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autocancelled aerials
- Thread starter Tyr_03
- Start date
^^^
If you aren't going to give any specific ones that you think aren't autocancellable or list some I missed I can only assume you have no idea what you're talking about and haven't carefully read the thread. Please reread the thread to better understand the concept or provide useful input on any errors I have made so that I can retest.
If you aren't going to give any specific ones that you think aren't autocancellable or list some I missed I can only assume you have no idea what you're talking about and haven't carefully read the thread. Please reread the thread to better understand the concept or provide useful input on any errors I have made so that I can retest.
Samus's Dair does in fact autocancel. Thank you for noticing it. I missed it the first time because I thought I couldn't get the hitbox to come out but it turns out that the move just has a huge window for autocancelling which allows it even when it's used relatively high when compared to other autocancelled moves. I'll add it to the thread.
Fox's Bair does not autocancel. It just naturally has extremely low lag. You can tell there is lag because when he lands after using it near the ground he does the splits for a moment and then gets back up to attack. Using it lower will autocancel it but the hitbox does not come out. There is barely any lag on that move but it is present and cannot be autocancelled.
G and W's Dair definetly doesn't.
Pit's Bair doesn't either. Another case of a move with naturally little lag but it is present and cannot be autocancelled.
The same is true of the IC's bair. I've tested this one a lot and have decided it's just a move with very little lag. You can tell because they fall on their backs for a moment before getting up to do another attack. Not much lag but it's there.
Dedede's and Wario's Nair are the same case. Low lag but no autocancel.
Fox's Bair does not autocancel. It just naturally has extremely low lag. You can tell there is lag because when he lands after using it near the ground he does the splits for a moment and then gets back up to attack. Using it lower will autocancel it but the hitbox does not come out. There is barely any lag on that move but it is present and cannot be autocancelled.
G and W's Dair definetly doesn't.
Pit's Bair doesn't either. Another case of a move with naturally little lag but it is present and cannot be autocancelled.
The same is true of the IC's bair. I've tested this one a lot and have decided it's just a move with very little lag. You can tell because they fall on their backs for a moment before getting up to do another attack. Not much lag but it's there.
Dedede's and Wario's Nair are the same case. Low lag but no autocancel.
If you have any observations to back up some of your claims I'd be happy to look even more closely into them. I've done a lot of testing on these and have a pretty good idea of what is and isn't cancelling. The fact that you thought G and W's Dair could cancel or Dedede's Nair makes me think you're not quite looking for the right thing.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
Doesn't Ganondorf's dair autocancel at some point? I thought it was the key to thunderstorming, or so I've heard.
OR
People are getting the term "autocancel" mixed up with "finishing an aerial animation before you land" and have mislead me.
OR
People are getting the term "autocancel" mixed up with "finishing an aerial animation before you land" and have mislead me.
Earthbound360
Smash Hero
Yeah that's what I thought.
Man, we NEED to fix that definition.
Man, we NEED to fix that definition.
yeah I've changed the name of this thread 3 times already trying to figure out what works best. Autocancel is the most correct term for what it's doing but we might have to go with Stage cancel because so many people are confused by the innaccurate term we've got going around.
Wuss
Smash Champion
basically, forget this post...
gunterrsmash01
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2007
- Messages
- 2,533
cant u autocancel ganon's dair....
Mr.Victory07
Smash Lord
Not a new technique, but atleast you have a list =]
And just so you know, theres a difference between auto-canceled aerials and lagless aerials\
Auto-cancelled= Doing a full jump ect. to finish a move animation before landing, thus no lag. EXamples: Snake's nair and Ganons dair
Lagless aerials: Aerials that have no landing lag, as if they were l-cancelled. Examples: DK's bair, all of Samus' aerials
And just so you know, theres a difference between auto-canceled aerials and lagless aerials\
Auto-cancelled= Doing a full jump ect. to finish a move animation before landing, thus no lag. EXamples: Snake's nair and Ganons dair
Lagless aerials: Aerials that have no landing lag, as if they were l-cancelled. Examples: DK's bair, all of Samus' aerials
wrong: auto-cancel implies something being CANCELLED, which isn't the case when the animation ends before you land.
Lagless just means has no lag, which COULD apply to either, but but since auto-cancel is specific, the more generic term is what should be applied to moves that have to lag if timed properly
read the thread >_<
Lagless just means has no lag, which COULD apply to either, but but since auto-cancel is specific, the more generic term is what should be applied to moves that have to lag if timed properly
read the thread >_<
^^^
Nope definetly not. He falls on his back. Go back and read the thread more carefully.
On the topic of this lagless aerial stuff, the term "lagless aerial" would imply that the move inherently has zero lag without the player having to do anything at all. This would mean you could repeat the aerial in the air over and over with literally no space in between. I guess this could apply to Wario's final smash aerials but let's not get into that.
When you finish a move in the air and then land, you have not "cancelled" anything. The aerial's lag still exists, it just has already passed while you were in the air. This existed in Melee too, we just didn't call it anything because there was absolutely no need to. It's just called using an aerial. Duh.
The term L-cancel (lag cancel) is used in Melee because the lag from an aerial is actually reduced from what it normally would be by touching the ground and pressing the L or R button. It was essentially the same in Smash 64 as well only it cancelled all of the aerial's lag and you pressed Z. However in Brawl we do not have to press any buttons. Touching the stage within a certain window of the animation of an aerial automatically cancels the rest of the animation and the lag of that aerial. We did nothing except touch the ground. Hence the aerial "autocancelled."
Somehow, terms used in Brawl got terribly out of hand early on. Things like the DLX hitcancel, inkdropping, wavebouncing, thunderstorming etc. made it into our vocabulary before we stopped to think "oh wait, this name doesn't accurately explain what's really happening and will make things far more confusing later on." Maybe it's because we had so many noobs entering the boards at once. Maybe it's because people wanted to make a name for themselves without thinking about how pointless it really is. Maybe some of us just have a sick obsession with making things sound "cool" (using the word "wave" to describe every technique does not make it cool!) But it's past time that things like this get cleared up.
In conclusion, finishing an aerial in the air is not autocancelling, it's called using an aerial intelligently. Thank you.
Nope definetly not. He falls on his back. Go back and read the thread more carefully.
On the topic of this lagless aerial stuff, the term "lagless aerial" would imply that the move inherently has zero lag without the player having to do anything at all. This would mean you could repeat the aerial in the air over and over with literally no space in between. I guess this could apply to Wario's final smash aerials but let's not get into that.
When you finish a move in the air and then land, you have not "cancelled" anything. The aerial's lag still exists, it just has already passed while you were in the air. This existed in Melee too, we just didn't call it anything because there was absolutely no need to. It's just called using an aerial. Duh.
The term L-cancel (lag cancel) is used in Melee because the lag from an aerial is actually reduced from what it normally would be by touching the ground and pressing the L or R button. It was essentially the same in Smash 64 as well only it cancelled all of the aerial's lag and you pressed Z. However in Brawl we do not have to press any buttons. Touching the stage within a certain window of the animation of an aerial automatically cancels the rest of the animation and the lag of that aerial. We did nothing except touch the ground. Hence the aerial "autocancelled."
Somehow, terms used in Brawl got terribly out of hand early on. Things like the DLX hitcancel, inkdropping, wavebouncing, thunderstorming etc. made it into our vocabulary before we stopped to think "oh wait, this name doesn't accurately explain what's really happening and will make things far more confusing later on." Maybe it's because we had so many noobs entering the boards at once. Maybe it's because people wanted to make a name for themselves without thinking about how pointless it really is. Maybe some of us just have a sick obsession with making things sound "cool" (using the word "wave" to describe every technique does not make it cool!) But it's past time that things like this get cleared up.
In conclusion, finishing an aerial in the air is not autocancelling, it's called using an aerial intelligently. Thank you.
wasabicheese
Smash Journeyman
thank you. hopefully this will stop dumb people from spreading retarted names around the board
Magus420
Smash Master
Ok.
As an example, here is the detailed frame data for CF's B-Air in Melee (the only term that doesn't apply for Brawl is the lcancel part):
B-Air
Total: 35
Hit: 10-17
IASA: 29
Auto cancel: <6 21>
Landlag: 18
Lcanceled: 9
Total: 35
This is the total duration of the move's animation in frames (~60/sec).
Hit: 10-17
These are the frames the move hits on (duh).
IASA: 29
The move is Interruptible-As-Soon-As on frame 29 or later with another A attack or jump (you couldn't do it with a B move or dodge before. Maybe you now can in Brawl though).
Auto cancel: <6 21>
There are 2 parts here for this move. One at the beginning and one at the end. Almost every move has this at the end, and most have it at the beginning as well. These numbers can vary a lot from move to move.
<6 Means if you land anywhere up until and including the 6th frame of his B-Air it will autocancel. 21> means landing anywhere after and including the 21st frame it will autocancel.
When a move autocancels it basically means the move cancels out and you do a regular landing animation from the air (only a couple frames and is even IASAable to be shorter in Brawl), instead of the attack's landing and landlag.
The 2nd ending autocancel window is often confused in the Brawl boards with just landing after the 'Total' duration of the move's animation. Both have you land normally, but when you land within the normal animation you get that normal landing due to the ending AC window, not because the move is completely over.
Landlag: 18
This is how much landlag you get from the move normally, when you land during the move's total duration and not within an autocancel window (and in Melee when also not l-cancelled either).
Lcanceled: 9
This doesn't apply to Brawl obviously.
Now, what this thread's list appears to be is a list of moves that have 'Autocancel' windows at the beginning of the move (the <6 in the example), and also have that window extend up to and including the 'Hit' window (since it's mentioned about doing it and also being able to hit them when getting the autocancel).
To answer the people asking if Ganon's D-Air can be autocancelled...
Yes, it can be autocancelled because there is a small autocancel window at the end of that move where if you land you will land normally (like the 21> in the example).
However, within the scope of this list, which is for moves that have AC windows at the beginning that also allow the attack to come out just as you land and still be within that beginning autocancel window so you don't get the attack's landlag...
No, Ganon's D-Air can not be ACed that way.
No need to redefine a long existing term because people use it incorrectly. I suppose a more accurate title for this thread could be:
'Aerials that can be Autocancelled at the startup while still allowing the hitbox to come out before landing'
As an example, here is the detailed frame data for CF's B-Air in Melee (the only term that doesn't apply for Brawl is the lcancel part):
B-Air
Total: 35
Hit: 10-17
IASA: 29
Auto cancel: <6 21>
Landlag: 18
Lcanceled: 9
Total: 35
This is the total duration of the move's animation in frames (~60/sec).
Hit: 10-17
These are the frames the move hits on (duh).
IASA: 29
The move is Interruptible-As-Soon-As on frame 29 or later with another A attack or jump (you couldn't do it with a B move or dodge before. Maybe you now can in Brawl though).
Auto cancel: <6 21>
There are 2 parts here for this move. One at the beginning and one at the end. Almost every move has this at the end, and most have it at the beginning as well. These numbers can vary a lot from move to move.
<6 Means if you land anywhere up until and including the 6th frame of his B-Air it will autocancel. 21> means landing anywhere after and including the 21st frame it will autocancel.
When a move autocancels it basically means the move cancels out and you do a regular landing animation from the air (only a couple frames and is even IASAable to be shorter in Brawl), instead of the attack's landing and landlag.
The 2nd ending autocancel window is often confused in the Brawl boards with just landing after the 'Total' duration of the move's animation. Both have you land normally, but when you land within the normal animation you get that normal landing due to the ending AC window, not because the move is completely over.
Landlag: 18
This is how much landlag you get from the move normally, when you land during the move's total duration and not within an autocancel window (and in Melee when also not l-cancelled either).
Lcanceled: 9
This doesn't apply to Brawl obviously.
Now, what this thread's list appears to be is a list of moves that have 'Autocancel' windows at the beginning of the move (the <6 in the example), and also have that window extend up to and including the 'Hit' window (since it's mentioned about doing it and also being able to hit them when getting the autocancel).
To answer the people asking if Ganon's D-Air can be autocancelled...
Yes, it can be autocancelled because there is a small autocancel window at the end of that move where if you land you will land normally (like the 21> in the example).
However, within the scope of this list, which is for moves that have AC windows at the beginning that also allow the attack to come out just as you land and still be within that beginning autocancel window so you don't get the attack's landlag...
No, Ganon's D-Air can not be ACed that way.
No need to redefine a long existing term because people use it incorrectly. I suppose a more accurate title for this thread could be:
'Aerials that can be Autocancelled at the startup while still allowing the hitbox to come out before landing'
Fogo
Smash Shinigami
I'm pretty sure Dedede's Nair cancels, i do it into utilt all the time.
Fogo: Nope it doesn't. Just has very little landing lag. Tested many many times.
Magus420: Wow I did not know that. That's actually really interesting. Thanks for correcting me. I think I'm gonna keep thread title and explanations the same as they are though because it's a lot simpler but if the question comes up again I will definetly refer people to your post. Yay for people who know what they're talking about.
Magus420: Wow I did not know that. That's actually really interesting. Thanks for correcting me. I think I'm gonna keep thread title and explanations the same as they are though because it's a lot simpler but if the question comes up again I will definetly refer people to your post. Yay for people who know what they're talking about.
Fogo
Smash Shinigami
i guess i was mistaken, my bad.
so are these all the auto cancels that exist or are people still looking?
These are all the ones that I've discovered through testing but I'm not an expert with every character so I could have mistaken one. Someone pointed out one I'd missed with Samus not too long ago and after I tested it more thoroughly I realized my error.
Excel_Zero
Smash Lord
Peach's fair does lag when done pretty close to the ground. You should fix that.
Nice thread btw...
Nice thread btw...
^^
I just retested it. There's a very small window where Peach can have lag on it but it IS in fact autocancellable at the begining. If you use the move from as close to the ground as possible you'll notice that there is no lag at the end. With a little better timing you can get the hitbox out. If you're trying to shorthop fastfall it you're probably hitting the lag window where she falls down. I'm pretty positive on this one. And thanks!
I just retested it. There's a very small window where Peach can have lag on it but it IS in fact autocancellable at the begining. If you use the move from as close to the ground as possible you'll notice that there is no lag at the end. With a little better timing you can get the hitbox out. If you're trying to shorthop fastfall it you're probably hitting the lag window where she falls down. I'm pretty positive on this one. And thanks!
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
how are these characters organized? random
also how is marths uair auto canceled O.o
also how is marths uair auto canceled O.o
They're in order of appearance on the Brawl character select screen except for ZSS I think. Marth's Uair autocancels when you use it close to the ground like any other autocancelled aerial. It actually has a pretty large window of time. Great for comboing but not as good as his Nair.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
ok, I hate to be stupid but i really really want to understand the difference between autocancels and "lagless aerials" and all the terms.
Magus was talking about a < time for aerials and a > time for aerials.
And Ganondorf uses the > time for aerials, i get that.
And this is what i think you have to do to make this list, help me if i'm wrong.
1. You must be an aerial.
2. You must have a < autocancelling time, such as, this move cancels if it lands before 9 frames.
3. You must have a hitbox.
4. That hitbox must appear at some point before the your < autocancelling time is over.
Magus was talking about a < time for aerials and a > time for aerials.
And Ganondorf uses the > time for aerials, i get that.
And this is what i think you have to do to make this list, help me if i'm wrong.
1. You must be an aerial.
2. You must have a < autocancelling time, such as, this move cancels if it lands before 9 frames.
3. You must have a hitbox.
4. That hitbox must appear at some point before the your < autocancelling time is over.
Nasty_Nate
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2006
- Messages
- 1,164
^^^
Try reading the thread and not being such a noob.
popsofctown: yeah you've pretty much got it. You'll notice that if you autocancel an aerial you sort of pop into your neutral standing animation. This is the easiest way to see what's happening. Try autocancelling Samus's Uair because it's extremely obvious. Then you just have to try to repeat what that looks like with other character aerials. If you notice that a character has an animation after the aerial such as falling down or falling on one knee before getting up when you use it very close to the ground you'll know it can't be autocancelled. Each aerial has a different window of time during which it can be autocancelled so you'll have to mess around with it. If you're autocancelling a move, you should be able to jab as quickly as you could had you simply done an empty jump and jabbed. If it's even slightly slower than the aerial has not autocancelled. Hope that helps.
Try reading the thread and not being such a noob.
popsofctown: yeah you've pretty much got it. You'll notice that if you autocancel an aerial you sort of pop into your neutral standing animation. This is the easiest way to see what's happening. Try autocancelling Samus's Uair because it's extremely obvious. Then you just have to try to repeat what that looks like with other character aerials. If you notice that a character has an animation after the aerial such as falling down or falling on one knee before getting up when you use it very close to the ground you'll know it can't be autocancelled. Each aerial has a different window of time during which it can be autocancelled so you'll have to mess around with it. If you're autocancelling a move, you should be able to jab as quickly as you could had you simply done an empty jump and jabbed. If it's even slightly slower than the aerial has not autocancelled. Hope that helps.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
ok, good, I've got it now.
Now i know why Sheik's Nair -> jab is so fast.
Nasty Nate, read threads before you criticize people who know twice as much as you do, or just stay out of the brawl tactical forum and discover everything on your own.
Now i know why Sheik's Nair -> jab is so fast.
Nasty Nate, read threads before you criticize people who know twice as much as you do, or just stay out of the brawl tactical forum and discover everything on your own.