeps putting up a good effort to get CF tourny worthy. He's proposed "combo's" he has made up, made up of alot of dodgerolling which me and everyone else has told him is a fail.

I went on the CF boards once and I made a thread there and only 1 person out of like 20 was actually nice to me. I think they will come up with about anything to make themselves think they are good but overall CF was nerfed for Brawl. besides Squirtle is fast and can land good hits on CF, ivy and charz can space and rack damage and finish the job. basing that Ivy is an auto win but placing a "close match up" to cover it up is childish just because he has a bad recovery.

and yes they are insane.

Wario, I know nothing about so...yeah, nothing to say about that but I would think we had the advantage.

 

[Zeallyx]

lol CF and combo's. I have a friend who wants to be "best CF in LA" if you look at the like 10 threads he made(now are basically all closed) you will see he keeps putting up a good effort to get CF tourny worthy. He's proposed "combo's" he has made up, made up of alot of dodgerolling which me and everyone else has told him is a fail.

I went on the CF boards once and I made a thread there and only 1 person out of like 20 was actually nice to me. I think they will come up with about anything to make themselves think they are good but overall CF was nerfed for Brawl. besides Squirtle is fast and can land good hits on CF, ivy and charz can space and rack damage and finish the job. basing that Ivy is an auto win but placing a "close match up" to cover it up is childish just because he has a bad recovery.

and yes they are insane.

Wario, I know nothing about so...yeah, nothing to say about that but I would think we had the advantage.

you people say 'lolfalcon'
and if you made a spam thread, then yes, we weren't and shouldn't be nice to you.

But my thread was not a spam thread at all.

And we are not insane. (captain falcon actually has combo's, SH FF Nair>jab, and Dair>Knee say hi)

 

[Tenki]

I thought no one sux aganst Falcon...

What the hell are they talking about..?!

Noone sucks against Falcon, but IMHO he goes neutral with quite a few characters :3

though personally, I think he might go 55:45 on Sonic.

you people say 'lolfalcon'
and if you made a spam thread, then yes, we weren't and shouldn't be nice to you.

But my thread was not a spam thread at all.

And we are not insane. (captain falcon actually has combo's, SH FF Nair>jab, and Dair>Knee say hi)

TKONTK:
you constantly say _____ is punishable

but with what?

And also, alot of the moves you say are punishable are defensive punishing moves, so it's not like they're thrown out there, but more of an "ahh I got hit" or OoS move.

 

[Zeallyx]

Noone sucks against Falcon, but IMHO he goes neutral with quite a few characters :3

though personally, I think he might go 55:45 on Sonic.



TKONTK:
you constantly say _____ is punishable

but with what?

And also, alot of the moves you say are punishable are defensive punishing moves, so it's not like they're thrown out there, but more of an "ahh I got hit" or OoS move.

with arials when baited, or jabs/tilts :3

I understand most moves will be used differently than I listed them, but if they are used like I listed them they are punishable (so also when they are used in defence withou succes)

but I could say the same for falcon :/

 

[Steeler]

knee how many trainers have you ever played

now how many good trainers have you ever played

i'm not claiming to have played any godly falcons becase afaik, there are like 3 but...still. your OP was just looking at the pokemon moves, and it seems like you didn't know what some of them are actually used for

 

[Zeallyx]

knee how many trainers have you ever played

now how many good trainers have you ever played

i'm not claiming to have played any godly falcons becase afaik, there are like 3 but...still. your OP was just looking at the pokemon moves, and it seems like you didn't know what some of them are actually used for

I have played one. just now.

 

[Umpadumpalump]

CF has a lot of good mindgaming options. Also the grab release CG on Squirtle can be very effective, but if their timing is even a little off you can break it with a jab combo.

 

[Bomber7]

Steeler puts up a good point. theres more to than what in in black and white. you need a little experience and actual trial and error from matches. experience helps along the way. and playing only one PT doesnt make everything in your thread right. heres the next question, was he any good? the only "good" CF I've ever played is a guy in LA called testiment. he counterpicked me while I was TL and I made mistakes and got my butt handed to me.

but really? was the PT any good?

 

[Umpadumpalump]

Steeler puts up a good point. theres more to than what in in black and white. you need a little experience and actual trial and error from matches. experience helps along the way. and playing only one PT doesnt make everything in your thread right. heres the next question, was he any good? the only "good" CF I've ever played is a guy in LA called testiment. he counterpicked me while I was TL and I made mistakes and got my butt handed to me.

but really? was the PT any good?

Yes, but he's not used to lag. Whoever he is.

 

[typh]

online lol

 

[Bowser King]

I really don't see PT having a bad matchup against CF. Is there something to this matchup that I don't know

-Bowser King

 

[Zeallyx]

After playing a good PT player, I still think falcon has an advantage.

All falcon has trouble dealing with is bullet seed, flame thrower (and possible follow ups after flame thrower) and maybe rock smash (as a punishment).

The CG on squirtle works really well, and grabbing squirtle isn't too hard imo.

Ivysaur is the hardest of the three, and squirtle the easiest. (wich I didn't expect, but my opponent sometimes knocked me out of the way and used down b to change pokemon as he respawned as squirtle).

In short: I still think falcon has an advantage over PT.

Edit: Bomber7, ask Umpadumpalump if I was a good falcon. He was a good PT

 

[Bomber7]

Yes, but he's not used to lag. Whoever he is.

lol online. trhats an automatic fail on this discussion. If we either got a perfect no lag vid or an ofline vid of a "decent" PT by our standards gettring his butt handed to him by Knee or one of you high ranked CF's then I might consider rethinking the match up. But you would have to do it to not just one "decent-good-great" PT but to alot of us. Thatg is truly the only way I'd consider revising the match up.

since im too lazy to go back and fix my spelling errors, -5 for me for each one you see.

 

[Zeallyx]

lol online. trhats an automatic fail on this discussion. If we either got a perfect no lag vid or an ofline vid of a "decent" PT by our standards gettring his butt handed to him by Knee or one of you high ranked CF's then I might consider rethinking the match up. But you would have to do it to not just one "decent-good-great" PT but to alot of us. Thatg is truly the only way I'd consider revising the match up.

revising? you can't tell me you are in a big advantage if any >_>
and I'm willing to play all who want just message me your fc and I'll add you and brawl you asap

(can't brawl tonight, but def tommorrow.)
and if you say wifi doesn't count..that's kina nonsense imo, but in that case, I don't know how we could 'revise' this matchup..

 

[Bowser King]

After playing a good PT player, I still think falcon has an advantage.

All falcon has trouble dealing with is bullet seed, flame thrower (and possible follow ups after flame thrower) and maybe rock smash (as a punishment).

The CG on squirtle works really well, and grabbing squirtle isn't too hard imo.

Ivysaur is the hardest of the three, and squirtle the easiest. (wich I didn't expect, but my opponent sometimes knocked me out of the way and used down b to change pokemon as he respawned as squirtle).

In short: I still think falcon has an advantage over PT.

Edit: Bomber7, ask Umpadumpalump if I was a good falcon. He was a good PT

I'm I the only one who disagrees with squirtle being easy to grab? I think it's one of the harder chaingrabs to pull of as I usually see squirtle in the air and when he's on the ground a well timed jab and ftilt make shielding a bit harder to time.

-Bowser King

 

[Magik0722]

I dont understand is why these PT players are acting as if their somehow superior, even though CF has been consistantly doing better than PT in tournaments

 

[Bowser King]

I dont understand is why these PT players are acting as if their somehow superior, even though CF has been consistantly doing better than PT in tournaments

This is a matchup discussion, not a tournament >_>

-Bowser King