Legend of Zelda Archive: Theory Thread

[Tacel]

I went back and read the story in the Majora's Mask manga and there's an author's note on the page before the story that says that the writers wrote the legend as an add on the the first chapter and that they wrote it while the game was being made. The only made that legend based off of the demo of the game.

Anyway, for those who have not fully read the story, if sort of goes like this:
There is a monster that lives alone in a forgotten wasteland. The land is very strange. The air is neither moving nor still. The beast's armor can grant wishes. Warriors come to try to steal the armor to grant wishes for themselves, but the monster eats them. One day, a traveler comes. All he brings is a bag, a feather in his hair, and armor. He asks the monster if he may rest there for a while. The beast tells the traveler that he is probably just another brave warrior who wishes to steal the armor and grant wishes. The traveler says that he has never heard of such a legend. The monster tells the traveler how many warriors have come in search of the armor, but he has eaten them all. The traveler says that he just wants rest. The monster recognizes that the traveler hopes for sleep. He realizes all the hope that he had taken away from the people he had eaten. The monster asks for time, so the traveler takes a drum out of his bag. he starts a beat, and tells the monster to dance. He dances for three days. On the forth day, the monster dies. The traveler takes his feather, which turns into a knife. He cuts off a piece of the armor and begins to carve something. A mask. The Majora's Mask. The traveler does this to keep the monster's power safe inside the mask. No one will feel threatened by it. The monster may sleep eternally within the mask.

That's pretty much it. I apologize if I told the story wrong in any way. I believe that that's right.


Fierce Deity is either a deus ex machina to help you beat Majora or something more with a story behind it.
I hope there's more to Fierce Deity and I think that there is.

Also,

The Adult Link Mask was originally developed as the fourth transformation mask in the game. Near the end of development, the developers changed this mask to the Fierce Deity's Mask in order to add variety to the transformation, but still maintain an older version of Link

I thought that might help somehow.

 

[Kingdom Come]

By the way can we change the title from Lake Hylia to Fierce Deity?

 

[Tacel]

By the way can we change the title from Lake Hylia to Fierce Deity?

I don't think they will unless there's an article written about it in the OP.

 

[Spire]

The manga is not canon.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Just quoting myself in the bolded part.

Spire, your opinion on the underlined?

Just quoting my quote, Spire care to respond?

 

[Phantom7]

The only reason Fierce Deity Link looks anything like Link is simply because Link is wearing the mask. The same is true for the Deku, Goron, and Zora Links.

 

[Spire]

Just quoting my quote, Spire care to respond?

So the origins of the Fierce Deity Mask...

I literally have no idea as there is no mention of it anywhere in the games. Though, if we assume that the FDM is Termina's equivalent to Ganon (due to the presence of a Triforce, a crescent moon, and the red and blue markings), then we might assume that the Gerudo [pirates] again had something to do with it. But there's absolutely no proof whatsoever. Though to support the Ganon theory, I'll quote Zelda Wiki:

Though the mask's history is never elaborated upon in the game, it is implied, through what is said by the likes of Tatl, and the fact that Majora itself gave Link the mask, that the mask was created by a deity far stronger than Majora, and that Majora could possibly have given the mask to Link in an effort to destroy them both. The Fierce Deity's evil may be even more dark than that which resides in Majora's Mask, as Majora calls him "the true bad guy", though this may just be a lie or exaggeration on the part of the insane Majora, and that Majora considers itself a hero.

And now unrelated to the Ganon theory, here is another quote:

Because the other transformation masks contained the spirit of someone, (the Deku Mask generally believed to be the Deku Butler's son, the Goron Mask being Darmani, and the Zora Mask being Mikau) it can be assumed that the Fierce Deity's Mask also contains someone's soul. Due to its name, it is possible that the spirit inside the mask is a god. In fact, the Fierce Deity bears a partial resemblance to the Dark Interlopers who later became the Twili in Twilight Princess. It could perhaps be that the Fierce Deity was a war god that the interlopers worshiped before they were banished to the Twilight Realm. Since he would have aided his worshipers during their war against the other races of Hyrule, he too would have been punished. In his case, the Goddesses sealed him away in a mask.

Now that last part goes along with the theory that the Dark Interlopers were Ikana (as we are discussing in the A Debate to the Past thread). In Twilight Princess, the Lanayru "vision" about the Dark Interlopers shows that Link and three Dark Links comprise the four, but that is because we are seeing it from Link's point of view. Though because Link and Fierce Deity are so similar in appearance (as we have seen FD), imagine if it was Fierce Deity accompanied by three Dark Links who comprised the Dark Interlopers. Fierce Deity led the tribe who used Majora's Mask (the other three interlopers), so both FD and Majora would have attacked Hyrule for the Triforce, but were stopped by the three Goddesses who sealed FD in a mask and banished both it and Majora's Mask back into Termina, while the other Dark Interlopers were banished into the Twilight Realm (to separate the forces).

OR, the leading Dark Interloper used Fierce Deity's Mask, as depicted with Link in the Lanayru vision (still not explaining its origins), while the others used Majora's Mask. Link and Fierce Deity may actually be counterparts who become one during the events of Majora's Mask.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

So you mean that Majora detests FD because FD used it's powers and failed?

 

[Spire]

So you mean that Majora detests FD because FD used it's powers and failed?

According to that one theory, yes. I think Majora wanted them both destroyed, and in their immortal mask forms, they could not be. So perhaps Fierce Deity is the villain and Majora the hero. Perhaps Majora wanted to destroy Termina so that it could rebuild under new conditions without the two superpowers who plague the land.

 

[Jim Morrison]

What role does the Mask Salesman play in that all then?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

According to that one theory, yes. I think Majora wanted them both destroyed, and in their immortal mask forms, they could not be. So perhaps Fierce Deity is the villain and Majora the hero. Perhaps Majora wanted to destroy Termina so that it could rebuild under new conditions without the two superpowers who plague the land.

Why both of them?

Two superpowers are Majora and FD? Why would Majora want itself to be destroyed if it's the good guy?


Guus, what role does the masked salesman play in MM? It's vague, and unexplained. you can't really make a discussion out of that.

edit: the mirror shield in MM is found in a part of the castle of ikana

By trading them items that they long for, Link works his way through the Well and finds the Mirror Shield. Using this, he finds an exit from the well leading to the grounds of the Ancient Castle of Ikana.

relation between ikana and MM/FD?

 

[Spire]

What does the Mirror Shield have to do with MM/FD? The Mirror Shield reflects the architecture in Stone Tower Temple, that's for sure.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Mirror shield has obvious connections to Gerudo. If it's in Ikana castle, doesn't the castle have something to do with Ganon and in turn MM/FD. Nvm the Mirror shield looks different in MM

Besides, you're ignoring my questions again

 

[Spire]

Sorry about that, the Mirror Shield comment totally threw me off. Well, MM knew it would be destroyed with the fall of the moon, yes? Might as well bring out Fierce Deity so it too can be destroyed.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

So Termina is a mirror of Hyrule, no?
Then what is Hyrules counterpart of Termina's Majora's Mask? The Fused Shadow? The Fused Shadow is not known to hold an entity inside of it.

 

[Spire]

If Hyrule looked in a mirror, would it see Termina? No. It would see Hyrule. Termina is an alternate 'Hyrule', created as an accidental byproduct of the Goddesses upon ascending to the 'heavens'. Imagine twins separated at birth, raised in completely different families with completely different lifestyles, languages, cities—even countries—and all. That is the kind of relation that Hyrule and Termina have.

 

[Tacel]

This is what I think:

Majora lures the Skull Kid to steal the Happy Mask Salesman's precious mask. Majora's Mask. The evil spirit within it, Majora, convinces Skull Kid to do it's bidding. Why Skull Kid? Majora is looking for a boy named Link. Link, at that time, was looking for his lost friend. A fairy named Navi. Skull Kid had a fairy that looks a lot like Navi. Link went in search for the fairy he thinks is Navi, but is really a Skull Kid's fairy named Tatl. Majora uses the thought of Navi to bring Link to Temina. Why does Skull Kid obey? Majora tells Skull Kid that he will get his greatest desire. His four best friends back, the giants that had left him. Majora gets Skull Kid to steal Epona and the Ocarina of Time from Link, along with cursing him and leading him into Termina. Why did Majora do this? Majora could tell that Link had courage. It could tell that this boy was the Hero of Time. Majora knew that Link would would work to get his items back. So, Majora brings down the moon to fall on Termina and destroy it. Majora knew that it wouldn't destroy Termina, though. It believed in Link. He saved Hyrule from Ganondorf, he can save Termina from Majora. Link would stop the moon. Majora knew that Link will battle Skull Kid on top of the Clock Tower on the final day to retrieve the Ocarina of Time. Link would then go back in time to the first day. Having the power of time on his side, Majora knew that Link could retrieve the four giants that it had sealed away. Majora wanted to weaken Link (it did this by making him go through dungeons to get the giants), so that, in the end, Majora could destroy Link (sadly) along with Fierce Deity's spirit within the mask. This whole plan revolved around the Fierce Deity mask. Majora wanted to get rid of it, so that it could not do harm. In the end, Majora believed that Link would make it to the moon to fight Majora. It would also abandon Skull Kid and form itself into a stonger being, because he was no use to Majora's plans and he would be stronger for the battle. Majora would then give Link the Fierce Deity mask. When they battle, Majora knew that Link would wear the mask to turn into Fierce Deity Link for the battle. There would be a wearer for the Fierce Deity mask, so they could finally battle. Majora could finally battle to destroy Fierce Deity, even if it meant dieing in the process. In the end, Majora is not really evil, it just wanted an end to Fierce Deity, the real evil.

EDIT: Revised.

 

[Kingdom Come]

You didn't fit the happy mask salesman into that cousin.

 

[Spire]

@ TheAceLucario - nice synopsis. Only immediate flaw is the fact that Skull Kid was not part of the final battle. Majora abandoned him at the clock tower.

 

[Tacel]

You didn't fit the happy mask salesman into that cousin.

@ TheAceLucario - nice synopsis. Only immediate flaw is the fact that Skull Kid was not part of the final battle. Majora abandoned him at the clock tower.

Oops. I'll add on to it.
Any suggestions?

 

[theunabletable]

Skull Kid stumbles upon a nifty mask. Majora's Mask.

Just to be nitpicky here... he doesn't just stumble upon it, he steals it from the Happy Mask Salesman

And is there any evidence for your "theory"?

 

[Tacel]

Just to be nitpicky here... he doesn't just stumble upon it, he steals it from the Happy Mask Salesman

Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking. I'm currently editing it, and I know the whole plot right now. I just need to put it into words.

EDIT: Revised again.

Majora lures the Skull Kid to steal the Happy Mask Salesman's precious mask. Majora's Mask. The evil spirit within it, Majora, convinces Skull Kid to do it's bidding. Why Skull Kid? Majora is looking for a boy named Link. Link, at that time, was looking for his lost friend. A fairy named Navi. Skull Kid had a fairy that looks a lot like Navi. Link went in search for the fairy he thinks is Navi, but is really a Skull Kid's fairy named Tatl. Majora uses the thought of Navi to bring Link to Temina. Why does Skull Kid obey? Majora tells Skull Kid that he will get his greatest desire. His four best friends back, the giants that had left him. Majora gets Skull Kid to steal Epona and the Ocarina of Time from Link, along with cursing him and leading him into Termina. Why did Majora do this? Majora could tell that Link had courage. It could tell that this boy was the Hero of Time. Majora knew that Link would would work to get his items back. So, Majora brings down the moon to fall on Termina and destroy it. Majora knew that it wouldn't destroy Termina, though. It believed in Link. He saved Hyrule from Ganondorf, he can save Termina from Majora. Link would stop the moon. Majora knew that Link will battle Skull Kid on top of the Clock Tower on the final day to retrieve the Ocarina of Time. Link would then go back in time to the first day. Having the power of time on his side, Majora knew that Link could retrieve the four giants that it had sealed away. Majora wanted to weaken Link (it did this by making him go through dungeons to get the giants), so that, in the end, Majora could destroy Link (sadly) along with Fierce Deity's spirit within the mask. This whole plan revolved around the Fierce Deity mask. Majora wanted to get rid of it, so that it could not do harm. In the end, Majora believed that Link would make it to the moon to fight Majora. It would also abandon Skull Kid and form itself into a stronger being, because he was no use to Majora's plans and he would be stronger for the battle. Majora would then give Link the Fierce Deity mask. When they battle, Majora knew that Link would wear the mask to turn into Fierce Deity Link for the battle. There would be a wearer for the Fierce Deity mask, so they could finally battle. Majora could finally battle to destroy Fierce Deity, even if it meant dieing in the process. In the end, Majora is not really evil, it just wanted an end to Fierce Deity, the real evil.

I'll read it over to check if I missed anything.

And is there any evidence for your "theory"?

As for evidence, watch these videos and watch how the fairies and Skull Kid act. It seems planned, and sort of like they want him to attempt to save the giants and Termina. Skull Kid acts like he doesn't want Link him to save anything or anyone. Are they acting? Who knows?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JecuNBqNBY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOcBfzrswnA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcuNRYuvN7Y&feature=related

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Majora lures the Skull Kid to steal the Happy Mask Salesman's precious mask. Majora's Mask.

How can Majora lure someone who he hasn't even ever seen? That seems to go outside of his power in his mask form.

 

[Tacel]

How can Majora lure someone who he hasn't even ever seen? That seems to go outside of his power in his mask form.

I always saw the Majora's mask as the ring in the Lord of the Rings. For example, the Happy Mask Salesman call it, "My precious mask." The ring in Lord of the Rings makes a person, even that don't wear it, to take it and bring it back to Mordor. Of couse, Skull Kid would have had to seen the mask first with the Happy Mask Salesman first, but then Majora connects with Skull Kid and makes him want the mask.

I thought Majora was powerful enough to do that.

 

[Spire]

I always saw the Majora's mask as the ring in the Lord of the Rings. For example, the Happy Mask Salesman call it, "My precious mask." The ring in Lord of the Rings makes a person, even that don't wear it, to take it and bring it back to Mordor. Of couse, Skull Kid would have had to seen the mask first with the Happy Mask Salesman first, but then Majora connects with Skull Kid and makes him want the mask.

I thought Majora was powerful enough to do that.

This is a very good point. HMS as Gollum makes a whole lot of sense actually.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

So I was thinking, what if Link is actually created by the gods?
Let's think about it, most of the time he lives alone or with relatives that are not his father or mother. The only mention of his parents is that his Mother left him with the Deku Tree in OoT.
So I was thinking, as the Gods PROMISED to send a Hero every time there's need for one, what if he is actually... 'created' by the gods?
If he was a gift from the gods, there was surely a mother figure who'd watch after him, so it might've just not even been his true mother in OoT.

Iunno, theory is theory

 

[Spire]

So I was thinking, what if Link is actually created by the gods?
Let's think about it, most of the time he lives alone or with relatives that are not his father or mother. The only mention of his parents is that his Mother left him with the Deku Tree in OoT.
So I was thinking, as the Gods PROMISED to send a Hero every time there's need for one, what if he is actually... 'created' by the gods?
If he was a gift from the gods, there was surely a mother figure who'd watch after him, so it might've just not even been his true mother in OoT.

Iunno, theory is theory

Literally the only thing conflicting with this is that there are two bloodlines: The Hero of Time's, and The Hero of Wind's. Perhaps we could form a theory supporting both your claim, and the in-game facts: that whenever need arises, the Goddesses manipulate life to create Link in a recognizable manner (meaning not from thin air). Kind of like how Darth Plagueis/Darth Sidious manipulated midi-chlorians to create Anakin Skywalker.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I quote:

Hero of Winds

After the valleys of ancient Hyrule are flooded in a deluge, Ganondorf's power is mysteriously tamed for ages before his dark energy begins to be felt over the Great Sea, which is where Link and Aryll live with their Grandmother. Link is given the green tunic and hat on his birthday to commemorate the Hero of Time,[16] but an attack by the Helmaroc King in which his sister is kidnapped starts him on a whirlwind adventure. Link quickly sets sail and acquires the King of Red Lions in his quest to recover Aryll after she is kidnapped by the Helmaroc King and taken to the Forsaken Fortress. Instead of simply rescuing his sister, Link is drawn into a sequence of events that eventually puts the fate of all the islands of the Great Sea in his hands. Once again, Ganon has appeared with limited power. Link is pulled into the conflict between the island inhabitants and Ganondorf's increasing presence as he, with the help of the Wind Waker, races to recapture the ancient power of the Triforce and the Master Sword before Ganondorf's true power is realized.

Eventually the King of Red Lions sees fit to grant Link the title Hero of Winds[17] in honor of his ongoing struggle with the forces of evil.

So it's not really a bloodline, is it? Or is my source incorrect?

 

[Spire]

The King of Red Lions dubs Link "The Hero of Winds". This Link goes on to form a new Hyrule with Zelda as seen in Spirit Tracks, where his bloodline continues with a new Link (and whatever other games that may canonically follow ST). Thus, the Hero of Winds bloodline. The Hero of Time bloodline exists in the Child Timeline, with the Link in Twilight Princess being a blood descendent (as noted by the Hero's Shade). Whatever games follow TP canonically would also be a part of this bloodline.

The ALttP Link is part of a bloodline of Knights of Hyrule, but may or may not be related to the Hero of Time.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Mhm okay.

The one thing we can assume is that Link is essentialy a 'spirit' or 'essence' that's reborn into destined children to save Hyrule. If we assume that Link is an everlasting essence, wouldn't it be similair to Majora? Majora is essentialy an entity trapped inside a mask, and was created (just like how Link is actually created), the difference is that Majora was sealed away.

This is different from the Fierce Deity, who was not created (but born) and is not recreated later on, but rather sealed, just like how Ganon is often sealed, and he is never created or recreated, he was born.

 

[Tacel]

There have obviously been Links that have not been put into games yet. For example, we don't know Zelda for the Wii's Link's story yet. Could there possibly have been a Link we don't know about that lived in Termina before Ocarina of Time Link, and had been on a similar journey as Ocarina of Time Link? Maybe in that adventure in which that Link fights Fierce Deity. Then, maybe, Link seals him into a mask so that he could use Fierce Deity's power, or maybe that's how that Link deals with the bosses in that story (sealing them instead of killing them).

Unlikely, but possible...?

 

[Spire]

The Hero of Men as seen in TMC's intro is obviously a Link we have yet to play as. That alone signifies that there are more Links in Zelda's history—perhaps that Nintendo has even planned out already—that we've yet to play as. Also, the Hero's Shade in TP is an ancestor of TP Link's, but isn't necessarily the Hero of Time. He could be another Link that lived sometime between MM and TP, and even if he were the Hero of Time, there are still other descendents between he and TP Link, at least one of which could be another Link.

 

[Jim Morrison]

HOW did the people in Termina know about the triforce if they are not the same world as Hyrule and thus do not have the same legend?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Well, it is often theorized that, because Termina was made as a fluke by the Godesses, the Godesses decided to watch over Termina. The Terminians dishonored the gods in wedontknowhow (possibly with the stone temple) and the Gods abandoned them. Thus why they have 4 giants, and a lot of their world is based on 4 instead of the usual 3, which represents the triforce.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Yea but then how did they still get exactly the same image of the triforce?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Because originally the Triforce was in the Sacred Realm and not exclusive to Hyrule.

 

[Jim Morrison]

So both Hyrule and Termina knew about the same legend?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Probably, yeah.

 

[Spire]

You know...

I remember posting the following ages back when we only had a single Zelda thread in the Light House, but I think that the entire events of Majora's Mask were completely a dream. It wouldn't be the first, or last time a game could have all been a dream. Link's Awakening—as the title even suggests—is undoubtedly a dream, and Phantom Hourglass may also be an illusion of sorts, given the ending. In Majora's Mask, we begin the game with a sleeping Link riding on Epona in the Lost Woods. We end the game with Link in the Lost Woods also. Also, as we've recently discussed, Majora's Mask is very similar to Alice in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass and The Wizard of Oz. Both depict dreamworlds, and as seen in Oz, Dorothy encounters characters who resemble people she knew in real life, just as Link did in Hyrule.

I'll copy a paragraph from Zelda Wiki supporting this theory:

Some fans believe that just like Link's Awakening, Link's entire adventure could have been an illusion. The fact that at the end, Link goes right back to where he started, supports this theory. This speculation may contribute to yet another speculation that states that the land of Termina does not exist. Some fans believe that there was no reason for Link to leave Hyrule and Princess Zelda, since he hadn't actually become the Hero of Time because he was sent back in time to warn of Ganondorf's evil plans for the future, thus creating the Split Timeline Theory. Those fans believe that Skull Kid never appeared in the Lost Woods and Link continued his search for Navi. This also supports the Hero's Shade theory.

Also, you guys have had recurring dreams, right? When you do, often times you do things slightly different, and are slightly aware of the actions you took in the past when you dreamt it, so you change those up to better the outcome. This is exactly what Link does in Majora's Mask. He has to live through these recurring days where he does things slightly differently every time to finally make it through the nightmare.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

So how did Link actually create the lore of Termina's beginning? Where did he take that from?

And even then, how does it support the hero's shade theory?