Australian Unity Ruleset: Committee Discussion

[Attila_]

There's been a fair bit of controversy regarding the official unity ruleset; Japan want MK, the US wants stages, etc etc. And Australia seems to be caught somewhere in between; not adopting the Unity Ruleset entirely, but taking bits and pieces that seem to fit the community needs. This in itself is not so much of a problem, however, the fact that each state and each TO is enforcing slightly different could potentially cause issues.

And thus, I propose we make our own Unity Ruleset.

Ideally I'd take representatives from each state, preferrably power ranked and long term players, to create a vote of our own.

Obviously we need to decide as a community whether or not to keep MK legal. But also the issue of stages: RC, Brinstar, Frigate, Delphino and even CS can all be considered broken.

So I think we should decide.

What does everyone think?

DONT GIVE OPINIONS FOR BANNING THINGS YET. WE'RE NOT DISCUSSING THAT AT THIS POINT.

 

[earla]

Japanese ruleset.

 

[Dekar289]

neutral: fd, battlefield, fod, dl64, yoshi's story
cp: pk stadium
for teams ban fod and move pk to neutral

 

[Robsta]

Japanese ruleset.

This

10chars

 

[Leisha]

No brinstar and RC and then I'm happy. Well, sort of. There are other things I wanted changed but no one would agree so theres no point of me stating them lol

 

[Invisi]

I agree that we definitely need an Australian Unity ruleset.

I think the first point to be decided would be the legality of MK, because this would have some major effects on the rest of the ruleset. I haven't really been around long enough to have a proper say in the MK debate, so I'll leave that to you guys.

In my opinion, 5 neutral stages works best; 1 2 2 1 is a fairer striking order than can be achieved with other sized neutral lists. I would suggest BF, SV, Yoshi's, Lylat, FD.

Frigate, Delfino, CS aren't really broken, they should be in the CP list. RC and Brinstar are borderline, so discussion is needed there (and the legality of MK would probably influence this). I'm not too fussed about the CP list, as long as PS2 isn't banned =P

The other point of discussion that needs to be brought up is a lgl. If MK is legal, we will need one, but will it be MK only or all characters? If MK is banned, do we need one at all? If so, how much? Would it be different for certain stages? The lgl needs some decent discussion, once we reach an agreement on MK.

 

[Attila_]

not interested in suggesting rulesets right now.

i am more so interested in whether or not we want a collaborative ruleset, and if so, i need to know who should make up the committee.

 

[Leisha]

Well Im agasint, but its considered bias of me to say so.

Everyone who doesnt use rob pit or samus hates the lgl though, so everyone wants a lgl.

@attila
I'd say follow another ruleset, but if you want an australian ruleset you'd want gather most of the current TO's plus top players with proper knowledge. Need it mixed up since TO's can be pretty bais on their own.

 

[asianaussie]

toon link on FD, side-B only

every match

 

[Attila_]

@attila
I'd say follow another ruleset, but if you want an australian ruleset you'd want gather most of the current TO's plus top players with proper knowledge. Need it mixed up since TO's can be pretty bais on their own.

i dont think another ruleset suits what our community wants. if it did, we would have a unified ruleset already.

japan bans stages... do we want to ban them too?
america bans mk... do we want to ban him too?

i don't think the answer is that clear-cut.

 

[Leisha]

That was just my personal opinion since it makes it easier. The community is always wanting different things, but the main thing is if we have this ruleset, will everyone actually follow it? lol.

Dont think SA will since they dont communicate here much and would probably want to follow their own set. Qld is losing their TO and sydney doesnt have tournaments often.

 

[Jei Jei]

If I am a major culprit for not banning MK and causing all of this controversy, I guess we can try an MK ban in Melbourne too...not at DGH though, it's already been decided.

Leisha makes excellent points about NSW and QLD.

 

[Leisha]

I think Kaion is taking over the role for QLD TO. As for sydney, everyone relied on shaya to run and organise all the tournaments. I cant remember his opinion overall, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't holding anything due to time it takes and the stress of running tournaments in general. Also probably busy with life and such.

Someone will need to step up and become the new sydney TO eventually.

IT just makes things awkward is all, and everyone would need to agree with running the ruleset together as I stated before. I think we actually tried this before, but the idea slowly died out.

 

[Invisi]

I agree that we definitely need an Australian Unity ruleset.

Each TO having a different ruleset can really complicate things, especially for OOS players. Having a unified ruleset for the country should be a priority in my opinion, whether we adopt one which already exists, or create our own. It also helps for up and coming TOs, who would not have to create their own ruleset.

Unfortunately, I do realise that agreeing upon said ruleset is easier said than done.

 

[Leisha]

Everyone wants different things, but unless proper discussion is taken place it'll probably never work out between everyone lol.

But I guess it doesnt hurt to ask people, Although I'm pretty sure SA and NSW aren't turning back from unbanning metaknight. (If people want mk to be legalised in this Australian ruleset or whatever.)

 

[Attila_]

Each TO having a different ruleset can really complicate things, especially for OOS players. Having a unified ruleset for the country should be a priority in my opinion, whether we adopt one which already exists, or create our own. It also helps for up and coming TOs, who would not have to create their own ruleset.

Unfortunately, I do realise that agreeing upon said ruleset is easier said than done.

I would like to create a voting system that everyone would agree to follow.

Doing things one at a time. Like:

'Should Brinstar be banned?'
Yes: 70%
No: 25%
Undecided: 5%

Then brinstar would be banned.

It's pretty simple. I don't think many TOs would argue with straight logic.

 

[Dekar289]

democracy =/= 'straight logic'

 

[earla]

japan have proven to be the strongest at brawl in the world

how do people feel about their rulset

 

[Dekar289]

i'd go even further and get rid of pk1 and yoshi's
where are the rest of aus's top brawlers and TOs... ur opinions are needed

 

[Jesmo]

Well, I'm not a TO but I am a very long term player and would be very interested in discussing this and seeing where everyone else is at.

I'm not sure that voting is a great way because people can be very biased. I think you should try to find a group of people in the scene who are willing to be honest and fair, start a group and discuss it from there.

 

[Leisha]

Well, I'm not a TO but I am a very long term player and would be very interested in discussing this and seeing where everyone else is at.

I'm not sure that voting is a great way because people can be very biased. I think you should try to find a group of people in the scene who are willing to be honest and fair, start a group and discuss it from there.

Thats how I felt as well about a voting system too. Only problem with the group was last time it kinda got out of hand with arguments and such and people ragequited lol

 

[Jesmo]

Yeah, I get that. People just need to pull their heads in and debate and discuss without being personal and/or rude.

I feel like certain memebers of the community wouldn't have as much of an issue though. Kaion, Jei, Apollo, Attila, Tibs and Scoot are probably a couple that could get on fine. Of course, I doubt Apollo or any SA player would be bothered. Just an example though.

Basically, just anyone who can keep an open-mind and debate/argue and make decisions fairly.

Anyone who is being antagonist would have to be asked to leave the group or something. Anyway, I should actually add that I like the idea of a unity ruleset but I would see it being a bit of a struggle to have everyone use it. Atleast until it became the norm.

 

[toki]

Put smashball on

/thread

 

[Ghostbone]

I support a unified australian ruleset, and like the idea of a voting system like Atilla said. (would things be banned based on a majority, or some kind of super majority though?)

For the committee you should have the TOs of each region plus the top power ranked players imo.

Edit: I'll ask the rest of SA what they think about this

 

[tedeth]

A unified ruleset is fantastic, in theory.

However, in practice, if a decision was made that someone disagreed with, they wouldn't not argue about it until their fingers were sore from typing. (e.g. Grimbone)

Hell, we've even seen something that should have been unified (i.e. banning of MK) been simply ignored by an entire state.

Unification is the Ganondoef of the scene. You wish it was viable but it's just not gonna happen.


If you're going to make a unified ruleset, I'd be glad to help out, but like many other things of this nature that people have tried to do, I'm not sure it'll work out entirely as planned.

 

[Splice]

Frigates mechanics in regards to gameplay and matchups are **** tier
I am bias as hell towards Castle Siege but I guess you can ban it, i dont mind
Brinstar is trash dont consider it
If you're banning Frigate then ban Rainbow Ride as well, but if you dont ban Frigate I just ask you... please considerate, it's a little worse than Frigate but it benefits a wide array of MUs and adds diversity to a lot of MUs and [bias] It's a ****ing amazing stage to play on [/bias]

Keep MK legal
Banning double MK in doubles would be ok though lol, after watching Apex doubles stream i vomited

(WALL OF TEXT ABOUT LGL)
With MK legal, keep his lgl the same as other characters; creating some random weakness in metaknights game is not a viable way to fix the way he is better than others. It stops him from abusing planking which is good but by giving him a smaller LGL it forces him off the edge faster which in turn makes it harder for him to get back on stage without taking damage from decent and advantaged players who are edgeguarding. I easily go over 80 ledge grabs when i plank with MK (note that i dont scrooge though), but if I dont plank and play normally, my ledge grabs are around 30-40. This is because with MK, if im trying to force someone away from the edge, i will rapidly grab the edge because this helps to spam my fast aerials which helps me recover to the stage. As such, if MK isnt trying to plank, he can potentially grab the edge more than other characters who try to plank, as such, having a lower lgl for him than other characters is ridiculous. I know that a timeout doesnt always occur but that doesnt make this redundant. A game can timeout without planking, even with MK involved. I'd like to note Earl plays a defensive and somewhat passive playstyle, so if I edgeguard him well enough, and then play defensive also, it is highly likely the game could time out anyway and I would win because he would grab the edge more than 25 times in trying to land Uairs or Nairs that hit me away from the edge while I bair and stuff. Anyway, i propose a global lgl same for all characters, 40-50 Im pretty sure would sit well for everyone, i wouldnt mind going higher but I think 40 to 50 is reasonable. I'm pretty adamant on this technicality lol, It's just so unreasonable for MK to have a LOWER lgl than others that it hurts me a lot in the brain.
{END WALL OF TEXT}

Also, If you do end up banning MK, I dont know how i feel about a lgl. I think it should still be there because i am a ****** with game and watch, and jei is also an abomination of a person. So without MK, I reckon a 40-50 lgl would still be nice because playstyles like mine(when I'm playing to win, that is, not playing to style all over the place) and jeis(when he FORCES himself to camp on the edge) should not be supported.

Please don't ban MK though, Victoria this year is still shaping up to be the most active and high level state so I dont find it totally agreeable that we bow to QLD/NSW/SA rulesets when our scene is healthier (QLD seems pretty close to us in terms of number of players though so i guess i sorta understand)

That is all I have to say
I don't care about anything else.

 

[Attila_]

i'd go even further and get rid of pk1 and yoshi's
where are the rest of aus's top brawlers and TOs... ur opinions are needed

definitely want more opinions. particularly from top players.

Yeah, I get that. People just need to pull their heads in and debate and discuss without being personal and/or rude.

I feel like certain memebers of the community wouldn't have as much of an issue though. Kaion, Jei, Apollo, Attila, Tibs and Scoot are probably a couple that could get on fine. Of course, I doubt Apollo or any SA player would be bothered. Just an example though.

Basically, just anyone who can keep an open-mind and debate/argue and make decisions fairly.

Anyone who is being antagonist would have to be asked to leave the group or something. Anyway, I should actually add that I like the idea of a unity ruleset but I would see it being a bit of a struggle to have everyone use it. Atleast until it became the norm.

myself and tibor don't agree on anything. good thing he is even less involved in the scene than i am.

I support a unified australian ruleset, and like the idea of a voting system like Atilla said. (would things be banned based on a majority, or some kind of super majority though?)

For the committee you should have the TOs of each region plus the top power ranked players imo.

Edit: I'll ask the rest of SA what they think about this

not sure about a super majority, it would make things rather messy.

A unified ruleset is fantastic, in theory.

However, in practice, if a decision was made that someone disagreed with, they wouldn't not argue about it until their fingers were sore from typing. (e.g. Grimbone)

Hell, we've even seen something that should have been unified (i.e. banning of MK) been simply ignored by an entire state.

Unification is the Ganondoef of the scene. You wish it was viable but it's just not gonna happen.


If you're going to make a unified ruleset, I'd be glad to help out, but like many other things of this nature that people have tried to do, I'm not sure it'll work out entirely as planned.

ideally we'd get people together who are generally pretty agreeable. i think, for the most part, most of the top players and TOs have similar ideas about what should be in rulesets and what shouldnt (port town). most people will agree on banning stages like RC and brinstar, so they will most likely be a non-issue. other stages, like delphino or frigate, might be a little more contraversional.

and as such, i would like a commitment from all australian TOs to follow the ruleset.

naturally i cant enforce something like this, but if everyone agrees to agree, that would make things easier.

if people want to be difficult and disagree on a majority decision of top players and TOs, then they should probably think about picking up sf4.

@splice: we're discussing about the committee and if we need an actual ruleset itself. don't make arguments just yet. they aren't going to do anything atm.

 

[tedeth]

GJ Splice for posting your actual opinions when that's not what's being discussed.

EDIT: Good plan.
Ultra Elitist Democracy.

If you are PR'd (top 10 only if you want more than 10) you get to be part of a vote to do with banning something. If you aren't, bl get better.

 

[Leisha]

Well for anyone thats actually serious about this, I guess a group could be made.

 

[Mozza]

Hey guise.

As a SA player who none of you has heard of I would like to offer my opinion. The main issue, I think, that should at least remain constant throughout every state is the MK ban. I don't really care about anything else, but it would be nice if the ban was either nation-wide or non-existant. I know there are other important things to consider when constructing a ruleset, but this is big thing.

Second, a super-majority vote works. You can't please everyone, a vote will leave people unsatisfied, but so will any other method. A vote is easy and will please most people.

 

[Splice]

Cheers Ted, I am quite happy with it myself

@Ted/Attila; I got all I really have to say on any issues relating to a Unity ruleset that Attila/people may consider articulated. So now I believe you would know what my votes would be on those stages and MK and stuff, and a part of the reasoning on why (if that helps), I don't feel like it's necessary to have any more involvement in this potential ****fest.

Enjoy
gl hf

 

[earla]

vote is a horrible idea. people who aren't well informed on the issue shouldn't have a say.

 

[Jesmo]

I don't think MK should necessarily have been banned all over the country, Ted. It's a big thing and everyone does have their own opinions. The problem with people saying they want a unity Ruleset is if they don't get their way they are suddenly like "Well, I don't care, I'm not doing that." The MK legality discussion is still veyr open to debate, in my mind anyway.

You and Tibs don't have to agree on things Atilla. The point is that you can (hopefully) control yourselves and aren't antagonistic and childish.

In a comittee, you just want people with open-minds and who aren't set-in-stone about their opinions.
If people are sure that they won't change their mind on any of the issues in the scene, then there really is no point in a comittee because nothing will ever get solved.

Problem is Ted, the top players do know more about the game then other players and can "usually" tell what will be better/more effective for the game. Whatever that may be. Not always of course, or the top players would always agree.

 

[tedeth]

I have no idea what Jesmo is actually arguing with.

Splice ragequit due to his own inappropriate post that I, for one, didn't even read and don't actually intend to. Epic.

Yes Earl, voting is horrible. I suggest smash dictatorship.

 

[Jesmo]

I'm arguing now Ted? Why don't you tell me what your confused about.

 

[Attila_]

EDIT: Good plan.
Ultra Elitist Democracy.

If you are PR'd (top 10 only if you want more than 10) you get to be part of a vote to do with banning something. If you aren't, bl get better.

not sure if you're taking the piss or not.

the internet makes things hard like that.

in any case, i can't think of a better plan. and this is generally how things get done, whether it be running a country or making a video game ruleset.

i don't want everyone to vote because most people aren't active, most people won't be active in 6 months time, and most people don't actually have a good understanding of the metagame. in which case, those that are better at the game, and those that run tournaments, should decide what is best for not only them, but the community as a whole.

unless you have a better idea?

 

[Attila_]

I don't think MK should necessarily have been banned all over the country, Ted. It's a big thing and everyone does have their own opinions. The problem with people saying they want a unity Ruleset is if they don't get their way they are suddenly like "Well, I don't care, I'm not doing that." The MK legality discussion is still veyr open to debate, in my mind anyway.

You and Tibs don't have to agree on things Atilla. The point is that you can (hopefully) control yourselves and aren't antagonistic and childish.

In a comittee, you just want people with open-minds and who aren't set-in-stone about their opinions.
If people are sure that they won't change their mind on any of the issues in the scene, then there really is no point in a comittee because nothing will ever get solved.

Problem is Ted, the top players do know more about the game then other players and can "usually" tell what will be better/more effective for the game. Whatever that may be. Not always of course, or the top players would always agree.

keeping mk legal in certain states is a terrible idea; what if oos players come to a oos tourney? they're screwed.

tibor is uncontrollable. if you saw him lose at bam you'd understand. i don't want to have to deal with that.

 

[tedeth]

I wasn't actually taking the piss.

Lengthy discussion followed by a vote with as many good players as possible with an even spread across states is definitely the best way to go. Maybe not actually 10 per state, but top 5 on a PR maybe?

1 TO and 1 top player is not enough. It's too easily manipulated.

 

[earla]

would you trust the top 5 pr in every state?

 

[Ghostbone]

You could get each state to decide on 5 members to represent them.